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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 9:30:46 GMT -5
 Moving forward into S3, I think they have the opportunity to develop a show that highlights the strengths of the cast & crew. In the end, I come back to show for the performances that are given on the show. I sometimes find the plots & arcs some of the weaker points of the show. It seems the show needs a consistent or tighter trajectory. The characters and their development sometime seem all over the place. It also seems that the writers tend to write themselves into corners. They need to find the show's voice. It has so much potential. Well put. However, I think many had the same expectations about Season 2.  As Bill (sort of) touched on previously, the whole "who am I?" premise they teased in their talking points at the beginning of this season seems rather silly at this point. The directors/cast/crew have been doing a fine job, but the original problem still remains..........writing, writing, writing, writing. |
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Post by eyeofthetiger on Jul 1, 2014 9:33:07 GMT -5
Thanks Katie for making this thread. I have repeatedly stated that I enjoy reading all opinions, good/bad, happy/sad, pretty/ugly............I have felt that some opinions that are in the minority or that are not as "positive" as some would like, are sometimes made to feel like there is no place for their views. At some points this season, I personally felt "teamed up on" because I was posting more "negatively" than other's liked to read on the forum. I was called "judgmental". I will admit that I have been greatly disappointed in the majority of this season. I have not liked , what I feel has been the character assassination attempts on Cat and Vincent. I HATED the Tori 7 episode arc. I just can't rewatch those episodes. Maybe if I get bored during the hiatus I will do a marathon and maybe I will gather a better appreciation for the whole "Who Am I" theme. But, I feel like they could of had moments of great passion, reveals, and reunions. I think we got more heartbreak, devastation and disappointment. The Mythology has been weak.......but I am hoping and expecting that the next 2 episodes will finish strong and it will make more sense. All the actors have given great performances despite the weak writing at times. I even love Gabe at times. It is indeed nice to have an everything thread. Why didn't we do this before? I totally agree with everything you said, Suzie, and like many who did not like, enjoy, or appreciate most of S2, I have felt similarly teamed up on or ostracized, as though there is only one rose colored glass through which to view this show. And like many here, I started out on the S2 "Roller Coaster" determined to enjoy all the lumps and bumps, but I didn't know which ride I was actually getting on to begin with. It's like when you thought you were getting on magic mountain at disneyland, and wound up on pirates of the carribean instead... There was a point, during which time, I knew how bad it was going to get, and others convinced me TPTB would never go there. Well guess what, they did. And I stuck through it, despite the fact that I HATED every minute of it. Just because every scintillating second wasn't shown on camera, well the damage has still been done, and the fandom divided by what I can only describe as deliberately destructive character development, plot devices and story lines. The fact that this has been an enormously disappointing experience for others like me, well it is what it is. I think the point, in the end, is that we are still here. I'll be the first to admit I don't like people who troll or who exclusively post negative or argumentative viewpoints repeatedly, and one of my favorite motto's is "make love not war, hit the beds not the floor." Having said that, I do feel that this board has not always been the most welcoming place for those of us whose opinions or viewpoints may not, in that moment, be the most popular. We started out as a big happy nuclear family of a fandom, and I think we have become more of a dysfunctional broken family with perhaps one too many divorces in the twilight hours of S2. In my mind, there is no doubt that with a brutal, perhaps surgical degree of precision, TPTB, Brad Kern, the CW network, whoever you want to blame, cut out the heart of the show, and fully removed it from the body of work that had been created, then replaced it, and in essence stitched back together a show whose heart had ultimately been excised. It was like transplant surgery, and the recovery process, at the very least, is going to be a long rough road. Some might say that we will never be the same again. I would say that the answers lie within our ability to listen to each other, agree sometimes to disagree, and ultimately to be welcoming to everyone no matter how or why they came to love the show, or where they may go in the darkness to survive the tortures that the fans of this show have had to endure at times. When I read this, all I got was the visual of Gabe ripping out Beth's heart & Vincent ripping out Windsors heart... And I was like yep thats what it felt like a couple times this season. You're right that we need to listen to each other and be welcoming to everyone. I sometimes find differing opinions make me appreciate or understand the show/characters in another light which at times strengthens my love of the show. I will say that not so much on this forum, but in other parts of the digital world like twitter and such Beasties can be very intense and intimidating. Some can be very welcoming and open, but there are some that make me feel bad for supporting other shows. Like I can only live, breathe & die BATB or Im a bad person or not a true fan. Which a think is complete malarchy. I can love other shows and have it not diminish my love for BATB. There is passion for your show and then there is times when one is approaching the line or at sometimes flying way over the line of appropriateness. There are times when I wished people had taken a breath and thought about what they were saying or trying to express. And I will admit there have been times, when I have come close and maybe even reacted too hastily and said things that were in the heat of the moment and regretted it. The digital world is a fabulous place for people to express their thoughts, but the problem sometimes is that there is no way for people to understand tone. Tone becomes so critical in communication and there is no way to digitalize that. It creates so many problems in the world of fandoms and in real life too... It can lead to so many miscommunications and hurt feelings. We need to be open and accepting. My grandma always said you get more bees with a spoonful of honey than vinegar. Variety of opinion makes for a more interesting discussion. But the key like you said is being able to listen... Let's open our ears & our hearts... |
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Jul 1, 2014 10:05:47 GMT -5
To focus on just one issue that was frequently mentioned - the lack of Catherine-centric episodes - I don't think that term gets to the heart of the problem. In a season that was supposed to be about "Who Am I?", we are justified in expecting each character to struggle toward some personal growth. Vincent certainly took that journey and I won't quarrel with the writers how it was done. He reached a point of awareness where he felt unworthy of Catherine. Then he became aware that he was worthy and they were meant to be together. Then Catherine acknowledged how he had changed and grown. Then they were back together. But no similar arc of growth occurred for Catherine and that may be what some of us are really complaining about. Catherine began saying "I'm with Gabe" even before she was with Gabe. It is not enough for her to just stop saying it because I don't believe she understands what was going on inside her. There was much more growth for her in Season One as she became able to take the risk and admit her love for Vincent. In contrast in "About Last Night" (2x16) she hears Vincent try to save Sam by voicing sentiments that she agrees with. Then Catherine seems to come to an intellectual realization that Vincent has grown and changed. Then she seems to conclude that she can still be in love with him. The recent episode, "Ever After", seems as Catherine-centric as anything we are likely to see. And yet, as I've argued in that thread, it reveals not strength but a weakness for Catherine that she does not face. Instead, they return to the city where Catherine can indulge her need to be in control (fight crime) and where the life or death risk for Vincent is astronomical. I'm not saying I didn't love that episode or many others in Season Two. But it is clear to me she hasn't grown. In fact the damage done to her between the seasons was never healed. It is not enough for her to realize that she still loves Vincent. She would be the first to admit that is not an answer to "Who Am I"? Like Anna said, thank you! Well said. Two thumbs up! I will go a step further and say that I think Catherine's character was terribly written in S2, she was wishy washy, and there was no personal growth to speak of, only some good moments where she seemed to return to her former self, and others where she seemed completely and totally lost. |
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Post by eyeofthetiger on Jul 1, 2014 10:22:49 GMT -5
Moving forward into S3, I think they have the opportunity to develop a show that highlights the strengths of the cast & crew. In the end, I come back to show for the performances that are given on the show. I sometimes find the plots & arcs some of the weaker points of the show. It seems the show needs a consistent or tighter trajectory. The characters and their development sometime seem all over the place. It also seems that the writers tend to write themselves into corners. They need to find the show's voice. It has so much potential. Well put. However, I think many had the same expectations about Season 2. As Bill (sort of) touched on previously, the whole "who am I?" premise they teased in their talking points at the beginning of this season seems rather silly at this point. The directors/cast/crew have been doing a fine job, but the original problem still remains..........writing, writing, writing, writing. Writing is a tricky thing... It seems like individually some the scripts and actual lines are great... but there is no thread holding it all together. Well written shows are like a tapestry where each thread can be unique but in the end all come together to make a beautiful work of art. I feel that they need to look more at the bigger picture of the show. Im not sure what their process is, but it seems that some of the scripts are written in isolation of each other. If the show is gonna have an underlying "mythology" as opposed to just a procedural like show, then the episodes need to relate back to each other and have a similar voice/thematic connection. Its a character driven show, so the characters need to be fleshed out and consistent. Sometimes, it seems that the characters are not the same characters from show to show. A lot of the consistencies seem to be in how the actors are portraying them and not in the actual story. And repetition is not consistency. A lot of the basic plot this season, felt like repetition from S1, just with different names and slight tweak of circumstance. Its like the expression there are too many cooks in the kitchen. There are too many writer directions in the room. Rollarcoasters are fun, but they have to stay on track - otherwise there runs the risk of derailment and injuries which is what I think happened to some of the aspects of the show and resulted in injuring/losing some of the fans. As I was reading the other messages I got thinking about the "who am i?" journey that each character was supposed to take. I will agree that we have all seen Vincent's journey. After Fake date, I have seen Gabes journey (altho I am saddened by how that went). Tess, JT & Heather has also made some good character growth and development which can be considered mini journeys... Unfortunately, I think Cat's character also made a journey. However, unlike the other characters, her journey was not a positive or well written one. I agree she became a shadow of the strong female she was in S1, which frustrated and angered me because I hate when people make poor decisions that negatively affect who they are. I also hate to see strong characters, esp females made weak for sake of the plot. And altho, I dont agree that this was good character development or in anyway enjoyed the journey. It still was a journey. Sometimes, it takes figuring out who you're not to figure out who you're meant to be if that makes any sense. In my opinion, it seemed Vincent learned to be a better person from learning from his mistakes. Where Cat seemed to learn how to be a better person from seeing how misguided her choices were in those middle episodes. Perhaps its because her choices & decisions were more misguided than wrong. Vincent did some shady & wrong things in his character journey that he needed to redeem himself from. Gabe tried so hard to do the right thing, that he wound up unable to see all the wrong things he was doing in pursuit of the "right" thing. Gabe & Vincents journey are more blunt and straight forward which is why they seem more pronounced. Its harder to write the subtle journey that Catherine took in S2. Cat figured out she was, by figuring out she was not. Which is not as exciting a journey, esp the way the writers wrote it. In S3, I would love to have more backstory about all the characters. The actors are all talented and can show depth & complexity, it would be a shame to not utilize that. But in order to do that, I think they have to figure out a direction for the show. As much as I love hiding and running from big Baddies, there has to be more that VinCat & Posse can do in S3. The procedural crime of the week, and the sci-fi beast of the week were not effective. So find a way to tell the story that moves it forward without sacrificing the character or worse give us deja vu. I know its an ironic use of the season finale title. I want the show to go on for many seasons... and I see so much potential. I hope TPTB help cultivate t& nurture its potential. |
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Post by kiki09 on Jul 1, 2014 11:39:37 GMT -5
^ I never thought of Cat's journey like that. Thank you for your insight eyeofthetiger. |
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Post by Bill the beast on Jul 1, 2014 12:29:03 GMT -5
But no similar arc of growth occurred for Catherine and that may be what some of us are really complaining about Forgive me for quoting myself but I'm taking some of it back after "Fake Date". (It is like someone heard me) The brief little conversation Vincent has with Catherine on Gabe's balcony in the rain could have been so much more - but it IS a beginning and I'm pleased. That brief 30 seconds actually had Catherine being self-reflective for a moment. It could have been a little more if they had given it, say, two minutes? Two and a half minutes? It was a nice setup. She was scared, it was raining, they were huddled together reflecting on what had happened. A nice drawn-out change of pace would have been different for this show. Lately I've been watching Longmire on A&E, which if you don't know is about a sheriff of a small county in Wyoming. Even though there is plenty of action and police-procedural, one of the things I love about this show is the occasional change of pace, the drawn-out quiet moments where characters connect, you can see them thinking something through in an unrushed manner. (By the way, Cassidy Freeman - another Smallville alumna - is fantastically good) But for now in BatB we have very brief moments like the line I quoted below - one of the highlights of this episode, for me. Another was the "real date" Vincent and Catherine decide to have in the hostel at the end. Let the Swiss next door hear some "Beast-lovin'", right? |
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hopefulromantic
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BATB- A romance novel in a TV show form... What's not to love?
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Post by hopefulromantic on Jul 1, 2014 13:18:28 GMT -5
eyeofthetiger
Personally, I think this is a major issue with this show. The majority of us really loved this last episode. Guess who the writers were. We loved Season 1. Guess who the writers were for the majority of the episodes. Guess who developed the show in the first place. There seems to be a definite pattern to which episodes were fan favorites and this is where I think TPTB really messed up on multiple levels. The fact that there have been so many comments about the inconsistency from episode to episode speaks volumes. I'm not sure whose decision it was to make Sherri Cooper and Jennifer Levin less involved in the actual writing and into more of a advisor/consultant capacity, but IMO they need to go back to the original writers/writing and bring it back to the show we love and know it could be again. We learned so much more about the characters in S1 than we have in S2. Yes, I understand that the first season is usually about character development and setting up the whole premise of the show. I just think that they could have evolved the characters further in S2 as well as had the action and excitement to keep it going and drawing in more viewers. If it was because BK thought that more action and a faster pace was better than how it was progressing, then perhaps consultants from that aspect could have been brought in. The characters are getting lost in that fast pace. I totally agree with you when you say there are too many cooks in the kitchen. The recipe changes from episode to episode and we have gotten to the point that we don't even know what we are tasting anymore. For us to significantly notice the difference of this episode (and any written by Cooper and Levin) and other ones is saying a lot. They have to know about the sour taste they have put in a lot of our mouths with S2. I really wish and hope that they take that into consideration and adjust accordingly for Season 3.
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Jul 1, 2014 13:30:42 GMT -5
^ Cooper and Levin will only be consultants in season 3..no word whether they will oversee scripts and have any say in the final product. So right there it closes the door in a way.
2. The duo wrote the SAME amount of episodes this season as last
3. It's true that they created this version of BATB and no one can truly write them like they can.
I think season 3 will be a lot like season 1. If the last 6 episodes of season 2 are any indications.
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hopefulromantic
Army Recruit
BATB- A romance novel in a TV show form... What's not to love?
Posts: 114
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Post by hopefulromantic on Jul 1, 2014 13:36:49 GMT -5
^ Cooper and Levin will only be consultants in season 3..no word whether they will oversee scripts and have any say in the final product. So right there it closes the door in a way. 2. The duo wrote the SAME amount of episodes this season as last 3. It's true that they created this version of BATB and no one can truly write them like they can. I think season 3 will be a lot like season 1. If the last 6 episodes of season 2 are any indications. One can hope that they have learned a valuable lesson and will turn things around.
Considering the last 6 episodes, I remain ever hopeful. 
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 1, 2014 13:39:15 GMT -5
^ Cooper and Levin will only be consultants in season 3..no word whether they will oversee scripts and have any say in the final product. So right there it closes the door in a way. 2. The duo wrote the SAME amount of episodes this season as last 3. It's true that they created this version of BATB and no one can truly write them like they can. I think season 3 will be a lot like season 1. If the last 6 episodes of season 2 re any indications. u know i do think season 1 and the last 6 episodes of season 2 are quite different.. i mean i also think the first 9 episodes of season 1 are very different from 10-22 what does everyone else think? i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it |
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Post by kiki09 on Jul 1, 2014 13:48:58 GMT -5
^ Cooper and Levin will only be consultants in season 3..no word whether they will oversee scripts and have any say in the final product. So right there it closes the door in a way. 2. The duo wrote the SAME amount of episodes this season as last 3. It's true that they created this version of BATB and no one can truly write them like they can. I think season 3 will be a lot like season 1. If the last 6 episodes of season 2 re any indications. u know i do think season 1 and the last 6 episodes of season 2 are quite different.. i mean i also think the first 9 episodes of season 1 are very different from 10-22 what does everyone else think? i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it I agree with you. They are all different and maybe cause the circumstances are different. Even though the last six have some s1 feels as it were, it's not a direct comparison. For example, V is not the exact same way he was in s1 and he is now. Also, even though he's a fugitive, he is not in hiding in the same way as he was before. He was more in the shadows than before. Also, I think before the threat is different. Murifield was the main thread but this time, in the last 6, Gabe is a direct and tangible threat to VinCat. |
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Jul 1, 2014 13:50:07 GMT -5
^ Cooper and Levin will only be consultants in season 3..no word whether they will oversee scripts and have any say in the final product. So right there it closes the door in a way. 2. The duo wrote the SAME amount of episodes this season as last 3. It's true that they created this version of BATB and no one can truly write them like they can. I think season 3 will be a lot like season 1. If the last 6 episodes of season 2 re any indications. u know i do think season 1 and the last 6 episodes of season 2 are quite different.. i mean i also think the first 9 episodes of season 1 are very different from 10-22 what does everyone else think? i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it I'm speaking in the fact that VinCat will be together .As for feels..the last 6 do feel much stronger for me as per their relationship. .I think they know what it's like to lose each other. ..I don't mean kidnapping...abductions lol..I mean relationship wise |
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 1, 2014 14:09:08 GMT -5
u know i do think season 1 and the last 6 episodes of season 2 are quite different.. i mean i also think the first 9 episodes of season 1 are very different from 10-22 what does everyone else think? i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it I'm speaking in the fact that VinCat will be together .As for feels..the last 6 do feel much stronger for me as per their relationship. .I think they know what it's like to lose each other. ..I don't mean kidnapping...abductions lol..I mean relationship wise i agree in terms of the relationship they are definitely much stronger now, it feels that that is it now. no questions any more. they are IT in terms of the feels - so do you feel vincat now as much as you did in season 1 chemistry wise etc i know there are differences in opinion in the forum |
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hopefulromantic
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BATB- A romance novel in a TV show form... What's not to love?
Posts: 114
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Post by hopefulromantic on Jul 1, 2014 14:11:10 GMT -5
u know i do think season 1 and the last 6 episodes of season 2 are quite different.. i mean i also think the first 9 episodes of season 1 are very different from 10-22 what does everyone else think? i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it I agree with you. They are all different and maybe cause the circumstances are different. Even though the last six have some s1 feels as it were, it's not a direct comparison. For example, V is not the exact same way he was in s1 and he is now. Also, even though he's a fugitive, he is not in hiding in the same way as he was before. He was more in the shadows than before. Also, I think before the threat is different. Murifield was the main thread but this time, in the last 6, Gabe is a direct and tangible threat to VinCat.
"i am trying to figure out in what ways they are different, they just feel different lol but have never really thought about it"
I just can't put my finger on it, but the characters just seem different somehow when they go between writers. They're the same characters, but with Cooper/Levin episodes I notice little nuances here and there (ie. a touch on the arm, a special kind of glance at each other) that just make them more them. It's like other writers can't reach it and just don't know the characters as intimately as their creators.
"V is not the exact same way he was in s1 and he is now."
They aren't the same as they were before. Everybody becomes a product of their life experiences and evolve accordingly. V was different before he "met" C and changed as their relationship developed. Then he was changed by the ones who took him and rewired him. Then he evolved (I love the word evolve if you haven't noticed already) into a combination of both to become the Vincent 3.0 that he is now (who I like the best, BTW lol).
Now everybody will change again in S3 and hopefully evolve together. Vincat has morphed quite a bit in the last two seasons. And now they have found their way back to each other and have created a new and improved Vincat. I can hardly wait to see it in S3! I just hope that their original characteristics don't get altered too much. I still want to be able to recognize them next season...
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Post by kiki09 on Jul 1, 2014 14:40:05 GMT -5
^
Yeah I don't want them to change in the sense of becoming completely different people. I think you used a great word 'evolve'. I want them to grow and develop as characters.
I agree with you about the nuances as well.
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