The Everything Thread-READ ME!

[georgie]

Jun 28, 2014 15:01:58 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

Part of the reason that KK wears flannel rather than barely there stuff might be a point that she is just being herself and not changing for anyone. And she IS cute in those jammies, and if you remember, her Mother always gave her a pair of flannel pjs for her birthday and watched old movies with her. And when Vincent learned of that story, he also gave her a pair of flannel pjs. Thus, THIS is her "home" and her comfort zone. Flannel pjs is like her way of feeling happy and comfortable with the one she loves most--she puts on her flannel pj bottoms (the ones, I think, that Vincent gave her back in the birthday eppy) with the gray shirt when she goes to open the door in 216.

Practically, BATB is also filmed in Canada, mostly in the winter-ish months. This past season, it was freaking below zero degrees when the actors had to be out filming, particularly night scenes. Some of the behind the scenes photos would show them having to pile about 3 jackets on top of KK between scenes because it WAS so cold. In the opening scenes of the Pilot episode, it was like minus degrees below in the scene KK had to film outside in the beginning and she ended up having FLU for most of the filming of the Pilot. As a result, there may be an actual smart reason to why we seemed to mostly see KK in jackets on our screens this season.

However, I do think that part of the time that VinCat were apart, it seemed like KK's hair, make-up, lighting, and clothes were all plain and wrong, as if she wasn't as full-out Beauty as when she was happy and fulfilled with Vincent. Subtle way to show that everything in her life was NOT right, even when she thought she was "moving on." What seems to support my hypothesis, at least in my opinion, is that after she has slept with Vincent in 215, she wears blue that accentuates her eyes and has beautiful blush on her cheeks, that "afterglow" look, and a spring to her step. And her hair has been PERFECT since she got back with Vincent. Again, just another subtle way of showing that when her life is in order and she is happy, she LOOKS the part of Beauty.

I also think that the writers, particularly Jennifer and Sherri, have liked to have KK dress up for a particular reason and deliberately WATCH Vincent's reaction when she comes into his view. We saw this in the Pilot when KK comes dressed for her father's engagement party. Vincent had TOLD Catherine not to come back to his place, and he continues to yell at her before this scene and others directly after when she shows up at his place for a while BUT NOT when she comes all dressed up. His whole face just lights up looking at the Beauty that he loves. You see this again in the Masquerade Ball episode (oh how I love you "Any Means Possible"!) when Cat comes down the stares. Vincent loves Catherine, but you can see him just fall in love with her all over again each time she is really all Beauty. If Cat was always dressed up, it would not really make sense because you really CAN'T kick butt all that well in heels and a tight dress. 

Just my two cents worth for the color and clothing and lighting (and hair) choices for Cat this season.

I like this insight, alwayscrazedbatbfan; I'll certainly pay more attention to how Catherine is dressed up (and down) when I re-watch episodes.

Yes, the fact she wears practical attire for everyday makes sense to me; some other police shows have their female cops chasing down crooks in six-inch heels - ridiculous. I like that Catherine doesn't have an endless wardrobe for everyday wear, too - seems more realistic.

[georgie]

Jul 8, 2014 15:52:39 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

What Brad Kern originally must have envisioned for the Tori-Beast angle and what ended up happening just never gelled. First off, by implying that the "primal pull" between Tori-Beast and Vincent-Beast was more powerful than anything that could be had with a human appeared as a direct slap to the epic love that transcended all. Obviously, that was not going to work if the VinCat love was truly epic in every sense. What played out on our screens was designed to show us that a cerebral attraction based on intellectual compatibility as well as chemical, emotional and sexual compatibility was far more satisfying than any animal-based initial beast attraction could ever be. I would have liked the statements made front and center by the characters so that NO DOUBT was left in the viewers' minds, but at least we were given the actions of the various characters that ultimately support this. And the "thing" that Tori and Vincent had turned out to be nothing but empty sex based on isolation, mutual anger and need for revenge that the two characters were going through at the time. So Brad Kern was right in a sense, a "primal pull" based on anger and almost beast insanity and selfishness led only to an uneasy alliance of sorts that never felt right to even the characters themselves. Tori comments on how she is losing Vincent right there at the beginning of their relationship despite her moving herself into the boathouse and spending every night in Vincent's bed. Vincent can't wait to get out of said bed in order to call Catherine, which is commented upon by Tori. And Vincent tells Tori that her beast power basically "messes with his head" and affects his judgment to the point that he wants AWAY from her and time apart in order to "clear his head." Clearly, there is no "satisfaction" enough to keep Vincent with Tori. And we see that all Vincent has done is tap into his "dark Beast side" while being with Tori, something which Vincent will articulate in episode 216 that only led to grief and sorrow for him. Vincent cannot even deny to Tori that he does not want back with Catherine.  

And Vincent is awkward in all of his conversations with Tori in 212. As mentioned above, he can't deny that he wants back with Catherine and that he feels his head is foggy and not right with Tori. And Vincent IMMEDIATELY needs to go and discuss the situation with Catherine, which is not awkward. Vincent can naturally relate his troubles and be understood by Catherine, which leads him to ask her if they are, indeed, just friends. This question by Vincent seems to mean, at least by him, that he actually would want to be more again to Catherine, but she interprets it as "better than enemies." Cat's seeming to be better without him, something that is a re-emergence of Vincent's insecurities from Season 1, keeps Vincent from pressing the issue with Cat then and later leads Cat to "move on" because she thinks Vincent has done so (don't get me started on this. I didn't like Cat with Gabe any better than anyone else, and I won't deal with it here again. This was simply desperation to have something normal without pain and to end the trauma, etc. for Cat so that she could think that she had moved on. Sigh.).


So Beast-sex for Vincent just ultimately proved to be empty, awkward, and kept Vincent from what he really wanted, which was to finally get things right with Cat. It clearly NEVER met Vincent's needs. Vincent never smiles at Tori, never seems comfortable with Tori, and never wants to rush back off to the bedroom with Tori even when she is trying to give a hint in early 212. Vincent never even approaches anything close to happiness with Tori ever.  

And I loved how we got to see that Cat DID meet ALL of Vincent's needs, including sexually. A "satisfied" Vincent from his activities with Cat is clearly worn out and sleeps like the dead. I mean, Vincent's beast senses can't wake him up after Catherine sneaks out in 216, even after she drops her boot on the floor. And Vincent's look and description of sex from 215 to JT in 216 show that he clearly enjoyed what had happened the evening before with Cat and that it "meant something" to him. And once Vincent knows that Cat clearly still has unresolved feelings for him as a result of said sex, Vincent becomes determined that nothing and no one will keep him and Cat apart moving forward. And Vincent and Cat CLEARLY spent a whole DAY in suburbia making up for lost time since Vincent and Cat don't even unload the car of their possessions until the morning AFTER they have arrived. And Vincent comes down the steps and into the kitchen all bubbly both nights after having been with Cat in suburbia, and again, Vincent slept through Catherine getting up BOTH nights to 1) read crime reports and look for what going on in NY after night 1 and 2) go question the cops and neighbors after the murder for night 2. And Vincent and Cat clearly were enjoying a last romp in the NY hostel in 221 before heading back to Cat's place, where they apparently enjoyed a Second Round in Cat's bed, as Vincent is only in briefs and a robe the next morning while cooking Cat breakfast. And Vincent is clearly SO HAPPY in their domestic activities, as we see him wanting to make breakfast for Cat both in suburbia and in her apartment. I mean, JT comments on the fact that NEITHER Vincent or Catherine answered their phones to learn that Gabe had become a Beast again because the two were clearly doing other things with their whole night and early morning. And from 216 forward, Vincent has repeatedly commented on being meant to be with Catherine and on their having a future together.

And I will say it here:  it is SO CUTE that Vincent CANNOT stay mad at Cat either in suburbia or in 222 for her having locked him up or been obsessed with the journal and unable to relax. Vincent is just so darn happy to be living with Catherine that he seems as much in love with her obsessive compulsiveness to look for things to worry about, although Cat is usually right in being worried, as being irritated with her for failing to enjoy the moment. And when Cat finally surrenders to just enjoying the moment with Vincent and SAYING that this is what she wants to do for the foreseeable future, the two just kiss to their heart's content at the end of 222. Catherine will undoubtedly be worried for what comes next by the time we see her in Season 3, but Vincent is all about contentment with exactly what he has. Tomorrow's problems can come for Vincent, but he does not have a worry or care about it as he has EXACTLY what he wants. So much for the "primal pull" of Beast sex and having something with Tori that he did not have with Catherine--it was only empty awkwardness and deep sorrow and regret.    

Wow! What a great post. I love your insights, and your observations of even the smallest details are incredible. Thank you.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

Well, this is the Everything Thread, and I am finally at the point of being able to post about the differences in the 2 seasons.

As a Reply I made that turned into almost a Rant in the Season 3 thread, I still have issues with the whole Season 1 versus Season 2 debate. There were things about BOTH seasons that I loved and hated, especially with what was said about the characters at the time. Case in point:  the whole Alex arc from Season 1 and how that fallout was dealt with (or wasn't). But I will start from the beginning. 

Season 1 began with a Vincent that was basically completely Isolated from all society, except for JT. And the JT that we saw at the beginning seemed to be rather bitter as was Vincent. Both had given up EVERYTHING due to what had happened to Vincent. JT even commented early on to Vincent (in "Saturn Returns") that NO ONE should be brought into their lives because it basically was no life, just imprisonment. They no longer "celebrated" any events in their lives because they felt there was nothing worth celebrating. They BOTH were just existing prior to Catherine basically coming into their lives like some blazing hurricane that most likely will lead to destruction (and needed change) in its wake.

And Catherine comes off as a bit selfish, in some ways, at the beginning. She wants her answers, and she will even cross lines and violate trust with someone (Vincent) who certainly already has Major Trust Issues. She steals Vincent's army picture in order to find out who the other men were, tries to investigate into Muirfield and use Vincent even though he has already told Catherine enough about Muirfield to let Catherine see that investigations into Muirfield only lead to death. HOWEVER, Catherine regrets her actions when she sees that danger DOES come and that she has violated Vincent's trust. She admits her faults of making everything a Case AND that this is her way of distancing herself from others since her mother's murder.

And Vincent is harsh with Catherine and constantly tries to push her away and out of his (and JT's) lives. But even after each push away, Vincent is rapidly back to undo the damage and pull Catherine closer because he literally can't help himself. Vincent is dragged back into living in the world despite himself. And JT is forced back as well. BOTH men end up protecting the little girls from a killer in the immigrant episode, even though neither originally wanted to be involved. And Vincent comes to relish working with Catherine and bringing her potential cases, especially when he can help her solve them. And BOTH Vincent and Catherine CANNOT DENY the pull between them, even when both know that following their hearts will most likely be problematic for both of them and their separate lives.

I think that it is important to note that JT changes as much as Vincent. JT is originally snarky, bitter and almost mean-spirited in his comments, even to Vincent at times. Yet JT comes to like Catherine and even recommend her over Alex because he knows that Catherine truly accepts Vincent for all he is and CAN be trusted to protect Vincent, even at the risk of her own life. The change in their relationship (JT's and Catherine's) really is the ONE thing that I found I liked from the Alex arc. JT trust Catherine to both rid Alex's apartment of Vincent's traces AND to go to the cabin to warn Vincent about Muirfield's bug, even knowing that Catherine is going into her worst nightmare of seeing Vincent potentially happy and basically living with Alex at the cabin (proving that he has moved on from her). JT knows that jealousy won't keep Catherine from risking life and limb for Vincent. There is real trust there. And anytime thereafter, JT encourages Vincent to pursue Catherine and accepts that Catherine is now a permanent part of their lives and an asset to them (just look at JT's comment in AMP when Catherine walks into the warehouse at the beginning of the episode "oh look who got her own key!" and then running out to throw pencils at his office ceiling in order to give Vincent privacy to actually consummate his relationship with Catherine).

Catherine forces BOTH men back into the world. And both are certainly better off for it. JT and Vincent are able to open themselves up to Love and to begin to LIVE again. While JT seems to embrace his better side and never slack from it, Vincent thereafter MAJORLY stumbles, in my opinion, with the whole Alex relationship. The "Alex thing" is presented supposedly as Vincent needing to resolve his past issues and the fact that he had been with Alex his whole life. HOWEVER, Vincent clearly wasn't following her around and seeing what she had become in the way that he has Catherine. And Vincent just "decides" to pick Alex even though she knows NOTHING about his life and he CLEARLY has no intentions of telling her about it. Vincent just wants to become his past, something that he better than ANYONE should know is not possible. There is no way Vincent could simply "become" a doctor again with how well regulated medical restrictions are supposed to be. Vincent's plan never seems realistic. And it is "all about Vincent" and HIS needs rather than about EITHER one of the women in his life. Vincent appears to be entirely selfish, and Vincent is living in a dream world that he can just move away and never have to worry about being on Muirfield's radar OR what will happen to Catherine in the future. Really? And Vincent immediately tries to get Catherine back the second that Alex shows her fear of what Vincent has become (hey, after what I had just seen on my screen regarding Vincent's stupidity, I was worried about what Vincent had become and about his true character). Vincent was willing to simply drop Catherine at will, despite her just having been SHOT from a case that he brought to her attention in the first place AND after Catherine had risked her own fragile health to save Alex. How anyone would think that Catherine wasn't the right choice from the get-go in seeing what she was willing to sacrifice for Vincent's happiness and to save others. And Vincent made it clear to Catherine that his decision was ALL ABOUT HIM and what he wanted for himself, regardless of what he actually FELT for either woman. Seriously? Epic Love? Not at this point.

And I really did not like that Catherine forgave Vincent in just one episode. And trusted that he really loved and cared about her moving forwards thereafter. Yes, I get Vincent had unresolved issues and all that from his past; and we certainly see moving forward throughout the rest of Season 1 how devoted Vincent truly is to Catherine and to their love. Still didn't like how the whole Alex arc was played. Left me uncomfortable in so many ways. By "Any Means Possible," the VinCat love was so obvious that I just didn't care anymore about the Alex arc except when I actually re-watch or think about it. HOWEVER, I do think that the whole Alex arc DOES show the Vincent self-centeredness and selfishness that was presented in early Season 2. Wasn't really Vincent out of character at all from that point.

In both Season 1 and Season 2, Vincent has times that he feels sorry for himself and behaves in a selfish manner because of all he has been through and him wanting an easy way out and vengeance. Understandable, but it brings out the worst side of Vincent that ends up hurting Catherine in both seasons. And at that point in BOTH seasons, Catherine really didn't deserve the grief and malevolence leveled her way. Vincent's situation was NOT her fault. But both times, Vincent thinks there is a better life and a better woman to go along with his new life.  Vincent almost immediately regrets his actions in BOTH seasons when he chooses someone else over Catherine. And both times, Vincent realizes that Catherine was the better choice (and ONLY choice for his happiness). And that Catherine is the person that HE wants to make happy.

As for Catherine, she, too, changes as a result of her interactions with Vincent, JT and Muirfield. While Catherine recognizes that she has to lie to everyone and keep a secret bigger than herself in Season 1, Catherine really DOESN'T fully know what she is signing on for until her whole life comes completely crashing down upon her by the end of Season 1. Catherine tells Vincent in Season 1 that she doesn't care what she has to lose as long as she has him. Well, Season 2 really really turns that on its end due to completely unforeseen circumstances. Catherine has lost almost all of her known family that she has left: her father that raised her is dead, her burgeoning relationship with her step-mother is gone because she hasn't kept any real ties due to her 3 month search for Vincent, her sister moves away because she has a better career opportunity and Catherine has been MIA from her life for the past 3 months anyway, and Catherine finds her mother had still YET ANOTHER secret in never having told Catherine the truth about her biological father. All of Catherine's trust issues have to be out of the window, her career by the wayside BUT for Gabe's allowing her to work the case she wanted (Vincent being a missing person). And Muirfield seems to have taken Vincent from her in the same way that they took Evan from her. Evan DIED to protect Catherine, yet Catherine could never really take time to grieve or think about what happened at that time in Season 1 due to the immediate danger Vincent still faced. And Vincent and Catherine had finally decided to fight for a future together AND for something approaching normal which seemed to be almost within their grasp by the end of Season 1 before EVERYTHING completely crashes in on itself, and Vincent goes from potential Normal back to Beast in order to save himself and Catherine (and then gets kidnapped). So Catherine is left an almost Hollow Shell at the beginning of Season 2 as a result of grief and loss and trauma.  

Catherine was not in a position, emotionally, to deal with the Vincent that came back. Catherine prefers to originally live in a dreamworld and believe that it will somehow be easy to get HER Vincent back rather than deal with what has actually happened. Yet Vincent and Catherine still have that pull towards one another that neither can deny, even though Vincent tries originally. Vincent can't imagine why he should trust Catherine, who has no real proof of their relationship, yet Vincent is easily seduced by Catherine in Episode 2 of Season 2. Even though Vincent then tries to act like it was a one-night stand, he immediately comes back to Catherine's roof to give her back her phone, an excuse to just be back around her. Despite what happens on the roof thereafter, (NOT dealing with that --there were so many other ways the writers could have handled that situation rather than have Vincent shove her. Not defending Vincent's actions. And at least Vincent is originally horrified by what he allows his Beast nature to do.) Vincent clearly wants Catherine and is desperate to not have her give up on him. He is clearly deeply hurt when he feels Catherine has used him and their relationship to get to his computer. Both lie to one another. But despite their anger, they SIZZLE when they dance together, even when fighting. And when Catherine is threatened by the Beast Vincent has come to kill, Vincent CLEARLY shows where his heart is. And he gets some flashes of his relationship with Catherine and is FINALLY convinced of what Catherine has told him. Yet it is too late for Catherine, who is too hurt (despite what she herself did when also hurt) to forgive and forget so easily. "Hothead" followed and showed just how much Catherine was in Vincent's head (and heart) by this time, despite a lack of memories. Vincent just wants through with his missions so that he can reunite with Catherine. Period. Vincent sees himself as moving forward with Catherine. And Catherine SEEMS at that point as well by the end of "Hothead." But "Reunion" thereafter shows how much resentment Catherine still holds to what everything Beast and Beast-organizations and missions has cost her. And Catherine sees everything Beast as being a burden, and Vincent tells her he had "no idea" that she felt that way. He then leaves Catherine to be comforted by Gabe (although the pause and look he gives Gabe before he leaves that gym seems to show Vincent's slow realization that Gabe is going to be a threat to the relationship. A recognition that Vincent shrugs off in the moment that he maybe should have paid better attention to.). 

After "Reunion," things rather rapidly go to the realm of Hades and back again. Things and resentments pushed aside to be dealt with later come rushing forward and lead to things that neither Catherine nor Vincent anticipated. And leaves them both bitter and angry against one another, with each thinking the other betrayed their love. Tori's beastly powers are just that straw that brakes the camel's back. I've already covered that in other posts so won't make this post longer by going over the Gabe and Tori arcs again.

Both Catherine and Vincent made mistakes in Season 2, something that Catherine acknowledges in Episode 216. Both have a hard time trusting one another after the horrible circumstances that they have had to face. BOTH have lost so much that EACH was changed as a result. Both have to find their way back to their own morality and determine who each one is and what each one stands for before they can be a couple again. Therefore, comparing Vincent and Catherine in Season 1 and Season 2 as being different characters seems blatantly unfair to either individual character when you consider all the circumstances and challenges that have been thrown at the two of them. Yes, they each make mistakes. Who wouldn't under those circumstances? What is important to me is what each character LEARNS from their experiences AND HOW EACH ONE RECOVERS when they fall from grace. And they both decide that their Love is worth fighting for and IS something that can withstand future obstacles because they CHOOSE to move forward together, accepting all of their stupid or tragic mistakes from the past. And they forgive each other, so why don't WE forgive them? Both of them decide to stand for Saving Others and trying to right injustice in the RIGHT way, so I think their moral centers and characters come through scratched, bent and almost broken, but much stronger in the end. So I still love them both, maybe even more.

I know it is still hard for everyone to forgive what they saw on their screens in Season 2, but I think that BOTH Season 1 and Season 2 have their individual merits, and both seasons show the best and worst in Vincent and Catherine's characters. I guess my individual argument for this thread is that maybe we DON'T have to prefer or compare one or the other season to find a particular character lacking or not. There are just things that characters do that we all don't like and appear out of character for them. But how they emerge TOGETHER as a consequence of BOTH seasons is why I actually love the show. And why I welcome Season 3 as still a whole new and different chapter for VinCat. I think the characters HAVE grown (and had major setbacks) in both seasons. Further character development should still be to come in Season 3 as they continue to discover the good and bad about one another as each is tested further. Makes for POTENTIAL, not regression, in my opinion. Just saying everyone should continue to watch for the evolution of the characters, not just for what they do that appears like something they did in Season 1 or 2. Hope that makes sense.

[jefferen]

Jul 21, 2014 11:20:58 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

Well, this is the Everything Thread, and I am finally at the point of being able to post about the differences in the 2 seasons.

As a Reply I made that turned into almost a Rant in the Season 3 thread, I still have issues with the whole Season 1 versus Season 2 debate. There were things about BOTH seasons that I loved and hated, especially with what was said about the characters at the time. Case in point:  the whole Alex arc from Season 1 and how that fallout was dealt with (or wasn't). But I will start from the beginning. 

Season 1 began with a Vincent that was basically completely Isolated from all society, except for JT. And the JT that we saw at the beginning seemed to be rather bitter as was Vincent. Both had given up EVERYTHING due to what had happened to Vincent. JT even commented early on to Vincent (in "Saturn Returns") that NO ONE should be brought into their lives because it basically was no life, just imprisonment. They no longer "celebrated" any events in their lives because they felt there was nothing worth celebrating. They BOTH were just existing prior to Catherine basically coming into their lives like some blazing hurricane that most likely will lead to destruction (and needed change) in its wake.

And Catherine comes off as a bit selfish, in some ways, at the beginning. She wants her answers, and she will even cross lines and violate trust with someone (Vincent) who certainly already has Major Trust Issues. She steals Vincent's army picture in order to find out who the other men were, tries to investigate into Muirfield and use Vincent even though he has already told Catherine enough about Muirfield to let Catherine see that investigations into Muirfield only lead to death. HOWEVER, Catherine regrets her actions when she sees that danger DOES come and that she has violated Vincent's trust. She admits her faults of making everything a Case AND that this is her way of distancing herself from others since her mother's murder.

And Vincent is harsh with Catherine and constantly tries to push her away and out of his (and JT's) lives. But even after each push away, Vincent is rapidly back to undo the damage and pull Catherine closer because he literally can't help himself. Vincent is dragged back into living in the world despite himself. And JT is forced back as well. BOTH men end up protecting the little girls from a killer in the immigrant episode, even though neither originally wanted to be involved. And Vincent comes to relish working with Catherine and bringing her potential cases, especially when he can help her solve them. And BOTH Vincent and Catherine CANNOT DENY the pull between them, even when both know that following their hearts will most likely be problematic for both of them and their separate lives.

I think that it is important to note that JT changes as much as Vincent. JT is originally snarky, bitter and almost mean-spirited in his comments, even to Vincent at times. Yet JT comes to like Catherine and even recommend her over Alex because he knows that Catherine truly accepts Vincent for all he is and CAN be trusted to protect Vincent, even at the risk of her own life. The change in their relationship (JT's and Catherine's) really is the ONE thing that I found I liked from the Alex arc. JT trust Catherine to both rid Alex's apartment of Vincent's traces AND to go to the cabin to warn Vincent about Muirfield's bug, even knowing that Catherine is going into her worst nightmare of seeing Vincent potentially happy and basically living with Alex at the cabin (proving that he has moved on from her). JT knows that jealousy won't keep Catherine from risking life and limb for Vincent. There is real trust there. And anytime thereafter, JT encourages Vincent to pursue Catherine and accepts that Catherine is now a permanent part of their lives and an asset to them (just look at JT's comment in AMP when Catherine walks into the warehouse at the beginning of the episode "oh look who got her own key!" and then running out to throw pencils at his office ceiling in order to give Vincent privacy to actually consummate his relationship with Catherine).

Catherine forces BOTH men back into the world. And both are certainly better off for it. JT and Vincent are able to open themselves up to Love and to begin to LIVE again. While JT seems to embrace his better side and never slack from it, Vincent thereafter MAJORLY stumbles, in my opinion, with the whole Alex relationship. The "Alex thing" is presented supposedly as Vincent needing to resolve his past issues and the fact that he had been with Alex his whole life. HOWEVER, Vincent clearly wasn't following her around and seeing what she had become in the way that he has Catherine. And Vincent just "decides" to pick Alex even though she knows NOTHING about his life and he CLEARLY has no intentions of telling her about it. Vincent just wants to become his past, something that he better than ANYONE should know is not possible. There is no way Vincent could simply "become" a doctor again with how well regulated medical restrictions are supposed to be. Vincent's plan never seems realistic. And it is "all about Vincent" and HIS needs rather than about EITHER one of the women in his life. Vincent appears to be entirely selfish, and Vincent is living in a dream world that he can just move away and never have to worry about being on Muirfield's radar OR what will happen to Catherine in the future. Really? And Vincent immediately tries to get Catherine back the second that Alex shows her fear of what Vincent has become (hey, after what I had just seen on my screen regarding Vincent's stupidity, I was worried about what Vincent had become and about his true character). Vincent was willing to simply drop Catherine at will, despite her just having been SHOT from a case that he brought to her attention in the first place AND after Catherine had risked her own fragile health to save Alex. How anyone would think that Catherine wasn't the right choice from the get-go in seeing what she was willing to sacrifice for Vincent's happiness and to save others. And Vincent made it clear to Catherine that his decision was ALL ABOUT HIM and what he wanted for himself, regardless of what he actually FELT for either woman. Seriously? Epic Love? Not at this point.

And I really did not like that Catherine forgave Vincent in just one episode. And trusted that he really loved and cared about her moving forwards thereafter. Yes, I get Vincent had unresolved issues and all that from his past; and we certainly see moving forward throughout the rest of Season 1 how devoted Vincent truly is to Catherine and to their love. Still didn't like how the whole Alex arc was played. Left me uncomfortable in so many ways. By "Any Means Possible," the VinCat love was so obvious that I just didn't care anymore about the Alex arc except when I actually re-watch or think about it. HOWEVER, I do think that the whole Alex arc DOES show the Vincent self-centeredness and selfishness that was presented in early Season 2. Wasn't really Vincent out of character at all from that point.

In both Season 1 and Season 2, Vincent has times that he feels sorry for himself and behaves in a selfish manner because of all he has been through and him wanting an easy way out and vengeance. Understandable, but it brings out the worst side of Vincent that ends up hurting Catherine in both seasons. And at that point in BOTH seasons, Catherine really didn't deserve the grief and malevolence leveled her way. Vincent's situation was NOT her fault. But both times, Vincent thinks there is a better life and a better woman to go along with his new life.  Vincent almost immediately regrets his actions in BOTH seasons when he chooses someone else over Catherine. And both times, Vincent realizes that Catherine was the better choice (and ONLY choice for his happiness). And that Catherine is the person that HE wants to make happy.

As for Catherine, she, too, changes as a result of her interactions with Vincent, JT and Muirfield. While Catherine recognizes that she has to lie to everyone and keep a secret bigger than herself in Season 1, Catherine really DOESN'T fully know what she is signing on for until her whole life comes completely crashing down upon her by the end of Season 1. Catherine tells Vincent in Season 1 that she doesn't care what she has to lose as long as she has him. Well, Season 2 really really turns that on its end due to completely unforeseen circumstances. Catherine has lost almost all of her known family that she has left: her father that raised her is dead, her burgeoning relationship with her step-mother is gone because she hasn't kept any real ties due to her 3 month search for Vincent, her sister moves away because she has a better career opportunity and Catherine has been MIA from her life for the past 3 months anyway, and Catherine finds her mother had still YET ANOTHER secret in never having told Catherine the truth about her biological father. All of Catherine's trust issues have to be out of the window, her career by the wayside BUT for Gabe's allowing her to work the case she wanted (Vincent being a missing person). And Muirfield seems to have taken Vincent from her in the same way that they took Evan from her. Evan DIED to protect Catherine, yet Catherine could never really take time to grieve or think about what happened at that time in Season 1 due to the immediate danger Vincent still faced. And Vincent and Catherine had finally decided to fight for a future together AND for something approaching normal which seemed to be almost within their grasp by the end of Season 1 before EVERYTHING completely crashes in on itself, and Vincent goes from potential Normal back to Beast in order to save himself and Catherine (and then gets kidnapped). So Catherine is left an almost Hollow Shell at the beginning of Season 2 as a result of grief and loss and trauma.  

Catherine was not in a position, emotionally, to deal with the Vincent that came back. Catherine prefers to originally live in a dreamworld and believe that it will somehow be easy to get HER Vincent back rather than deal with what has actually happened. Yet Vincent and Catherine still have that pull towards one another that neither can deny, even though Vincent tries originally. Vincent can't imagine why he should trust Catherine, who has no real proof of their relationship, yet Vincent is easily seduced by Catherine in Episode 2 of Season 2. Even though Vincent then tries to act like it was a one-night stand, he immediately comes back to Catherine's roof to give her back her phone, an excuse to just be back around her. Despite what happens on the roof thereafter, (NOT dealing with that --there were so many other ways the writers could have handled that situation rather than have Vincent shove her. Not defending Vincent's actions. And at least Vincent is originally horrified by what he allows his Beast nature to do.) Vincent clearly wants Catherine and is desperate to not have her give up on him. He is clearly deeply hurt when he feels Catherine has used him and their relationship to get to his computer. Both lie to one another. But despite their anger, they SIZZLE when they dance together, even when fighting. And when Catherine is threatened by the Beast Vincent has come to kill, Vincent CLEARLY shows where his heart is. And he gets some flashes of his relationship with Catherine and is FINALLY convinced of what Catherine has told him. Yet it is too late for Catherine, who is too hurt (despite what she herself did when also hurt) to forgive and forget so easily. "Hothead" followed and showed just how much Catherine was in Vincent's head (and heart) by this time, despite a lack of memories. Vincent just wants through with his missions so that he can reunite with Catherine. Period. Vincent sees himself as moving forward with Catherine. And Catherine SEEMS at that point as well by the end of "Hothead." But "Reunion" thereafter shows how much resentment Catherine still holds to what everything Beast and Beast-organizations and missions has cost her. And Catherine sees everything Beast as being a burden, and Vincent tells her he had "no idea" that she felt that way. He then leaves Catherine to be comforted by Gabe (although the pause and look he gives Gabe before he leaves that gym seems to show Vincent's slow realization that Gabe is going to be a threat to the relationship. A recognition that Vincent shrugs off in the moment that he maybe should have paid better attention to.). 

After "Reunion," things rather rapidly go to the realm of Hades and back again. Things and resentments pushed aside to be dealt with later come rushing forward and lead to things that neither Catherine nor Vincent anticipated. And leaves them both bitter and angry against one another, with each thinking the other betrayed their love. Tori's beastly powers are just that straw that brakes the camel's back. I've already covered that in other posts so won't make this post longer by going over the Gabe and Tori arcs again.

Both Catherine and Vincent made mistakes in Season 2, something that Catherine acknowledges in Episode 216. Both have a hard time trusting one another after the horrible circumstances that they have had to face. BOTH have lost so much that EACH was changed as a result. Both have to find their way back to their own morality and determine who each one is and what each one stands for before they can be a couple again. Therefore, comparing Vincent and Catherine in Season 1 and Season 2 as being different characters seems blatantly unfair to either individual character when you consider all the circumstances and challenges that have been thrown at the two of them. Yes, they each make mistakes. Who wouldn't under those circumstances? What is important to me is what each character LEARNS from their experiences AND HOW EACH ONE RECOVERS when they fall from grace. And they both decide that their Love is worth fighting for and IS something that can withstand future obstacles because they CHOOSE to move forward together, accepting all of their stupid or tragic mistakes from the past. And they forgive each other, so why don't WE forgive them? Both of them decide to stand for Saving Others and trying to right injustice in the RIGHT way, so I think their moral centers and characters come through scratched, bent and almost broken, but much stronger in the end. So I still love them both, maybe even more.

I know it is still hard for everyone to forgive what they saw on their screens in Season 2, but I think that BOTH Season 1 and Season 2 have their individual merits, and both seasons show the best and worst in Vincent and Catherine's characters. I guess my individual argument for this thread is that maybe we DON'T have to prefer or compare one or the other season to find a particular character lacking or not. There are just things that characters do that we all don't like and appear out of character for them. But how they emerge TOGETHER as a consequence of BOTH seasons is why I actually love the show. And why I welcome Season 3 as still a whole new and different chapter for VinCat. I think the characters HAVE grown (and had major setbacks) in both seasons. Further character development should still be to come in Season 3 as they continue to discover the good and bad about one another as each is tested further. Makes for POTENTIAL, not regression, in my opinion. Just saying everyone should continue to watch for the evolution of the characters, not just for what they do that appears like something they did in Season 1 or 2. Hope that makes sense.

Where is the LOVE button? U need to get out of my head:)

[Bill the beast]

Jul 21, 2014 11:20:58 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

And Catherine comes off as a bit selfish, in some ways, at the beginning. She wants her answers, and she will even cross lines and violate trust with someone (Vincent) who certainly already has Major Trust Issues. 

An eloquent post alwayscrazedbatbfan and I agree with your point of view. However, my view of Catherine's growth in Season Two - supposedly the "Who Am I?" Season - is that it was completely a missed opportunity.

You point out well how damaged even Catherine is in the beginning. To use Kristin's phrase: both characters are "badly broken". Catherine has watched her mother gunned down, been saved by Vincent in full-Beast-mode, and then no one on the planet will believe what she saw. By the Pilot she has given up the Law and sunk into full obsession.

Over the course of the next dozen episodes she rapidly becomes more self-aware. In fact the thing I love about the Alex arc - with Catherine's trips to the psychiatrist - is how plausibly she opens up. I liked her, I respected her and I wanted to know more about her.

Beginning with Season Two she is possibly even more broken than before. Part of what drives her through the season is the realization that she has lost herself. To me, she never plausibly recovers. Sure I'm happy they end up together but I'm just not sure how that came to pass. In the final few episodes Vincent tried to point out a few things to her about the way she processes her own anger but by then there just wasn't time.

It had been squandered on the emptiness of "I'm with Gabe" ...

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2014 19:06:50 GMT -5 Bill the beast said:

Jul 21, 2014 11:20:58 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

And Catherine comes off as a bit selfish, in some ways, at the beginning. She wants her answers, and she will even cross lines and violate trust with someone (Vincent) who certainly already has Major Trust Issues. 

An eloquent post alwayscrazedbatbfan and I agree with your point of view. However, my view of Catherine's growth in Season Two - supposedly the "Who Am I?" Season - is that it was completely a missed opportunity.

You point out well how damaged even Catherine is in the beginning. To use Kristin's phrase: both characters are "badly broken". Catherine has watched her mother gunned down, been saved by Vincent in full-Beast-mode, and then no one on the planet will believe what she saw. By the Pilot she has given up the Law and sunk into full obsession.

Over the course of the next dozen episodes she rapidly becomes more self-aware. In fact the thing I love about the Alex arc - with Catherine's trips to the psychiatrist - is how plausibly she opens up. I liked her, I respected her and I wanted to know more about her.

Beginning with Season Two she is possibly even more broken than before. Part of what drives her through the season is the realization that she has lost herself. To me, she never plausibly recovers. Sure I'm happy they end up together but I'm just not sure how that came to pass. In the final few episodes Vincent tried to point out a few things to her about the way she processes her own anger but by then there just wasn't time.

It had been squandered on the emptiness of "I'm with Gabe" ...

I see your perspective, Bill; it is as if Catherine get's stuck in limbo and is unable to successfully get to the other side of the "who am I" question in a convincing manner....I guess when you're bent backwards shuffling under a bar that keeps being lowered, time is of the essence, and it gets harder and harder to get to the other side without somehow collapsing.

[Deleted]

Alwayscrazedbatbfan, thank you very much for taking the time to write both your posts. It is clear to me that you have reflected deeply about the characters, the events in their lives and the differences between the two seasons. Your thought process is clear, hence, your ideas are well articulated and persuasive, and you present your feelings in an intelligible, meaningful and honest manner. I enjoyed reading your perspective....and now I will quit....I am beginning to sound like a teacher, and, after all, I am on summer holidays! LOL Thank you, again!!!!

[Bill the beast]

Jul 22, 2014 13:39:11 GMT -5 @locaxbatb said:

Alwayscrazedbatbfan, thank you very much for taking the time to write both your posts. It is clear to me that you have reflected deeply about the characters, the events in their lives and the differences between the two seasons. Your thought process is clear, hence, your ideas are well articulated and persuasive, and you present your feelings in an intelligible, meaningful and honest manner. I enjoyed reading your perspective....and now I will quit....I am beginning to sound like a teacher, and, after all, I am on summer holidays! LOL Thank you, again!!!!

Yeah, what she said.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

I certainly get what others have said about Catherine and her character growth (or lack thereof) this season. I don't disagree. In fact, I think Catherine has a ways to go. However, that said, it is exactly WHERE CATHERINE IS now that has so much potential.

As others have pointed out (very correctly, I might add), Catherine really does seem to make some real headway during the Alex arc in Season 1 where she does realize the severity of her previous issues. Just because someone knows the problem doesn't mean that they know how to fix it. And that ends up being the beauty of Catherine. Catherine's way of coping ultimately turns out to be trying to help others, even when basically drowning herself. Granted, at the beginning of Season 2, in the very first episode, we see how the THING THAT ACTUALLY CAUSES CATHERINE to break down crying is NOT that Vincent is back or that his memory is gone. She cries when she realizes that Heather has just texted her asking if she is alright. Heather is obviously worried about Cat. And this is with Cat having let her down, once again, in order to go run off to check up on JT and find out what happened to Vincent. Cat knows, in that moment, what it has cost her and that she has let so many others down with her being basically unable to do anything for 3 months but look for Vincent. Catherine is disappointed in herself and is able to open up and admit to Vincent that she HAS lost so much and just can't lose him to.

And a damaged Cat does try to make a comeback and be the perfect girlfriend and friend. And she tries to give Gabe a real chance and even thanks him for all that he does to try to help her (see ending "Reunion" episode--the Gabe/Catherine conversation at the end). Cat tries to make others aware of how grateful she is to have them in her life. Cat is heartbreakingly transparent when it comes to her love and loyalty, even when she is not able to be at her best.

My best analogy for Catherine this season is to describe Cat as having a very dirty house. Now, rather than cleaning up her own mess, she runs over to her friend's and helps them clean up. While Cat may still have a very dirty house herself (and guess what, you can only ignore the mess for so long--sooner or later, if you don't get to your own clutter, the mice will descend), she has made someone else happy by helping to clean their own house.  So yes, Cat is still messed up. Vincent (correctly) pointed out that Catherine shouldn't always clean up other's mess. Catherine let her anger build up against Gabe until the point that when he tried to grab her, she escalated to the point that excessive force was used. That is what I mean by the mice descending. Catherine lets things build up until she literally "beasts out." So yes, Catherine still has a WAYS to go in her own character development. She has been trying to help Vincent and others to the point of ignoring her own issues, and that certainly shouldn't come to an end just because Season 2 is over. Cat MUST, at some point, clean up her own house and not just concentrate on others. However, what I LOVE about BATB is the point that Vincent RECOGNIZES this issue in Catherine, and he has appointed himself to help Cat clean up her own house. Vincent and Catherine realize that maybe you DON'T have to figure it all out by yourself and struggle on your own: you CAN depend on someone you love to identify your issues, love you in spite of them, and help you muddle your way to a Cleaner and Better Tomorrow. (And THAT, dear friends IS REALLY WHY I SO LOVE THIS SHOW!!!) Catherine can be flawed. As long as she recognizes it, tries to be better, and lets others in past her walls to help her succeed in her quest to better herself, then Cat HAS made character growth and development, despite the setbacks and failures that occur along the way.

So yes, I actually believe that a broken Cat from Season 1 became a more broken Cat in the opening of Season 2 after all the additional trauma. And every time that Cat tries to pick herself back off the floor, she gets knocked down again by something else unexpected. And Cat just tries to approach things in an almost "la la land" of "it will all work itself out" (or, as she defines in 221, the "easy breezy approach"). Cat just takes for granted that Vincent will just fall in love with her again, despite having no knowledge of her (and that he will WANT to try to just fall in love with her all over again). In the end, Cat IS right, but the path taken for the couple to come back together is certainly not what Cat expects. First off, Cat has forgotten that Vincent might have trusted Cat before because HE HAD BEEN WATCHING HER FOR 9 YEARS. Thus, Vincent had some sort of basis to trust Cat. Plus, Cat keeps his secret right away. STILL, Vincent DOES have trust issues initially, as does Cat (such as Cat stealing Vincent's army photo). However, Cat in Season 1 AND in Season 2 always TRIES TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT and acknowledges her faults and shortcomings to others, particularly Vincent and Tess.

Cat's failure to even be open to Gabe about what she thinks or wants shows how she has taken a MAJOR setback in her character development. Cat briefly tries to be what someone else wants. After all, as she tells Vincent in her dream in 214 (which is her subconscious poking through), she and Vincent tried as hard as they could, but they couldn't make it work. So Catherine figures she will try another, less honest approach and try to be what someone else wants and see where that gets her. But one of the Most Important THEMES of BATB is to be true to oneself first, and then you can be better for others. And Catherine gets the point. Vincent values her because she is herself, faults and all. And vice versa. And Catherine says in 219 that she had feelings for Gabe when he was a man that "wanted to save others." It shows that what Catherine values the most is a man that has good values and cares for others and wants to help them, even at risk to one's own self. While shooting Vincent was probably the hardest thing Cat ever had to do, she ultimately kept Vincent from succumbing to his worst Beast rage and prevented him from cold-blooded murder. And Vincent IS grateful, much later, that Cat valued life. It causes Vincent to save Gabe in 221 because he can see that Cat can't live with having taken a life in the manner that it happened. Cat measures Gabe to the standard that she found in Vincent in Season 1. And Vincent does the same in what he is looking for in a partner. Both figure out that others don't measure up. And they value what they see in one another. And they value and appreciate the struggle and setbacks that come with trying to discover oneself and be a better person.

So I get what others say. There seemed to be more character setbacks than progress this season. BUT sometimes it takes such major regression to value the higher standard that one appreciates and strives to obtain. The point is how one overcomes the setbacks and faces the future. And 221 did show us that Catherine has a ways to go, but she is realizing what the past has cost her AND has someone committed to helping her with the future journey. And I am loving the potential future journey. And I still love these characters, faults and all.    

[jefferen]

Jul 27, 2014 19:26:34 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

I certainly get what others have said about Catherine and her character growth (or lack thereof) this season. I don't disagree. In fact, I think Catherine has a ways to go. However, that said, it is exactly WHERE CATHERINE IS now that has so much potential.

As others have pointed out (very correctly, I might add), Catherine really does seem to make some real headway during the Alex arc in Season 1 where she does realize the severity of her previous issues. Just because someone knows the problem doesn't mean that they know how to fix it. And that ends up being the beauty of Catherine. Catherine's way of coping ultimately turns out to be trying to help others, even when basically drowning herself. Granted, at the beginning of Season 2, in the very first episode, we see how the THING THAT ACTUALLY CAUSES CATHERINE to break down crying is NOT that Vincent is back or that his memory is gone. She cries when she realizes that Heather has just texted her asking if she is alright. Heather is obviously worried about Cat. And this is with Cat having let her down, once again, in order to go run off to check up on JT and find out what happened to Vincent. Cat knows, in that moment, what it has cost her and that she has let so many others down with her being basically unable to do anything for 3 months but look for Vincent. Catherine is disappointed in herself and is able to open up and admit to Vincent that she HAS lost so much and just can't lose him to.

And a damaged Cat does try to make a comeback and be the perfect girlfriend and friend. And she tries to give Gabe a real chance and even thanks him for all that he does to try to help her (see ending "Reunion" episode--the Gabe/Catherine conversation at the end). Cat tries to make others aware of how grateful she is to have them in her life. Cat is heartbreakingly transparent when it comes to her love and loyalty, even when she is not able to be at her best.

My best analogy for Catherine this season is to describe Cat as having a very dirty house. Now, rather than cleaning up her own mess, she runs over to her friend's and helps them clean up. While Cat may still have a very dirty house herself (and guess what, you can only ignore the mess for so long--sooner or later, if you don't get to your own clutter, the mice will descend), she has made someone else happy by helping to clean their own house.  So yes, Cat is still messed up. Vincent (correctly) pointed out that Catherine shouldn't always clean up other's mess. Catherine let her anger build up against Gabe until the point that when he tried to grab her, she escalated to the point that excessive force was used. That is what I mean by the mice descending. Catherine lets things build up until she literally "beasts out." So yes, Catherine still has a WAYS to go in her own character development. She has been trying to help Vincent and others to the point of ignoring her own issues, and that certainly shouldn't come to an end just because Season 2 is over. Cat MUST, at some point, clean up her own house and not just concentrate on others. However, what I LOVE about BATB is the point that Vincent RECOGNIZES this issue in Catherine, and he has appointed himself to help Cat clean up her own house. Vincent and Catherine realize that maybe you DON'T have to figure it all out by yourself and struggle on your own: you CAN depend on someone you love to identify your issues, love you in spite of them, and help you muddle your way to a Cleaner and Better Tomorrow. (And THAT, dear friends IS REALLY WHY I SO LOVE THIS SHOW!!!) Catherine can be flawed. As long as she recognizes it, tries to be better, and lets others in past her walls to help her succeed in her quest to better herself, then Cat HAS made character growth and development, despite the setbacks and failures that occur along the way.

So yes, I actually believe that a broken Cat from Season 1 became a more broken Cat in the opening of Season 2 after all the additional trauma. And every time that Cat tries to pick herself back off the floor, she gets knocked down again by something else unexpected. And Cat just tries to approach things in an almost "la la land" of "it will all work itself out" (or, as she defines in 221, the "easy breezy approach"). Cat just takes for granted that Vincent will just fall in love with her again, despite having no knowledge of her (and that he will WANT to try to just fall in love with her all over again). In the end, Cat IS right, but the path taken for the couple to come back together is certainly not what Cat expects. First off, Cat has forgotten that Vincent might have trusted Cat before because HE HAD BEEN WATCHING HER FOR 9 YEARS. Thus, Vincent had some sort of basis to trust Cat. Plus, Cat keeps his secret right away. STILL, Vincent DOES have trust issues initially, as does Cat (such as Cat stealing Vincent's army photo). However, Cat in Season 1 AND in Season 2 always TRIES TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT and acknowledges her faults and shortcomings to others, particularly Vincent and Tess.

Cat's failure to even be open to Gabe about what she thinks or wants shows how she has taken a MAJOR setback in her character development. Cat briefly tries to be what someone else wants. After all, as she tells Vincent in her dream in 214 (which is her subconscious poking through), she and Vincent tried as hard as they could, but they couldn't make it work. So Catherine figures she will try another, less honest approach and try to be what someone else wants and see where that gets her. But one of the Most Important THEMES of BATB is to be true to oneself first, and then you can be better for others. And Catherine gets the point. Vincent values her because she is herself, faults and all. And vice versa. And Catherine says in 219 that she had feelings for Gabe when he was a man that "wanted to save others." It shows that what Catherine values the most is a man that has good values and cares for others and wants to help them, even at risk to one's own self. While shooting Vincent was probably the hardest thing Cat ever had to do, she ultimately kept Vincent from succumbing to his worst Beast rage and prevented him from cold-blooded murder. And Vincent IS grateful, much later, that Cat valued life. It causes Vincent to save Gabe in 221 because he can see that Cat can't live with having taken a life in the manner that it happened. Cat measures Gabe to the standard that she found in Vincent in Season 1. And Vincent does the same in what he is looking for in a partner. Both figure out that others don't measure up. And they value what they see in one another. And they value and appreciate the struggle and setbacks that come with trying to discover oneself and be a better person.

So I get what others say. There seemed to be more character setbacks than progress this season. BUT sometimes it takes such major regression to value the higher standard that one appreciates and strives to obtain. The point is how one overcomes the setbacks and faces the future. And 221 did show us that Catherine has a ways to go, but she is realizing what the past has cost her AND has someone committed to helping her with the future journey. And I am loving the potential future journey. And I still love these characters, faults and all.    

Again, another amazing post. Thank You again!  Agree with everything

I do have to just add to your thoughts about Cat in the beginning of S2. I think Cat did take for granted that V would just automatically fall in love with her again. And of course they are destined, but she never gave V any time, real time to process who Cat is to him & to give V that opportunity to realize himself that he could trust Cat.  I really felt that Cat pushed really hard, too hard IMO to try and get V to remember her.  She had no patience with V and was constantly trying to find the V that was captured and make him into her Vincent was captured.  If she backed off a bit, things might have progressed a bit differently. I don't think Cat ever gave the "new" V a chance to prove himself. She was too focused on the V she lost.  I know she was overcompensating bc I think she feels that ot was her fault V was captured in the 1s place and knew that she wouldn't be able to bare losing V again, but I think it was way too much pressure. And in a round about way, her actions put more pressure on her bc like you said she hasn't really and truly dealt w/ any of the issues and problems, crisis's that Cat has faced.  

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

Jefferen,

I agree entirely with what you just said. Catherine alternately tries to hard and presses Vincent in the early episodes of Season 2 and then fails to be there for him when he actually needs her and comes to her. So we have those moments of disconnect and failure to launch between the two. Again, Catherine is too damaged and desperate and needy at the beginning of Season 2 to see what she is doing. And, like you said, I believe it was because Catherine blamed herself for why Vincent was captured. I really wish she would have vocalized that (and some other things) to Vincent. Again, Missed Opportunities becomes the name of the game for the first part of Season 2. While Catherine talks about "not wanting to go backwards" in 216, she fails to realize that so much of Vincent's frustration in early Season 2 is because Catherine instantaneously wants him to be what he can't even remember. She doesn't accept the person standing right in front of her. And that person BADLY needed acceptance or at least companionship and the chance to just be human by interacting with others. Catherine causes a breakdown in communication on multiple occasions because she always demands to know the very thing Vincent has been brainwashed/programmed not to reveal. Which is especially painful to the audience, because when Catherine is sweet, understanding and caring (like taking care of Vincent's wound in "Who Am I?") Vincent's programming slips, even if for only a moment. And he stays longer than he planned simply because he wants to know WHY this woman seems to have such a pull on him that he would stop in the middle of his mission (when said mission was at its highest chance of success) in order to save her.

Vincent's rage so quickly comes to the surface in early Season 2 episodes because he has forgotten the long struggle to obtain control over his beast side (and also, it is my belief that Reynolds would have tortured Vincent in order to break him so that he could then "build" a "better soldier" from the ground up. So naturally, barely concealed rage is almost all Vincent has--would be necessary in order to get him to automatically kill. So Vincent doesn't need to be directly challenged. Catherine has seen Vincent pull away when she asked questions throughout 201 and in early 202 on the roof. Vincent seems open to the idea of spending time with Cat until she starts questioning him, and then he leaps off the roof. And again, when Vincent returns to the roof at the end of 202, Cat just won't stop asking questions. And Vincent has so little control of his rage at this point that the Shove Heard Round the Beastie Universe occurs. And Vincent is obviously appalled by his actions and wants so badly to apologize and start over with Cat (I mean, the guy finally brings her flowers--something even Season 1 Vincent couldn't do without blacking out!). Then Vincent finds realizes that Cat had lied about accepting his apology just to break into his computer. And Vincent ALREADY had trust issues. When Cat is angry throughout Season 2, she behaves in the worst possible manner without taking stock of how she will view her actions when she is no longer "beasting out."

"Liar Liar" is such a painful episode for me to watch. There was so much potential for character growth in this one, and I feel that BOTH characters fail miserably, yet understandably. Both react with so much hurt towards the other--each goes directly for the jugular. HOWEVER, that said, you see how much the two mean to each other already just from the sheer amount of hurt coming off in waves from both Vincent and Catherine. Vincent so wants Cat in his life, even if he can't completely admit it. And in the dance scene, you just see the PASSION coming out of everything they are saying (yet are able to dance together flawlessly--no hesitation. No failure to relate to one another on a base, chemical level. They sizzle so close to the surface.). And the adrenalin rush FINALLY brings back flashes of Catherine to Vincent. And Vincent runs straight to Cat. And she shuts him out because she "can't deal" with the lies he told before (although, come on, SHE was the first to lie. Yes, she thought she had good reason. Still, Vincent was reacting to her lie and hurting her the way she hurt him. No understanding or giving by either individual.). 

I get why Cat shut Vincent out in "Liar Liar." However, this was the one time I wanted Cat to take that leap in character growth right in the moment and simply be there for Vincent, whether she thought he deserved it or not. Yes, Cat is right: their original relationship was not based on lies (except when it suited them in Season 1--both DID lie to each other to try to save the other in Season 1, however, again to protect and to wound the other). This moment was when Vincent needed her to take a leap of faith. After all, he remembered something. She should have let him in, or better yet, gone out on the fire escape as they used to do. Talk it out. Because that was one of the Hard-Earned Lessons from Season 1--talk it out or end up blowing up Muirfield's computers when you could have had that information had you worked together (all you beasties know what episode I am talking about). Vincent is continuously questioning whether or not he can trust Cat in 201 and 202 because she continually questions what he cannot comment on. Yet when Vincent is finally willing to talk because he DOES realize that Cat was a significant part of his former life, Cat won't push pause and at least try. Leaving BOTH Cat and Vincent in an enraged and simmering below the surface to the point that BOTH look for a fight in 204. The two are at their closest by the end of "Hothead" because they had the hospital scene and then talked things out and worked together. And while both start to push one another away at times during the episode, they talk their way through (Vincent doesn't kick Cat out of the boathouse even though told not to have contact with her that might bring on memories. Cat tells him she is not leaving because she cares and asks for the truth. And Vincent gives it to her, they plan, happy episode.). And Vincent admits at episode's end that it is amazing what a couple of memories and some HONESTY can do. Yet by "Reunion," we again have the discontent and disconnect back, with Cat having more than a little resentment built up. 

So yes, like the typical viewer, I sometimes admit to wanting to shake either Catherine or Vincent when I felt each was neglecting to build upon lessons that had been so hard-learned the first time around. Vincent gets the excuse of memory loss, torture and trauma. I mean, they freaking messed with his brain! And Cat gets a pass, in part, because she has lost so much on top of the torture and trauma she endured in Season 1. When you consider how very many close people Catherine lost in such a short period of time AND the fact that she would place blame on herself for many of the losses (her father maybe killed by Muirfield, Evan, Heather, Vincent, etc.), you get why Cat has such a short fuse and seems unable to carry over what she has learned. Catherine acts as if it is Vincent that has to do all the work to become a man he USED to be without understanding all that has happened to make him someone else entirely new that needed compassion and a chance to get to know her at his own pace. But one can certainly understand and sympathize with Catherine's situation as well.

So yeah, if this post is any indication, still dealing with all the baggage of Season 2. And while I would have readily ended "Liar Liar" in a different way, I fully admit that the beginning of "Hothead" would not have been nearly as funny. Vincent and Catherine can't deal with being separated, and BOTH go looking for a fight to deal with their frustrations. One punches out a Judge, and the other ends up in the hospital from the fight. Neither can handle their separation which just shows how already committed the two are to the relationship. Damaged, but fully committed. And the two NEVER let go of each other, even for a moment, even when Catherine is trying to say "Vincent who?" to Tess. So I couldn't stop watching. Watching the train wreck in progress made Season 2 something I couldn't miss, even at its most painful. Even when the charcters were falling madly backwards rather than forwards.    

[bookworm]

Wow! There is so much to read in this thread

I like these detailed analysis! Please go on, each of you give very interesting points of view!

[kiki09]

alwayscrazedbatbfan, that was some really good and thorough analysis. Thank you! I have a quick question: are you rewatching s2 and then analyzing a couple of eps at a time?

[rose]

Jul 27, 2014 21:27:23 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

Jefferen,

I agree entirely with what you just said. Catherine alternately tries to hard and presses Vincent in the early episodes of Season 2 and then fails to be there for him when he actually needs her and comes to her. So we have those moments of disconnect and failure to launch between the two. Again, Catherine is too damaged and desperate and needy at the beginning of Season 2 to see what she is doing. And, like you said, I believe it was because Catherine blamed herself for why Vincent was captured. I really wish she would have vocalized that (and some other things) to Vincent. Again, Missed Opportunities becomes the name of the game for the first part of Season 2. While Catherine talks about "not wanting to go backwards" in 216, she fails to realize that so much of Vincent's frustration in early Season 2 is because Catherine instantaneously wants him to be what he can't even remember. She doesn't accept the person standing right in front of her. And that person BADLY needed acceptance or at least companionship and the chance to just be human by interacting with others. Catherine causes a breakdown in communication on multiple occasions because she always demands to know the very thing Vincent has been brainwashed/programmed not to reveal. Which is especially painful to the audience, because when Catherine is sweet, understanding and caring (like taking care of Vincent's wound in "Who Am I?") Vincent's programming slips, even if for only a moment. And he stays longer than he planned simply because he wants to know WHY this woman seems to have such a pull on him that he would stop in the middle of his mission (when said mission was at its highest chance of success) in order to save her.

Vincent's rage so quickly comes to the surface in early Season 2 episodes because he has forgotten the long struggle to obtain control over his beast side (and also, it is my belief that Reynolds would have tortured Vincent in order to break him so that he could then "build" a "better soldier" from the ground up. So naturally, barely concealed rage is almost all Vincent has--would be necessary in order to get him to automatically kill. So Vincent doesn't need to be directly challenged. Catherine has seen Vincent pull away when she asked questions throughout 201 and in early 202 on the roof. Vincent seems open to the idea of spending time with Cat until she starts questioning him, and then he leaps off the roof. And again, when Vincent returns to the roof at the end of 202, Cat just won't stop asking questions. And Vincent has so little control of his rage at this point that the Shove Heard Round the Beastie Universe occurs. And Vincent is obviously appalled by his actions and wants so badly to apologize and start over with Cat (I mean, the guy finally brings her flowers--something even Season 1 Vincent couldn't do without blacking out!). Then Vincent finds realizes that Cat had lied about accepting his apology just to break into his computer. And Vincent ALREADY had trust issues. When Cat is angry throughout Season 2, she behaves in the worst possible manner without taking stock of how she will view her actions when she is no longer "beasting out."

"Liar Liar" is such a painful episode for me to watch. There was so much potential for character growth in this one, and I feel that BOTH characters fail miserably, yet understandably. Both react with so much hurt towards the other--each goes directly for the jugular. HOWEVER, that said, you see how much the two mean to each other already just from the sheer amount of hurt coming off in waves from both Vincent and Catherine. Vincent so wants Cat in his life, even if he can't completely admit it. And in the dance scene, you just see the PASSION coming out of everything they are saying (yet are able to dance together flawlessly--no hesitation. No failure to relate to one another on a base, chemical level. They sizzle so close to the surface.). And the adrenalin rush FINALLY brings back flashes of Catherine to Vincent. And Vincent runs straight to Cat. And she shuts him out because she "can't deal" with the lies he told before (although, come on, SHE was the first to lie. Yes, she thought she had good reason. Still, Vincent was reacting to her lie and hurting her the way she hurt him. No understanding or giving by either individual.). 

I get why Cat shut Vincent out in "Liar Liar." However, this was the one time I wanted Cat to take that leap in character growth right in the moment and simply be there for Vincent, whether she thought he deserved it or not. Yes, Cat is right: their original relationship was not based on lies (except when it suited them in Season 1--both DID lie to each other to try to save the other in Season 1, however, again to protect and to wound the other). This moment was when Vincent needed her to take a leap of faith. After all, he remembered something. She should have let him in, or better yet, gone out on the fire escape as they used to do. Talk it out. Because that was one of the Hard-Earned Lessons from Season 1--talk it out or end up blowing up Muirfield's computers when you could have had that information had you worked together (all you beasties know what episode I am talking about). Vincent is continuously questioning whether or not he can trust Cat in 201 and 202 because she continually questions what he cannot comment on. Yet when Vincent is finally willing to talk because he DOES realize that Cat was a significant part of his former life, Cat won't push pause and at least try. Leaving BOTH Cat and Vincent in an enraged and simmering below the surface to the point that BOTH look for a fight in 204. The two are at their closest by the end of "Hothead" because they had the hospital scene and then talked things out and worked together. And while both start to push one another away at times during the episode, they talk their way through (Vincent doesn't kick Cat out of the boathouse even though told not to have contact with her that might bring on memories. Cat tells him she is not leaving because she cares and asks for the truth. And Vincent gives it to her, they plan, happy episode.). And Vincent admits at episode's end that it is amazing what a couple of memories and some HONESTY can do. Yet by "Reunion," we again have the discontent and disconnect back, with Cat having more than a little resentment built up. 

So yes, like the typical viewer, I sometimes admit to wanting to shake either Catherine or Vincent when I felt each was neglecting to build upon lessons that had been so hard-learned the first time around. Vincent gets the excuse of memory loss, torture and trauma. I mean, they freaking messed with his brain! And Cat gets a pass, in part, because she has lost so much on top of the torture and trauma she endured in Season 1. When you consider how very many close people Catherine lost in such a short period of time AND the fact that she would place blame on herself for many of the losses (her father maybe killed by Muirfield, Evan, Heather, Vincent, etc.), you get why Cat has such a short fuse and seems unable to carry over what she has learned. Catherine acts as if it is Vincent that has to do all the work to become a man he USED to be without understanding all that has happened to make him someone else entirely new that needed compassion and a chance to get to know her at his own pace. But one can certainly understand and sympathize with Catherine's situation as well.

So yeah, if this post is any indication, still dealing with all the baggage of Season 2. And while I would have readily ended "Liar Liar" in a different way, I fully admit that the beginning of "Hothead" would not have been nearly as funny. Vincent and Catherine can't deal with being separated, and BOTH go looking for a fight to deal with their frustrations. One punches out a Judge, and the other ends up in the hospital from the fight. Neither can handle their separation which just shows how already committed the two are to the relationship. Damaged, but fully committed. And the two NEVER let go of each other, even for a moment, even when Catherine is trying to say "Vincent who?" to Tess. So I couldn't stop watching. Watching the train wreck in progress made Season 2 something I couldn't miss, even at its most painful. Even when the charcters were falling madly backwards rather than forwards.    

I like your analysis and completely agree

[anapi -season3baby :)]

hi everyone - loved reading all the analysis above and completely agree with all the points made alwayscrazedbatbfan and jefferen