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Post by Catherine Chandler on Jun 29, 2014 2:39:03 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons that there has been so much unrest on the board is because we are all suffering some level of disappointment with BATB this season. I agree with this part of your post.  It is indeed nice to have an everything thread. Why didn't we do this before? During the first episodes of season 2 a member suggested that we should open a section for you guys to vent. At the moment we didn't think it was necessary. Honestly I never thought the fandom and the show would become what they are now. That's why we are here now so people can post without feeling they are being judged for what they think. Some might say that we will never be the same again. I would say that the answers lie within our ability to listen to each other, agree sometimes to disagree, and ultimately to be welcoming to everyone no matter how or why they came to love the show, or where they may go in the darkness to survive the tortures that the fans of this show have had to endure at times. I really like this part of your posts. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. That's why the forum exist so people can discuss and talk about it. For example I like the last episode and every character in it but several members didn't like it and posted how bad they thought the episode was, etc. Did any member told them they were against the show for not liking it? No, no one did that because there is nothing wrong with members liking one episode and disliking the next one. Agreed! We have had Vincent flashbacks and backstory. What about Cat? In the Pilot she was studying law. What made her become a cop. How did she meet Tess? How did she learn martial arts? The man she thought was her father died, when/how did she grieve? So many possibilities. Cat is a badass and interesting character. They need to do more with her than just have her storyline revolve around Vincent. I have nothing against Vincent, just want some equality here. You know I agree with you Ahmed! Let me just say this............I LOVE that the guys are here and are speaking what is on their minds about the show. We may not agree with them but I WANT to hear their views on this forum! I welcome it.........!! I sense their frustration because , correct me if I am wrong fellas, ........but you want to see more Catherine/Kristin and her story. I DO TOO! I was on board with this show THE MINUTE I heard Kristin was the Beauty. I know Ahmed was too. I wanted to see Kristin shine on this show.......she is so enormously talented and for years was the brunt of unfair criticism. So.........please know that for those of us who have known Kristin's work FOR YEARS AND YEARS, are always going to focus on how much of a storyline/opportunity she is given in this series. I am not taking anything away from Jay.........I think he has done an incredible job in making me believe in him as a Beast and a Human and the struggle he has faced. He brought the character Vincent to life............And I truly admire and appreciate his work. But, I will always be a Kristin fan first and will follow her work even after BATB is over. After years of being a Clana fan, I have also become a VinCat fan.........I didn't think it was possible, but I am a big fan. I think the guys and some of us KK fans want to see Catherine's role be more in-depth. I mean, we didn't see anything about Thomas Chandler's death, her grieving him. What about the whole backstory of Vanessa Chandler...........there is more to that story with Miurfield and Reynolds. The way Cat found out about Bob was lame. That should have been a much BIGGER reveal! What about Evan saying to Vincent about what he found in the Miurfield files?? What was it? Catherine has been all over the place this season and that strong character from Season 1 disappeared for most of the season. Now, we are getting more of her essence and strength back. I understand that those who love Vincent are offended by the comment that was made. I didn't take offense to it,...........because obviously there are some people who feel shortchanged by Catherine's lack of storyline this season. The whole season has been Vincent centric, and Catherine has always been in Vincent's orbit and not far from him. She didn't truly separate herself from him. I guess the mythology will become clearer, I hope, in the next few episodes so that we can understand the strength and depth of Vincent/Catherine connection. Till then the mythology has been weak, IMO. So, I would hope that everyone here can at least welcome the guy's perspective offered and if you disagree, then let's have a rousing DEBATE!! I challenge us to defend why we don't think that Vincent is just an underwear model!! (I kept getting visions of Marky Mark! and his underwear ads!  Personally, Jay could act rings around Mark Wahlberg, who is in the new "TRANSFORMERS" movie, BTW!! I love to hear other perspectives! Especially the guys in our SEO group! I brought this post to this thread to explain something. What Suzie said on this post is how KK fans feel. We ask and ask for more Cat's stories because of all those years that KK went through with people bashing her for playing a fake character. We just want to see her happy with what she wants. We want to see her projects be successful but with this show we are disappointed because her character was written so bad this season. The problem I see is that when someone asked for more Cat's stories, some members tend to feel that we are hating Jay/Vincent. That's not the case. I mean I do dislike Vincent because of how he was written this season but if I'm being honest I ended up disliking Cat in several episodes too. However as I was mentioning before I like both of them in the last episode . Back to what I was saying some members feel that we hate Jay/Vincent when we asked for Cat's stories. How do I know this? Because they have said that to us. They didn't post those thoughts on here but for example I posted a couple of months ago that I didn't think this show was about being equals since its focus is always about Vincent, a person told me that she understood but that wasn't Jay's fault. I didn't say anything but in my head I was like: "I didn't even mention Jay in my post....when did I say it was Jay's fault? As far as I know Jay doesn't write the show?" Then someone else shared her thoughts. This person asked if she needed to hate JR for liking KK more since that's what she felt when she read posts of KK fans' on this forum. If you guys feel like that, please post that. Because in no way we are hating Jay. It's true that I don't see him the way most women see him. That's why I don't go crazy over him but that doesn't mean I hate him. He seems like a nice guy and a good actor. I just don't see him that way because for me what makes me really like an actor has to be more than about how the actor looks. And even when I do like an actor, my posts are rarely about the way he looks. They are more about the kind of person the actor is. So in other words I think one of the issues is that some fans cannot separate the actors from the TV characters. That's why they take this too personal and feel we are hating Jay which it's not true. That's why I agree with Katie on this. Sendhil's fans have behaved better than all the fandom together because he does get hateful tweets just because he plays Gabe, they cannot see that Gabe is a fake person and Sendhil is a real person. Still his fans keep supporting the show not matter what. Anyways even if I ask for a better story for KK's character. What I really want it's a good quality TV show which it's nothing what this season has been. I want a good story for every character: Cat, Vincent, JT, Gabe even Tess. If they only focus on one character, we will be back to what happened this season. They will loose even more viewers. I would love to sit with Kern, Sherri and Jennifer and ask them why they decided to take this season down this road? I just want to understand why would they think what happened this season is what fans wanted? I guess we will never know  |
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 29, 2014 3:10:32 GMT -5
It's true that I don't see him the way most women see him. That's why I don't go crazy over him but that doesn't mean I hate him. He seems like a nice guy and a good actor. I just don't see him that way because for me what makes me really like an actor has to be more than about how the actor looks. You are confusing me here. are you saying that people tend to like him because he is seen as good looking? Because even though I know that many people do find him hot I think people appreciate him not because he is good looking but because he is a great actor who can really bring the character to life and has been great at showing different aspects of Vincent. and i really dont think posts talking about Jay's hotness take away from how people also see him as a very good actor. i dont think anyone woudl really care if all he was was good looking, there are many good looking guys out there I don't think people in teh forum are saying that about KK fans generally. I think people in the forum may have referred to specific posts within the forum which bash Vincent while also expressing the need for more cat centric stories. There are quite a few examples including references to King Vincent etc or references to Vincent as an underwear model. this is what forum members are referring to. There has not once been any disrespectful Cat related post. But I do not think anyone referred to all KK fans but specific posts within the forum. There are similar posts (some of very hostile nature) running around twitter but i wont elaborate on those because twitter is a completely differnet ball game and nothing to do with th forum at all. oh and btw, I consider myself as a KK fan too now and a JR fan as well. i completely agree with that post but I think that this has NOT been the case at all in the forum for vast majority of members or/and posts. However, an example of a post that upset me when I read i tand it is still in the forum is the following - and it demonstrats that really some posts do not differentiate between characters and actors. thankfully it is only very few posts that have done that so I would not think it is a huge issue "Wow people make it seems like KK is into Jay,shes most likely not. Probably shes into a manly man? perhaps shes into intelligence guy? Not everygirl have a severe jay/vincent fetishation" |
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Post by Vincent Keller on Jun 29, 2014 12:50:53 GMT -5
And like many here, I started out on the S2 "Roller Coaster" determined to enjoy all the lumps and bumps, but I didn't know which ride I was actually getting on to begin with. It's like when you thought you were getting on magic mountain at disneyland, and wound up on pirates of the carribean instead... There was a point, during which time, I knew how bad it was going to get, and others convinced me TPTB would never go there. Well guess what, they did. And I stuck through it, despite the fact that I HATED every minute of it. The fact that this has been an enormously disappointing experience for others like me, well it is what it is. I think the point, in the end, is that we are still here. 
I can't say I hated every minute of it, but I did feel my soul was in a blender during a good deal of this season...and not in the angsty "Fault in our Stars" way. More like the, "We're going to take advantage of your loyalty and try out some new crap and you'll just have to get over it" way. But we're still here! Woo! I'm just calling it like I see it. (personally). Vincat did not go through trials, overcome them and come out stronger, nor did they grow as individuals. They were basically just miserable. They went through unnecessary, out of character, manufactured, bitter heartache - the kind that tears away pieces of your soul - not the kind that makes you a strong "overcomer". The "trial by fire" they were peddling is not accomplished with shoving, ignoring, shooting, cheating, being second-fiddle, losing yourself and dating the completely wrong person even though you swore you needed alone time. ^ See I'm passionate.  I'm also passionate about how incredibly I saw this couple function over the last couple eps. I feel like they're building something amazing. They have such a deep, mutual respect for one another, as well as fierce loyalty. So how completely OOC did they have to be to act they way they did earlier this season?  |
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Post by Catherine Chandler on Jun 29, 2014 13:07:17 GMT -5
It's true that I don't see him the way most women see him. That's why I don't go crazy over him but that doesn't mean I hate him. He seems like a nice guy and a good actor. I just don't see him that way because for me what makes me really like an actor has to be more than about how the actor looks. You are confusing me here. are you saying that people tend to like him because he is seen as good looking? Because even though I know that many people do find him hot I think people appreciate him not because he is good looking but because he is a great actor who can really bring the character to life and has been great at showing different aspects of Vincent. and i really dont think posts talking about Jay's hotness take away from how people also see him as a very good actor. i dont think anyone woudl really care if all he was was good looking, there are many good looking guys out there When did I say you guys only appreciate him for his body? I know he is a good actor even said "He seems like a nice guy and a good actor". I do know that you guys see him for more than a good body but most of the posts not every posts (so I'm not saying you and I'm not saying all the members) are about his body which I totally get why you love to post about that. There is nothing wrong with that. I was just trying to explain why I don't usually post regarding Jay and also trying to explain that just because I don't post about him it doesn't mean I dislike him. If you knew me personally, you would see why I rarely post about guys. Like I really like Chris Hemsworth and most women not all women like him because of how he looks. But if you ask me, I won't tell you I like him because how he looks or because how he acts. I like him because he looks so cute when he is holding his baby, he looks so happy when he is with his wife and the thing that kills me the most was when an interviewer asked him who was the best kisser for him. Everyone was expecting the name of an actress but instead he said "My wife". I was like: "Now I'm in love". That's why I said "some members" not all members. The 2 people that actually said something like we dislike Jay/Vincent really believe that our post about KK are against Jay. Maybe I'd give Jay's other shows a shot and I'd become a fan too. I'm saying this maybe I shouldn't but since we can discuss lots of things here I will. It was only one person. I believe it was the same person who posted about King Vincent. First I think that post the one who is talking about intelligence was removed. If it was not removed, you guys should have reported it. Now I have mentioned this on a different area of this forum, there are people on this forum that love to mess up with fans. This is one person. Because neither Katie, Ahmed, Suzie, Dan and me has ever said anything bad against Jay. So this one person is messing with you and that person has reached his goal which is what? For you guys to pay attention to his posts and for you guys to feel bad and get angry. That's how it works. |
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Post by dan on Jun 29, 2014 14:24:21 GMT -5
I occasionally wrote King Vincent in reference to Vincent.
It refeers to how almost every single story/characters/gueststars on show always revolve around him.
He's the center of almost everything,the writers really made it seem like that.
That name I gave him was nothing offensive.
I believe the overuse of "banana" that others like to write in relation to JR/VINCENT is far more offensive.
Look how quick this discussion turned from pointing out there's too much Vincent story into the acuse that some people are bashing Jr...sigh..
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Post by dan on Jun 29, 2014 14:39:27 GMT -5
Hey Dan. I DO think the writers may have gotten the message about needing to give Cat more of her own life. You can't have a strong, independent female character if she is just swooning over her man and dealing with his problems at the cost of her own. "Ever After" really seemed to be a turning point for Cat's character. Cat wasn't willing to cease to be a cop or to keep from making protecting others her TOP priority. She didn't want suburbia without a life of her own. And Vincent even commented that he NOW recognizes that Cat has to be somewhere where she can kick butt. With Heather being made an actual series regular next year, we SHOULD get to see more Cat interacting with her family and having her own life outside of Vincent's. I miss the scenes from Season 1 where Cat, Heather, and Tess would go out together (or stay in together--like at Cat's party). We didn't even get to hear about how Cat handled her birthday this year. I certainly think it would have been during a time when she would be forced to take stock of her life and see where it has ended up (and what it has cost her). And Gabe will be gone (hallelujah and amen, as far as Cat's character development is concerned) so that Cat won't be vested in relationships that seem forced. I really think we will get the strong kick-butt Catherine in Season 3 that is taking charge of her life. Yes, I admit I want the Romance between Vincent and Cat. But that isn't her whole life, either. I do hope we see more of Cat back at the precinct. They don't HAVE to make the cases give insight to VinCat's relationship: we can just see Cat protecting others and risking her life as she did before Vincent. At the same time, with her having more of a reason to stay alive with family back in her life and Vincent, I want to see how that will affect how Cat approaches her job and the risks that she takes. I have real HOPE for Season 3. That said, it does worry me that the people that write Cat the best will only be "consultants" next season. And Kern seems to lean towards male writers who, in my opinion, haven't done Cat right. We will just have to see, as we all DO know that the writing is the key. I don't think they got the note. A Cat centric episode was long overdue.It just happened they wrote one at the very last minutes. And it looked like an afterthought, a light ,low budgeted episode. You know how all the serious,action packed,lots of guest star,the more expensive episodes were Vincentcentric. I noticed Kern is far more on team beast than he is on team beauty since his very first interviews. One of his statement: "Vincent is going to embark on a great who am I arc, exploring his beast side while Cat gonna have to search for Mr.right" can you see what's seriously wrong with that? He prepared a bigger and more interesting arc for his favorite while shoved the other some thankless storylines. Perhaps we can send them the link to this thread so they know what went wrong and how we feel? anyone with twitter account please forward our messages! |
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Post by Mrs Forbes Glass Half Full on Jun 29, 2014 15:34:04 GMT -5
I occasionally wrote King Vincent in reference to Vincent. It refeers to how almost every single story/characters/gueststars on show always revolve around him. He's the center of almost everything,the writers really made it seem like that. That name I gave him was nothing offensive. I believe the overuse of "banana" that others like to write in relation to JR/VINCENT is far more offensive. Look how quick this discussion turned from pointing out there's too much Vincent story into the acuse that some people are bashing Jr...sigh.. I am Switzerland on JR and KK. I am not that bothered on what they did before BATB. What got me hooked was the chemistry between the two which made VinCat. Thanks for clarifying the above Dan because I have to admit I was one that thought that calling him King Vincent to express your unhappiness at the lack of Catherine, was a bit of a dig. If the situation was reversed I wouldn't come here calling her Queen Catherine. I do understand your frustration at the balance of the show. I didn't mind it however, because I didn't really like what they did with Catherine for a big part of this season. She was a shadow of the woman I loved in Season1 and I preferred what they had done with Vincent.(Not perfect but I could relate to him more. I understood why he did some of the things he did) IMHO she was all over the shop. The writing for her was awful. There were so many moments she actually got on my nerves. One of the biggest moans I had was when Gaberine started. I knew I wouldn't like it , but the fact that Gabe walked all over her was WTF. Catherine had a thing for bad boys but she was never a victim! She never let Zeke or Evan or even Vincent get away with telling her what to do. THE phrase 'You can't FORBID me to see anyone!', springs to mind. I cringed when she bowed to Gabes demands!!!!! From ep 16 she has been coming back and I like her again. I wish we had seen her on her own, without any man, finding herself but alas that ship had sailed. I wanted them fighting for their love earlier than ep 16. They said that they had to 'earn their love'. When did that happen? I love any VinCat moment and the romance has been lacking this season for me. I don't need to see them performing the horizontal mambo but I would love more romantic dialogue. One of my favorite scenes is still the rooftop declaration in Season 1. ' I don't need walls or doors', 'I am so in love with you', still gives me chills. So here's hoping the last two episodes don't disappoint for all of us - Catherine, Vincent, JT, Tess and Gabe lovers. One thing we can all agree on I hope is the love of BATB at our core |
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Post by Suzieq ❤️ Beastie on Jun 29, 2014 16:00:34 GMT -5
I occasionally wrote King Vincent in reference to Vincent. It refeers to how almost every single story/characters/gueststars on show always revolve around him. He's the center of almost everything,the writers really made it seem like that. That name I gave him was nothing offensive. I believe the overuse of "banana" that others like to write in relation to JR/VINCENT is far more offensive. Look how quick this discussion turned from pointing out there's too much Vincent story into the acuse that some people are bashing Jr...sigh.. I am Switzerland on JR and KK. I am not that bothered on what they did before BATB. What got me hooked was the chemistry between the two which made VinCat. Thanks for clarifying the above Dan because I have to admit I was one that thought that calling him King Vincent to express your unhappiness at the lack of Catherine, was a bit of a dig. If the situation was reversed I wouldn't come here calling her Queen Catherine. I do understand your frustration at the balance of the show. I didn't mind it however, because I didn't really like what they did with Catherine for a big part of this season. She was a shadow of the woman I loved in Season1 and I preferred what they had done with Vincent.(Not perfect but I could relate to him more. I understood why he did some of the things he did) IMHO she was all over the shop. The writing for her was awful. There were so many moments she actually got on my nerves. One of the biggest moans I had was when Gaberine started. I knew I wouldn't like it , but the fact that Gabe walked all over her was WTF. Catherine had a thing for bad boys but she was never a victim! She never let Zeke or Evan or even Vincent get away with telling her what to do. THE phrase 'You can't FORBID me to see anyone!', springs to mind. I cringed when she bowed to Gabes demands!!!!! From ep 16 she has been coming back and I like her again. I wish we had seen her on her own, without any man, finding herself but alas that ship had sailed. I wanted them fighting for their love earlier than ep 16. They said that they had to 'earn their love'. When did that happen? I love any VinCat moment and the romance has been lacking this season for me. I don't need to see them performing the horizontal mambo but I would love more romantic dialogue. One of my favorite scenes is still the rooftop declaration in Season 1. ' I don't need walls or doors', 'I am so in love with you', still gives me chills.So here's hoping the last two episodes don't disappoint for all of us - Catherine, Vincent, JT, Tess and Gabe lovers. One thing we can all agree on I hope is the love of BATB at our core YES!! Totally agree about Catherine. The BOLD part was the most romantic scenes ever and I get "chills" whenever I view it too. I think the rooftop "I love yous" this season, was nice and sweet but I wanted more Passion. At least from Catherine............all the heartache she had this season, I wanted to see more than "I love you, too". I wanted to hear Cat say that in her heart she NEVER stopped loving him. She tried........but I wanted her to speak what she knew in her heart to be true. I wanted more from that scene...........that "I love you" rooftop scene was like the lovemaking reunion scenes............short, sweet but lacking in all passion. |
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Post by vincat4always on Jun 29, 2014 18:48:06 GMT -5
I am Switzerland on JR and KK. I am not that bothered on what they did before BATB. What got me hooked was the chemistry between the two which made VinCat. Thanks for clarifying the above Dan because I have to admit I was one that thought that calling him King Vincent to express your unhappiness at the lack of Catherine, was a bit of a dig. If the situation was reversed I wouldn't come here calling her Queen Catherine. I do understand your frustration at the balance of the show. I didn't mind it however, because I didn't really like what they did with Catherine for a big part of this season. She was a shadow of the woman I loved in Season1 and I preferred what they had done with Vincent.(Not perfect but I could relate to him more. I understood why he did some of the things he did) IMHO she was all over the shop. The writing for her was awful. There were so many moments she actually got on my nerves. One of the biggest moans I had was when Gaberine started. I knew I wouldn't like it , but the fact that Gabe walked all over her was WTF. Catherine had a thing for bad boys but she was never a victim! She never let Zeke or Evan or even Vincent get away with telling her what to do. THE phrase 'You can't FORBID me to see anyone!', springs to mind. I cringed when she bowed to Gabes demands!!!!! From ep 16 she has been coming back and I like her again. I wish we had seen her on her own, without any man, finding herself but alas that ship had sailed. I wanted them fighting for their love earlier than ep 16. They said that they had to 'earn their love'. When did that happen? I love any VinCat moment and the romance has been lacking this season for me. I don't need to see them performing the horizontal mambo but I would love more romantic dialogue. One of my favorite scenes is still the rooftop declaration in Season 1. ' I don't need walls or doors', 'I am so in love with you', still gives me chills.So here's hoping the last two episodes don't disappoint for all of us - Catherine, Vincent, JT, Tess and Gabe lovers. One thing we can all agree on I hope is the love of BATB at our core YES!! Totally agree about Catherine. The BOLD part was the most romantic scenes ever and I get "chills" whenever I view it too. I think the rooftop "I love yous" this season, was nice and sweet but I wanted more Passion. At least from Catherine............all the heartache she had this season, I wanted to see more than "I love you, too". I wanted to hear Cat say that in her heart she NEVER stopped loving him. She tried........but I wanted her to speak what she knew in her heart to be true. I wanted more from that scene...........that "I love you" rooftop scene was like the lovemaking reunion scenes............short, sweet but lacking in all passion. I don't know, I feel as though the looks between them in 2x16 on the rooftop was so full of emotion more then words could say. That's just me though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 7:30:51 GMT -5
YES!! Totally agree about Catherine. The BOLD part was the most romantic scenes ever and I get "chills" whenever I view it too. I think the rooftop "I love yous" this season, was nice and sweet but I wanted more Passion. At least from Catherine............all the heartache she had this season, I wanted to see more than "I love you, too". I wanted to hear Cat say that in her heart she NEVER stopped loving him. She tried........but I wanted her to speak what she knew in her heart to be true. I wanted more from that scene...........that "I love you" rooftop scene was like the lovemaking reunion scenes............short, sweet but lacking in all passion. I don't know, I feel as though the looks between them in 2x16 on the rooftop was so full of emotion more then words could say. That's just me though. I agree with you on the rooftop looks in 2x16. There was an immense amount of love and passion expressed. I have said it before, but we are extremely blessed to have such incredibly talented actors (BOTH of our leads) that are so adept at expressing themselves non-verbally. |
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Post by vincat4always on Jun 30, 2014 9:58:35 GMT -5
I don't know, I feel as though the looks between them in 2x16 on the rooftop was so full of emotion more then words could say. That's just me though. I agree with you on the rooftop looks in 2x16. There was an immense amount of love and passion expressed. I have said it before, but we are extremely blessed to have such incredibly talented actors (BOTH of our leads) that are so adept at expressing themselves non-verbally. I know I am almost in shock at how well they can act the love between Vincat. Like the looks between them, that must be hard to play out. |
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Post by Bill the beast on Jun 30, 2014 19:32:45 GMT -5
To focus on just one issue that was frequently mentioned - the lack of Catherine-centric episodes - I don't think that term gets to the heart of the problem. In a season that was supposed to be about "Who Am I?", we are justified in expecting each character to struggle toward some personal growth.
Vincent certainly took that journey and I won't quarrel with the writers how it was done. He reached a point of awareness where he felt unworthy of Catherine. Then he became aware that he was worthy and they were meant to be together. Then Catherine acknowledged how he had changed and grown. Then they were back together.
But no similar arc of growth occurred for Catherine and that may be what some of us are really complaining about. Catherine began saying "I'm with Gabe" even before she was with Gabe. It is not enough for her to just stop saying it because I don't believe she understands what was going on inside her. There was much more growth for her in Season One as she became able to take the risk and admit her love for Vincent. In contrast in "About Last Night" (2x16) she hears Vincent try to save Sam by voicing sentiments that she agrees with. Then Catherine seems to come to an intellectual realization that Vincent has grown and changed. Then she seems to conclude that she can still be in love with him.
The recent episode, "Ever After", seems as Catherine-centric as anything we are likely to see. And yet, as I've argued in that thread, it reveals not strength but a weakness for Catherine that she does not face. Instead, they return to the city where Catherine can indulge her need to be in control (fight crime) and where the life or death risk for Vincent is astronomical.
I'm not saying I didn't love that episode or many others in Season Two. But it is clear to me she hasn't grown. In fact the damage done to her between the seasons was never healed. It is not enough for her to realize that she still loves Vincent. She would be the first to admit that is not an answer to "Who Am I"?
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Post by vincat4always on Jun 30, 2014 23:07:12 GMT -5
I haven't read everyone's comments I will probably tomorrow but after tonight's episode I realized two things about Cat I didn't like.
1- Cat has this sense of doing things without thinking of it hence backfiring on her, multiple times this season and last season she's went against Vincent's wishes regarding Gabe or wtv the case be and it backfired on her and Vincent had to come and save the day. I fully understand that what she does is based on wanting to fix things which Vincent somewhat mentioned to her but time and time again she actually makes it worse.
2- Cat season 1 worked a lot with Vincent and listened to him a lot more, Cat season 2 has her own mind(not necessarily bad) but doesn't being in a relationship entail two people? Cat makes a lot of the decisions and Vincent just has to accept them?
I don't know if I'm wording myself correctly maybe it's too late and once I read this thread tomorrow I'll be able to voice myself better.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 30, 2014 23:49:07 GMT -5
To focus on just one issue that was frequently mentioned - the lack of Catherine-centric episodes - I don't think that term gets to the heart of the problem. In a season that was supposed to be about "Who Am I?", we are justified in expecting each character to struggle toward some personal growth. Vincent certainly took that journey and I won't quarrel with the writers how it was done. He reached a point of awareness where he felt unworthy of Catherine. Then he became aware that he was worthy and they were meant to be together. Then Catherine acknowledged how he had changed and grown. Then they were back together. But no similar arc of growth occurred for Catherine and that may be what some of us are really complaining about. Catherine began saying "I'm with Gabe" even before she was with Gabe. It is not enough for her to just stop saying it because I don't believe she understands what was going on inside her. There was much more growth for her in Season One as she became able to take the risk and admit her love for Vincent. In contrast in "About Last Night" (2x16) she hears Vincent try to save Sam by voicing sentiments that she agrees with. Then Catherine seems to come to an intellectual realization that Vincent has grown and changed. Then she seems to conclude that she can still be in love with him. The recent episode, "Ever After", seems as Catherine-centric as anything we are likely to see. And yet, as I've argued in that thread, it reveals not strength but a weakness for Catherine that she does not face. Instead, they return to the city where Catherine can indulge her need to be in control (fight crime) and where the life or death risk for Vincent is astronomical. I'm not saying I didn't love that episode or many others in Season Two. But it is clear to me she hasn't grown. In fact the damage done to her between the seasons was never healed. It is not enough for her to realize that she still loves Vincent. She would be the first to admit that is not an answer to "Who Am I"? Bill thank u |
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Post by eyeofthetiger on Jul 1, 2014 9:12:54 GMT -5
Part of the reason that KK wears flannel rather than barely there stuff might be a point that she is just being herself and not changing for anyone. And she IS cute in those jammies, and if you remember, her Mother always gave her a pair of flannel pjs for her birthday and watched old movies with her. And when Vincent learned of that story, he also gave her a pair of flannel pjs. Thus, THIS is her "home" and her comfort zone. Flannel pjs is like her way of feeling happy and comfortable with the one she loves most--she puts on her flannel pj bottoms (the ones, I think, that Vincent gave her back in the birthday eppy) with the gray shirt when she goes to open the door in 216. Practically, BATB is also filmed in Canada, mostly in the winter-ish months. This past season, it was freaking below zero degrees when the actors had to be out filming, particularly night scenes. Some of the behind the scenes photos would show them having to pile about 3 jackets on top of KK between scenes because it WAS so cold. In the opening scenes of the Pilot episode, it was like minus degrees below in the scene KK had to film outside in the beginning and she ended up having FLU for most of the filming of the Pilot. As a result, there may be an actual smart reason to why we seemed to mostly see KK in jackets on our screens this season. However, I do think that part of the time that VinCat were apart, it seemed like KK's hair, make-up, lighting, and clothes were all plain and wrong, as if she wasn't as full-out Beauty as when she was happy and fulfilled with Vincent. Subtle way to show that everything in her life was NOT right, even when she thought she was "moving on." What seems to support my hypothesis, at least in my opinion, is that after she has slept with Vincent in 215, she wears blue that accentuates her eyes and has beautiful blush on her cheeks, that "afterglow" look, and a spring to her step. And her hair has been PERFECT since she got back with Vincent. Again, just another subtle way of showing that when her life is in order and she is happy, she LOOKS the part of Beauty. I also think that the writers, particularly Jennifer and Sherri, have liked to have KK dress up for a particular reason and deliberately WATCH Vincent's reaction when she comes into his view. We saw this in the Pilot when KK comes dressed for her father's engagement party. Vincent had TOLD Catherine not to come back to his place, and he continues to yell at her before this scene and others directly after when she shows up at his place for a while BUT NOT when she comes all dressed up. His whole face just lights up looking at the Beauty that he loves. You see this again in the Masquerade Ball episode (oh how I love you "Any Means Possible"!) when Cat comes down the stares. Vincent loves Catherine, but you can see him just fall in love with her all over again each time she is really all Beauty. If Cat was always dressed up, it would not really make sense because you really CAN'T kick butt all that well in heels and a tight dress. Just my two cents worth for the color and clothing and lighting (and hair) choices for Cat this season.  It is subtle form of artistry some of the wardrobe, make-up & hair choices. But I think it adds to the show. The practicality thing is a realistic point... Budget Im sure is also a consideration. But as a fan of Alias, I will say that one can kick butt in heels & a tight dress - but not as a NYC detective on the run. Its just not realistic. Thats why I prefer some of the undercover episodes like Ancestors... it allows some of the realistic constraints to be removed. KK & JR can kick butt in designer duds without it being unrealistic. Just like the disguises at the beginning of fake date allowed the show to poke fun at some of the silly disguises that people wear in movies & tv. Its authentic without being cliche. Moving forward into S3, I think they have the opportunity to develop a show that highlights the strengths of the cast & crew. In the end, I come back to show for the performances that are given on the show. I sometimes find the plots & arcs some of the weaker points of the show. It seems the show needs a consistent or tighter trajectory. The characters and their development sometime seem all over the place. It also seems that the writers tend to write themselves into corners. They need to find the show's voice. It has so much potential. |
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Personally, Jay could act rings around Mark Wahlberg, who is in the new "TRANSFORMERS" movie, BTW!! I love to hear other perspectives! Especially the guys in our SEO group! 
