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Post by Savana_ Dying for season3! on Oct 28, 2014 3:04:51 GMT -5
Cat Never cheated on Vincent. She cheated on Poor Gabe with Vincent. I feel sorry for Gabe,she was the flip flopper here. Poor Gabe! and once again, Cat's one & only storyline revolved on being the beast supporter.sigh.... Poor Gabe? Really dan? I think you're in the far minority on this one. Oh come on Beastieboy!!! Don't you see how good and deserving of Cat's love was Gabe?? Can't you see it? He was all gentle, supportive, respectful, self-confident of Cat's love for him, a fair player with his "competition", always honest and transparent in his intentions and wishes, he respected Cat's space after her breakdown with Vicent and didn't push her to make a choice in a very weak moment for her... Sigh... which woman wouldn't LOVE to have a man like that in her life?? Vincent is just a poor alternative to Gabe and Cat made the wrong decision choosing him... Sigh... no #heforshe hashtag this time? oh well...
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rose
Army Recruit
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Post by rose on Oct 28, 2014 5:53:41 GMT -5
I liked the ending of this episode. Like many I do not advocate for cheating but in this situation I think all the 3 people involved knew what was going on and were not exactly blindsided. Gabe was acting really desperate and pushy in this episode. If he had taken a step back and allowed everyone to breathe maybe Cat may not have ended up with Vincent at the end of that episode. I think it was arrogant on his part to send Cat to cut all ties with V. That was not his decision to make. Cat is a grown woman and can decide for herself. If Gabe was not happy with the way things were I think the decent thing would have been for him to step aside and give Cat time to sort herself out. If it was some other innocent nice guy who had no idea what was happening I would have felt sorry for him but I can't help but think Gabe had that coming, mostly because he was pushy and he ended up being the one falling off the cliff. I also can't help but think that that was a make or break moment for Vincat. If Cat had walked out of the boathouse they might have not talked with V again because at the rate Gabe was going before she knew it Cat would have found herself married to Gabe and Gabe would have pushed everyone else out of the way and calling shots on Cat's life and everyone would have ended up miserable.
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Post by raniamahd on Oct 28, 2014 7:32:14 GMT -5
I liked the ending of this episode. Like many I do not advocate for cheating but in this situation I think all the 3 people involved knew what was going on and were not exactly blindsided. Gabe was acting really desperate and pushy in this episode. If he had taken a step back and allowed everyone to breathe maybe Cat may not have ended up with Vincent at the end of that episode. I think it was arrogant on his part to send Cat to cut all ties with V. That was not his decision to make. Cat is a grown woman and can decide for herself. If Gabe was not happy with the way things were I think the decent thing would have been for him to step aside and give Cat time to sort herself out. If it was some other innocent nice guy who had no idea what was happening I would have felt sorry for him but I can't help but think Gabe had that coming, mostly because he was pushy and he ended up being the one falling off the cliff. I also can't help but think that that was a make or break moment for Vincat. If Cat had walked out of the boathouse they might have not talked with V again because at the rate Gabe was going before she knew it Cat would have found herself married to Gabe and Gabe would have pushed everyone else out of the way and calling shots on Cat's life and everyone would have ended up miserable. yes say it again please ! you don't know how much i was disappointed on Cat every time he did that and she just took that in silent ?! i was like ( come on Cat ! you really would take that from him ? where the speech about no one can allow or forbid you from anything ? no one but you make your decisions ?! ) i was even more astonished or shocked when she kept recycle Gabe's speech about doing things by the book because that is the different between human and beasts ! not just because that was hypocrite after she asked V to do exactly that in the previous ep ? i mean how exactly did she expect him to hunt and /or kill Sam's beasts by the book ? he didn't have a gun or badge or worked in the law system in general ? all he had was his beastly power and last time i checked using this to apply justice would give him a bullet in his gut ! -- but what shocked me the most was that she didn't even bother to use her own words instead of Gabe's ?! now what you don't even have your own words ?! did the cat steal your tongue like they said ?! so when she ignored Gabe and go with V after Sam in ep16 and V didn't miss the chance to smirk in his face about him doesn't made decisions for Cat = neither you Gabe ! not anymore i was like : yeah finally she is back and as for vincat made love before she officially broke up with Gabe ? i don't feel even the tiniest thing of pity for poor Gabe as you said it he had this coming and he totally deserved it , that's what you get if you push a woman to be with you while you know for sure she is still in love with another guy ! and think that controlling and manipulative both of them to do them apart would work and get you the girl ! the only thing i am sorry about it is that he didn't know about their night ! yeah he deserved to had someone smirk about it in his face
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Post by raniamahd on Oct 28, 2014 7:49:41 GMT -5
Poor Gabe? Really dan? I think you're in the far minority on this one. Oh come on Beastieboy!!! Don't you see how good and deserving of Cat's love was Gabe?? Can't you see it? He was all gentle, supportive, respectful, self-confident of Cat's love for him, a fair player with his "competition", always honest and transparent in his intentions and wishes, he respected Cat's space after her breakdown with Vicent and didn't push her to make a choice in a very weak moment for her... Sigh... which woman wouldn't LOVE to have a man like that in her life?? Vincent is just a poor alternative to Gabe and Cat made the wrong decision choosing him... Sigh... no #heforshe hashtag this time? oh well... but you forgot to mention that poor Gabe didn't deceive her by talking about getting justice to Mirfield victims to have the chance to anatomy one of those victims and get his organs to save himself ! he didn't also put anyone she loves in dangerous to save himself or killed innocent human to save himself--again !! wow poor Gabe wasn't selfish at all ! he really believe in (altruism) -- ah and finally he didn't try to slay her with a broken glass when he finally lost ! yeah what kind of woman doesn't want a man like that in her life ? a sane one maybe ?!
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Post by raniamahd on Oct 28, 2014 7:50:06 GMT -5
sorry double post by mistake -- again
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Post by Savana_ Dying for season3! on Oct 28, 2014 8:31:09 GMT -5
Oh come on Beastieboy!!! Don't you see how good and deserving of Cat's love was Gabe?? Can't you see it? He was all gentle, supportive, respectful, self-confident of Cat's love for him, a fair player with his "competition", always honest and transparent in his intentions and wishes, he respected Cat's space after her breakdown with Vicent and didn't push her to make a choice in a very weak moment for her... Sigh... which woman wouldn't LOVE to have a man like that in her life?? Vincent is just a poor alternative to Gabe and Cat made the wrong decision choosing him... Sigh... no #heforshe hashtag this time? oh well... but you forgot to mention that poor Gabe didn't deceive her by talking about getting justice to Mirfield victims to have the chance to anatomy one of those victims and get his organs to save himself ! he didn't also put anyone she loves in dangerous to save himself or killed innocent human to save himself--again !! wow poor Gabe wasn't selfish at all ! he really believe in (altruism) -- ah and finally he didn't try to slay her with a broken glass when he finally lost ! yeah what kind of woman doesn't want a man like that in her life ? a sane one maybe ?! yep! of course, the list is quite long! Basicly is all about choosing a man who makes you become a shadow of yourself or one who brings the best out of you... I don't have doubt about my choice
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Oct 28, 2014 9:20:52 GMT -5
sorry have not read most comments yet but just have to say that this is in my top 3 list of season 2 episodes. absolutely loved the episode - the interactions between vincat, the intensity, the originality of a few scenes (car scene for example), the feels in the end scene, the feels in the xavier saving scene. i also loved the flow of the episode and it is one of those i have rewatched many times
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rose
Army Recruit
Posts: 133
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Post by rose on Oct 28, 2014 9:36:07 GMT -5
I liked the ending of this episode. Like many I do not advocate for cheating but in this situation I think all the 3 people involved knew what was going on and were not exactly blindsided. Gabe was acting really desperate and pushy in this episode. If he had taken a step back and allowed everyone to breathe maybe Cat may not have ended up with Vincent at the end of that episode. I think it was arrogant on his part to send Cat to cut all ties with V. That was not his decision to make. Cat is a grown woman and can decide for herself. If Gabe was not happy with the way things were I think the decent thing would have been for him to step aside and give Cat time to sort herself out. If it was some other innocent nice guy who had no idea what was happening I would have felt sorry for him but I can't help but think Gabe had that coming, mostly because he was pushy and he ended up being the one falling off the cliff. I also can't help but think that that was a make or break moment for Vincat. If Cat had walked out of the boathouse they might have not talked with V again because at the rate Gabe was going before she knew it Cat would have found herself married to Gabe and Gabe would have pushed everyone else out of the way and calling shots on Cat's life and everyone would have ended up miserable. yes say it again please ! you don't know how much i was disappointed on Cat every time he did that and she just took that in silent ?! i was like ( come on Cat ! you really would take that from him ? where the speech about no one can allow or forbid you from anything ? no one but you make your decisions ?! ) i was even more astonished or shocked when she kept recycle Gabe's speech about doing things by the book because that is the different between human and beasts ! not just because that was hypocrite after she asked V to do exactly that in the previous ep ? i mean how exactly did she expect him to hunt and /or kill Sam's beasts by the book ? he didn't have a gun or badge or worked in the law system in general ? all he had was his beastly power and last time i checked using this to apply justice would give him a bullet in his gut ! -- but what shocked me the most was that she didn't even bother to use her own words instead of Gabe's ?! now what you don't even have your own words ?! did the cat steal your tongue like they said ?! so when she ignored Gabe and go with V after Sam in ep16 and V didn't miss the chance to smirk in his face about him doesn't made decisions for Cat = neither you Gabe ! not anymore i was like : yeah finally she is back and as for vincat made love before she officially broke up with Gabe ? i don't feel even the tiniest thing of pity for poor GabeĀ as you said it he had this coming and he totally deserved it , that's what you get if you push a woman to be with you while you know for sure she is still in love with another guy ! and think that controlling and manipulative both of them to do them apart would work and get you the girl ! the only thing i am sorry about it is that he didn't know about their night ! yeah he deserved to had someone smirk about it in his face Even Tess was starting to see that Cat was losing herself when she mocked her in the precinct after the whole speech about following the law and not taking the law into our own hands. I really liked it when Tess said next you will saying that's what separates men from beasts.
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Post by raniamahd on Oct 28, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5
yes say it again please ! you don't know how much i was disappointed on Cat every time he did that and she just took that in silent ?! i was like ( come on Cat ! you really would take that from him ? where the speech about no one can allow or forbid you from anything ? no one but you make your decisions ?! ) i was even more astonished or shocked when she kept recycle Gabe's speech about doing things by the book because that is the different between human and beasts ! not just because that was hypocrite after she asked V to do exactly that in the previous ep ? i mean how exactly did she expect him to hunt and /or kill Sam's beasts by the book ? he didn't have a gun or badge or worked in the law system in general ? all he had was his beastly power and last time i checked using this to apply justice would give him a bullet in his gut ! -- but what shocked me the most was that she didn't even bother to use her own words instead of Gabe's ?! now what you don't even have your own words ?! did the cat steal your tongue like they said ?! so when she ignored Gabe and go with V after Sam in ep16 and V didn't miss the chance to smirk in his face about him doesn't made decisions for Cat = neither you Gabe ! not anymore i was like : yeah finally she is back and as for vincat made love before she officially broke up with Gabe ? i don't feel even the tiniest thing of pity for poor Gabe as you said it he had this coming and he totally deserved it , that's what you get if you push a woman to be with you while you know for sure she is still in love with another guy ! and think that controlling and manipulative both of them to do them apart would work and get you the girl ! the only thing i am sorry about it is that he didn't know about their night ! yeah he deserved to had someone smirk about it in his face Even Tess was starting to see that Cat was losing herself when she mocked her in the precinct after the whole speech about following the law and not taking the law into our own hands. I really liked it when Tess said next you will saying that's what separates men from beasts. exactly ! and that is Tess ? Gabe's cheering team leader and biggest anti beasts ! that is the biggest prove to how much Cat was totally losing herself in that called relationship with Gabe ! lucky for her it didn't last more than days or else she wouldn't even recognize herself in the mirror anymore !
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Oct 28, 2014 11:16:20 GMT -5
THAT is what it comes down to. No one can possibly like the woman that Cat has become while with Gabe. Cat even doubts her own DETECTIVE skills (which is what leads Tess to finally question Gabe's motives to Cat's face).
As I said earlier, Gabe pressures Cat throughout this episode and downright demeans her. Cat is almost like a domestic violence victim female that has just learned to try to keep peace by doing whatever her male wants her to do. Cat is downtrodden and made to feel bad about herself while Gabe has only himself to blame for forcing Cat to FINALLY come out fighting for what she wants.
The episode shows you NUMEROUS instances of comparisons between how Vincent treats Cat versus how Gabe treats Cat. First, Gabe CLEARLY questions Cat regarding her whereabouts when she has only gone to get coffee with Tess. Gabe then uses the moment to try to PRESSURE Cat to take the key to his apartment. Cat's very FACE reflects how averse to the idea that she is. Gabe clearly knows where he stands, yet he tries to tighten the noose. Gabe belittles Vincent in front of Cat for having captured Sam. YET it was GABE himself that wanted Vincent around purely for muscle in episode 214. Gabe makes it clear to Vincent that he is to be used when it suits Gabe and in the way it suits Gabe. (And the camera angle DOES at one point focus on Cat who is very much divided at this point. She had just walked in on Vincent beasting out on Sam in the cell. Certainly doesn't look like Vincent is in control if Sam could bait him so easily. And remember, Cat WASN'T present to hear just HOW Sam got Vincent upset in the first place.)
Gabe continues to pressure Cat more and more throughout the episode. He tells her to find Sam BUT not to use Vincent and "beast justice." Again, CAT is the DETECTIVE, not Gabe. It is not Gabe's place to tell Cat how to do her job. Yet Gabe does it, and Catherine lets it happen. Gabe has Cat believing that this is the "team" approach rather than Gabe's motivation. (Because Gabe CANNOT STAND to see Vincent play the hero as he did in Episode 214, when Gabe had put HIS OWN life at risk due to his own stupidity and inability to be on the sidelines while Cat and Vincent solved the case. So rather than accept Vincent's help and be thankful, GABE TURNS IT AROUND on Vincent AND Cat, by fussing at Cat at his apartment for her involvement with Vincent, all while Cat was still sore from her injuries.) So Gabe pressures Cat to go with HIS plan, in HIS way. He even CALLS HER on the phone to GIVE HER FURTHER ORDERS, only to find Cat in the car wreck with Vincent. And WHILE Vincent AND Cat are trying to figure out Sam's plan, GABE JUST WANTS TO KNOW HOW VINCENT GOT IN THE CAR. That is the focus for Gabe, not Cat's danger or the victim's status.
Then, once Sam is captured, Gabe makes it clear that he is displeased with Cat. For once, Cat defends herself with saying that she hugged Vincent in the moment (after they had just SURVIVED an explosion and saved the victim, as well as capturing Sam WITH the necessary proof now there due to the bomb). And Gabe still talks down to her AND demands that Cat basically choose a side RIGHT THEN and go talk to Vincent RIGHT AWAY.
Compare Gabe's behavior to Vincent. Once Vincent and Cat run into each other (literally), they get into the car together with little effort. They are able to discuss things, and Vincent is able to bring up the victim-related issues that GABE had failed to take into consideration. Vincent and Cat work together to get right-side up in the car, and they work together to get to the phone and discuss the situation with Gabe. Vincent and Cat come up with a plan together, and they are able to enact a plan at the scene, with Vincent going after the Beast and Cat going after Sam. And Vincent trusts Cat to do her part of the plan. Vincent does NOT pressure Cat to do his plan or no plan, as Gabe does.
And Vincent is willing to let Cat go, if that is what she wants. He doesn't plead for her to stay or tell her that he loves her more than Gabe. Vincent does NOT try to make Cat feel GUILTY about what she wants, as Gabe has. When Cat says that she doesn't want to hurt Vincent, he makes it clear to her that he entirely understands where she is coming from. He doesn't even put indirect pressure on Cat by trying to look hurt and angry AS GABE DID AT THE PRECINCT. No manipulative behaviors coming from Vincent. Vincent leaves it entirely up to CAT to decide what she wants in her life. NO PRESSURE. When Vincent first kisses Cat, he then moves away to give her time to decide what she wants to do. So it is CAT'S decision to renew the kissing.
I will say that Gabe DID tell Cat to make a decision about who she wanted to be with. FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, Gabe has put it out there, at least in theory, that Cat has the responsibility to make the choice for who she wants to be with, either Vincent or himself. So arguably, from that standpoint, it is not cheating when Cat makes her choice to be with Vincent at the boathouse. Yes, Cat later backtracks and questions her decision, but at least at this point, Cat realizes she HAS to make her choice clear to both men. And Cat thereafter lets Gabe know she has doubts, and GABE ADMITS that Cat has the right to change her mind. At least in episode 215, Gabe DID send Cat to Vincent's houseboat to communicate her choice. And Vincent's lack of attitude and refusal to try to manipulate Cat, his ability to put CAT'S NEEDS ahead of his own, and the kisses said it all for what Cat's ultimate decision would be.
(And I will ADD this: The only reason that I feel that Cat backtracks her decision somewhat during Episode 216 is because she still needs that communication from Vincent that he won't again go back to how it was before once she has chosen him. Cat knows she has made some mistakes and poor decisions herself--she wants to ensure that she is not making still yet another wrong one. Her confirmation comes in Vincent's words and actions at the ball when Vincent tries to talk Sam down from the ledge and when he lets Cat decide what role she will take in Sam's capture. Gabe's actions just show his manipulation and the need for his needs to come first, even above the potential victims on the top floor of the ball.)
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Post by dan on Oct 28, 2014 11:17:40 GMT -5
CAT lost herself when she was with Vincent. At least with poor Gabe,she was allowed to have beast free storyline for a litte while,and that was something that her fans would cheer for. And now she might just back to use Vincent way where criminals should just be kill,kill,and kill in cold blood instead of bring them to face law and justice.
God. #HeforShe #LawOverMurders
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Oct 28, 2014 11:38:45 GMT -5
Dan,
I DO believe that Cat lost herself early on in Season 2 with Vincent because NEITHER of them was in a good place. Cat was trying to save the person that she loved, period. Cat went to great lengths to save Vincent. And I do believe that Vincent realizes NOW just how much Cat had to sacrifice of her life and her career in order to do this. Vincent, in turn, from arguably 214 onwards tried to be the kind of man that Cat could love. Vincent himself realized that he allowed the "beast" part to dominate how he approached the relationship in early Season 2. But to be fair, that was NOT the Vincent that we all had formerly loved or known. This version was the one that had been created as a result of memory manipulation and torture. So Vincent was not himself, although still responsible for the choices that he thereafter made. And Vincent realizes this, particularly in this episode.
And Cat allowed her person to totally be subsumed by Gabe. Gabe certainly wasn't good for Cat. In episode 214, Cat wonders aloud to Vincent about WHY she is losing her humanity. It is because of the choices that Cat is making while with Gabe and under his influence. I will say that what I love about Cat and Vincent together is that Vincent gives Cat the right to make her OWN choices. Which no one should have tried to take away from her in the first place. Vincent loves Cat BECAUSE she is the strong-willed woman that she is. Vincent defers to Cat's judgment in her areas of expertise, BUT he feels confident enough to argue with Catherine when he thinks that she is wrong, as he does in this episode in the car ride.
Dan, you KNOW I am for a strong, independent-minded Catherine. I don't think that means that she has to be alone. She just has to KNOW HERSELF and know what she wants for herself. And she FINALLY begins to figure that out in this episode.
Which is why, like others before me, I LOVE this episode so much. It is still one of my top favorite episodes of Season 2 as well.
Dan, I will add this: part of what the writers tried to communicate to us was that neither Vincent OR Catherine did well apart from each other during this season. Ultimately, they actually BOTH find the freedom to be themselves AND stand up for their own morals and principles from talking it out and working TOGETHER for a better future. And I think that IS a powerful message. Know when you can face something alone and know when you need others, particularly those people that let you be yourself. And Cat's best version of herself AND her most confident one is when she is with others that recognize her SKILLS and LOVE HER for who she is.
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Post by NotOnTv on Oct 28, 2014 15:52:07 GMT -5
I think I should have been institutionalized by now for the number of times I have watched this episode.
Ultimately, what it all comes down for me is that Catherine just gave in to all these feelings and emotions that we as audience have seen brewing for a couple of episodes by then and therefore all her actions made perfect sense to me. Maybe it sounds a bit harsh but by that last scene on houseboat I completely forgot about Gabe. I could not care less about Gabe. Why? Because to me this is a story of two characters who are meant to be. Together. Are they meant to be these two perfect flawless creatures who god forbid hurt people along the way? No. Because they're flawed. We all are. We all are flawed and wrong and justifying and careless when it comes to people we love.
If Catherine decided to quit seeing Vincent that night and went back to Gabe to spend the night with him I wonder would some people also complain that she was cheating on Gabe emotionally? Because what is worse? Where is the moral high ground here?
I LOVE LOVE LOVE the houseboat scene. Superb acting on both parts. I have no idea how they do it but Kristin and Jay could sell sand in desert and water at waterfalls and hell I would buy! The conflict and the emotions mirrored on their faces...wow. Her brain saying one thing, producing these pointless sentences, her body humming with "please don't let me go, say sth" and Vincent digging into his food like as if he has to keep doing it to stay sane and not fall apart in that very moment. And the kiss. The kiss was everything. I only have one complaint and that is how dark the scene was. I call that bad editing.
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Post by raniamahd on Oct 28, 2014 16:40:31 GMT -5
If Catherine decided to quit seeing Vincent that night and went back to Gabe to spend the night with him I wonder would some people also complain that she was cheating on Gabe emotionally? Because what is worse? Where is the moral high ground here? interesting point ! and yes i agree that emotional betrayal is much worse than physical one ! it's immoral to have sex with someone while you are supposedly in a relation with other person ! but its much worse to share the bed every night with some one but thinking and dreaming of someone else ! to be unable to open your heart to him because your heart still belongs to someone else ! as a lot of members said before if Gabe was some other innocent guy got involved in vincat's mess we would feel sorry for him because Cat used him as a rebound and kept holding him while she didn't love him instead of setting him free to be with someone can love him and be devoted to him only ! -- but again its Gabe ?! he had it coming and deserved it ! as they said ( the worst kind of lie is to lie to yourself ) ! so in my eyes Cat was cheating only on herself and on her own heart ! she didn't owe Gabe nor Vincent anything at this point ! she owe herself and only herself to be honest with herself and open to her feeling instead of hiding behind a wall of lies and lame excuses or meaningless , loveless relationship so it was good to see her in the last part of the next ep going back to be her own true self again !
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Post by tenshi on Oct 28, 2014 17:53:12 GMT -5
My rewatch is a little late - but better late than never Love at the beginning of the episode the good mood V is in despite it is 5 in the morning. V so make the coffee strong and JT open up the lid of the coffee machine again to fill in more coffee powder .LOVe the convo V: Stop using that part of me, show her that I would never choose beast again - JT: how will you know when your're there, how will she know.
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