The Everything Thread-READ ME!

[Mrs Forbes Glass Half Full]

Jul 3, 2014 17:02:00 GMT -5 devin said:

Jul 3, 2014 14:50:29 GMT -5 Mrs Forbes Glass Half Full said:

This is the place for it !!

I agree with a lot of what you said.

I love Season 2 but I am still 'In Love' with Season 1.

Season 2 has spent too much of each episode on things I wasn't invested in . Not bothered about Gabe's redemption, or other love interests or beasts of the week. I don't find myself re-watching Season 2 like I did /do with Season 1.
I don't understand the writers apparent lack of understanding as to what the fandom would tolerate!! I know that they had a story they wanted to tell but really-- love triangles in a story about epic love between a beauty and her beast!!! The chemistry between VinCat needed a decent story to propel it forward. I wanted history and mythology!!! I still find it difficult to understand why they seem clueless on what works and what doesn't. I thought they had sorted that out in Season 1.

I second this. The writer spent way too much focusing on Gabe's character and as a result, Tess and JT's storylines were pushed to the background. IMO Gabe should not have become a main character.

OMG Snap
I said pretty much the same in another thread.
I liked Gabe as a minor character but I could not make myself care about his quest for redemption and subsequent fall. I felt his character was given too much attention at the expense of JT and Tess.

[jefferen]

Jul 2, 2014 15:22:46 GMT -5 vincat4always said:

Ok so here's my two cents on Season 1 VS season 2.

I myself prefer season 2 over season 1 and here's why:

Season 1 was  very ansgty in my book. First we had the Vincent and Cat push and bull for a better part of the season. There was so many times when they could have finally kissed, there was many times Vincent was about to tell Cat about how he felt and then cat would say something he took the wrong way and then we we're back to scratch. Then finally when we are getting somewhere more DRAMA. We had Evan, and I'm sorry I'm a Vincat fan all the way but I loved Evan, he was a good guy through and through. Yes he was a torn in their side, but in the end he sacrificed himself for the women he loved because he knew he couldn't protect her and Vincent could. Then when Cat finally confesses her feeling to Vincent and how she wants to be with him, his reaction was he wants to be the person he used to be? no reaction to what she just said but that with Alex he could be who he wants to be. SMACK. Then after all that is said and done we finally got our kiss but not before he tried to break up with her and the Heather drama. I personally enjoyed much better the later episodes of season 1 then the beginning. I wasn't around in the beginning as I only stumbled upon the show cuz I was bored one ay and watched the whole series but if I would have been around I would have gotten bored of the push and pull and stopped watching probably returned at a later time but I was getting annoyed when I was watching the show one after another.

Season 2 is a much better season in my book, yes it did have its focus on Vincat but there was more plot lines as well. Not that much angst as in season 1. We had Daddy Reynolds and his hit list, then the memory wipe, Tori and Gabe. People stopped watching the show cuz they wanted their Vincat loving week after week. And fi we would of had that, trust me you guys would have been bored. There is no show without angst or drama. I enjoyed Vincent's memory wipe and him then wanting to win Cat back. One of my favourite scenes is that window scenes when Cat tells him she can't take anymore lies. I stand by what I said many times, the Vincent going darker storyline HAD to be done. It's just one of those things that had to be explored and they couldn't do it when Vincent was madly in love with Cat but it would just kill the show and their whole destined to be together and what better way to do it then when his memory is wiped. This way they kill 2 birds with one stone. Tori was a pain in the ass, but not for the fact she was a love interest to Vincent cuz she wasn't. Vincent never liked the poor girl and she was clinging onto him like a lost puppy dog and he was only with her cuz he felt sorry for her. I don't know how you guys think he chose Tori over Cat, he chose BEAST over Cat not Tori. Plus he was only technically with her for what 2 episodes? Ancestors and then Held Hostage and then she died and eve when he was with her,he wasn't. In Ancestors, he was all jealous when he saw her kissing Patrick(who again I liked) and then in Held Hostage well there was scenes where it was clear he sitll had a thing for Cat. Example: When Gabe told him Cat was waiting for him, then when Gabe told Vincent Cat was inside where to Hostage takers were. The changing moment in that episode was when Cat turned off the lights to protect him, and from then on we had the old Vincent back. The next episode, he couldn't deny to Tori he didn't want her back and then there scene about being friends which is my second favourite scene of the whole series. He even broke up with the girl after that cause he and Tori both knew how he felt towards Cat. And then we had the scene of him saying he made a mistake when he chose BEAST not Tori. So when people say Tori died and he went back to Cat is a load of you know what, it was clear well before Tori died that he was never over Cat to begin with not for one second. Anyways I didn't want to go into this whole Tori arc thing so I'm going to continue here. Then we had the whole Gabe arc which to me, he was a horrible love interest, they should have used Patrick. Gabe's character was so not for Cat not just cause he tried to kill Vincent but he's just not Cat's type but she needed to move on from Vincent and used him as a rebound but just by the way she kissed the guy you knew she didn't really give a crap about him. There was no future there at all. Then from Catch me if you can up until now I've loved every single episode.

As for the love scenes, I personally much rather these little love bits like the one we had in 221 and then again in 219. When we get a love scene, there's no little lovey dovey scene for a while but when you get these small scenes they give you more of that. And be real people don't tell me you watch the show for a love scene cuz if you wanted that well I wont tell you where to go but you know where to go. Everyone wants angst that's what makes it a GREAT show. And the fact that week after week, we have people complaining is the simple fact that that is what the show is about. The reactions we get is what makes this show a great show and will continue to be. I don't need a love making scene; I much rather have the fluff.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get some slack for all of what I just said but just the way I see it.

Loved and agree with everything you said!!!

[iona]

Jul 3, 2014 21:50:57 GMT -5 jefferen said:

Jul 2, 2014 15:22:46 GMT -5 vincat4always said:

Ok so here's my two cents on Season 1 VS season 2.

I myself prefer season 2 over season 1 and here's why:

Season 1 was  very ansgty in my book. First we had the Vincent and Cat push and bull for a better part of the season. There was so many times when they could have finally kissed, there was many times Vincent was about to tell Cat about how he felt and then cat would say something he took the wrong way and then we we're back to scratch. Then finally when we are getting somewhere more DRAMA. We had Evan, and I'm sorry I'm a Vincat fan all the way but I loved Evan, he was a good guy through and through. Yes he was a torn in their side, but in the end he sacrificed himself for the women he loved because he knew he couldn't protect her and Vincent could. Then when Cat finally confesses her feeling to Vincent and how she wants to be with him, his reaction was he wants to be the person he used to be? no reaction to what she just said but that with Alex he could be who he wants to be. SMACK. Then after all that is said and done we finally got our kiss but not before he tried to break up with her and the Heather drama. I personally enjoyed much better the later episodes of season 1 then the beginning. I wasn't around in the beginning as I only stumbled upon the show cuz I was bored one ay and watched the whole series but if I would have been around I would have gotten bored of the push and pull and stopped watching probably returned at a later time but I was getting annoyed when I was watching the show one after another.

Season 2 is a much better season in my book, yes it did have its focus on Vincat but there was more plot lines as well. Not that much angst as in season 1. We had Daddy Reynolds and his hit list, then the memory wipe, Tori and Gabe. People stopped watching the show cuz they wanted their Vincat loving week after week. And fi we would of had that, trust me you guys would have been bored. There is no show without angst or drama. I enjoyed Vincent's memory wipe and him then wanting to win Cat back. One of my favourite scenes is that window scenes when Cat tells him she can't take anymore lies. I stand by what I said many times, the Vincent going darker storyline HAD to be done. It's just one of those things that had to be explored and they couldn't do it when Vincent was madly in love with Cat but it would just kill the show and their whole destined to be together and what better way to do it then when his memory is wiped. This way they kill 2 birds with one stone. Tori was a pain in the ass, but not for the fact she was a love interest to Vincent cuz she wasn't. Vincent never liked the poor girl and she was clinging onto him like a lost puppy dog and he was only with her cuz he felt sorry for her. I don't know how you guys think he chose Tori over Cat, he chose BEAST over Cat not Tori. Plus he was only technically with her for what 2 episodes? Ancestors and then Held Hostage and then she died and eve when he was with her,he wasn't. In Ancestors, he was all jealous when he saw her kissing Patrick(who again I liked) and then in Held Hostage well there was scenes where it was clear he sitll had a thing for Cat. Example: When Gabe told him Cat was waiting for him, then when Gabe told Vincent Cat was inside where to Hostage takers were. The changing moment in that episode was when Cat turned off the lights to protect him, and from then on we had the old Vincent back. The next episode, he couldn't deny to Tori he didn't want her back and then there scene about being friends which is my second favourite scene of the whole series. He even broke up with the girl after that cause he and Tori both knew how he felt towards Cat. And then we had the scene of him saying he made a mistake when he chose BEAST not Tori. So when people say Tori died and he went back to Cat is a load of you know what, it was clear well before Tori died that he was never over Cat to begin with not for one second. Anyways I didn't want to go into this whole Tori arc thing so I'm going to continue here. Then we had the whole Gabe arc which to me, he was a horrible love interest, they should have used Patrick. Gabe's character was so not for Cat not just cause he tried to kill Vincent but he's just not Cat's type but she needed to move on from Vincent and used him as a rebound but just by the way she kissed the guy you knew she didn't really give a crap about him. There was no future there at all. Then from Catch me if you can up until now I've loved every single episode.

As for the love scenes, I personally much rather these little love bits like the one we had in 221 and then again in 219. When we get a love scene, there's no little lovey dovey scene for a while but when you get these small scenes they give you more of that. And be real people don't tell me you watch the show for a love scene cuz if you wanted that well I wont tell you where to go but you know where to go. Everyone wants angst that's what makes it a GREAT show. And the fact that week after week, we have people complaining is the simple fact that that is what the show is about. The reactions we get is what makes this show a great show and will continue to be. I don't need a love making scene; I much rather have the fluff.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get some slack for all of what I just said but just the way I see it.

Loved and agree with everything you said!!!

  I agree with you but except one thing
Tori's scene. I think vincent totally attractive to tori (sexually). So vincent easilly gave up (ep.7) relationship with cat that time, that place (montak?). It reminds me break up tori'scene from ep.12 (ummm sour)
Some people said break up with cat scene from ep.7 that he did it intentionally[on purpose]. ummmm I don't think so.
Vincent just don't need cat anymore because tori wanting him there. Only person who like him as beast.
And after bomb scene i think that  he was a grey zone. he has a two options. Cat suggested don't cross the line and tori suggested cross the line and then vicent choose tori. I can't separate vincent's choose beast and choose tori.
They are the one set. That's why vincent sex with tori. That's why vincent live together with tori.
If vincent choose cat then that fact  is just vincent choose humanity? Vincent choose humanity and cat just like a trophy? like tori? I don't think so. I think tori effected to vincent beast something and last horrible choose thing is vincent's pure choice.
Because vincent attracted to tori...like other earth man  attracted other earth woman. That's brad kern whoever said before in some article.( vinent & tori's beast connection that (of course) never had with cat.)
unfortunately that beast something connection doesn't work well...like vincent&cat's human something connection broken by tori.
Whatever yeah~ vincent back to catherine anyway. Yeah~ happy.
Jay ryan's s2 vincent is hot, hot,hot (but still I don't understand. why jay ryan erased whlole s1 vincent. I know he is very sweet now but still feel's like...jay ryan's the other role the other drama not s1. at least cat is cat of course sometimes crazy catherine or sleep with gabe.. ...yeah pathetic I know  but still looks like cat)

And patrick...I always like him.. still thought better than gabe as cat's new love.

If they good handle this arc and characters like tori(I like her. confess even I like her song. It's a really good song and really pretty) gabe (I like his private life as gabe...like club scene ep.2. club door man knows gabe. I like that line) patrick (I looooooooove him. he's like a bear? slow but pure man? I don't know. but I know he's a cat's type)
and Tess...tess, tess our lovely tess. I think if they used tess& cat& new boss as triangle then it woude be huge funny scene.
(I mean not not sexually...;
Yeah~ S2 has a good moment. I like that but...still bitter sweet some reason.


Please s3...I hope we'll have ex·cel·lent moment whole season and good characters & story.

Usually I'm so sorry  for my bad English. 
I'm done s2. yeah~ no more opinion. I'm looking for s3 with open heart.

[SpydancerLovesVincat]

Jul 6, 2014 10:05:58 GMT -5 iona said:

Jul 3, 2014 21:50:57 GMT -5 jefferen said:

Loved and agree with everything you said!!!

  I agree with you but except one thing
Tori's scene. I think vincent totally attractive to tori (sexually). So vincent easilly gave up (ep.7) relationship with cat that time, that place (montak?). It reminds me break up tori'scene from ep.12 (ummm sour)
Some people said break up with cat scene from ep.7 that he did it intentionally[on purpose]. ummmm I don't think so.
Vincent just don't need cat anymore because tori wanting him there. Only person who like him as beast.
And after bomb scene i think that  he was a grey zone. he has a two options. Cat suggested don't cross the line and tori suggested cross the line and then vicent choose tori. I can't separate vincent's choose beast and choose tori.
They are the one set. That's why vincent sex with tori. That's why vincent live together with tori.
If vincent choose cat then that fact  is just vincent choose humanity? Vincent choose humanity and cat just like a trophy? like tori? I don't think so. I think tori effected to vincent beast something and last horrible choose thing is vincent's pure choice.
Because vincent attracted to tori...like other earth man  attracted other earth woman. That's brad kern whoever said before in some article.( vinent & tori's beast connection that (of course) never had with cat.)
unfortunately that beast something connection doesn't work well...like vincent&cat's human something connection broken by tori.
Whatever yeah~ vincent back to catherine anyway. Yeah~ happy.
Jay ryan's s2 vincent is hot, hot,hot (but still I don't understand. why jay ryan erased whlole s1 vincent. I know he is very sweet now but still feel's like...jay ryan's the other role the other drama not s1. at least cat is cat of course sometimes crazy catherine or sleep with gabe.. ...yeah pathetic I know  but still looks like cat)

And patrick...I always like him.. still thought better than gabe as cat's new love.

If they good handle this arc and characters like tori(I like her. confess even I like her song. It's a really good song and really pretty) gabe (I like his private life as gabe...like club scene ep.2. club door man knows gabe. I like that line) patrick (I looooooooove him. he's like a bear? slow but pure man? I don't know. but I know he's a cat's type)
and Tess...tess, tess our lovely tess. I think if they used tess& cat& new boss as triangle then it woude be huge funny scene.
(I mean not not sexually...;
Yeah~ S2 has a good moment. I like that but...still bitter sweet some reason.


Please s3...I hope we'll have ex·cel·lent moment whole season and good characters & story.

Usually I'm so sorry  for my bad English. 
I'm done s2. yeah~ no more opinion. I'm looking for s3 with open heart.

Yeah, I definitely agree that they were going for the beast on beast animal attraction between Tori and Vincent. Or at least that is what I thought I saw happening in the beginning of that arc. The fact that B. Kern and TPTB described that "Tori and Vincent would have something that he and Catherine never had" - well I had a big problem with this. It was obvious to everyone who watches this show that VinCat had great sexual chemistry. This is why the idea for the Tori arc never worked for me to begin with - what part about "animal attraction" trumps the amazing attraction VinCat had to begin with? It was like the elephant in the room. Tori could not be this sexual lioness to Vincent, because he had already found his sexual match in Catherine. The fact that they fell in love (VinCat), well that didn't change the fact that the sexual chemistry was there. B. Kern could not go back and rewrite VinCat from S1, which made the whole animal attraction/Tori arc completely ridonculous to me. They needed another "angle" to make the she-beast thing work. But the fact that he already found his sexual mate in Catherine kind of poked holes in the ship of fools that was the Tori arc. That ship was NEVER going to float for me.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

What Brad Kern originally must have envisioned for the Tori-Beast angle and what ended up happening just never gelled. First off, by implying that the "primal pull" between Tori-Beast and Vincent-Beast was more powerful than anything that could be had with a human appeared as a direct slap to the epic love that transcended all. Obviously, that was not going to work if the VinCat love was truly epic in every sense. What played out on our screens was designed to show us that a cerebral attraction based on intellectual compatibility as well as chemical, emotional and sexual compatibility was far more satisfying than any animal-based initial beast attraction could ever be. I would have liked the statements made front and center by the characters so that NO DOUBT was left in the viewers' minds, but at least we were given the actions of the various characters that ultimately support this. And the "thing" that Tori and Vincent had turned out to be nothing but empty sex based on isolation, mutual anger and need for revenge that the two characters were going through at the time. So Brad Kern was right in a sense, a "primal pull" based on anger and almost beast insanity and selfishness led only to an uneasy alliance of sorts that never felt right to even the characters themselves. Tori comments on how she is losing Vincent right there at the beginning of their relationship despite her moving herself into the boathouse and spending every night in Vincent's bed. Vincent can't wait to get out of said bed in order to call Catherine, which is commented upon by Tori. And Vincent tells Tori that her beast power basically "messes with his head" and affects his judgment to the point that he wants AWAY from her and time apart in order to "clear his head." Clearly, there is no "satisfaction" enough to keep Vincent with Tori. And we see that all Vincent has done is tap into his "dark Beast side" while being with Tori, something which Vincent will articulate in episode 216 that only led to grief and sorrow for him. Vincent cannot even deny to Tori that he does not want back with Catherine.  

And Vincent is awkward in all of his conversations with Tori in 212. As mentioned above, he can't deny that he wants back with Catherine and that he feels his head is foggy and not right with Tori. And Vincent IMMEDIATELY needs to go and discuss the situation with Catherine, which is not awkward. Vincent can naturally relate his troubles and be understood by Catherine, which leads him to ask her if they are, indeed, just friends. This question by Vincent seems to mean, at least by him, that he actually would want to be more again to Catherine, but she interprets it as "better than enemies." Cat's seeming to be better without him, something that is a re-emergence of Vincent's insecurities from Season 1, keeps Vincent from pressing the issue with Cat then and later leads Cat to "move on" because she thinks Vincent has done so (don't get me started on this. I didn't like Cat with Gabe any better than anyone else, and I won't deal with it here again. This was simply desperation to have something normal without pain and to end the trauma, etc. for Cat so that she could think that she had moved on. Sigh.).


So Beast-sex for Vincent just ultimately proved to be empty, awkward, and kept Vincent from what he really wanted, which was to finally get things right with Cat. It clearly NEVER met Vincent's needs. Vincent never smiles at Tori, never seems comfortable with Tori, and never wants to rush back off to the bedroom with Tori even when she is trying to give a hint in early 212. Vincent never even approaches anything close to happiness with Tori ever.  

And I loved how we got to see that Cat DID meet ALL of Vincent's needs, including sexually. A "satisfied" Vincent from his activities with Cat is clearly worn out and sleeps like the dead. I mean, Vincent's beast senses can't wake him up after Catherine sneaks out in 216, even after she drops her boot on the floor. And Vincent's look and description of sex from 215 to JT in 216 show that he clearly enjoyed what had happened the evening before with Cat and that it "meant something" to him. And once Vincent knows that Cat clearly still has unresolved feelings for him as a result of said sex, Vincent becomes determined that nothing and no one will keep him and Cat apart moving forward. And Vincent and Cat CLEARLY spent a whole DAY in suburbia making up for lost time since Vincent and Cat don't even unload the car of their possessions until the morning AFTER they have arrived. And Vincent comes down the steps and into the kitchen all bubbly both nights after having been with Cat in suburbia, and again, Vincent slept through Catherine getting up BOTH nights to 1) read crime reports and look for what going on in NY after night 1 and 2) go question the cops and neighbors after the murder for night 2. And Vincent and Cat clearly were enjoying a last romp in the NY hostel in 221 before heading back to Cat's place, where they apparently enjoyed a Second Round in Cat's bed, as Vincent is only in briefs and a robe the next morning while cooking Cat breakfast. And Vincent is clearly SO HAPPY in their domestic activities, as we see him wanting to make breakfast for Cat both in suburbia and in her apartment. I mean, JT comments on the fact that NEITHER Vincent or Catherine answered their phones to learn that Gabe had become a Beast again because the two were clearly doing other things with their whole night and early morning. And from 216 forward, Vincent has repeatedly commented on being meant to be with Catherine and on their having a future together.

And I will say it here:  it is SO CUTE that Vincent CANNOT stay mad at Cat either in suburbia or in 222 for her having locked him up or been obsessed with the journal and unable to relax. Vincent is just so darn happy to be living with Catherine that he seems as much in love with her obsessive compulsiveness to look for things to worry about, although Cat is usually right in being worried, as being irritated with her for failing to enjoy the moment. And when Cat finally surrenders to just enjoying the moment with Vincent and SAYING that this is what she wants to do for the foreseeable future, the two just kiss to their heart's content at the end of 222. Catherine will undoubtedly be worried for what comes next by the time we see her in Season 3, but Vincent is all about contentment with exactly what he has. Tomorrow's problems can come for Vincent, but he does not have a worry or care about it as he has EXACTLY what he wants. So much for the "primal pull" of Beast sex and having something with Tori that he did not have with Catherine--it was only empty awkwardness and deep sorrow and regret.    

[Suzieq ❤️ Beastie]

Jul 8, 2014 15:52:39 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

And I loved how we got to see that Cat DID meet ALL of Vincent's needs, including sexually. A "satisfied" Vincent from his activities with Cat is clearly worn out and sleeps like the dead. I mean, Vincent's beast senses can't wake him up after Catherine sneaks out in 216, even after she drops her boot on the floor. And Vincent's look and description of sex from 215 to JT in 216 show that he clearly enjoyed what had happened the evening before with Cat and that it "meant something" to him. And once Vincent knows that Cat clearly still has unresolved feelings for him as a result of said sex, Vincent becomes determined that nothing and no one will keep him and Cat apart moving forward. And Vincent and Cat CLEARLY spent a whole DAY in suburbia making up for lost time since Vincent and Cat don't even unload the car of their possessions until the morning AFTER they have arrived. And Vincent comes down the steps and into the kitchen all bubbly both nights after having been with Cat in suburbia, and again, Vincent slept through Catherine getting up BOTH nights to 1) read crime reports and look for what going on in NY after night 1 and 2) go question the cops and neighbors after the murder for night 2. And Vincent and Cat clearly were enjoying a last romp in the NY hostel in 221 before heading back to Cat's place, where they apparently enjoyed a Second Round in Cat's bed, as Vincent is only in briefs and a robe the next morning while cooking Cat breakfast. And Vincent is clearly SO HAPPY in their domestic activities, as we see him wanting to make breakfast for Cat both in suburbia and in her apartment. I mean, JT comments on the fact that NEITHER Vincent or Catherine answered their phones to learn that Gabe had become a Beast again because the two were clearly doing other things with their whole night and early morning. And from 216 forward, Vincent has repeatedly commented on being meant to be with Catherine and on their having a future together.

All that VinCat Sex that we didn't get even a small glimpse of ...............

I would have been happy with just ONE scene like we had in Season 1........all the passion these two have for one another ............and they FINALLY get back together several times in Season 2...... and we never really experience it. It is a letdown. If some were satisfied with all the VinCat together scenes, more power to you........but to me it was unrealistic to not have these two come together in a very intimate way this season at least once. We saw more with Vincent and Gabriella.....honestly. The shower scene was cute but really?.......fully clothed?

I am going to rematch the season and will count how many times VinCat kissed and got interrupted too? These two get interrupted more times it is almost silly.

[cacosa]

I think you, alwayscrazedbatbfan, should have a meeting with Brad and all the writers. I love how you see the inside of each character, and dissect everything that happens in the series. Your post always make me ponder and viewing some things from another perspective and with much more clarity.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

I definitely agree that "Held Hostage" was the definitive turning point for Season 2 in regards to the VinCat relationship. Vincent was so enraged and hurt from Bio Dad Reynolds' actions and what had happened to his memories and life, and Tori literally walked in at the very moment to manipulate this situation. I also think that while Vincent had continued to regain memories, he was unsure of how to INTERPRET those memories. As Vincent tells Gabe at the boathouse, he cannot trust any of them. Cat's bio parents either altered his DNA or his literal functioning/programming. And while seemingly unfair to pin some of her parents' seeming bad acts on her, I believe Vincent at this time saw Cat as trying to "save" her father and not necessarily him.

It also still comes back to Extreme Trauma for both Vincent and Tori. Tori's father had been becoming "worse" for 3 years, per Tori. (I address this more below. For now, sticking with the trauma angle.) Yet he is the only family Tori has left, and Daddy Windsor is CLEARLY abusive, as seen in the way he chokes and threatens Tori for simply having left the upper floor DOOR open (although he DOES prove to be right in that someone has come to kill him as a result of knowing about this nightly flaw). Tori has been kept completely isolated and is socially awkward and has no one to trust. She loves and fears her father and finds out that he has actually had a Tracking Device installed IN HER SKIN as if she were a dog. (Yeah, yeah I know. I find comparisons to being a dog quite fitting for Tori given all of her actions.) You actually PITY Tori in the first episode that she appears. Vincent tells Tori that he is NOT like her father BECAUSE he has someone in his life, and Tori correctly later guesses that this is Catherine. At this point, Tori is still a potentially sweet girl that just needs guidance and direction, particularly in regards to her newly emerging Beast powers.  In order to create a Love Triangle that fans ultimately despised, the Writers really missed a golden opportunity to have Catherine be a surrogate Mother to Tori and an example of what a VinCat child might be like had Catherine and Vincent both taken Tori under their wings, one to guide and help adjust socially to the human world and the other to help guide in the Beast realm. HOWEVER, the Writers chose to have Tori undergo the VERY traumatic witnessing of the Death of a parent right in front of her (Catherine experienced this as well, would have been a common bond. However, the person that saved Cat was Vincent while the person that murdered Tori's father was Vincent--a very different version of Vincent who had been programmed to kill and seemingly relish said kills). And Tori goes all Stockholm Syndrome by bonding with her kidnapper and lusting after the guy that killed her father. Talk about bad reaction to trauma. Yet Vincent was the only one that could understand her situation. Still creeps me the freak out considering we never saw Vincent apologize or be sorry for the death of Curtis Windsor, no matter how bad the man actually was. His daughter still supposedly loved him, and Vincent simply acts as if it was fully justified, case closed. And Tori wants to believe this too in order to get over the pain of the loss of the last significant person in her old life.   

I also think from the clues left in earlier episodes that Tori had slowly been becoming a "beast" in enough of a manner to further accelerate her father's own beastliness for the past three years prior without having known what she was doing or becoming. We see how Tori's father had sequestered her away and kept her from others supposedly to "protect" Tori in much the same way that Gabe seeks to "protect" Catherine. All of this occurred by the time Tori's mother was dying, per Tori, and her mother had tried to warn her. However, if Tori's mother was unaware of the true beast genes interacting, she would not have realized that the "beast affect" most likely went both ways. Both Gabe and Daddy Windsor think that they must "protect" the "little woman" from the world and that only their way of protection matters. What Tori or Catherine actually feel is irrelevant--it is all about their inner Beast needs and desires. Catherine falls under Gabe's influence when she does because she is looking for a Vincent replacement:  a guy that wants to save others at the cost of even his own life. Tori is also looking for someone to cling to and look up to who will save, protect and love her. Tori thinks that the "primal pull" of beast/sex will bind Vincent to her. She finds almost immediately that it will do no such thing. And Tori even comments how Vincent has not promised her a future. But Tori thinks that the "relationship" that she has offered Vincent is something to build upon, yet after Tori sees Vincent in a room with Catherine and Vincent's friends, she realizes that she does not fit in and that she is losing Vincent no matter what she does. She can hear his heartbeat BECAUSE Vincent did mentor her and teach her how to tap into some of her abilities. Thus, she knows that Vincent's heart beats for Catherine when they are in a room together (and obviously, by comparison, his heart does not speed up for her. Again, another argument that Beast Sex is not any kind of powerful connection in a way that simply being in a room wtih Catherine, even when with others when the focus was supposed to be on JT, will do for Vincent.)

The whole Tori Debacle did appear to be what propelled Cat to finally jump into a relationship prematurely with Gabe. Like Tori, I think Cat just wanted to end her pain and to have something potentially meaningful to try to build towards. Yet being wisked away to Mexico proves to have no real romance for Cat. Yet Cat can't yet figure out what that meant. In her conversation wtih Tess, she tries to chalk it up to being distracted by trying to have Gabe play dead and figure out the next move to make regarding Sam. Yet the moment she has alcohol in her system, she calls Gabe "Vincent." Again, goes along with MY interpretation that Cat was just looking for what appeared to be like Vincent. And Gabe, AT THAT TIME, appeared to fit the bill. Gabe appeared to genuinely be seeking redemption in the same way that Vincent did all Season 1. And Gabe appeared to be trying to protect people, save others, and prosecute criminals IN THE RIGHT WAY for justice, unlike Vincent, who was taking the law into his own hands at that time. As Cat said in "Ancestors," she wanted to get back to the life she had before Vincent when she went undercover and was all about helping and saving people herself. Her catching the bad guys and Gabe prosecuting them may also trigger Cat's own memories of the Father that raised her who spent so much of his own time in helping others in need of legal services in order to be protected (like from domestic violence) and have better lives. Served her sense of justice.

Taken from this viewpoint, the Gabe/Catherine and Vincent/Tori angles make some sort of perverted logical sense, given the trauma experienced by Vincent and Catherine (and Tori and Gabe) at this pont. Since VinCat are strong in their Love now and don't appear to have any doubts on the surface, one HAS to wonder what will happen when New Experimented-On Humans that have become Beasts or other creatures enter into the pictue in Season 3. No matter how secure she thinks she is, let the first Woman She-Beast appear on the scene that has been traumatized and is in need of help and guidance and someone to depend on who looks at Vincent as a potential savior appear on the scene, and I believe that Catherine WILL end up with undealt-with insecurities lingering from the whole Tori Debacle. She will wonder how Vincent will "mentor" such a person, given how the relationship went with Tori. Again, this is Normal Couple issues, as it will bring to the surface the fact that Vincent cheated on their love in the past after becoming involved with a person in need of "mentoring." And Vincent will HAVE to address the Tori stuff. I believe that this Issue will have to occur in Season 3 UNLESS only men are experimented on. And really, what message does THAT send out?

And another issue will be how Vincent decides whether to kill or help someone adjust/rehabilitate to society. This should trigger BOTH of Catherine and Vincent's previous issues as it brings the haunting issue of Gabe back into the foreground. After all, just cold-blooded killing Gabe would have been a risk to Vincent's soul and humanity.  HOWEVER, not killing Gabe when presented wtih the chance gave Gabe the chance to take the serum and kill other decent human beings. So knowing when to act AND when to kill or imprison rather than rehabilitate will really cause issues both between VinCat and the agents that they work with. So both the Gabe AND Tori issues have potential to rear their ugly heads in the potential New Beasts that are presented in Season 3. After all, they don't need to be Love Interests in order to cause old wounds to rear their ugly heads and to get VinCat to realize that there are still Season 2 issues that they never discussed or resolved (for themselves or for us).

Back to my ACTUAL original point:  "Held Hostage" is when Vincent ACTUALLY is holding the gem and away from Tori at the time when he hears the shot that means Cat (or others) could be in danger. Was it the gem that actually HELPED Vincent to have a clear enough head for the first time in ages in order to realize and recognize what losing Cat would mean to him (or what failing to save Others would mean to him)? Either way, Vincent chooses to finally make the right decision and risk losing gem, life, AND having others find out about Beasts in order to save lives. Thus, TO ME, Vincent making this Initial Choice to Do the Right Thing opens him up towards the right direction. And when Cat turns off the lights, it is like the RIGHT LIGHT finally goes off in Vincent's head and heart that causes him to realize that Cat always WAS trying to protect him and not just be a cop/care for legal justice rather than actual justice/PROTECTION FOR VICTIMS. Each then risks everything for the other, AND we get the first glimpse of the two WORKING TOGETHER to defeat the bad guys. Cat figures out how the gem works and yells to Vincent to discard it. And Vincent immediately TRUSTS Cat's observation and tosses aside said gem without a second thought and is able to Beast-out again. And the two decide to work together thereafter and acknowledge how BOTH of them have a stake and potential destiny/heritage in the gem and learning about its properties. So both will SHARE knowledge moving forwards. And the LOOKS are back between the two. Only after seeing that Gabe and Catherine seem to be eyeing each other does Vincent move away. Vincent clearly is starting to feel the guilt at how he has perceived Catherine, so he wants her to be happy, even at the cost of his own potential happiness. So Vincent is well on the way back to being his old real self with REAL direction and purpose again, which is OF COURSE tied in with Catherine. For this reason, "Held Hostage" is definitely on my Top 10 list for Season 2.

Okay, super long post. But I, like many other Beasties before me, am still trying to work out what I saw on my television screen with what I feel in my heart and soul regarding my beloved VinCat. And I have an extra long hiatus to continue working it out so will have NO CHOICE but to go back over all of Season 2 to find every nugget, no matter how small, of VinCat goodness (and even VinCat trials and unresolved issues) in order to see what I want and expect from Season 3. (Now, whether or not I actually GET what I want for Season 3 remains a disturbing reality that I both long for and dread. If only Brad Kern would reach out to Beasties for potential scripts. Sigh. I'd freaking work for free if they would just give me what I want on my screen!!)

And just adding now:  I'm not ready yet to compare Season 1 with Season 2. I am JUST NOT THERE YET. Too much pain still from moments on my television screen that I can explain but not yet forgive. Still working on it.

[vincat4always]

Jul 6, 2014 10:05:58 GMT -5 iona said:

Jul 3, 2014 21:50:57 GMT -5 jefferen said:

Loved and agree with everything you said!!!

  I agree with you but except one thing
Tori's scene. I think vincent totally attractive to tori (sexually). So vincent easilly gave up (ep.7) relationship with cat that time, that place (montak?). It reminds me break up tori'scene from ep.12 (ummm sour)
Some people said break up with cat scene from ep.7 that he did it intentionally[on purpose]. ummmm I don't think so.
Vincent just don't need cat anymore because tori wanting him there. Only person who like him as beast.
And after bomb scene i think that  he was a grey zone. he has a two options. Cat suggested don't cross the line and tori suggested cross the line and then vicent choose tori. I can't separate vincent's choose beast and choose tori.
They are the one set. That's why vincent sex with tori. That's why vincent live together with tori.
If vincent choose cat then that fact  is just vincent choose humanity? Vincent choose humanity and cat just like a trophy? like tori? I don't think so. I think tori effected to vincent beast something and last horrible choose thing is vincent's pure choice.
Because vincent attracted to tori...like other earth man  attracted other earth woman. That's brad kern whoever said before in some article.( vinent & tori's beast connection that (of course) never had with cat.)
unfortunately that beast something connection doesn't work well...like vincent&cat's human something connection broken by tori.
Whatever yeah~ vincent back to catherine anyway. Yeah~ happy.
Jay ryan's s2 vincent is hot, hot,hot (but still I don't understand. why jay ryan erased whlole s1 vincent. I know he is very sweet now but still feel's like...jay ryan's the other role the other drama not s1. at least cat is cat of course sometimes crazy catherine or sleep with gabe.. ...yeah pathetic I know  but still looks like cat)

And patrick...I always like him.. still thought better than gabe as cat's new love.

If they good handle this arc and characters like tori(I like her. confess even I like her song. It's a really good song and really pretty) gabe (I like his private life as gabe...like club scene ep.2. club door man knows gabe. I like that line) patrick (I looooooooove him. he's like a bear? slow but pure man? I don't know. but I know he's a cat's type)
and Tess...tess, tess our lovely tess. I think if they used tess& cat& new boss as triangle then it woude be huge funny scene.
(I mean not not sexually...;
Yeah~ S2 has a good moment. I like that but...still bitter sweet some reason.


Please s3...I hope we'll have ex·cel·lent moment whole season and good characters & story.

Usually I'm so sorry  for my bad English. 
I'm done s2. yeah~ no more opinion. I'm looking for s3 with open heart.

So I dont agree with the whole sexual attraction part, one Vincent didn't choose Tori over Cat. The kissing scene also if you remember Tori's eyes were changing. Vincent later told Tori that she affects everything how he feels, how he thinks... everything... So in a way the connection he felt with Tori was clouded by wtv affect she had on him. I don't know if that's how it was suppose to be portrayed or whether they have no chemistry or it was just JR's acting but I don't see the sexual attraction you do. Obviously there had to have been some sort of physical attraction but he was only with Tori once Cat shot him cause she was just there. Once he didn't feel betrayed by Cat anymore(when she turned the lights off in Held Hostage), he didn't care much about Tori after that.

[vincat4always]

Jul 8, 2014 15:52:39 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

And Vincent is awkward in all of his conversations with Tori in 212. As mentioned above, he can't deny that he wants back with Catherine and that he feels his head is foggy and not right with Tori. And Vincent IMMEDIATELY needs to go and discuss the situation with Catherine, which is not awkward. Vincent can naturally relate his troubles and be understood by Catherine, which leads him to ask her if they are, indeed, just friends. This question by Vincent seems to mean, at least by him, that he actually would want to be more again to Catherine, but she interprets it as "better than enemies." Cat's seeming to be better without him, something that is a re-emergence of Vincent's insecurities from Season 1, keeps Vincent from pressing the issue with Cat then and later leads Cat to "move on" because she thinks Vincent has done so (don't get me started on this. I didn't like Cat with Gabe any better than anyone else, and I won't deal with it here again. This was simply desperation to have something normal without pain and to end the trauma, etc. for Cat so that she could think that she had moved on. Sigh.).

 I mean, Vincent's beast senses can't wake him up after Catherine sneaks out in 216, even after she drops her boot on the floor. And Vincent's look and description of sex from 215 to JT in 216 show that he clearly enjoyed what had happened the evening before with Cat and that it "meant something" to him. And once Vincent knows that Cat clearly still has unresolved feelings for him as a result of said sex, Vincent becomes determined that nothing and no one will keep him and Cat apart moving forward. And Vincent and Cat CLEARLY spent a whole DAY in suburbia making up for lost time since Vincent and Cat don't even unload the car of their possessions until the morning AFTER they have arrived. And Vincent comes down the steps and into the kitchen all bubbly both nights after having been with Cat in suburbia, and again, Vincent slept through Catherine getting up BOTH nights to 1) read crime reports and look for what going on in NY after night 1 and 2) go question the cops and neighbors after the murder for night 2. And Vincent and Cat clearly were enjoying a last romp in the NY hostel in 221 before heading back to Cat's place, where they apparently enjoyed a Second Round in Cat's bed, as Vincent is only in briefs and a robe the next morning while cooking Cat breakfast. And Vincent is clearly SO HAPPY in their domestic activities, as we see him wanting to make breakfast for Cat both in suburbia and in her apartment. I mean, JT comments on the fact that NEITHER Vincent or Catherine answered their phones to learn that Gabe had become a Beast again because the two were clearly doing other things with their whole night and early morning. And from 216 forward, Vincent has repeatedly commented on being meant to be with Catherine and on their having a future together.

And I will say it here:  it is SO CUTE that Vincent CANNOT stay mad at Cat either in suburbia or in 222 for her having locked him up or been obsessed with the journal and unable to relax. Vincent is just so darn happy to be living with Catherine that he seems as much in love with her obsessive compulsiveness to look for things to worry about, although Cat is usually right in being worried, as being irritated with her for failing to enjoy the moment. And when Cat finally surrenders to just enjoying the moment with Vincent and SAYING that this is what she wants to do for the foreseeable future, the two just kiss to their heart's content at the end of 222. Catherine will undoubtedly be worried for what comes next by the time we see her in Season 3, but Vincent is all about contentment with exactly what he has. Tomorrow's problems can come for Vincent, but he does not have a worry or care about it as he has EXACTLY what he wants. So much for the "primal pull" of Beast sex and having something with Tori that he did not have with Catherine--it was only empty awkwardness and deep sorrow and regret.    

I absolutely love everything. This is why I love the forum. The highlighted part, I never even thought of that but now I see it. Especially the part where you say Cat thinks he moved on which again is brought up in the Valentines episode as Cat tells him he doesn't have to be all pro Gabe just to prove hes moved on. SO its clear Cat only gave Gabe a chance cause she thought he had moved on.

[jefferen]

I dont know if this is the most appropriate thread to post this in, but if the Admins want to move it to whatever thread they want, maybe the season 2 spoilers thread? I think this analysis that @nickromantv did last night is a very good read for all. I agree with most of what he was saying and I look forward to his next installment to his mini essays next week 

www.rickey.org/beauty-beast-season-2-good-bad-beastly/264871/

[Deleted]

It's a good essay. I'm not sure a multi-essay series is necessary though.

I always feel when reading after-the-fact analysis from (some) pundits that they have a better understanding of the storylines than the writers did when writing them.

Anyways, my view is, that letting the whole Vincat romance storyline increase (mid season 1) to dominate the show was the primary mistake. I think that should have remained a secondary narrative. (I know that won't make too many friends for me on this forum.)

There was much potential to explore with the basic concept of the series, but much of that has remained unexplored. Now, they've written themselves into a corner such that everything to come will have to revolve around the Vincat storyline. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does limit the creative options of the show.

[jefferen]

Jul 15, 2014 11:38:50 GMT -5 @dvy123 said:

It's a good essay. I'm not sure a multi-essay series is necessary though.

I always feel when reading after-the-fact analysis from (some) pundits that they have a better understanding of the storylines than the writers did when writing them.

Anyways, my view is, that letting the whole Vincat romance storyline increase (mid season 1) to dominate the show was the primary mistake. I think that should have remained a secondary narrative. (I know that won't make too many friends for me on this forum.)

There was much potential to explore with the basic concept of the series, but much of that has remained unexplored. Now, they've written themselves into a corner such that everything to come will have to revolve around the Vincat storyline. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does limit the creative options of the show.

For being a destined love VinCat did get together pretty quickly, especially since it was only an episode or two after Alex left. Think it shouldve happened closer to the end of S1. Or even if they had their 1st kiss in 114 and then kidda played Cat and Mouse the rest of the season, not really knowing or understanding yet, how they should proceed from here as far as their relationship.  I know they played that game a bit in the beginning of S1, but I think the storyline couldve been expanded a bit.  However, Jaystin's chemistry IMO, is so strong that if they didnt do it by that point that it'd be unbelievable that they were waiting.  I remember watching the first like 5 episodes, and I kept screaming at the tv in every one of vincat's interactions to just kiss already. Their chemistry is blatantly obvious to the point that its so real and that waiting I dont think wouldve been realistic.  If we had to go through a whole season of no kissing or them taking their relationship to the next level idk if I wouldve been able to survive.  

But unfortunately now, everything is moot point bc Season 1 is over. LOL 

[Deleted]

To me, the Vincat chemistry has always been considerably more than the Jaystin chemistry. (However, I can understand the opposite viewpoint.)
Regardless, the volume of the former could have easily been turned down by the actors if so directed by TPTB. The volume of the latter (Jaystin) chemistry is really only noticeable by those fans (most on here) who follow the show extensively outside of the actual broadcasts.

The Jaystin chemistry is very subjective and the Vincat chemistry is very non-subjective.

Anyways, how all of this could have been handled differently is irrelevant at this point. They've taken that fork in the road a long time ago.

[jefferen]

Jul 15, 2014 12:45:34 GMT -5 @dvy123 said:

To me, the Vincat chemistry has always been considerably more than the Jaystin chemistry. (However, I can understand the opposite viewpoint.)
Regardless, the volume of the former could have easily been turned down by the actors if so directed by TPTB. The volume of the latter (Jaystin) chemistry is really only noticeable by those fans (most on here) who follow the show extensively outside of the actual broadcasts.

The Jaystin chemistry is very subjective and the Vincat chemistry is very non-subjective.

Anyways, how all of this could have been handled differently is irrelevant at this point. They've taken that fork in the road a long time ago.

And I also understand the opposite view too But that pull that is between jaystin/vincat is ultimately what hooked me onto the show and why I keep coming back for more. IMO there isnt much you cannot do w/Jaystin/vincat bc of that chemistry.  Even when they were at odds (vincat) during S2 I still felt the pull between them during scenes. I originally tuned into this show cuz I found it on Netflix and I am a big Disney's BATB fan, and a sucker for romance, but I had no expectations for the actors playing the part, mostly bc I had no idea who they were, but once I saw them together, the subway scene, I was just completely blown away by the chemistry. I used to be a big Robsten, Fifty Shades, chemistry fan, but IMO no comparison:) That chemistry is what makes me follow KK and Jay outside the show! I would never want Jaystin together under the wrong circumstances or bc of a fallout or consequence of something else, but I silently whisper to myself that if its meant to be it will be and maybe one day it might happen. I've never seen or felt the intensity of a relationship like I do VinCat before and since Vincat is ultimately fictional, its Jaystin that pulls my heart strings 

But you are right, the volume of how Jaystin plays VinCat couldve been turned down a bit, even by the actors themselves. But unfortunately we will probably never know anything