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Post by ArwenFan on May 15, 2014 11:43:25 GMT -5
I absolutely hate that part too...my heart just broke, again (felt like someone grabbed my heart and squeezed it...oh, the pain  ). I'm now starting to think that is probably the main reason I still have major issues with Vincent and Tori together compared to Catherine and Gabe. A part of me still hasn't forgiven Vincent (probably never will) for that whole Tori stuff and if this was real life, I would have an effigy of Vincent that I would periodically set on fire to assuage my anger towards him   I know we are off topic and down the rabbit hole and I will never forgive TPTB for the mess they made of our love story in S2 - so don't take this the wrong way - but we really never saw that "Tori has a connection with Vincent that Cat will never have" thing onscreen... They talked about it, and then I think they figured out - maybe on the cutting room floor- that if they pursued that to it's full extent, especially "romantically" or sexually, it really would sink the VinCat ship. I think TPTB thought the Beast on She-Beast thing was a good idea conceptually but it didn't work when they tried to execute it. I'm not sure why, but I think it had to do with sinking VinCat - like to the bottom of the ocean. It was a terrible idea. If they wanted him to have a "special" connection with another beast - it should not have been a kill two birds with one stone situation, with a romantic or sexual connection. BATB is not the Beast and the She-Beast. Period. I guess I never took that statement literally. They both have altered DNA and can be motivated by sheer animal instinct, so yeah. Cat will never have that connection with Vincent. But Vincent and Tori are not pure animal instinct. They have intellect, will-power, and for lack of a better word souls. Think of it this way...Tori will never have the connection with Vincent that Catherine has, because Vincent never loved her and never felt emotionally connected to her. Catherine is his one true mate. To me the Tori-Vincent connection thing was just more hype.  |
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Post by ArwenFan on May 15, 2014 11:50:47 GMT -5
Here's a short list: Rushing in to save JT from Sam and 'Frank Barnes'. Saving Jacob Sutter (hospital) and Xavier Wright from Sam's beast schemes. Saving Gabe from being beast fodder again. Saving Gabe and Cat from death by explosion. Saving Tess from death by gunfire. Vincent tries to do what is right for someone else without worrying about his safety or comfort. He is selfless. Thank you for the list! I know Vincent tries to do the right thing I just don't consider it as heroic while in the meantime he also kills people. He might become heroic in the future when he can save others without killing. This is just my point of view. Okay. Tomato. To-mah-toe.  Vincent's killing people doesn't bother me at all, since most of them asked for it. When is he gonna knock Gabe off? |
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Post by raniamahd on May 15, 2014 12:26:12 GMT -5
well actually she said (you didn't promise me a future but we are in some kind of relationship) that doesn't imply a full blown relationship just some kind of relationship plus you can clearly see in that scene that hes not really into it. When Tori cane down the stairs you could see his face, it was like oh no, not her again look. Plus right after she said that he didn't say anything and she did ask him if he wanted to go back to Cat and his face said it all. In that whole episode you could see he didn't want to be with her. Even she knew it.. But yeah you are right lets agree to disagree. Not everyone feels that way about the Tori/Vincent relationship but some of you guys do. To me when I watch it and I watch it every single night before I go to bed, I see it as Vincent never wanted to be with Tori and to me its clear in every single episode that aired after VinCat broke up. But that's just my outlook on it so whatever. ok dear , i think we have a misunderstand here and we argue about something we both agree on it ?! if i get your point right you want to say there was no love involved in those triangles ? we all agree on that dear , why do you think we call it ( meaningless sex triangles  ) ? we never even called them ( love triangles) because we know for sure that the four persons involved in those triangles never loved their sex partners ! it was a meaningless sex and every part used the other part in someway ! let me explain how i see those triangles ( i worn you it won't be shortly written  ) first gabrine , would you be surprise if i tell you that i don't think Gabe loves Cat ? i mean sure he likes her ( what is there to don't like ?) as he said to her the first time he saw her ( any guy missed the opportunity to get naked with you would be insane) and V said to her when he saw her for the first time he saw her in S2 (you are smoking hot ) , that is one of the reason Gabe is with Cat but the major reason is that she is his trophy , the prove that all his mistakes were because of the beast DNA and they are forgiven and he is now the perfect guy for any woman even the one he hurt the most , in short words she pleased and satisfied his ego ! and as for Cat she defiantly doesn't love Gabe , she is with him because she is afraid to fallow her hear to lead her to V and get hurt again , it wasn't a coincidence she accepted him the moment Tori dead ? it was her way to cut the road for her heart to go back to Vincent , she was calling Gabe by V's name in the most romantic place because she was drank , and drank people couldn't lie or pretend ! she made love with Vincent after being with Gabe for only a few days while the sex relation suppose to be still hot and the partners in it couldn't keep their hands away from each other and have eyes only for each other ?! but she still had libido for another man as she called it that means even physically Gabe isn't convinced for her , we never hear her talk with Tess about the sex or the intimate time with him , she even called her time with him ( not romantic ) i still remembered her comment to Tess in e1/18 about seeing V shirtless , but with Gabe all the inappropriate comments about him came only from Tess , which makes my wonder if she liked him that much why she didn't take him for herself instead of trying that hard to sell him to Cat ? Cat was with Gabe because of Vincent and left him also because of Vincent ?! everybody knew that even Gabe that is why every time he tried to convince her to stay with him he attacked Vincent saying she is making a mistake and that the relation would never work out ? instead of talking about their relation and try to convince her they had something worthy , because he knew they had nothing at all ? when JT told her how V was trying to redeem himself for her , he said that his beast was the reason they broke up and if he manges to control him for good ? nothing else can keep them apart ? as if Gabe being in the picture isn't a matter at all ?! and it wasn't indeed , so the moment she had the certain feeling in her heart and mind that Vincent wasn't going back to his dark side ever again she dumb Gabe in a second ! so we are agree there was no love here but there was only meaningless sex ? as for toricent , Tori didn't love Vincent either , she needed him , he was all she had as she said , the whole beast things were new to her and no one else but V can understand and help her throw it and Vincent didn't love her too , she was convenient to him , she helped him like an assistant in his hunting and searching for the bad guys and the gem , she keep him accompany without talking about right or wrong or losing control yes there was no love in there but we would be naive if we think they never had sex ?  because they did the next moment Cat left him , she moved in with him the moment he released from hospital , one of the way she was convenient to him was to warm his bed she offered herself to him on a silver plate , give me one reason he would reject her for ? he is that kind of men who drown his sorrow in any warm body available , he did it with Gabriella , he was in love with Alex and still had sex with her , Vincent isn't a normal guy he has a very dangerous dark side , and has two things to protect him from that side : first his bright side and his true good nature , second is Cat because she is his guided light , and then he did lost them both , so he give up completely to his dark side and to Tori , only when he stat to connect to both again ( Cat and his good side ) he start to reject Tori not before , before he give up in every level including sex , but not love ! so there was no love at all on those triangles , we can agree on that dear friend but that doesn't make me feel better about it ( and that we can't agree on it ) because not just in a romantic story about epic love you expect to see the characters consider sex is a way to express their love and to have more meaning for them than just sex ? a causal think they can share with anybody  but also what was the conclusion they got from those triangles ? that there is no grantee in life ? that love risky and make you always friable but i worth it all ? that vincat is stronger and better together than apart ? all of that was already proven in S1 . like SpydancerLovesVincat said that ship is already sailed , but the major problem is they act like S1 never happened , and for us who invested so much in S1 and got attached to the show and to vincat's love story because of the magic of it ? sorry we can't accept or forgive that ! |
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Post by Nelly on May 15, 2014 12:48:11 GMT -5
Thank you for the list! I know Vincent tries to do the right thing I just don't consider it as heroic while in the meantime he also kills people. He might become heroic in the future when he can save others without killing. This is just my point of view. Okay. Tomato. To-mah-toe. Vincent's killing people doesn't bother me at all, since most of them asked for it. When is he gonna knock Gabe off? Tomato? No. When Vincent beasts out and kills that is one of the best parts of the show... When he ripped winsdor's (or whatever his name was) heart out... Wow! I liked that! |
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hopefulromantic
Army Recruit
BATB- A romance novel in a TV show form... What's not to love?
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Post by hopefulromantic on May 15, 2014 13:06:40 GMT -5
I know we are off topic and down the rabbit hole and I will never forgive TPTB for the mess they made of our love story in S2 - so don't take this the wrong way - but we really never saw that "Tori has a connection with Vincent that Cat will never have" thing onscreen... They talked about it, and then I think they figured out - maybe on the cutting room floor- that if they pursued that to it's full extent, especially "romantically" or sexually, it really would sink the VinCat ship. I think TPTB thought the Beast on She-Beast thing was a good idea conceptually but it didn't work when they tried to execute it. I'm not sure why, but I think it had to do with sinking VinCat - like to the bottom of the ocean. It was a terrible idea. If they wanted him to have a "special" connection with another beast - it should not have been a kill two birds with one stone situation, with a romantic or sexual connection. BATB is not the Beast and the She-Beast. Period. I guess I never took that statement literally. They both have altered DNA and can be motivated by sheer animal instinct, so yeah. Cat will never have that connection with Vincent. But Vincent and Tori are not pure animal instinct. They have intellect, will-power, and for lack of a better word souls. Think of it this way... Tori will never have the connection with Vincent that Catherine has, because Vincent never loved her and never felt emotionally connected to her. Catherine is his one true mate. To me the Tori-Vincent connection thing was just more hype. I realize I am part of a small group of people here (and a lot of you are going to nail me to the wall  ), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season").
The unpleasant she-beast thing was checked off the list of obstacles for the series. We didn't have to witness any actual passion scenes between V and T. They spared us having to see anything but the one short kiss that Catherine needed to witness to make the break-up complete (per Bob's ultimatum to Vincent). The physical part of the V/T bit only had to be implied for us to get what had occurred (a couple of bathrobes was all I needed to get it). The "primal connection" that she and Vincent shared was an animal-type thing that Tori wanted to make into a real, lasting relationship like the one V and C have (wishful thinking, and she knew it). Vincent put into it what he could handle without there being anything emotional other than him protecting her. I think he felt sorry for her and her life and wanted to "do the right thing" because she was alone in the world except for him. But we never saw him welcome affection or return it. And he certainly never appeared happy about their "romantic" relationship. You could easily see by Vincent's looks and actions toward Tori that there could and would never be anything more to come of it. If he was sneaking out of bed (which we never saw) to talk to Catherine every night, it's obvious he didn't really want it. And if Catherine was around anywhere physically or otherwise, Vincent was entirely focused on her and Tori just faded into the background like a pesky little sister that follows you around.
Tori knew from the first scene in the woods that she wanted to have a real relationship with Vincent, but she also knew (as soon as she met Catherine) about the connection between C and V that she could never hold up against. She wanted it badly and tried up to the very end to get it, but really admitted it to herself only when it was too late. I think it saved her some of her character when she acknowledged that he and Catherine belong together. It was her way of releasing him from some of the burden he would put on himself for not being able to "save" her. In her defense (I know, right?), she did the right thing and set him free.
I'm also one of the few that only saw Alex as another one of the show obstacles that had to be checked off the list. The "girlfriend/fiancé from his past" wasn't as unpleasant for me as the "she-beast" one. There was only one kiss between them, and it was Alex kissing Vincent when he rescued her. He didn't reciprocate it in a romantic way. He felt bad about leaving her ten years ago without even a goodbye and wanted to make up the past to her. He was trying to do the right thing by her. He briefly thought he'd actually be able to leave his beast life behind and "be free". But the arc ended on a positive note between Vincent, Alex and Catherine. Even IF Alex didn't get killed by that Muirfield guy, she would no longer be a problem to V and C's relationship (CHECK.
As far as the Catherine/Gabe thing, I have another whole theory and don't want to throw that in here too. But I am one of the few that are confident that (what many of you consider) the "love triangle" thing is done and they don't need or want to repeat it. "Who Am I" will be completed in the next 6 episodes and "Who Are We" can begin. It's going to be outside forces from here on out. I can hardly wait!
I guess my point here is that I've read enough romance novels to know that guy/girl meet, fall in love, overcome obstacles and end up together in the end. You're never tempted to skip to the last few pages because you know there will be a happy ending. All the stuff they go through in between is just stuff that makes them even stronger and their love is even more concrete. Yes, the obstacles are extreme, but HELLO, This IS the CW we're talking about! Nothing they have put out so far has been intended to be anything like what they show on the Disney channel. It's not my intention to be mean here, but if that's what you're looking for with this show, you will definitely be disappointed, and maybe this show isn't for you.  To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode. 
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on May 15, 2014 13:34:33 GMT -5
I guess I never took that statement literally. They both have altered DNA and can be motivated by sheer animal instinct, so yeah. Cat will never have that connection with Vincent. But Vincent and Tori are not pure animal instinct. They have intellect, will-power, and for lack of a better word souls. Think of it this way... Tori will never have the connection with Vincent that Catherine has, because Vincent never loved her and never felt emotionally connected to her. Catherine is his one true mate. To me the Tori-Vincent connection thing was just more hype. I realize I am part of a small group of people here (and a lot of you are going to nail me to the wall ), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season").
The unpleasant she-beast thing was checked off the list of obstacles for the series. We didn't have to witness any actual passion scenes between V and T. They spared us having to see anything but the one short kiss that Catherine needed to witness to make the break-up complete (per Bob's ultimatum to Vincent). The physical part of the V/T bit only had to be implied for us to get what had occurred (a couple of bathrobes was all I needed to get it). The "primal connection" that she and Vincent shared was an animal-type thing that Tori wanted to make into a real, lasting relationship like the one V and C have (wishful thinking, and she knew it). Vincent put into it what he could handle without there being anything emotional other than him protecting her. I think he felt sorry for her and her life and wanted to "do the right thing" because she was alone in the world except for him. But we never saw him welcome affection or return it. And he certainly never appeared happy about their "romantic" relationship. You could easily see by Vincent's looks and actions toward Tori that there could and would never be anything more to come of it. If he was sneaking out of bed (which we never saw) to talk to Catherine every night, it's obvious he didn't really want it. And if Catherine was around anywhere physically or otherwise, Vincent was entirely focused on her and Tori just faded into the background like a pesky little sister that follows you around.
Tori knew from the first scene in the woods that she wanted to have a real relationship with Vincent, but she also knew (as soon as she met Catherine) about the connection between C and V that she could never hold up against. She wanted it badly and tried up to the very end to get it, but really admitted it to herself only when it was too late. I think it saved her some of her character when she acknowledged that he and Catherine belong together. It was her way of releasing him from some of the burden he would put on himself for not being able to "save" her. In her defense (I know, right?), she did the right thing and set him free.
I'm also one of the few that only saw Alex as another one of the show obstacles that had to be checked off the list. The "girlfriend/fiancé from his past" wasn't as unpleasant for me as the "she-beast" one. There was only one kiss between them, and it was Alex kissing Vincent when he rescued her. He didn't reciprocate it in a romantic way. He felt bad about leaving her ten years ago without even a goodbye and wanted to make up the past to her. He was trying to do the right thing by her. He briefly thought he'd actually be able to leave his beast life behind and "be free". But the arc ended on a positive note between Vincent, Alex and Catherine. Even IF Alex didn't get killed by that Muirfield guy, she would no longer be a problem to V and C's relationship (CHECK.
As far as the Catherine/Gabe thing, I have another whole theory and don't want to throw that in here too. But I am one of the few that are confident that (what many of you consider) the "love triangle" thing is done and they don't need or want to repeat it. "Who Am I" will be completed in the next 6 episodes and "Who Are We" can begin. It's going to be outside forces from here on out. I can hardly wait!
I guess my point here is that I've read enough romance novels to know that guy/girl meet, fall in love, overcome obstacles and end up together in the end. You're never tempted to skip to the last few pages because you know there will be a happy ending. All the stuff they go through in between is just stuff that makes them even stronger and their love is even more concrete. Yes, the obstacles are extreme, but HELLO, This IS the CW we're talking about! Nothing they have put out so far has been intended to be anything like what they show on the Disney channel. It's not my intention to be mean here, but if that's what you're looking for with this show, you will definitely be disappointed, and maybe this show isn't for you. To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode.
T he only problem is that the "overcoming obstacles" part of meeting the love of your life and finding that special someone is not usually sleeping around with other people. None of it was needed or necessary in terms of overcoming obstacles and ending up together. There are plenty of real life obstacles they face such as the fact that he is a beast, dealing with his loss of memory, what her father did to him, her considerable family issues and murfield conspiracy, where are his lost family members?... Can or will they ever get married, can they procreate... etc. etc. etc. I could go on all day. There is plenty of "meat" for them to explore in the "who am I" department, without having unnecessary sex with strangers nobody cares about. They had plenty of obstacles that did not involve sex triangles with she-beasts or former beasts or anything of the sort. None of that stuff advanced the story AT ALL. It was just a toy for the writers and TPTB to tinker with and play with. So yes, they can "check" it off their list, but for me, I would throw every single one of those episodes in the trash never to be seen or heard of again. Bad TV is what it felt like, creatively unimaginative and disappointing, like someone was flying a teenage melodrama on autopilot. They dumbed it down to attract new and different viewers, and I think it is laughable. But I hated those episodes, and for me they served NO PURPOSE. I would rather watch sex-love-triangles on other shows, because frankly, they do it better. As for the "grand vision for the series" Beauty and the Beast is a love story - supposed to be an "epic love story"- and a romance, not a soap opera. Meaningless sex is just what it sounds like. Pointless and a waste of OUR time. NOT by any stretch of the imagination part of some grander scheme. Tori was an experiment and a plot device, to see if she worked or if it worked to play BATB like a soap opera or a Vampire Diaries type of show, nothing more, nothing less. That is the only grander scheme or bigger picture I can see. |
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hopefulromantic
Army Recruit
BATB- A romance novel in a TV show form... What's not to love?
Posts: 114
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Post by hopefulromantic on May 15, 2014 14:16:07 GMT -5
I realize I am part of a small group of people here (and a lot of you are going to nail me to the wall ), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season").
The unpleasant she-beast thing was checked off the list of obstacles for the series. We didn't have to witness any actual passion scenes between V and T. They spared us having to see anything but the one short kiss that Catherine needed to witness to make the break-up complete (per Bob's ultimatum to Vincent). The physical part of the V/T bit only had to be implied for us to get what had occurred (a couple of bathrobes was all I needed to get it). The "primal connection" that she and Vincent shared was an animal-type thing that Tori wanted to make into a real, lasting relationship like the one V and C have (wishful thinking, and she knew it). Vincent put into it what he could handle without there being anything emotional other than him protecting her. I think he felt sorry for her and her life and wanted to "do the right thing" because she was alone in the world except for him. But we never saw him welcome affection or return it. And he certainly never appeared happy about their "romantic" relationship. You could easily see by Vincent's looks and actions toward Tori that there could and would never be anything more to come of it. If he was sneaking out of bed (which we never saw) to talk to Catherine every night, it's obvious he didn't really want it. And if Catherine was around anywhere physically or otherwise, Vincent was entirely focused on her and Tori just faded into the background like a pesky little sister that follows you around.
Tori knew from the first scene in the woods that she wanted to have a real relationship with Vincent, but she also knew (as soon as she met Catherine) about the connection between C and V that she could never hold up against. She wanted it badly and tried up to the very end to get it, but really admitted it to herself only when it was too late. I think it saved her some of her character when she acknowledged that he and Catherine belong together. It was her way of releasing him from some of the burden he would put on himself for not being able to "save" her. In her defense (I know, right?), she did the right thing and set him free.
I'm also one of the few that only saw Alex as another one of the show obstacles that had to be checked off the list. The "girlfriend/fiancé from his past" wasn't as unpleasant for me as the "she-beast" one. There was only one kiss between them, and it was Alex kissing Vincent when he rescued her. He didn't reciprocate it in a romantic way. He felt bad about leaving her ten years ago without even a goodbye and wanted to make up the past to her. He was trying to do the right thing by her. He briefly thought he'd actually be able to leave his beast life behind and "be free". But the arc ended on a positive note between Vincent, Alex and Catherine. Even IF Alex didn't get killed by that Muirfield guy, she would no longer be a problem to V and C's relationship (CHECK.
As far as the Catherine/Gabe thing, I have another whole theory and don't want to throw that in here too. But I am one of the few that are confident that (what many of you consider) the "love triangle" thing is done and they don't need or want to repeat it. "Who Am I" will be completed in the next 6 episodes and "Who Are We" can begin. It's going to be outside forces from here on out. I can hardly wait!
I guess my point here is that I've read enough romance novels to know that guy/girl meet, fall in love, overcome obstacles and end up together in the end. You're never tempted to skip to the last few pages because you know there will be a happy ending. All the stuff they go through in between is just stuff that makes them even stronger and their love is even more concrete. Yes, the obstacles are extreme, but HELLO, This IS the CW we're talking about! Nothing they have put out so far has been intended to be anything like what they show on the Disney channel. It's not my intention to be mean here, but if that's what you're looking for with this show, you will definitely be disappointed, and maybe this show isn't for you. To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode.
T he only problem is that the "overcoming obstacles" part of meeting the love of your life and finding that special someone is not usually sleeping around with other people. None of it was needed or necessary in terms of overcoming obstacles and ending up together. There are plenty of real life obstacles they face such as the fact that he is a beast, dealing with his loss of memory, what her father did to him, her considerable family issues and murfield conspiracy, where are his lost family members?... Can or will they ever get married, can they procreate... etc. etc. etc. I could go on all day. There is plenty of "meat" for them to explore in the "who am I" department, without having unnecessary sex with strangers nobody cares about. They had plenty of obstacles that did not involve sex triangles with she-beasts or former beasts or anything of the sort. None of that stuff advanced the story AT ALL. It was just a toy for the writers and TPTB to tinker with and play with. So yes, they can "check" it off their list, but for me, I would throw every single one of those episodes in the trash never to be seen or heard of again. Bad TV is what it felt like, creatively unimaginative and disappointing, like someone was flying a teenage melodrama on autopilot. They dumbed it down to attract new and different viewers, and I think it is laughable. But I hated those episodes, and for me they served NO PURPOSE. I would rather watch sex-love-triangles on other shows, because frankly, they do it better. As for the "grand vision for the series" Beauty and the Beast is a love story - supposed to be an "epic love story"- and a romance, not a soap opera. Meaningless sex is just what it sounds like. Pointless and a waste of OUR time. NOT by any stretch of the imagination part of some grander scheme. Tori was an experiment and a plot device, to see if she worked or if it worked to play BATB like a soap opera or a Vampire Diaries type of show, nothing more, nothing less. That is the only grander scheme or bigger picture I can see. Nothing in a CW show seems to be off-limits or necessary. The only thing about BATB is that there kinda needs to be a beauty and a beast. Everything else is fair game. The writers have changed a lot of stuff already because so many of the fans were traumatized by the sex/triangle stuff. But they always said they wanted to try make it a more realistic version of BATB. They made the characters much more like actual people. Every person on the planet is flawed and makes mistakes. So do these characters. Vincent and Catherine both admit out loud that they have both made mistakes (see yummy scene at the end of Catch Me If You Can). In relationships, sex with other people does happen from time to time when coming out of a relationship. The writers made it realistic that way, but downplayed it as much as possible and still get their point across. Neither Vincent or Catherine made love to their respective rebound. It was shown to be just a sex thing, and there wasn't any feeling put into it by either V or C. Did C gush about it and get dreamy looks on her face when she talked to Tess about it? No. Did Vincent show any interest AT ALL about doing the deed with T? No. In fact, he couldn't wait to get out of bed at any opportunity he had.
Yes, I agree it is extreme to pull the sex card on a show about BATB. But again, this is the CW. The female lead on TVD slept with the brother of the "love of her life", for goodness sake! If the show was to air at 3:00 in the afternoon on a family-style channel, that would be ridiculous! It is intended for a more mature audience that better understand that all the bad things that happen in real life are still no match more true, destined, deep, all-consuming love. Yes, a huge part of the viewers were disenchanted and disgusted and appalled and horrified that "they would go there and go that low". No, I personally don't put much emphasis on the actual sex part or the love triangle angle. The point I think they were trying to make is that not even a sexual relationship with other people could destroy the true love these two characters are destined for. They took the most extreme thing that they could dish out for this couple and made it seem like it was nothing compared to how they are meant to be together. After all, they have to fit a lot of good stuff into a 42 minute episode. They don't have the luxury of watering it down so we can more easily absorb "horrific, worst ever" human situations. Sorry, I don't watch this version for nicey-nice. I love the edge they have brought to it. Makes it totally unique and original. It is a show like no other.
I guess we are always going to agree to disagree on this one. And that's OK.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on May 15, 2014 15:03:48 GMT -5
T he only problem is that the "overcoming obstacles" part of meeting the love of your life and finding that special someone is not usually sleeping around with other people. None of it was needed or necessary in terms of overcoming obstacles and ending up together. There are plenty of real life obstacles they face such as the fact that he is a beast, dealing with his loss of memory, what her father did to him, her considerable family issues and murfield conspiracy, where are his lost family members?... Can or will they ever get married, can they procreate... etc. etc. etc. I could go on all day. There is plenty of "meat" for them to explore in the "who am I" department, without having unnecessary sex with strangers nobody cares about. They had plenty of obstacles that did not involve sex triangles with she-beasts or former beasts or anything of the sort. None of that stuff advanced the story AT ALL. It was just a toy for the writers and TPTB to tinker with and play with. So yes, they can "check" it off their list, but for me, I would throw every single one of those episodes in the trash never to be seen or heard of again. Bad TV is what it felt like, creatively unimaginative and disappointing, like someone was flying a teenage melodrama on autopilot. They dumbed it down to attract new and different viewers, and I think it is laughable. But I hated those episodes, and for me they served NO PURPOSE. I would rather watch sex-love-triangles on other shows, because frankly, they do it better. As for the "grand vision for the series" Beauty and the Beast is a love story - supposed to be an "epic love story"- and a romance, not a soap opera. Meaningless sex is just what it sounds like. Pointless and a waste of OUR time. NOT by any stretch of the imagination part of some grander scheme. Tori was an experiment and a plot device, to see if she worked or if it worked to play BATB like a soap opera or a Vampire Diaries type of show, nothing more, nothing less. That is the only grander scheme or bigger picture I can see. Nothing in a CW show seems to be off-limits or necessary. The only thing about BATB is that there kinda needs to be a beauty and a beast. Everything else is fair game. The writers have changed a lot of stuff already because so many of the fans were traumatized by the sex/triangle stuff. But they always said they wanted to try make it a more realistic version of BATB. They made the characters much more like actual people. Every person on the planet is flawed and makes mistakes. So do these characters. Vincent and Catherine both admit out loud that they have both made mistakes (see yummy scene at the end of Catch Me If You Can). In relationships, sex with other people does happen from time to time when coming out of a relationship. The writers made it realistic that way, but downplayed it as much as possible and still get their point across. Neither Vincent or Catherine made love to their respective rebound. It was shown to be just a sex thing, and there wasn't any feeling put into it by either V or C. Did C gush about it and get dreamy looks on her face when she talked to Tess about it? No. Did Vincent show any interest AT ALL about doing the deed with T? No. In fact, he couldn't wait to get out of bed at any opportunity he had.
Yes, I agree it is extreme to pull the sex card on a show about BATB. But again, this is the CW. The female lead on TVD slept with the brother of the "love of her life", for goodness sake! If the show was to air at 3:00 in the afternoon on a family-style channel, that would be ridiculous! It is intended for a more mature audience that better understand that all the bad things that happen in real life are still no match more true, destined, deep, all-consuming love. Yes, a huge part of the viewers were disenchanted and disgusted and appalled and horrified that "they would go there and go that low". No, I personally don't put much emphasis on the actual sex part or the love triangle angle. The point I think they were trying to make is that not even a sexual relationship with other people could destroy the true love these two characters are destined for. They took the most extreme thing that they could dish out for this couple and made it seem like it was nothing compared to how they are meant to be together. After all, they have to fit a lot of good stuff into a 42 minute episode. They don't have the luxury of watering it down so we can more easily absorb "horrific, worst ever" human situations. Sorry, I don't watch this version for nicey-nice. I love the edge they have brought to it. Makes it totally unique and original. It is a show like no other.
I guess we are always going to agree to disagree on this one. And that's OK.
Well I feel the opposite. For me the "so-called" love triangles and sleeping around had the opposite effect, it made it unrealistic, mundane, and completely the opposite of unique. Completely opposite of all the good things you mentioned. It is not edgy, realistic or any other thing. Yes, "real people" make mistakes, and yes occasionally after meeting the love of their life, break-up have rebound sex with the nearest warm body, then get back together. But none of that is particularly interesting, edgy or unique, for me it feels quite the opposite. I would rather see them figure out their stuff without all the bogus drama. When has anyone EVER discovered anything interesting about themselves, in the quest for self discovery by rebounding into the nearest warm body? It does't help with self discovery, individuality, discovering one's personhood or any other thing. A crutch is a crutch is a crutch. Sex for the sake of sex. And meaningless at that. I'm not talking about a "watered down" or "nicey nice" version of the show, I'm talking about one that doesn't put lack of substance and meaningless sex over genuine character and doing the real work to discover oneself. I found S2 to be lacking in any sort of believability factor and EXTREMELY lacking in intrigue or character. Just because the poisoned apple is present, doesn't mean you have to eat it. That is what character discovery is truly about. And from my perspective we saw VERY LITTLE of it in S2, a season that was supposed to be all about the characters discovering themselves. I'm horrified with TPTB that they had no more imagination or creativity than someone working for or writing for the Vampire Diaries. I felt like screaming at them " Come on already, have a little imagination". But I expect to be ENTERTAINED when I watch TV and this was the farthest thing from entertaining. It was disgusting. They couldn't even make any of it interesting, which is probably the worst part of all. It was like watching my favorite show transform itself into a bad soap opera. Agree to disagree? Absolutely. But raise the mundane to the level of edgy and unique? What they did this season on BATB, IMO, was absolutely the opposite of that. In fact go watch Roswell like 10 years ago. Already been done. Probably thousands of times.
But in the end, that is my point exactly, I don't care what network this show is on, if they are going to write and direct it like it is a cheesy CW show like TVD, they have ruined anything that could be construed as good about it. Pissed all over a Picasso. Period. But some like salacious sex. Shock value for the sake of itself. Lure those TVD fans in, but still that plan is not edgy, it's pretty mundane, low brow and disgusting if you ask me. |
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Post by vincat4always on May 15, 2014 17:50:42 GMT -5
I guess I never took that statement literally. They both have altered DNA and can be motivated by sheer animal instinct, so yeah. Cat will never have that connection with Vincent. But Vincent and Tori are not pure animal instinct. They have intellect, will-power, and for lack of a better word souls. Think of it this way... Tori will never have the connection with Vincent that Catherine has, because Vincent never loved her and never felt emotionally connected to her. Catherine is his one true mate. To me the Tori-Vincent connection thing was just more hype. I realize I am part of a small group of people here (and a lot of you are going to nail me to the wall ), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season").
The unpleasant she-beast thing was checked off the list of obstacles for the series. We didn't have to witness any actual passion scenes between V and T. They spared us having to see anything but the one short kiss that Catherine needed to witness to make the break-up complete (per Bob's ultimatum to Vincent). The physical part of the V/T bit only had to be implied for us to get what had occurred (a couple of bathrobes was all I needed to get it). The "primal connection" that she and Vincent shared was an animal-type thing that Tori wanted to make into a real, lasting relationship like the one V and C have (wishful thinking, and she knew it). Vincent put into it what he could handle without there being anything emotional other than him protecting her. I think he felt sorry for her and her life and wanted to "do the right thing" because she was alone in the world except for him. But we never saw him welcome affection or return it. And he certainly never appeared happy about their "romantic" relationship. You could easily see by Vincent's looks and actions toward Tori that there could and would never be anything more to come of it. If he was sneaking out of bed (which we never saw) to talk to Catherine every night, it's obvious he didn't really want it. And if Catherine was around anywhere physically or otherwise, Vincent was entirely focused on her and Tori just faded into the background like a pesky little sister that follows you around.
Tori knew from the first scene in the woods that she wanted to have a real relationship with Vincent, but she also knew (as soon as she met Catherine) about the connection between C and V that she could never hold up against. She wanted it badly and tried up to the very end to get it, but really admitted it to herself only when it was too late. I think it saved her some of her character when she acknowledged that he and Catherine belong together. It was her way of releasing him from some of the burden he would put on himself for not being able to "save" her. In her defense (I know, right?), she did the right thing and set him free.
I'm also one of the few that only saw Alex as another one of the show obstacles that had to be checked off the list. The "girlfriend/fiancé from his past" wasn't as unpleasant for me as the "she-beast" one. There was only one kiss between them, and it was Alex kissing Vincent when he rescued her. He didn't reciprocate it in a romantic way. He felt bad about leaving her ten years ago without even a goodbye and wanted to make up the past to her. He was trying to do the right thing by her. He briefly thought he'd actually be able to leave his beast life behind and "be free". But the arc ended on a positive note between Vincent, Alex and Catherine. Even IF Alex didn't get killed by that Muirfield guy, she would no longer be a problem to V and C's relationship (CHECK.
As far as the Catherine/Gabe thing, I have another whole theory and don't want to throw that in here too. But I am one of the few that are confident that (what many of you consider) the "love triangle" thing is done and they don't need or want to repeat it. "Who Am I" will be completed in the next 6 episodes and "Who Are We" can begin. It's going to be outside forces from here on out. I can hardly wait!
I guess my point here is that I've read enough romance novels to know that guy/girl meet, fall in love, overcome obstacles and end up together in the end. You're never tempted to skip to the last few pages because you know there will be a happy ending. All the stuff they go through in between is just stuff that makes them even stronger and their love is even more concrete. Yes, the obstacles are extreme, but HELLO, This IS the CW we're talking about! Nothing they have put out so far has been intended to be anything like what they show on the Disney channel. It's not my intention to be mean here, but if that's what you're looking for with this show, you will definitely be disappointed, and maybe this show isn't for you. To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode.
You are dead on and so not alone in your POV. I especially agree on the last part. It's a show not a Disney fairytale. And the angst is what makes people coming week after week and when the fairytale happens, its our payoff. Now I wont argue with the people who stopped watching the show cuz they didn't like the show and direction of the show anymore cuz im just losing a battle with them but for me that's what makes it interesting and that they are not afraid to go a little dark, common they have to do it. But people will probably argue with what I have to say next but looking at the ratings the first episode of season 2 already had lower ratings then season 1 and the views more or less stayed stable, so I really don't think people turned away cuz of the Tori/Vincent crap. I feel that the only thing people are having a hard time with is that V slept with Tori and they went in a relationship direction and because they went down that road it doesn't matter what happened whether V was into it or not. To some that was a big no no, cuz its a love story but seriously everyone knows relationships are far from perfect to be a strong couple you have to go through some strong stuff and that was a big part of this whole mission that they can face anything together. Like I said in a previous post they can't do lovey dovey all the time. Who would watch that? Anyways I don't wanna go into a debate with some over this so I just wanted to tell you that I totally agree with you.  |
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Post by feezya on May 16, 2014 3:46:56 GMT -5
I guess I never took that statement literally. They both have altered DNA and can be motivated by sheer animal instinct, so yeah. Cat will never have that connection with Vincent. But Vincent and Tori are not pure animal instinct. They have intellect, will-power, and for lack of a better word souls. Think of it this way... Tori will never have the connection with Vincent that Catherine has, because Vincent never loved her and never felt emotionally connected to her. Catherine is his one true mate. To me the Tori-Vincent connection thing was just more hype. I realize I am part of a small group of people here (and a lot of you are going to nail me to the wall ), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season").
The unpleasant she-beast thing was checked off the list of obstacles for the series. We didn't have to witness any actual passion scenes between V and T. They spared us having to see anything but the one short kiss that Catherine needed to witness to make the break-up complete (per Bob's ultimatum to Vincent). The physical part of the V/T bit only had to be implied for us to get what had occurred (a couple of bathrobes was all I needed to get it). The "primal connection" that she and Vincent shared was an animal-type thing that Tori wanted to make into a real, lasting relationship like the one V and C have (wishful thinking, and she knew it). Vincent put into it what he could handle without there being anything emotional other than him protecting her. I think he felt sorry for her and her life and wanted to "do the right thing" because she was alone in the world except for him. But we never saw him welcome affection or return it. And he certainly never appeared happy about their "romantic" relationship. You could easily see by Vincent's looks and actions toward Tori that there could and would never be anything more to come of it. If he was sneaking out of bed (which we never saw) to talk to Catherine every night, it's obvious he didn't really want it. And if Catherine was around anywhere physically or otherwise, Vincent was entirely focused on her and Tori just faded into the background like a pesky little sister that follows you around.
Tori knew from the first scene in the woods that she wanted to have a real relationship with Vincent, but she also knew (as soon as she met Catherine) about the connection between C and V that she could never hold up against. She wanted it badly and tried up to the very end to get it, but really admitted it to herself only when it was too late. I think it saved her some of her character when she acknowledged that he and Catherine belong together. It was her way of releasing him from some of the burden he would put on himself for not being able to "save" her. In her defense (I know, right?), she did the right thing and set him free.
I'm also one of the few that only saw Alex as another one of the show obstacles that had to be checked off the list. The "girlfriend/fiancé from his past" wasn't as unpleasant for me as the "she-beast" one. There was only one kiss between them, and it was Alex kissing Vincent when he rescued her. He didn't reciprocate it in a romantic way. He felt bad about leaving her ten years ago without even a goodbye and wanted to make up the past to her. He was trying to do the right thing by her. He briefly thought he'd actually be able to leave his beast life behind and "be free". But the arc ended on a positive note between Vincent, Alex and Catherine. Even IF Alex didn't get killed by that Muirfield guy, she would no longer be a problem to V and C's relationship (CHECK.
As far as the Catherine/Gabe thing, I have another whole theory and don't want to throw that in here too. But I am one of the few that are confident that (what many of you consider) the "love triangle" thing is done and they don't need or want to repeat it. "Who Am I" will be completed in the next 6 episodes and "Who Are We" can begin. It's going to be outside forces from here on out. I can hardly wait!
I guess my point here is that I've read enough romance novels to know that guy/girl meet, fall in love, overcome obstacles and end up together in the end. You're never tempted to skip to the last few pages because you know there will be a happy ending. All the stuff they go through in between is just stuff that makes them even stronger and their love is even more concrete. Yes, the obstacles are extreme, but HELLO, This IS the CW we're talking about! Nothing they have put out so far has been intended to be anything like what they show on the Disney channel. It's not my intention to be mean here, but if that's what you're looking for with this show, you will definitely be disappointed, and maybe this show isn't for you. To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode.
Some one mentioned a while back that Batb is a great romantic novel on TV ( edit : i just realised it's also on you avi! ) totally agree with that. but with books i always read the ending first, then i can enjoy the rest of the book in peace  Just like Batb, now i know we got S3 and it's all about "who WE are" i have actually made peace with S2. I was a wreck when there were Gabe n Tori AND not knowing the series will be renew. Now it's just obstacles that they successfully overcome - TOGETHER. Looking forward to rest of S2 and S3. just hoping TPTB remember their "who we are" tagline. very anxious and excited to see what they have in store next for this lovely couple  |
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Post by Nelly on May 16, 2014 4:50:35 GMT -5
I am cleaning up the "Batb official renewed for season 3" thread and moving the related posts here.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on May 16, 2014 5:06:19 GMT -5
no, not really. I am ecstatic we got renewed but even though i think that there were mistakes in season 2 in terms of the way some situations/plots/characters were portrayed/developed i still thoroughly enjoyed it (and i am sure i will love the last six episodes) and so all it does is make me very eager to watch season 3 (whenever it airs lol) - one thing i will say we have a long wait but we can do it together #beastiebuddies |
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Post by Laura on May 16, 2014 5:36:18 GMT -5
no, not really. I am ecstatic we got renewed but even though i think that there were mistakes in season 2 in terms of the way some situations/plots/characters were portrayed/developed i still thoroughly enjoyed it (and i am sure i will love the last six episodes) and so all it does is make me very eager to watch season 3 (whenever it airs lol) - one thing i will say we have a long wait but we can do it together #beastiebuddies I totally agree. I mean sure, the renewal provided a sense of comfort for me, and was a huge relief. I have also enjoyed season two so far, and yes, naturally, there were things I didn't like. But overall, I enjoyed this season completely - again, regardless of the mistakes and stuff. There's just one episode in the whole series, which I will never watch again, and it's 2x10 - "Ancestors". Personal reasons/issues! And yes Anna, long wait - but we are in such great company  |
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on May 16, 2014 5:40:36 GMT -5
no, not really. I am ecstatic we got renewed but even though i think that there were mistakes in season 2 in terms of the way some situations/plots/characters were portrayed/developed i still thoroughly enjoyed it (and i am sure i will love the last six episodes) and so all it does is make me very eager to watch season 3 (whenever it airs lol) - one thing i will say we have a long wait but we can do it together #beastiebuddies I totally agree. I mean sure, the renewal provided a sense of comfort for me, and was a huge relief. I have also enjoyed season two so far, and yes, naturally, there were things I didn't like. But overall, I enjoyed this season completely - again, regardless of the mistakes and stuff. There's just one episode in the whole series, which I will never watch again, and it's 2x10 - "Ancestors". Personal reasons/issues! And yes Anna, long wait - but we are in such great company OMG YES!! THIS IS THE ONE EPISODE I FIND DIFFICULT TO WATCH, THE ONE AND ONLY!! AND PROBABLY FOR THE SAME REASONS however, i took a brave stance and watched it a few days ago and u know what? i think it is a poor episode - yes my reasons for being mortified were not linked to the quality of the episode, but now having rewatched and not being affected at all by vincent and his state i am telling u i did not feel it was a strong episode at all, probably the weakest in season 2 by far...i know not everyone agrees btw. and yes this is the one episode i will not be rewatching i think from season 1 there was one episode i really can't be a...d to rewatch and i have only rewatched the rescue scene which is pretty awesome, yet only a few minutes long - the episode is playing with fire |
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Post by Laura on May 16, 2014 6:21:27 GMT -5
I totally agree. I mean sure, the renewal provided a sense of comfort for me, and was a huge relief. I have also enjoyed season two so far, and yes, naturally, there were things I didn't like. But overall, I enjoyed this season completely - again, regardless of the mistakes and stuff. There's just one episode in the whole series, which I will never watch again, and it's 2x10 - "Ancestors". Personal reasons/issues! And yes Anna, long wait - but we are in such great company OMG YES!! THIS IS THE ONE EPISODE I FIND DIFFICULT TO WATCH, THE ONE AND ONLY!! AND PROBABLY FOR THE SAME REASONS however, i took a brave stance and watched it a few days ago and u know what? i think it is a poor episode - yes my reasons for being mortified were not linked to the quality of the episode, but now having rewatched and not being affected at all by vincent and his state i am telling u i did not feel it was a strong episode at all, probably the weakest in season 2 by far...i know not everyone agrees btw. and yes this is the one episode i will not be rewatching i think from season 1 there was one episode i really can't be a...d to rewatch and i have only rewatched the rescue scene which is pretty awesome, yet only a few minutes long - the episode is playing with fire LOL Honestly, I did try to re-watch it, but just couldn't go through with it  |
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). I'm now starting to think that is probably the main reason I still have major issues with Vincent and Tori together compared to Catherine and Gabe. A part of me still hasn't forgiven Vincent (probably never will) for that whole Tori stuff and if this was real life, I would have an effigy of Vincent that I would periodically set on fire to assuage my anger towards him 
Vincent's killing people doesn't bother me at all, since most of them asked for it. When is he gonna knock Gabe off? 
) ? we never even called them ( love triangles) because we know for sure that the four persons involved in those triangles never loved their sex partners !
)
because they did the next moment Cat left him , she moved in with him the moment he released from hospital , one of the way she was convenient to him was to warm his bed 
but also what was the conclusion they got from those triangles ? that there is no grantee in life ? that love risky and make you always friable but i worth it all ? that vincat is stronger and better together than apart ? all of that was already proven in S1 . like 
), but I see the Vincent/Tori part as just one of the obstacles in the grand vision of the series. Instead of having a "what-if" hanging there throughout the series, the she-beast scenario is addressed and taken care of (CHECK), with as few "painful parts" as possible for us invested and passionate viewers. The storyline needed for Catherine and Vincent to be apart to show how their love is destined. It needed to go to the darkest place in order for them to come back and have their love be even stronger ("They have to earn their love this season"). 
To me, Beauty and The Beast is the ultimate romance novel. That is the sheer genius about this version of BATB. This is why I am so passionate about the show (well, obsessed actually). That's why no matter what they throw at us, I look at the big picture and love every episode. 
Just like Batb, now i know we got S3 and it's all about "who WE are" i have actually made peace with S2. I was a wreck when there were Gabe n Tori AND not knowing the series will be renew. Now it's just obstacles that they successfully overcome - TOGETHER. Looking forward to rest of S2 and S3. just hoping TPTB remember their "who we are" tagline. very anxious and excited to see what they have in store next for this lovely couple 
