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Post by ArwenFan on Mar 19, 2014 13:18:49 GMT -5
I'm on the fence about the S3 thing.., they fudged up so much of S2 so royally IMO, I'm just not sure how I feel about giving B. Kern and co more episodes to wreak havoc on my (used to be ) favorite show. S2 has not been worth it IMO. I don't know how to feel about begging them for more of what I feel has been pretty craptastic TV . 1 or 2 decent episodes do not make up for the rest of the season which I wish I had never seen ... Assuming the show is renewed, what will make your decision to watch or not? If Brad Kern is fired? Speaking of feeling abandoned, here's an outside possibility that most Beasties haven't considered. Maybe Jay and/or Kris are not thrilled with the direction of the show either and might consider leaving? I don't know how their contracts are constructed, but they could be in a position to really play hard ball with the network if the decision is made to renew for a third year. I know they both would be thrilled not to be in Toronto winter again. Jay and Kris are two smart people. They don't have the luxury of not standing back and looking at the big picture objectively. One of the questions I'd ask myself if I were them is....."is BATB going to be a negative for my career choices in the future?" Just thinking out loud. Well, I am nothing if not balanced. (Wishy-washy?) I blame this on the Libra influence in my astrological birth chart. I am not cutting Brad Kern any slack for the way he came in with a jackhammer and blew season 2 to smithereens. I did not like and still don't like the way the super soldier/beast hunter/Bob the handler/sperm donor storyline played out. It was clumsily crafted and poorly executed. The actor playing Ted Reynolds seems to be a fan favorite, but he does nothing for me and neither did his role. In hindsight, I can see what they were trying to do with Tori, but that was botched as well and the actress sucked. I do not like Gabe, did not like the Gabe and Catherine "try to make it work storyline" and I'm glad it is over. And last but not least, I did not like the whole bruhaha over Vincent shoving Catherine, the assertion by fans that he physically hurt her (please), the ham-fisted "soft tissue injury," and all they references to domestic violence one shove generated.
All that said, having re-watched the entire season back-to-back, I have to admit that it does come across a little better and, I'm not sure if it's because the final episode ended on a Vincat high or not, but a lot of the initial sting is missing and I'm not hating it as much as I did on the basis of individual episodes. I don't understand how someone as experienced as Brad Kern is could have made the poor choices he made or allowed so much time to be wasted on nothing when said time could have been used to present his themes better, but I'm not wasting any more brain power on that. I'm hoping BATB gets a third season because I think it will be better a season all around now that the dust has settled and the new foundation is finally being laid.
As for KK and JR leaving the show, I don't know anything about contracts for series television, but it would seem they would have been signed for at least 5 years depending on the network's decisions. As for thinking BATB has damaged either career...are you kidding? No way either can think that. They have grown so much in their craft, and shown their range and skill. IMHO, that is one way television excels over movies because a television series gives an actor the opportunity to do so much with a character over a period of time. Again, my new found sense of acceptance may be from having my lovers back together, but there are still 6 episodes left, and they will determine the final grade I give the season.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 18:45:42 GMT -5
I just don't think we know all there is to know about the Brad Kern situation. In fact, I don't think we know much of anything about it. It's not clear to me he isn't executing a master plan for the show just as the network directed him to do. I still think the guy might be getting a bad rap. Regarding Jay and Kris, no I don't this experience has damaged their future career opportunities. However, one/both of them might feel that way. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility, since it's happened before in this crazy business. It certainly has taken considerable time from their schedules the past two years. Who's to say whether some terrific role might have come along in that time and they missed the opportunity. I would be very surprised if they signed five year contracts.
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Post by ArwenFan on Mar 19, 2014 19:47:34 GMT -5
I just don't think we know all there is to know about the Brad Kern situation. In fact, I don't think we know much of anything about it. It's not clear to me he isn't executing a master plan for the show just as the network directed him to do. I still think the guy might be getting a bad rap. Regarding Jay and Kris, no I don't this experience has damaged their future career opportunities. However, one/both of them might feel that way. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility, since it's happened before in this crazy business. It certainly has taken considerable time from their schedules the past two years. Who's to say whether some terrific role might have come along in that time and they missed the opportunity. I would be very surprised if they signed five year contracts.Why? Anyone signing on as a lead in a television show has to be prepared to set aside at least that if the show is a hit. And being in a series does not keep actors from pursuing movies or theater during their down time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 20:14:33 GMT -5
All the more reason to sign a shorter contract initially so you can negotiate a new one for big bucks when the show becomes a hit. Good point regarding down time except in this case it's only between mid-April and mid-July. If you assume they'd like to take some decent vacation time during then it doesn't leave much time for other (significant) projects. I hope it's obvious I'm playing the role of devils advocate here. I have no good reason to believe they both are not interested in a third season. And no solid reason to believe Brad Kern isn't responsible for the disappointment some of you feel regarding S2.
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Post by texasscotian on Mar 19, 2014 20:44:50 GMT -5
I just don't think we know all there is to know about the Brad Kern situation. In fact, I don't think we know much of anything about it. It's not clear to me he isn't executing a master plan for the show just as the network directed him to do. I still think the guy might be getting a bad rap. Regarding Jay and Kris, no I don't this experience has damaged their future career opportunities. However, one/both of them might feel that way. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility, since it's happened before in this crazy business. It certainly has taken considerable time from their schedules the past two years. Who's to say whether some terrific role might have come along in that time and they missed the opportunity.I would be very surprised if they signed five year contracts. I agree to a certain extent with you on the bold parts, but you could also look at the flip side of the coin as well. Think about Jay for example. Having gained much more international exposure by being on a show that originates in N. America,seems to have gained him a far bigger advantage than if he had turned down the role. At least that's what I would think. I don't mean to come across sounding biased in any way, shape or form in thinking that once you become a breakout star in a US based show, you've hit the jackpot. It just seems that once artists in either the Music, TV or Movie industry from other countries make it big in the US, they have a much bigger exposure and more opportunities seem to come their way. For example, think about the Downton Abbey stars: once that show became the huge success that it is in N.America now, some of the stars of the show, are in major movies with international showings; for example Jessica Brown-Findlay(Lady Sybil), is now in "Winter's Tale" with Colin Farrell. Think about Kristen as well: she was chased by Jennifer and Sherry specifically for the role of Catherine. Maybe if she hadn't starred in Smallville, she wouldn't have had the opportunity to be in another show with just as much, if not maybe more exposure than before. It just seems to me that a show with a huge fan base like ours, or Smallville, etc., seems to gain the shows stars many more opportunities than they might otherwise not have had. Anyway, that's my two cents worth of an opinion.
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Mar 19, 2014 20:53:51 GMT -5
The contracts of BOTH Jay and Kristin is 3 years. That's what they signed up for. If the series goes further then they would have to negotiate on revising the contract to exceed the 3 years.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 21:18:17 GMT -5
3 years. Thanks much for that info. I'm sure it's probably been mentioned on this forum previously, but I didn't find it when searching. Probably my poor searching skills. It's certainly true that BATB has increased Jay Ryan's exposure. I was completely unfamiliar with him before this. Regarding Kristin, it was my understanding the project was pitched to the network with only her in mind and that it wouldn't have even been green-lighted for a pilot if she hadn't agreed? In my view, it's much more difficult to gauge her exposure increase as a result of this project since she was already fairly well known. I think the question for her is not about exposure but about status. If you see what I mean.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Mar 24, 2014 20:27:14 GMT -5
Just found this thread. I admit, I have learned to live with this season, even accept it and find something to hold onto. I still love this show. And Kristin and Jay somehow always find a way to make it believable for me and to give me hope.
That said, the problem I feel is that Brad Kern was brought on board to turn the show into a typical CW show (which means bed-hopping, love triangles, etc.). And Beauty and the Beast was so good because it WAS different from the typical CW teen drama. Even though the show struggled to find its footing in Season 1 and how it would go (was it procedural, strictly drama, character-driven?), the ultimate pull of VinCat made the showrunners and episode authors (like Jennifer and Sherri) change direction from where they originally intended to go (like dragging out the VinCat getting together) to going where they felt the fans wanted to be.
What worked for Season 1 so well was that both Vincent AND Catherine suffered terrible trauma-inducing horrors that occurred to both themselves and their loved ones. Vincent sees his brothers die in the towers (and it is made VERY clear from comments like "I never got over losing my brothers" just how powerful and all-consuming family ties were for Vincent), enlists, gets made into a virtually uncontrollable Beast, struggles to keep his humanity while feeling both Hunted AND Isolated. Catherine sees her beloved mother, who was "her person" and the person she THOUGHT she knew the best in the world, killed right in front of her. As Catherine comments herself, she ends up making a "case" out of everything ((like she wants to do to Vincent originally)), isolates herself from those she loves, is clearly distant with her relationships with guys favoring career over a life (she has gone stag to the Cop's Ball 3 years in a row), and pushes people away. Both are damaged individuals. I LOVE when Catherine tells Vincent in Season 1, Episode 2 that "I swear I used to be a normal person." Both Vincent and Catherine recognize upon beginning their acquaintance that they have mutual traumas that cause them to isolate themselves and to put up walls around themselves. Yet there is some sort of mutual understanding in just the looks that pass between Vincent and Catherine when he initially saves her from Muirfield that are somehow so strong that Catherine KNEW from the beginning that Vincent would never hurt her. And each understands so badly what the other really wants and needs: someone to just UNDERSTAND, empathize, and communicate about what has happened and just have someone to be with that understands. They make mistakes, Vincent beasts out in those first couple of episodes and orders Catherine away, YET he always follows her obsessively to keep her safe. And uses the things he observes as reasons/excuses to keep contact with Catherine. ((Really go back and look at episodes 2 and 3 of season 1. Right after an argument with Catherine where Vincent has supposedly left the warehouse for good to escape Cat's stealing his picture/making a case out of him, Vincent still swoops in to save Catherine from the mugger. And right before he is literally going to tear the now-dead mugger limb from limb, Catherine calls out to him and tells him she that it is okay, she is safe. And Vincent calms enough to pull away from the body and leave.))
And Cat later comments on how it IS important to sometimes push the boundaries aside in order to communicate, like actually getting Vincent to tell her about his army buddies. AND EPISODE 3 ENDS WITH THE TWO TALKING ON THE ROOF about their lives and just getting TO KNOW ONE ANOTHER. Although both continually push one another away, neither can let go. Vincent comments about this to Catherine time and time again. Even by Heart of Darkness when Evan has died, Vincent finds an almost broken Catherine just riding the subway. She asks him how he always finds her, and he replies, "I never stop looking." And even though both know how dangerous it remains to stay or be together, Vincent comments that he now can't live without her. The Vincent/Catherine relationship might have had the Lust Angle (really, how could it not? oh delicious banana republic goodness. Please give me a moment to drool), but it was made clear in Episode after Episode that these two were drawn to each other through shared understanding of trauma and forcing one another to reach out despite the harm it could cause. Real Epic Relationship stuff.
That said, the above is why I still DO have problems with Season 2. I get it. Vincent was tortured. There is an underlying (and understandable) rage that threatens to strip his remaining humanity. But this Vincent is continuously cruel in how he pushes his beloved (and JT as well) away. Again, I get how the justification for this is that Vincent has no memories or basis of self to rely upon, and he was tortured undoubtedly to the point of being Beast Unreckonizable. However, Catherine tries to originally get Vincent back through sex, which would be meaningless since he doesn't know her. I get that Catherine was desperate and had seen her friends die or be put at risk all because of keeping Vincent's secret. We know that took a toll as well as having Vincent missing for so long and only returned after he has no memory and new abilities. But still. WHILE I CAN GET the writing angle of this season from that perspective, I would have far preferred to have the relationship written differently. I would have liked Vincent to find Catherine and ASK her about how he heard her heartbeat. I mean, he recognizes HER heartbeat out of a hundred. CLEARLY, he knew her. Why not ask? And why didn't Catherine try the approach THAT WORKED BEFORE in telling Vincent about herself and about him. Catherine repeats the ORIGINAL mistakes in her relationship with Vincent by making him a case and pressing him harder than ever when he has NO basis for trusting her at all. Catherine is Wreck Unrecognizable while Vincent proves to be Beast Unrecognizable. YES, I get how the writers can justifiably go there--I just would have honestly wanted something else.
I would have liked to have seen Vincent driven to follow Catherine as he did in Season 1. And then begin to have the memories flow from that. Like Season 1, both characters have the trauma. However, in this season, said trauma forces the characters apart rather than together. If Vincent had bothered to ask Catherine how she felt about her own family, she would have got the conflicted history and how Catherine no longer feels she knew her mother at all. AGAIN, I understand that the writers were showing that Vincent and Catherine had been pushed to the breaking point to where neither had anything substantial to give the other. Each had to find his or her own path before having a heart and soul to give to another. However, since both were so empty and traumatized, why give nothing to obviously meaningless relationships? I do see how Catherine was vulnerable to Gabe's manipulations, but when her own mind was showing her flashes of beastly Gabe, why then did Catherine choose not to go with her instincts?
I admit that I do like how Catherine and Vincent have had to find their way back to one another by getting through the traumas. I just wish that they could have done it together without Tori and Gabe. Also, Tori was not given enough screen time to get to flesh out her character until literally her last episode. And why? Because the showrunners knew fans didn't want to see Tori/Vincent onscreen. Thus, we don't get to see or know how they even started a relationship. I mean, they didn't seem able to talk about anything without quarrelling, and it was not the kind of fun quarrelling of VinCat that manages to be hot and sexy even when they argue (I mean, seriously, look at all those scenes in Season 1 in the beginning when Vincent tries to push Catherine away yet immediately follows and just can't stop himself. Even when he beasts out and she runs off, it is clear that both are in agony; and Catherine always comes back to the warehouse as saucy as ever or Vincent leaves her a note to meet on the roof or about something to do with one of her cases.). I LIKED that Vincent 1.0 was Catherine's sounding board for cases (LOVED Vincent's line, "Don't you have a partner for this?" and Catherine's later lines at season's end how coming together about cases, life etc. and making decisions TOGETHER is what partners do) and could help her in her profession as well as in her personal life. Tori ever only seemed to argue with Vincent about Catherine, so really, what was the relationship based on? Did Vincent only want someone to pound into the bed to make Catherine go away? And he wasn't trying to make her go away if after said meaningless sex, he got out of bed to talk to her every night. ((I admit, I did like that though Vincent wasn't ready to admit it at that point, he was pulling away from Tori from the get-go and trying to get back to Catherine. He and Catherine TALKED about their lives and clearly revelled in their budding friendship via phone. Why did they not START with this? I know, I know--the trauma.))
I guess what I am trying to say is that what the writers did in Season 2 makes a twisted logical sense. I can even appreciate it at this point since we are talking complete reboot with Vincent having no memories and being tortured to get a Beast-Specific Mental State driven to missions-only without question (the super soldier without the human element--the ultimate Muirfield goal). However, was Muirfield really ever only one man? Really? When we now know that Muirfield was only a piece of the picture? Just wrapping up the whole Muirfield angle in 1 or 2 episodes of season 2 was laughable. Sigh. I know, it is what it is. I, too, felt abandoned at times this season and sometimes just mad and outraged. I didn't need a show made to look like every other CW show of love triangles. I didn't think THAT was necessary to get to VinCat. I can understand how broken people will go that route. I just thought Cat's experiences (she did have her memories, after all) would make her not want something shallow when she had had something Epic. I get that she just wanted the pain to go away. Just don't see how she thought Gabe was the way to do it. Again, would have needed to see more on my screen to explain it. However, again, the writers KNEW fans didn't want to see anymore of that then they had to show to make the storyline make sense. Yes, still bitter, even though I actually like (and love) many parts of Season 2. Still hate that the things I liked had to come with so much of what I didn't. I don't like cringing at my tv screen. And I STILL have not gotten nearly enough VINCAT banana republic scenes yet to help me cope from the trauma that was Gabe and Tori. I still feel like I need about forty more years of cleansing showers to get rid of that cheating feeling that the triangles left me with. I am glad for this thread, as it is a place to cope with those still-broken gloom and doom thoughts that will persist, especially when I see how much of the fanbase that it has cost us. We need those Beasties back in order to get more of what we love. And I worry it may be too late.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Mar 26, 2014 9:42:48 GMT -5
I just don't think we know all there is to know about the Brad Kern situation. In fact, I don't think we know much of anything about it. It's not clear to me he isn't executing a master plan for the show just as the network directed him to do. I still think the guy might be getting a bad rap. Regarding Jay and Kris, no I don't this experience has damaged their future career opportunities. However, one/both of them might feel that way. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility, since it's happened before in this crazy business. It certainly has taken considerable time from their schedules the past two years. Who's to say whether some terrific role might have come along in that time and they missed the opportunity. I would be very surprised if they signed five year contracts. I think all anyone is saying is that the plan for S2 sucked. The creative team came in with a jackhammer with the sole intent of destruction of everything that we loved about S1. Every part about how they executed the S2 plan was clumsy. They botched the initial VinCat reunion, wasted an interesting possible storyline regarding V. getting his memories back... When did that happen again? They hired a terrible actress to play she-beast temptress for Vincent, then forgot to show most of what happened between them, except that initially she had some sort of she beast power over him. Then he acted like her lapdog for several episodes... Oh I forgot, also somewhere along the road to destruction they broke the number 1 cardinal rule by having Vincent shove and hurt Catherine, as well as flushing his character down the toilet by making him a hired assassin and killing machine. Catherine shot Vincent - kill shot in the abdomen, I might add. Surely another cardinal rule that was broken... They made us sit through an episode of Tori-Vincent centric relationship drama without ever showing that they were in a relationship to begin with, showed man-boy V. sneaking out of BED with Tori to call Catherine. EWE. Vincent slept with and seemingly lived with Tori in the boathouse. Then they tried to make the woman everyone loved to hate die a hero like a character out of Les Mis. Sorry but you have to give a character some depth to draw those kinds of parallels, and just because someone mentions the so-called parallel doesn't make it believable. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Catherine is giving Vincent relationship advice? Cough cough. What? Beasties around the world were weak in the knees with the flirt going on, and I was just getting whiplash trying to keep up with all of the unexplained plot developments... Anyway, I digress. Then, just as soon as the she-beast was dead (ding-dong), Vincent was suddenly all about getting back with Catherine. D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G!!! Conveniently, hours before the she-beast died, he seemed to be losing interest, other beasties interpreted that as him choosing Catherine over Tori, I just saw a man that wanted to have his cake and eat it too... Was that a tear I saw as he lingered over Tori's dead body? Mean while, back in the land of no chemistry, Catherine randomly, out of nowhere, from nothing, wants to "be with" Gabe. The next great plot development was Catherine jumping into a relationship with the ADA - ewe gross, and yes, they had to sleep together too. That was actually their idea of a romantic plant the seeds of a VinCat reunion episode - the one that ended with Vincent as a martyr and Cat/Gabe running off to Mexico. Anyway, I could go on all day. This is my idea of a very poorly executed season, or at least 2/3 of it. If we are in for more of the same in S3, I'd like to pass. Beauty and the Beast is a love story - supposed to be epic - not a teenaged melodrama or 90210-esque type of story. Hold the love triangles and sleeping around please.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 10:34:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with you. However, you're just regurgitating the S2 narrative (to this point) that we're all well familiar with. That's all water-under-the-bridge now. My larger point was what was the direction (if any) given to Brad Kern when he took this job. If this was all his idea then you certainly have valid complaints in not liking the direction he's taken the show. However, if this "direction" came down from the network then maybe he's somewhat more blameless in this scenario? That's the real question....who is REALLY wielding this "clumsy jackhammer"? Regardless, some of the fans (not you of course) have enjoyed the direction change this season. I like some aspects but generally prefer S1. Although, years from now when folks are reminiscing about BATB they'll most likely be talking about S1. The main problem with this show......and I've mentioned it before.....is that the target demographic is not nearly big enough. The attempt was made to broaden it, but it just hasn't worked out.
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Post by ArwenFan on Mar 26, 2014 23:08:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with you. However, you're just regurgitating the S2 narrative (to this point) that we're all well familiar with. That's all water-under-the-bridge now. My larger point was what was the direction (if any) given to Brad Kern when he took this job. If this was all his idea then you certainly have valid complaints in not liking the direction he's taken the show. However, if this "direction" came down from the network then maybe he's somewhat more blameless in this scenario? That's the real question.... who is REALLY wielding this "clumsy jackhammer"?Regardless, some of the fans (not you of course) have enjoyed the direction change this season. I like some aspects but generally prefer S1. Although, years from now when folks are reminiscing about BATB they'll most likely be talking about S1. The main problem with this show......and I've mentioned it before.....is that the target demographic is not nearly big enough. The attempt was made to broaden it, but it just hasn't worked out. IMO, it doesn't matter. It's obvious that whoever it was made a tactical error.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Mar 27, 2014 7:12:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with you. However, you're just regurgitating the S2 narrative (to this point) that we're all well familiar with. That's all water-under-the-bridge now. My larger point was what was the direction (if any) given to Brad Kern when he took this job. If this was all his idea then you certainly have valid complaints in not liking the direction he's taken the show. However, if this "direction" came down from the network then maybe he's somewhat more blameless in this scenario? That's the real question.... who is REALLY wielding this "clumsy jackhammer"?Regardless, some of the fans (not you of course) have enjoyed the direction change this season. I like some aspects but generally prefer S1. Although, years from now when folks are reminiscing about BATB they'll most likely be talking about S1. The main problem with this show......and I've mentioned it before.....is that the target demographic is not nearly big enough. The attempt was made to broaden it, but it just hasn't worked out. IMO, it doesn't matter. It's obvious that whoever it was made a tactical error. Exactly. And water under the bridge or not, S2 is the second season of a (so far) two season show. There is no shaking the fact that some of us - or many of us - have nearly half the show which is forever tainted... it changes the landscape of how I feel about BATB. I may be regurgitating the S2 narrative, but you cannot take it back, the damage is done. Anyway, sigh, while around the world and the board, and twitter at large, other beasties are celebrating the more beautiful aspects of 2x16, I find myself with a lingering bitter taste in my mouth. I had a lot of hope for a second season, for the future of a show that I loved, and all that is gone now. It is like a lot of tragic events throughout history that change the canvas of how history looks - natural disasters, terrorist attacks... etc. I will not compare this to that, but S2 definitely changed the way I feel about BATB, and once things change, once that hope or optimism is lost, it is very hard to get back. I just cannot look at this show the way I once did. Anyway, I love recent developments, but for me, the damage is done. Anyway, it's sad.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 11:10:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with you. However, you're just regurgitating the S2 narrative (to this point) that we're all well familiar with. That's all water-under-the-bridge now. My larger point was what was the direction (if any) given to Brad Kern when he took this job. If this was all his idea then you certainly have valid complaints in not liking the direction he's taken the show. However, if this "direction" came down from the network then maybe he's somewhat more blameless in this scenario? That's the real question.... who is REALLY wielding this "clumsy jackhammer"?Regardless, some of the fans (not you of course) have enjoyed the direction change this season. I like some aspects but generally prefer S1. Although, years from now when folks are reminiscing about BATB they'll most likely be talking about S1. The main problem with this show......and I've mentioned it before.....is that the target demographic is not nearly big enough. The attempt was made to broaden it, but it just hasn't worked out. IMO, it doesn't matter. It's obvious that whoever it was made a tactical error. I would still be interested to know though. If Brad Kern is going to be thrown under the bus for this, I'd like to know how much blame is really his. Just curious.
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