The EVERYTHING thread Read-ME #3

[BeastieBoy]

May 13, 2016 20:00:55 GMT -5 pippin said:

People have been complaining about VinCat kiss scenes and lack of any more AMP type scenes post Insatiable and I don't think KK was in a any serious relationship during Season 2.

Maybe it is something simple like Jay smokes and Kk always has gum in her mouth. Maybe for the big make out scenes in season 1, Jay was willing to skip the cigarettes and Kk was willing to take the gum out of her mouth but by the time the second season comes around, they are both like ehh let's just keep our mouths and tongues to ourselves, especially if the frequency increases. Or maybe after 2 seasons, KK and Jay can't generate that same heat because they've become too familiar with each other and now it's like trying to make out with a friend. Sometimes I wonder if that's what happens when shows drag out their romances too long. By the time the actors have to do the loves scenes, they feel like their making out with a family member or worse being sensitive egocentric, artistic types, they've grown to dislike one another.

True in S2 there were no AMP level type scenes. But that was their first time, their big moment. At least S2's VinCat still had chemistry and sizzle. Also, there were still S rated episodes.

However for many, S3's VinCat just felt very flat and IIRC, no S rated episodes at all in S3. Much of it might be blamed on the writers and the lack of a truly meaningful relationship focused story line. But I also feel like another part of it may have been the actors, direction, and perhaps for any number of the possible BTS reasons given by pippin , beautyandtheleast , alwayscrazedbatbfan , and myself.

[Deleted]

Maybe this is going to sound like really harsh and mean, but if you know what great chemistry your girl has with the lead actor and you eventually know what is going to happen in scenes, especially if they play a couple, then I wouldn't want to be there. So, this guy should have left the show. If he's too uncomfortable it's OK, I understand but don't make the others involved uncomfortable too, because this leads to other people like the fans think that maybe the lead actors do have problems with each other, which of course is not true but until the truth is out, it takes time to realize that.

And I am too not asking for any AMP scenes because I think that's never going to happen again. I just want them to have those romantic moments from S1 like the scene in the train in E18 or their first dance, because hands down, those scenes were like the best in my opinion and they didn't even kiss.

[BeastieBoy]

May 13, 2016 22:00:40 GMT -5 @lena said:

Maybe this is going to sound like really harsh and mean, but if you know what great chemistry your girl has with the lead actor and you eventually know what is going to happen in scenes, especially if they play a couple, then I wouldn't want to be there. So, this guy should have left the show. If he's too uncomfortable it's OK, I understand but don't make the others involved uncomfortable too, because this leads to other people like the fans think that maybe the lead actors do have problems with each other, which of course is not true but until the truth is out, it takes time to realize that.

And I am too not asking for any AMP scenes because I think that's never going to happen again. I just want them to have those romantic moments from S1 like the scene in the train in E18 or their first dance, because hands down, those scenes were like the best in my opinion and they didn't even kiss.

I think he did leave the set for much of S4 filming, I believe he went over to Heroes Reborn. Whatever the reason that might have caused VinCat to seem off in S3, fingers crossed that the chemistry will be back in S4.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

The S1 VinCat Subway scene remains one of my series' favorites.  You have Vincent admitting that it was basically love at first sight for him, and during all those years of following after her, all he truly wanted was to meet her.  And you have his admiration of Cat's strength of character and empathy.  And he helps to build her up after such a shocking and brutal end to Evan that occurred right in front of her.  Once again, Muirfield has taken someone important to her and murdered said person directly in front of her without her being able to do anything to stop it.  You have Vincent understanding of this, and he does his utmost to be supportive.  Vincent is clearly willing to endure whatever he has to in order to be with Catherine.  And his reply to her question of how he found her--perfect, romantic, etc.

So the Subway scene proves you don't even have to have kissing to have a truly romantic VinCat moment.  Give me those kind of moments and you can imply the rest, AS LONG AS IT IS CLEAR that LIKE IN THAT S1 subway scene, VinCat are determined to take on the world, if need be, TOGETHER and not snip at one another about what does or does not need to be done (S3). 

And hey, that shower pic ALONE is hot and emplies happy VinCat togetherness.  Amen.  More please.  That takes me to my VinCat HAPPY PLACE.   

[pippin]

Jun 14, 2016 12:53:35 GMT -5 bbatb said:

Jun 13, 2016 18:32:19 GMT -5 pippin said:

I think one of the problems with the show's story from the beginning was by making Muirfield so active and killing Evan and her father, it makes Cat and Vincent seem very selfish. Unless you don't love anyone else, would you date someone if you knew being around them would put all of your friends and family at risk. I thought one of the storylines they could have done was to have Heather call out Cat for being responsible for their father's death. It also would have tied in nicely to those scenes they should have left in the pilot between Heather and Cat. Even when Evan was killed, the subway scene was nice as far as the acting, but the emphasis on stopping Muirfield seemed to be more so that they could be together rather than that Muirfield had killed her mother, Evan, all the soldiers, etc. which was especially odd for someone who was a cop. Much as I enjoyed Fake Date, that scene where they are willing to let Gabe get away with murder, and of a witness Cat promised to protect, as long as he doesn't expose Vincent, was even worse.

The highlighted sentence resonnates with me pippin. I too enjoyed Fake Date when I first viewed it, but on second and third (+) watch the problems with it started to show glaringly. It starts with Catherine saying to Vincent when telling him about G.'s condition: It is only bothering me because I know it will bother you. Huh? What?
It does not bother her to go on a date with a known murderer??? A man who had just murdered and incinerated Jack Watson! I can understand WHY she is doing it, but the dialogue is horrendous. It makes her seem callous AND stupid, especially after she promised Jack to protect him!

Same toward the end where G. is handcuffed to his bed and Catherine launches into this stupid speech about going on this date with an open heart - not a romantic one - but one who tried to find the man he used to be, but that man is gone.

What a crock of horse manure: she knew he was a murderer (several times over in fact), so how can she say that she tried to find the man he used to be? THAT dialogue was really really bad and I have a hard time believing that it came from Sherri and Jennifer.

bbatb answering here since not talking about 405 anymore. Catherine says that line about it not bothering her for Vincent's benefit. She's trying to protect V. and doesn't want him to feel, frankly like he should, which is awful that she's having to go out with Gabe in order to keep Gabe from exposing him. But of course it bothered her, that's why she ended up killing Gabe and why she was so upset when she did it. She killed someone out of ferocious anger not out of necessity. The episode was all about Cat spending so much time worrying about other people, mainly Vincent, that she didn't let herself deal with her own issues. So I thought that was all good stuff. But the fact that she and Tess were ok with letting Gabe get away with murder so long as he didn't expose Vincent, that was like WTF! And I thought the callous lines in that episode were when V was accusing her of defending Gabe and suggesting she and Gabe get costumes and role play. Cat's already having to do something she loathes and V is basically accusing her of enjoying it. But I really like that scene between Gabe and Cat when they are fighting. Love the intensity and you rarely get to see KK play that kind of scene.

[bbatb]

pippin I totally have to disagree with your interpretation of the dialogue here, because Vincent SHOULD be bothered that it does NOT bother Catherine to go out with this murderous slimebag - even if she is just saying it and did not really mean it. Besides, Vincent should KNOW when she is lying - IF she is lying.

Even if I read THIS one wrong, there is still the stupid conversation at the end with her trying to 'find the man G. used to be'.

Agree with her being upset at herself for EXPLODING on G. and almost killing him out of her pent up anger, but I was cheering her on and I did NOT want him to be revived. At that point I did not care who killed him and how he died as long as he was GONE. You know: dead dead forever and ever, never to come back.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

Sometimes we forget that even with a Fantasy show, it is supposed to be based in some sort of "reality."  You HAVE to keep that in mind when talking about "Fake Date."

What I mean by that is the following:

I don't think Cat for one minute was "fine" with letting Gabe "off" for his previous murders.  BUT REMEMBER, until GABE RE-INJECTED himself, there was NO PROOF that he had committed these dastardly deeds when he was previously a beast.  So how could Cat pursue these crimes even if she wanted to?  ESPECIALLY with Gabe at the head of the precinct at the start of S2.  (BUT the idea that an ADA could just come in to the precinct and push the police captain aside and just do whatever he wanted was ridiculous and inplausible to me from the get-go, even though they tried to justify it by saying Gabe headed an "task force."  No outside civilian can just come in and appropriate a whole police department for a "task force," but I digress.)  And with Gabe no longer able to beast out, there was NO PROOF whatsoever to connect him to the crimes.  Remember, even ONE of the murders that Cat tries to look into later in S2 that Gabe supposedly committed claims that Gabe had an AIRTIGHT alliby.  So Gabe KNOWS how to cover his tracks, ESPECIALLY since he had investigated Muirfield for YEARS, yet was seemingly free and unmolested by them.

Plus, even in S1, Gabe arguably "lost" himself to the Beast, as he tries to save Catherine by telling her to lock the door.  BUT once his Beast takes over, he tried to kill whoever he can get to.  Even VINCENT seemed likely to HURT or injure JT and even possibly Catherine due to his "fugue-states" as seen in 106 and 107.  His fellow soldiers encountered the same thing.  So HOW do you really PROVE motive and that Gabe meant to kill his previous victims before Vincent or Cat.  As Gabe says, "I can't control it anymore," and everyone seems to believe that. 

So Cat COULD believe that a Gabe without his Beast WOULD repent his former crimes AND try to PAY for what he has done by giving back.  And the Prison System is SUPPOSED to be all about reformation, so given the circumstances, I can see the others justifying Gabe's actions as an attempt to pay his debt to society. 

GRANTED, Gabe DELIBERATELY tried to set Vincent up and didn't care who died in the process.  BUT the Gabe at the beginning of S2 seems entirely remorseful AND covers for Cat while she basically FALLS APART.  Cat was in NO POSITION at that point to pursue Gabe--she was doing everything she could to find and save Vincent.  It consumed EVERYTHING, and Gabe was in a position of authority AND ALLOWING her to USE HER BADGE to work on Vincent's case. 

So Gabe TOOK ADVANTAGE of the situation.  And Cat probably could have done little to NOTHING about it, even if she wasn't consumed by Vincent.  REMEMBER, due to Joe's obsession, ALL of his cases had been overturned, FORCING THE WHOLE PRECINCT to start the cases over from scratch.  So there were NO RESOURCES to investigate Gabe anyway.  And NO ONE would have believed Cat if she came forward--people would just assume she had cracked up.  WHICH REALLY SEEMED the case at the start of S2, given Cat's actions and extreme and TOTAL grief.

Then you have Gabe GENUINELY risking his life to help Vincent.  So Cat just moves forward.  And then VINCENT seemingly betrays her.  And Gabe looks like the "new Vincent," doing everything he can to make it right.  So Cat DID believe there really WAS a good man.  BUT I believe Gabe was ALWAYS selfish deep down and even unconsciously manipulating the scene to get away with everything and "justify" his former misdeeds by seeming so selfless.  And WANTING to BELIEVE HIS OWN HYPE in order to live with himself.  Until he realizes he just IS evil and no longer feels remorse for anything. 

(In other words, think Smallville's LEX LUTHOR.  Slow descent into madness.  At his core WAS the possibility of a good and decent man.  Which we saw in "Lexmas."  But seeing what a lack of control would cost him, Lex MADE THE KNOWING CHOICE to go evil.  SAME as Gabe.  BUT THERE WAS ENOUGH GOOD to begin with to LET the audience see just WHY Clark and others made such an effort to SAVE LEX---because he COULD be that Lex from "Lexmas."  JUST like Gabe could have been.  BUT BOTH CHARACTERS CHOOSE the wrong path in order to get their selfish interests.)

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

My ABOVE POST makes sense to me ONLY because of seeing this whole thing having played out on SMALLVILLE previously.  It made sense to me because it rather MIRRORS SMALLVILLE exactly ---Lana thinks Lex is TRYING to be good, so she chooses him, especially given Clark's state at the time.  Clark was trying to save her from dying because of him, so lied that he didn't love her.  And Lex seemingly seems SO remorseful and intent on bettering himself and the world.  In BATB, we have KK's new character, Catherine Chandler, choosing Gabe who looks like he is SO remorseful and TRYING to be good, with Vincent seemingly becoming the opposite.

But once Lana is actually WITH Lex, she discovers proof of his former crimes against her and his manipulation, etc.  AND realizes Clark's true powers and worth. 

So the question with BATB becomes just WHY it takes Cat so long to figure out that Gabe is really bad.  BUT REMEMBER, he is seemingly bent on bringing Sam to justice.  And Cat is seemingly mesmerized in 215 by the man that wants to work WITH her to bring the criminals in so he can prosecute.  BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT HIM--Gabe wants to prosecute because GABE wants to look good.  But CAT, being a TRULY DECENT person BELIEVES the best of Gabe WITHOUT seeing his manipulation for what it TRULY is--just getting what GABE wants to make GABE look happy.  And Gabe becomes CONSUMED with triumphing over Vincent, just as Lex REALLY seems to want Lana JUST because Clark loves her AND he is determined to triumph over Clark.

At any rate, THIS POST and the ABOVE POST by me HAVE to be understood in order to make some basic assumptions about "Fake Date."  It is not until THIS EPISODE that Cat TRULY realizes that whatever GOOD there was of Gabe at the beginning of S2, NOTHING is left of that man.  Clark could have said this SAME EXACT line to Lex in S7 forward.  STILL, when Clark goes into Lex's MIND to try to save him, you see little "Alexander," the remaining BIT of GOOD still in Lex, and Clark VOWS TO LOOK FOR THAT GOOD in the outside world JUST AS CAT says to Gabe in "Fake Date."

As to Cat's seemingly being UNBOTHERED by a "date" with Gabe, she was really trying to find a way to END the situation WITHOUT violence AND in a way that would CONVINCE Gabe to let Vincent's "pardon" go through.  And the thing is, she KNEW Vincent had done THAT crime--he really DID kill Windsor at a time when he was still under his programming AND Tori's unwitting influence.  So Cat feels if she just TALKS with Gabe through this "date," and discovers the man she THOUGHT she once knew, then she can get Gabe to call off the dogs.  WHICH WOULD MAKE it all go away.  And Cat thinking Gabe still had SOME good in him and THAT HE HAD DONE WHAT HE DID to protect HER, made Cat believe she could "reason" with Gabe. 

While unplausible, it DOES make sense---Cat really DID believe Gabe WANTED to do good and WANTED to protect her.  BUT THIS EPISODE proves to Cat that Gabe is NOT that man.  Like Lana with the blinkers pulled back about Lex, Cat WAKES UP and realizes that Gabe is JUST like Lex.  Considering KK played both Lana AND Cat, I'm sure this made SOME sense to KK as well, FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. 

Without SMALLVILLE as a template, "Fake Date" wouldn't seem to make sense to me.  But I think that was the angle Kern and his gang were going for.  They needed valid "excuses" for why VinCat would choose others over the love of each one's life.   

[Suzieq ❤️ Beastie]

alwayscrazedbatbfan, I am loving your analysis of Smallville and how BATB relates to those episodes you mentioned. Gabe and Lex both somehow had people give them the benefit of the doubt . I am not so sure either really had that much "good" in them.......only their desire to show they are "good" in order to get what they wanted,...... whether "power" or "love" or "respect/admiration". This is my opinion after watching the episodes and knowing what happened in the end for both Gabe and Lex. Although, I must admit I always thought the way they played Lex was that he did have some "good" but besting his father, Lionel, drove him to play his games and eventually, after Lex killed Lionel, his full Evilness was permanent.

I would have loved to have watched Smallville with you during its airing week after week. Your interpretation and in-depth analysis of the Smallville episodes would have been a fabulous addition to our discussions over at SWEET. We had some awesome fans over there and great discussions. I think you would have enjoyed it too.

[BeastieBoy]

I think there is a difference. Lex started out trying to be good during S1 of Smallville, not wanting to be like his father. He was pretty much a good guy and a good friend to Clark. But little by little, Lex started to fall towards the path of the dark side, until he finally became truly evil. When Lana chose to be with Lex, he was still kind of mix, really more bad by then, but he also had done enough good in the past that he could hide the bad from Lana.

Gabe was different to me. In S1, his attitude of "the end justifies the means", definitely made him start out as a bad guy, but whether that was truly his nature or the nature of the beast within was debatable. I think we were suppose to believe it was the beast. So when he was revived and de-beastified at the start of S2, he was born again as a good person, now remorseful and wanting to make up for his past. So when Cat picked Gabe, at that time, he really was a good guy IMHO. However, it was losing Cat back to Vincent at the end of 216 About Last Night which then put him right back down the path of the dark side.

So by the time of Operation Fake Date, Gabe was undoubtedly bad again. But I think Cat's speech at the end was meant for Gabe "the reborn good person, she thought he once was" to show him how far he had fallen. But it back fired and drove Gabe even more nuts, to where he had no choice but to take the beast serum. Hence, for me, that dialogue was just fine.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

BeastieBoy:

I agree with everything you said.  And I was actually fine with the dialogue in "Fake Death" because of reasons I gave.  You had to see the MORE in Cat's (and Vincent's) words in that episode or you risk misinterpretting what was REALLY meant.  Cat would NEVER have dated Gabe if she DIDN'T think he was a good guy.  And remember, in 213 Gabe came running back into the chapel, knowing about the rigged explosion, to find where Cat was.  I really DO think Gabe "intended" to be good for some small amount of time.  I also BELIEVE he was ultimately evil and rotten to the core.  Bob gave him the "Lex-out," as I will call it, where he could maintain the illusion of helping out when he is really only motivated by evil intent (ie, reporting Vincent's whereabouts to cops).  THAT was the real turning point for Gabe, where he chose evil. 

I believe that there WAS good in Gabe that he CHOSE to ignore, choosing Evil instead for another reason:  Vanessa WAS close to him.  She saw his potential.  Even though he had already been "beasted," she even chose her own privileged friends to be his adoptive parents.  She PERSONALLY saw to his placement.  Bob later tells Cat that Vanessa tried to get the children out, but there seemed to be no other record of another child that she took such an interest in.  The fact that by trying to kill Catherine, Gabe is going after the much-loved child of the person he CLAIMED to love and adore.  Thus choosing to betray Vanessa and her memory in the process, when he claimed to owe her everything.

And as to S1--the VIEWER saw FAR more than Cat and the others did.  We knew that Gabe was planning betrayal and the killing of Vincent.  PLUS, we KNEW that Gabe DIDN'T agree to trade Cat for his girlfriend.  HOWEVER, Vincent went MISSING right after that, and it was VINCENT that took that call.  The girlfriend was then killed.  And Cat was a wreck from Vincent's disappearance.  So there is NO PROOF that ANYONE (meaning JT) even thought to tell Cat about what "HUMAN" Gabe said about NOT trading the two women.  That Gabe was supposedly fine with Vincent killing said girlfriend.  BUT in reality, Gabe could have argued that he was actually CALLING Vincent's bluff, KNOWING that Vincent would never coldbloodedly murder someone. 

So YES, the decisions Gabe made while a desperate human in S1 do NOT excuse his actions in ANY way and rather prove he was evil and rotten to the core.  He CHOSE to murder Vincent to save himself while HUMAN.  But WE THE AUDIENCE were the only ones to see this scene, NOT VinCat.  I mean, when push came to shove, you saw that Gabe would make the decision to save himself NO MATTER WHAT the cost was (at least in S1).  

BUT you also have KERN take over and change everything after S1.  So Gabe is made to be ambivalent, at best, and seemingly remorseful of his past actions, now that he would be beast-free.  BUT Gabe ALWAYS tried to BLAME the beast, RATHER than taking ANY personal responsibility.  BUT Vincent no longer remembered his S1 "Gabe time" until much, much later.  And by then, Vincent was ENCOURAGING Gabe to pursue Catherine, THUS BELIEVING Gabe was truly "good" at the core.  So why bring up past evil baggage? 

Vincent actually trying to do "right" by Cat and make things up to her for his "bad" behavior equally cause the problems.  So S2 has TWO MEN that actually TRY, at some point in the season, to assist Cat and actually PROMOTE her having relationships between one another.  And it ends up working out badly for BOTH, as far as heartache goes.  Because Cat was NOT over Vincent, but his actions seeming to PUSH her into the arms of Gabe just make Cat believe that Vincent IS over her.  So she is desperate to get over him and end the pain.  SIGH. 

Again, the theme of S2 should be "bad decisions all around" and what bad communication/partial communication AND not being HONEST in one's feelings can lead to. 

So it also explains why I often feel the need to defend Cat and her actions.  She had loved with all her heart, despite her traumatic background COUPLED with the layer of BETRAYAL she experienced from loved ones she valued most (mother, father, boyfriend--you get the message).  So she TRIES to love again, thinking the man she HAD loved was 1) more or less dead to her due to what had happened as a result of Bob Reynolds and 2) didn't love her anymore, since he pushed her towards another.  AND she valued that "other" person because she THOUGHT he wanted to save others and seek REDEMPTION.  And Cat IS a forgiving soul that values what she perceives is the good VALUES in the other.  (Again, shades of Lana abound here.)  Which is what ultimately puts her in a BAD place (as it did Lana).

And I have to admit, with BATB going off the air, I have gotten terribly sentimental lately and started re-watching some SMALLVILLE seasons.  I NEVER SAW Season 6, due to having seen prior to Lexmas that they were most likely going down the Lex/Lana highway.  That was EVIDENT in the way Lex became the Lionel-to-his-Lillian in the way he was towards Lana the last episode of S4.  It hit me then, as it also had in the Season 4 episode "Spell," as Isobel was CLEARLY aware of Lex's attraction to Lana.  So I have enjoyed comparing the Lex/Gabe episodes of both series, ESPECIALLY in the way KK plays each character. 

So still not watching S6 SMALLVILLE.  No way, no how.  I experienced the whole BATB S2 thing with horror and shock, although seeing fairly early where they were going with the Gabe/Tori things.  (Although if anyone CAN recommend any S6 episodes that I SHOULD see, with appropriate WARNINGS of Lex/Lana ICKYNESS ahead of time, I might reconsider.  I STILL actively boycott S2's episode of "Ancestors" and 206-209 of BATB for same type of reasons.)      

[bbatb]

Dear alwayscrazedbatbfan, you know how much I like to discuss with you. I admire your way of looking at all sides of an episode, character, plot, etc. and try to pick out something good about it. Me, I cannot, just cannot get over some things that bother me - it IS a stubborn streak in myself. I love this show so much that it bothers me to no end when things don't add up or when the dialogue gets stupid. All my personal opinion of course.

You said:
Plus, even in S1, Gabe arguably "lost" himself to the Beast, as he tries to save Catherine by telling her to lock the door. BUT once his Beast takes over, he tried to kill whoever he can get to. Even VINCENT seemed likely to HURT or injure JT and even possibly Catherine due to his "fugue-states" as seen in 106 and 107. His fellow soldiers encountered the same thing. So HOW do you really PROVE motive and that Gabe meant to kill his previous victims before Vincent or Cat. As Gabe says, "I can't control it anymore," and everyone seems to believe that.

I say:
The second G. replies to Tyler: Whatever it takes, he KNOWS that he will have to kill not only Vincent but ALSO Catherine. He is an ass, but he is not stupid and he knows that Catherine would know who killed Vincent and so would JT and Tess. So, he actually accepted the fact that he would have to kill all 4 of them to cover his tracks. Giving Catherine a key to protect herself was a futile gesture. What was she supposed to do with it when he was already half beasted out prowling the hallway? He knew that he would get through that door within seconds.

About G's S1 victims: the audience knows that he killed the carriage driver Adelson, because we saw the weapon hanging up in his snazzy apartment. The reason he used the morning star was twofold: one he did not want to leave any DNA traces on the body (Evan confirmed that there was NO DNA) and two, he did not even beast out to do it, because IF he had let his medication go down in order to become a beast, there would have been no way back. We have been told that once he goes into beast mode there is no coming down. Unless you want to believe that Tyler was standing behind a bush in Central Park with a tranque gun and the medication at the ready to 'normalize' him after the murder. But the crimes of S1 are not even in question here. In Fake Date G. had just MURDERED AND INCINERATED Jack Watson and Catherine KNOWS that he did it, so how can she be looking for the man he used to be. She already KNEW that that man - if he ever existed - was GONE. Her speech at his bedside - to me - was to justify her going on a date with him - either to herself or to the audience - and to NOT make her look like she used him, when in fact she DID use him and his desire to get back with her. Since he blackmailed her into going out with him, he did not deserve any better, so why placate him with assuring him that she went on this date with an open heart? THAT did not make sense to me. Her threat to expose him should have been enough to keep him in line - no protecting his ego by denying her 'faking it' was needed.

You said:
Then you have Gabe GENUINELY risking his life to help Vincent.

I ask:
When did G. ever risk his life to help Vincent? Are you refering to him meeting Bob on that parking deck? Well, Catherine was watching him with her gun primed, so the risk was not all THAT great.

You said:
So the question with BATB becomes just WHY it takes Cat so long to figure out that Gabe is really bad. BUT REMEMBER, he is seemingly bent on bringing Sam to justice. And Cat is seemingly mesmerized in 215 by the man that wants to work WITH her to bring the criminals in so he can prosecute. BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT HIM--Gabe wants to prosecute because GABE wants to look good. But CAT, being a TRULY DECENT person BELIEVES the best of Gabe WITHOUT seeing his manipulation for what it TRULY is--just getting what GABE wants to make GABE look happy. And Gabe becomes CONSUMED with triumphing over Vincent, just as Lex REALLY seems to want Lana JUST because Clark loves her AND he is determined to triumph over Clark.

I say:
I am asking myself that too: why does it take Catherine so long to become 'normal' and 'our' Catherine Chandler again? How can it be that the woman who stormed out of the Guild after Vincent - the man she LOVED - forbid her to see G., because he was suspicious of him and he wanted to protect her, hang her head and cry and placate G. with sex after he dictates to her that Vincent being around makes him feel crowded or uncomfortable and he wants her to completly cut him out of her life. And even the next day she is all lovey-dovey and promises him to do exactly as he demanded. I hate seeing Catherine being so submissive and accomodating - you call it mesmerized - I call it subservant. I understand that she tried to make the relationship work, but at what cost and WHY was it so important to have THIS relationship? Even if she forgave him for what he tried to do to her and Vincent, how can we believe that she could ever FORGET it?

You said:
As to Cat's seemingly being UNBOTHERED by a "date" with Gabe, she was really trying to find a way to END the situation WITHOUT violence AND in a way that would CONVINCE Gabe to let Vincent's "pardon" go through. And the thing is, she KNEW Vincent had done THAT crime--he really DID kill Windsor at a time when he was still under his programming AND Tori's unwitting influence. So Cat feels if she just TALKS with Gabe through this "date," and discovers the man she THOUGHT she once knew, then she can get Gabe to call off the dogs. WHICH WOULD MAKE it all go away. And Cat thinking Gabe still had SOME good in him and THAT HE HAD DONE WHAT HE DID to protect HER, made Cat believe she could "reason" with Gabe.

I say:
AGAIN: he had just killed Jack Watson - what good was there to be found in G.? There is no way that Catherine can delude herself that G. killed Jack in order to protect her, he killed Jack Watson in order to get away with another murder he committed a year before. At this point, it is clear that G. is a multiple murderer and there is NO good left in him whatsoever.

You said:
While unplausible, it DOES make sense---BUCat really DID believe Gabe WANTED to do good and WANTED to protect her. T THIS EPISODE proves to Cat that Gabe is NOT that man. Like Lana with the blinkers pulled back about Lex, Cat WAKES UP and realizes that Gabe is JUST like Lex. Considering KK played both Lana AND Cat, I'm sure this made SOME sense to KK as well, FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW.

I say:
Catherine already KNEW in COLD CASE that G. is not doing these things to protect her. She says as much when he tells CPT Ward to take her badge away.

Like I said: my take on things.

[BeastieBoy]

Jun 16, 2016 14:19:30 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

So still not watching S6 SMALLVILLE.  No way, no how.  I experienced the whole BATB S2 thing with horror and shock, although seeing fairly early where they were going with the Gabe/Tori things.  (Although if anyone CAN recommend any S6 episodes that I SHOULD see, with appropriate WARNINGS of Lex/Lana ICKYNESS ahead of time, I might reconsider.  I STILL actively boycott S2's episode of "Ancestors" and 206-209 of BATB for same type of reasons.)      

alwayscrazedbatbfan , for someone who references Smallville so much, I can't believe you've never watched S6! 
Yes it's a very tough season for Clana fans having to endure all the Lexana stuff. It pains me still whenever I re-watch it. Having said that, along with parts of S5, S6 was probably the most powerfully emotional season of SV for me. There are some extremely touching and heart breaking Clark/Lana scenes. Moreover, it includes the first time that Lana truly learns about Clark's secret!!! (Not counting S5's Reckoning, since there's a "do over".)

Furthermore, it contains some of KK's most dramatic performances as an actress. Kristin said it was her favorite season.

If you do choose to watch it someday, I really recommend watching the season in its entirety, painful as it maybe. Because there are many elements that build upon one another that provides much of the drama and impact, both good and bad. For me, my favorites from S6 are ep 12 "Labyrinth", ep 13 "Crimson", ep 16 "Promise" (it will leave most first time watchers in tears) and the finale ep 22 "Phantom". But again, you'll need to watch the whole season because there's a lot of build up needed to get the full impact out of these episodes.

One episode that I think could be watched standalone is ep 11 "Justice". It's a fan favorite, as it's kind of the first time the young members of the would be Justice League all come together to fight Lex. (It's only good if you're into the comic book elements of SV.) Labyrinth could also probably be watched standalone, cuz it's in an alternate reality for most of the ep. Neither of these two have that much Lexana in them. Ep 20 "Noir" could also be watched standalone, but I didn't really like that one.

Back to BATB. I won't even start on Ancestors. I know I'm in the far minority here, as I also like that episode a lot more than most.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

BBATB:

Loved your post and appreciate the viewpoint.  I guess that is why I still love S2, even though there was so much that bothered me.  There are so many possible ways to interpret the characters' individual actions, PLUS, you have to often take multiple episodes into context to see the progression of a particular plotline or character development.  (NOT like S3 that seemed bent on making every character act completely different, seemingly out-of-character every episode.)

With the above said, a few more thoughts based on your post.

Like you, I kept wondering WHY Cat tried SO ridiculously hard to maintain a relationship with Gabe.  But the conversation she had with Gabe outside the precinct after the hostage crisis (in 211) was so revealing, at least to me.  (In fact, 211 as a whole said SO MUCH to me about ALL of the individual characters and what was to come.)  Cat has obviously spent a GREAT deal of time wondering WHY her relationship with Vincent failed.  She has obviously been wondering if it was all because of her.  Cat still lacks confidence in so many ways, especially after all that she had failed to know about from her own family radiating outwords.

So at this point in S2, Cat is really questioning EVERYTHING that she has known, PARTICULARLY her relationship AND WHAT WENT WRONG that kept her and Vincent from successfully reconnecting.  And in that conversation with Gabe, she reflects that Vincent has completely CHANGED from who he was before and is no longer the same man she loved.

So Cat is coming from a place of deep grief and loss still.  And Gabe APPEARS so understanding in this episode AND willing to wait for Cat, no matter how long it takes.  Making it clear that Catherine is WORTH the wait (again, reflections of VinCat talking from "Worth" come to mind).  Gabe appears to be the "new Vincent." 

(Don't get me wrong--Like you, I KNOW Gabe NEVER was like Vincent of old--Vincent only murdered to defend others or blindly in Afghanistan due, I believe, to the effect of so many new "beasts" in one place further aggravating the already newly untenable situation.  Gabe KNOWINGLY murdered.  You comment on what Gabe said to his girlfiend.  BUT remember, CAT never heard.  Cat just SEES a seemingly torn Gabe that planned to swap her for Vincent, and a guy that tries to save her by giving her the key.)

By the by, your arguments are INTRIGUING about Gabe ACTUALLY possibly murdering the cab driver as a human, not beast, in order to frame Vincent.  I had never thought about it, quite frankly.  But that IS a level of coldness and callousness that does bear to be kept in mind.  The audience is MEANT to think that Gabe did the murder, based on the task squad and seeing the antique on his shelf.  But supposedly, this murder was one where Gabe had the "solid" story to explain where he really was during the murder.  (Had BATB had endless episodes and seasons, I wish they would revisit this point about what all Gabe REALLY did and the murders he committed, both trying to draw out/hunt down Muirfield AND to bring out Vincent.  There are still questions, as there were with some S2 "witnesses" that could have led to really interesting storylines. . . . Oh well.)

AT ANY RATE, Gabe comforts Cat repeatedly and seemingly knows just what to say (both in 204 and 205's "Reunion").  And yes, I DO believe he risked his life in going to Vincent's boathouse alone in "Hothead" and telling Vincent that he had tried to kill him in the past.  He OWNS his wrong there and seemingly wants to help atone and get Vincent beast-free in order to be with Cat.  (Again, you can question Gabe's REAL deep-down motivations.  He WANTED to believe he was a better man to assuage HIS OWN guilt--to me, it was STILL all about HIM ALONE, in actuality.  Gabe was even deceiving himself.  At least in my opinion.)  And Vincent doesn't quite understand where Cat is coming from AND can't empathize (at this point) with why Cat needs time AWAY from beast-issues.  Vincent can't quite connect while Gabe seems blessed with this ability through both episodes. 

So Cat finds comfort and assurance from Gabe and heartache from Vincent.  And Cat CLEARLY can't get over Vincent and can't keep from dwelling over what went wrong with their relationship, as you see particularly in "Ancestors."  She has ALERTS on her phone still regarding anything Vincent-related and takes on the ridiculously-dangerous undercover case in order to find what DID work for her in the past. 

To ME, the above is why Cat works so HARD to preserve her relationshp wtih Gabe---she doesn't want to believe that she was so deceived about her lover again.  (And ICK ICK YUCK in having to describe Gabe as a lover--I feel I need some HAND SANITIZER, just from typing this post!)  I believe Cat DOESN"T want to admit she has entirely given herself over AND defended a man so completely unworthy of her (or humanity as a whole, quite frankly--after all, look at HOW he treated Tyler, who had done EVERYTHING for the man!). 

You actually HAVE Cat seemingly fall into a true Domestic Violence-styled/ABUSIVE relationship, given Gabe's increasingly manipulative dialogue.  Cat doesn't seem to realize this, truly, until 216 when she confronts Gabe about his "protecting" her AND WHAT THAT IMPLIES--that she cannot protect herself.  AND doesn't have good judgment herself.  WHICH WAS WHAT SHE HAD CONFIDED IN GABE way back in 211.  Gabe is downright verbally abusive to Cat in 214 as he increasingly realizes that he has lost control of Cat.  Gabe ALREADY didn't VALUE her opinion enough to LISTEN to her recommendation in 213 to stay home (and YES, I DID think Gabe risked his life there in order to try to save the fellow orphan, who he identified with.  AGAIN, shades of Gabe and how it ALL HAS TO COME BACK TO HIM, even when trying to save someone.).  Gabe runs right into the fight, when he does NOT have Cat's superior fighting skills or knowledge of how to properly investigate and evaluate a scene.  After all, he is a lawyer, NOT a cop and should know this.  But Gabe thinks he ALWAYS knows best, and he constantly belittles Cat throughout in what he implies that he can do and she can do.

So why does Cat miss this?  Again, she feels so bad for everything that went wrong wtih Vincent and secretly wonders if it was all her fault.  Glimmers of 211.  AND THERE, Gabe BUILT HER UP, because he was motivated at that time OR was really trying to be nice.  We will never really know which, although I suspect a combination of the two. 

And that is the problem SO OFTEN with ABUSIVE relationships---the subtle attempts to ISOLATE the person, to ALLEGE that the person's judgment is COMPROMISED and therefore NOT good enough.  And when the person ALREADY is feeling BAD about themselves and feeling like a FAILURE, as Catherine was, she becomes unfortunately mired in this relationship, until Vincent REMINDS her of what it is like to make decisions for herself AND TO BE RIGHT about those decisions.  It is TELLING when Vincent tells Gabe, "I guess I don't make decisions for Catherine."  Gabe had been increasingly insistent on this--telling Cat who she should see.  BUT Gabe would always subtly make Cat believe that she was doing WRONG by him in the relationship by NOT doing what he wanted.  IT WAS THEN that Gabe would harp on and on about HOW MUCH he had done to EARN her forgiveness---Meaning that it was for THOSE reasons RATHER than for redemption.  Which said EVERYTHING about Gabe's true character.

But Gabe was very good at manipulating--which is why Cat is slow on the uptake here, at least in my opinion.  Gabe hints that if the relationship goes wrong, it is because CAT is not putting in the ATTENTION and devotion that GABE requires.  It has to be GABE's standards, NOT Cat's, even when Cat was working on cases.  AND THAT is another place Cat is VULNERABLE, as we see in "Ancestors"--she let her CAREER go while trying to help Vincent.  THAT is why she is so anxious to take the Feds' case and prove she still has what it takes alone.  And Cat is ATTRACTED to Gabe in this episode BECAUSE he supposedly RESPECTED her right to make HER OWN CHOICES, something Gabe CONTINUALLY tries to curtail from 211 forward.  BUT CAT SAW 210 Gabe and failed to see the ACTUAL Gabe that followed.  So Gabe's insinuations about him and Cat working TOGETHER to take down criminals is SO APPEALING to Cat because she thinks it means that SHE is back at the top of her career game with Gabe supporting her, WHILE GABE means it PRECISELY THE OTHER WAY AROUND.  

Sadly, Cat is unable to see "how far down the rabbit-hole" she has fallen with Gabe UNTIL she has something to compare it with--Vincent.  In 215, Vincent asks Cat to RESPECT HIS CHOICE to go save Xavier AND trusts her to be able to take down Sam ON HER OWN.  He doesn't make her think she is doing things wrong with Sam--he just points out that Xavier, the victim, deserves justice AND to be rescued.  It is NOT just about Gabe being able to prosecute Sam.  AND THAT was Cat's true TURNING POINT, in my opinion.  Vincent CARES about the victim--Gabe just cares about the hug AND HOW IT LOOKS TO THE OTHERS.  By this point in the episode, Gabe deep down knows it is over and his influence on Cat is no longer absolute.  He tries to FORCE her to make a choice, thinking his manipulation will somehow still hold sway.  TRULY, it is Vincent's WILLINGNESS NOT to try to hold onto Cat that makes Cat CHOOSE HIM.  Vincent is willing to let her go if it makes her happy.  He RECOGNIZES HER CHOICE.

(AGAIN, SHADES OF SMALLVILLE abound here--Lex basically DOES go into the subtle manipulation JUST like GABE.  He always "turns it back around" on Lana, same as Lionel did to him.  It culminates in Lex finally hitting Lana.  --While I didn't watch S6 overall, I DID see part of the wedding episode and read about the whole Fake Pregnancy thing.  THAT is what I am talking about above IN SPADES--where Lex deliberately manipulates the situation to get Lana to marry him in the first place and gain control over her.  AND keep her isolated from Clark.

So KK knew ALL ABOUT playing this type of relationship and what it takes to actually wake-up from it.  Much easier with Smallville in finding out that Lex faked the whole thing.  Quick wake up there.  But for CAT, it takes far longer, because Cat is STILL SO WOUNDED from the while Vincent-missing/memory-loss thing.  Like Lana, she was VULNERABLE from seeming betrayal by the person she really DID love.  So made LEX's and GABE'S jobs much easier.)

So hope the above explains WHY I think Cat was SO vulnerable and unable to see what was happening.  AND SHE REALLY did believe Gabe WAS good, so she had reason to look for the man she THOUGHT was once there.  Because she hoped to plead with that person to do THE RIGHT THING, not understanding that Gabe NEVER was that man. 

LAST IMPORTANT POINT--That is WHY "Fake Date" IS powerful to me RATHER than humorous.  Cat IS planning to attempt to "manipulate" Gabe.  BUT BECAUSE she is REALLY good at heart, HER STYLE of manipulation is to TRY to actually LOOK for the good in Gabe AND TO COME AT THE WHOLE THING WITH AN OPEN HEART.  To find the person she THINKS can be SAVED.  Because LIKE VINCENT, she wants to SAVE people, just as Vincent wanted to save Tori.  

The above is why Cat's words still echo with the ring of truth, from Cat's point of view.  By this time, even Vincent has seen completely though his jealousy to KNOW that Gabe is NOT GOOD at all--THIS is why he SO WORRIES for Cat.  He KNOWS Cat can defend herself from violence--it is Gabe's WORDS that have always been the downfall for Cat in the past---because she is a GOOD PERSON that WANTS to believe that a person WOULD want REDEMPTION.  That was one of the things CAT LOVED ABOUT VINCENT from THE PILOT--how BADLY he wants to be the GOOD MAN he was before that HELPED OTHERS. 

Hopefully, I have explained my thoughts better about Cat and WHY I think she (and Lana before her) did what they did.     

[bbatb]

alwayscrazedbatbfan I understand everything you are saying here and I can - on some level - even agree with most of it. Especially in regards to the slimebag ADA - he so did everything for his own glory, in order to look good in the eyes of the others. I never believed that he wanted to save Vincent for Catherine - he admitted as much in Cat & Mouse to Vincent.

Everything you are saying is probably what the writers meant for us to think or understand, or maybe not, they are really not very clear many times, but THAT is not really my gripe:

The thing I will never forgive the CW and Brad Kern - much that they care, really, for MY opinion - is that he went this particular route. That he had Vincent break Catherine's heart, that he made Vincent cheat on Catherine by kissing Tori, that he made Vincent physically attack her first with the push and later by causing her car to crash without a second's thought if she is dead or alive. That he made Catherine insecure about her choice of relationships AGAIN, that he made her subservant to G., because she did not want to have another failure on her hands.

This show was supposed to be about a strong, modern woman - with some adorable and charming flaws - who, at age 30 has been around the block a few times and has been knocked around a few times - in essence Catherine from S1, whom we fell in love with and the love of her life, her epic love, whom we also fell in love with. All of a sudden, we are presented with 'imposter' Catherine of S2. Vincent got an excuse - to a certain extent mind you - because conveniently they gave him amnesia, but the change in Catherine was too extreme to be explained with trauma, insecurity and what not. I know the writers were told that this was the way they were going to go and maybe they did their best of trying to explain it to us. But IMO they did not succeed.

And I still think that BK is insane or off his medication when he is trying to sell to us that a man can try to kill a woman and she NEVER has some kind of memory/flashback of this dramtic and traumatic event, except ONCE and only when she finds herself in the correct setting that would promote such a memory (the dungeon). I understand that they wanted to portray Catherine as a forgiving soul, but how can she put the attempted murder behind her just like that and not THINK about it. THAT is totally unrealistic.

And now we had better put this discussion to sleep. It was great, but it is hard NOT to fall into rant mode and it just brings back bad feelings of S2. Thanks for taking the time to answer my long post with another long post. You are the best.