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Post by ArwenFan on Jun 4, 2016 20:34:41 GMT -5
ArwenFan, Welcome Back!! I have been waiting for my absolute favorite person to quarrel with (insert imagined emoticon thingie where the smiley face eagerly and yet somewhat sinisterly rubs its hands together, preparing auditory missiles for immediate deployment. . . .)! LOL None. I used to watch Reign, but they screwed the pooch with that as well. Well, as you may have guessed, I don't even consider BATB JUNK FOOD now. I thought so little of S3 that I only watched it once. I can't compare 401 to any previous season of BATB. It was so nondescript, I'd compare it to a television show like Lucifer. I tried to watch the first episode, found it indescribably bad, and switched channels after 15 minutes. No can do. First of all, I don't follow BTS activity for any of the shows that I watch (which have been limited to Outlander [Starz], Game of Thrones [HBO] and Vikings [History]). I don't hang on Twitter or FB, so this asinine direction that TPTB decided on feels like betrayal to me. Second, I can't accept Kern's and the CW's version of what BATB is about. S3 was definitely bait and switch. S4 is simply crap and based on what I saw Thursday night, I can't commit to watching the rest of the season real time anymore. The fact that you felt like VinCat behaved liked teenagers in S3 just shows how far the show fell from S2's standards. The magic and chemistry JR and KK created with VinCat during S1 & S2 is long gone. I've found better chemistry, acting and magic in the characters of Jamie Fraser and Claire Randall Fraser in Outlander. S1 was off the charts hotness and S2 has not let up on the passion and chemistry between the leads. Instead of changing course after the first season, they doubled down. But. They have the same showrunner. I have no idea why BATB's production was a revolving door. I was a diehard Beast fan. I loved everything about S1 and got on-board with S2. But S3 blew BATB up for me. Hence, I had no expectation for 401 and still it was a failure, IMO. BATB was mugged and high-jacked by clueless suits and male writers. The only other show I know of that hit the skids as badly is Sleepy Hollow. Sorry to disappoint, alwayscrazedbatbfan, but I don't care enough to argue the point.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 4, 2016 20:42:02 GMT -5
THE AD LIB KING STRIKES AGAIN: Found this on F/B "Our Beauty and the Beast Page" : "Saw this on twitter. Must be some sort of Q&A with Stu
Looks like Jay did ad lib his French.
Stuart Gillard @stugillard 36m36 minutes ago .@batbtrivia jay had KK laughing so hard they almost fell into the ditch in the vineyards - they need another series
PTMSP @ptms @stugillard Did Brad Kern write the dialogue in French or did the actors or someone else just translate it when they got the script. #BATB
Stuart Gillard @stugillard 55m55 minutes ago .@ptmsp had it translated police & @mskristinkreuk spoke French and @jayryan cracked me up when he improvised his stuff" #batb #beasties
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 4, 2016 22:30:04 GMT -5
Arwenfan,
Your quote: "BATB was mugged and high-jacked by clueless suits and male writers." ---I LOVE this (and sadly find myself agreeing with it).
I, myself, am down to two shows left that still keep my interest, one of which is BATB. The other, "The Blacklist" also disappointed me in a major way this season. I know shows often find themselves in the unenviable position of having to write out an actress because she wants to be with her newborn, but "The Blacklist" made what was previously believable to the extremely idiotic and weakened the plot to boot in order to create a spinoff. AND ONCE AGAIN, the "dead parents" being alive angle got dragged out again as a tool to move the plot (remember Bob Reynolds? I am SO tired of this plot device!)
So I find myself with you on the state of network programming as well, particularly with networks wanting to "brand" their programming a certain way. WHY would you want all your programming to be SIMILAR? Give me VARIETY and uniqueness, the way BATB was (and could be again, with the right writing). Unlike you, I guess, I have not given up hope yet.
(I have not tried Outlander. I'm too afraid to get attached to yet another show that then disappoints me and leads to further heartbreak. Because BATB was and still remains precious. I have decided to go with the Outlander book first to see if I dare try the television series!)
Still plan on seeing BATB through to the end in real time. At least VinCat is still together without some fake death, like on the Blacklist! ALTHOUGH, I hate to admit it, but that might have proved an interesting plot twist had Catherine been kidnapped with her whereabouts unknown for an episode or two. But again, been there, done that, to some extent on BATB already.
I would STILL SUGGEST watching BATB. It IS the final season, and I hope to see SOME S1-2 threads previously left dangling re-examined or attended to. I want to think we will get that. Remember, we first heard about the Beast Black Market in reference to Muirfield in S2, episode 2. And we had that implied in 401. So it COULD get interesting.
401 may have given us more than first appears. Once again, the villains behind the scenes have major capital financing. And Muirfield and that S2 corporation DID have major financing, and with the intollerable DA gone, there was no one left to prosecute or go after those S2 people. . . .
OUT OF CURIOSITY, what are you looking for specifically? Do you want better VinCat interaction or a better plot moving forward in S4? Did anything intrigue you at all from 401?
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 4, 2016 22:34:35 GMT -5
and Jewels,
THANKS for putting those quotes on this thread! I LOVE that information about the behind-the-scenes joking around wtih the bike scene. WISH we would have gotten a little MORE of that on our screen! I really hope that material lands on the Gag Reel for the next DVD set. (And would LOVE LOVE LOVE if Stuart would do a commentary for 401! Sounds like he has a lot of inner knowledge there.)
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 4, 2016 22:45:34 GMT -5
One major unexpected disappointment for me from this episode ---the music. Normally, the BATB season premieres have the BEST music behind them. The Pilot gave us "Midnight City," Snow Patrol's "The Weight of Love" and that wonderful "Never Let Me Go" ending song from Florence and the Machine. S2 had a heart-wrenching but beautiful song playing while Cat interacts with Vincent in her bedroom and realizes all that she has lost over the previous few months. S3 had that wonderful scene with MisterWives "Our House," which was WONDERFULLY appropriate in both song AND lyrics.
Nothing musically made an impression on me in this episode. Again, that is unusual for a BATB premiere. Maybe I was concentrating on other things. Any songs make any particular impressions on anyone? Should my BATB cd need anything extra?
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Post by ArwenFan on Jun 5, 2016 0:08:22 GMT -5
alwayscrazedbatbfan,
I have tried to get into The Blacklist twice and failed both times. For whatever reason the show just didn't grab me and I like James Spader a lot. I guess if the premise doesn't fit the fantasy/sci-fi/historical genre, I just can't get excited. LOL
IMO, the state of network television is atrocious. CW is especially bad in this area with it's comic book programming. I don't understand why they court projects that clearly don't fit into their narrow entertainment model. It's super annoying because the series will find an audience starving for something (anything!) approaching originality, then they re-tool and destroy for S2. I have no idea why the CW wants to be branded "the fanboy network," but they can have at it. I'm so done with them.
I haven't bothered to read the Outlander books. The author has dragged them out for far too long, IMO. I think there's like 8 or 9 books in the series now, and I don't have the time or desire to commit to another zillion page story written by a long-winded person. (I'm giving GRRM shade here.) The series got such rave reviews for its first season that I became curious, binged on S1 before S2 started, and I'm happy to say that I've found a worthy replacement for BATB. The leads Caitriona Balfe (Claire) and Sam Heughan (Jamie) "bring it" every episode. I would have killed to see the level of love, passion and adult communication that Jamie & Claire share between VinCat in S3. In addition, the story is interesting with top notch production values; everything is gorgeous from the costumes and scenery, to the sets and music (all original and really moving). The casting all around is pretty near perfect. And there is plenty of drama and conflict that doesn't depend on love triangles. Ack!
Back to Beast. Honestly, I don't know what they could do at this point to make me happy with the show anymore. It's a safe bet to say they can't, that ship has sailed. The writers/showrunner(s) have never been good at long term story development, character development (outside of Vincent and Catherine), conflict that wasn't unbecoming to adult people, or working A and B story lines effectively. It's too late for any of that now; my expectations for S4 are below curb level. And, no, nothing about 401 intrigued me. I started to make a list of all the things I literally hated, but this post was getting way too long, so I figured it would be better to list the things I liked: Tess's hair.
I haven't made up my mind yet about real time viewing. The promo for next week looked really, really dumb, so I'll probably swing by the board and get reactions before I watch on Hulu because I don't think I'm buying the Season Pass from iTunes.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 5, 2016 1:02:15 GMT -5
Should we link or move the current thread into here?
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Jun 5, 2016 1:09:29 GMT -5
I just wanted to say "hi" and I finally got caught up on S3 after losing interest mid-season and sitting on my DVR literally all year. Only for my DVR to fail to record 4x01. Never the less I watched, and I loved it. I don't think I will ever get over the things that happened in S2, and just the general loss of mojo. I'm trying to love my show again before it is over. I need to watch again before I say anything more. It was nice to see the show return a bit more to it's roots and rekindle the romance. I have so many shoulda, woulda, coulda feelings from the last two years of this show, I have to squint a little to rediscover the BATB love affair. Anyway, cheers to S4!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 3:27:00 GMT -5
Honestly, I get it that some people are disappointed with where the show is going but all in all this first episode was great for me, compared to some episodes from S3. I loved the VinCat chemistry. The first scene was swoonworthy and everything seemed so natural and genuine. I like the humour because as frustrating as it is for me that this is the last season, this humour makes me forget about that for a while. The truth is, even when you repeat a word too many times, you start questioning its existence. That's what happens to me when I start looking too much into everything. And to me there is and will never be a better onscreen couple than JayKris EVER. Just because in some other shows they do IT all the time and run naked around, doesn't mean they have a better plot and more chemistry. Kudos to Jay and KK for always bringing their best into every scene. I think it's safe to say that our cast are helluva better actors than some other actors from other "bigger" shows. BATB is the only show on the CW I think, in which their characters do actually have a job (besides Heather LOL) and are well educated. The other shows from this dumb network are all about vampires, arrows and hunting supernaturals or whatever. I think you can take our show as an example that you can become anything you want. I mean Vincent was a firefighter, soldier and now he's this hot doctor. I am still very sad that it's the last season and I still wish that some other network picks it as their program.
We've come so far, now it's just a few steps to go and then it's all over, sadly for me. We are beasties - we stick together and fight for our show. We're not called "the loyal fans" just for nothing.
BTW there is no Beauty without the Beast and no Beast without the Beauty. Cat is a strong female character and an idol to many people in real life to fight for justice and to fight for the loved ones. In this episode she had those crazy good fighting skills which the beast doesn't have lol. Like Vincent said in this episode - VinCat have overcome every obstacle that many other couples wouldn't have survived but our VinCat did just that and that's why they are EPIC in every way for me. I am so looking forward to the upcoming episodes. Still waiting for a VinCat baby lol - it doesn't matter when I get to see the baby, I just want to see my OTP with a baby.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 5:00:30 GMT -5
I agree with @lena , our show is more reality based than other even if we consider beast or superhuman stuff. More, Vincent is no way like a superhero, he is a man with lots of fears and that sometimes makes bad choices or act without thinking when it comes to Cat aor everyonelse's life. But for me is not a bad thing. And in this real world view, I think that those deep dialogs between Cat and Vincent have got no sense anymore: if you think about it, people tend to give voice to their feelings when they are not sure about what the other person feels or what they are feeling themselves. And that is only when you are not yet together, when you are not sure if you will stay together at the beginning of the romantic story or when something happen that makes you think that the feelings of you significant other have changed. Vincent and Cat are 100% sure that they love each other, and are 100% sure that the other person will be there to help, to save in any case. Their "I love you" are cute and sweet senteces between their lovely-dovey dialogs (Different from the "I Love you" in the last episode of S3 where Vincent didn't know if he will survive). They don't have anymore that inside struggle that is the base of those havy dialogs. Both Vincent and Cat have solved their issue in previous seasons: Vincent doesn't think anymore that he is a monster that everyone else but JT will hate, destined to live and die alone without the possibility to go back to his life; Catherine was finally able to open her heart and give faith to another person without constantly thinking that she will lost it, and she solved her rage against her mother... so why do they have to go on being dark and sufferig? We had comedy stuff even in S1 but were all left to JT who, except for the thing that he had to hide his friend and that he felt guily for being the cause for Vincent being a beast, was living his life. In S2 JT humor goes on, and we have some good jokes from Vincent as he regains part of his selfconfidence. In S3 JT had those inside struggle and in fact he had not got funny stuff in all the season (or at least nothing remarkable), while Vincent and Cat have few funny situations more than funny lines. At the beginning of S4 Vincent and Catherine are both on the same page and in that lovely bubble so they could be themselves in real life. If you notice, this was underline even with clothes and scene: previously even in love-scene all was dark, few lights, blankets were grey, it was night... now we have a mid-day lovely scene, white blankets and robe, full light, outside they are dressed with light color... and then by the time they return to NY everything change in dark blu, grey and black (it is summer both in NY and Paris). We had those light color only few times in S1, S2 and S3 (after the morning round in 1x16; in 2x15 and 2x16 only for few minutes after they wake up; in 3x01 in the awakening with the alarm clock) alwayscrazedbatbfan I think that a dialogs between them about what is like being able to walk around together in the crowd at in the daylight would have been ok in S3... now IMO it is too late because they have already passed that phase. (and that doeasn't mean I didn't like it too) It is obvious that Jan & Sherry realized a different show, I don't know if it was something wanted or that just happened because they were better writers and the chemistry between our leads was off the charts and just amplified what was supposed to be. What I mean is that probably that was not what the channel (or whoever is in chief) wanted, and the introduction of Bred Kern took lots of changes in the show (otherwise i think Jan & Sherry would have stayed in their place). What is clear is that besides what came out in S1, Vincent and Cat were not born to be a hot sexy couple like Jamie and Clair from Outlander so I don't think that anything of that kind will happen again; but the chemistry between J and KK is there even with all their clothes on. My hope is only for a long good kiss in full light between them :-)
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Post by ArwenFan on Jun 5, 2016 12:39:26 GMT -5
The amount of nudity on Outlander as opposed to BATB has literally nothing to do with my comparison. The two shows have a fantasy element, but are otherwise based in reality. That said, IMO, Outlander is simply a better show. It's better written, better acted and better produced. I'm not going to debate the chemistry between leads in various shows because good chemistry is not limited to JR & KK. Yes, they have it; it pretty much jumped off the screen in S1 & S2. But the writing and direction of the show focused less on that in S3 and changed the tone for me--primarily the VinCat dynamic which has always been the main draw. And, FOR ME, 401 did not return it. I can see that attempts were made to get back there, but it didn't seem as natural as in the past. I realize I may be reacting harshly to the first episode (and BATB may be the victim of residual bitterness brought on by another show that pissed me off this season), but I feel the way I feel. Nothing short of AMAZING would have tempered my response to 401. I didn't get it. I didn't expect to. I will have always have fondness for S1/S2 Beast and VinCat as a couple. That's the best I can do for now.
Regarding humor and BATB: I like my humor subtle (i.e. Vincent eating granola bar cereal from a measuring spoon) during a serious conversation as opposed to blatant attempts like Heather's ditziness (sleeping in VinCat's bed with a stranger and blithely shrugging it off for laughs). I signed up for a darkly romantic drama not a bright comedy adventure. I don't need or want to see Vincent acting like a doofus or dumbed down so that Catherine can be the sharpest tool in the box all the time. If they insist on having Heather in the mix, I need her to be a responsible, thoughtful adult. I need her to have her own place. I don't need to see Tess still blowing JT off whenever he has suspicions about beast danger. I don't need to see Cat falling off a bike because suddenly Vincent went blur speed. I don't need to see perfectly good actors brought in for guest or supporting roles and then poorly used. I like my drama to be a little dark and dangerous. I like my romance to have some (romance is different from sex and isn't reduced to longing looks from afar). I don't need an episode that looks like they checked off a series of boxes instead of laying the foundation for a breathtaking final season.
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Post by ebeline on Jun 5, 2016 14:36:00 GMT -5
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 5, 2016 22:18:56 GMT -5
There is still yet another way to think about 401: enjoy the lighthearted happy VinCat joking around with one another, because the clouds are heavily gathering on the horizon. (You know the old expression --Eat, Drink and be Merry, for tomorrow, We Die! That has come WAY to close to VinCat's way of having to live life!)
And if a show is gloomy/doomy all the time, fans would get tired of the whining and leave, especially if the obstacles facing the couple in question kept a high level of tension all the time. You can't sustain that. And who would want that level of seriousness/deadliness all the time.
I admit that at this time in my professional life, I deal with custody actions, unhappy children, split couples wanting revenge, etc. on a daily basis. So that is WHY I can appreciate a fun-loving VinCat. YES, I loved BATB from its inception and still miss S1. But I can admit I still really liked 401 and am glad BATB is still on the air, even if in a different form from the original.
I agree with Arwenfan to an extent that at the current time, the average Beastie IS laughing through an episode at Heather's antics. Oh, that Heather! BUT then you take a Reality Check and realize that you REALLY SHOULDN'T be laughing at Heather's way of handling things. No job, no apartment and seemingly No Direction. And no plan either--just recklessly propose a dangerous excursion into someone else's apartment, which IS AGAINST the law, and WILL keep her from employment AND a possible jail sentence if caught. And also willing to get physical with a guy she just met, KNOWING that VinCat have had to deal with people infiltrating their group before in the form of spies--including even Evan from S1, who unwittingly became Muirfield's pawn. Heather SHOULD have more sense. And I liked Heather better in other seasons when she had a REASON to be there other than comic-relief.
So from that point of view, it isn't cute what Heather is doing---it's dangerous. If BATB is meant to be a Romantic Comedy, then laugh away without worrying about the REAL consequences to someone like Heather. BUT if you are supposed to take it seriously, then the values there for Heather makes it likely she ends up dead. And Heather wanting to cut Cat off from scolding her shows me that she really DIDN'T learn anything from her misadventures and frolicking with Kyle in VinCat's bed (and I still say "EWWWWWW!").
Like others, I don't let Tess' sometime whiney nature and blowing off of JT keep me from enjoying BATB, even if often seemingly repetitive. AND, Tess actually ADMITTED she was in the wrong in 401 and should have listened to JT. She also agrees to be supportive of his forays into Beast-Issues and understanding of his wanting to be someone that does MORE than just be a college professor---JT wants to save the world, too, alongside VinCat. And I LOVE that about JT---he is always the best friend of Vincent that can't be deterred from anything. So PROGRESS MADE in 401. Not going around in circles like S3.
And JT being the way he is only makes Tess a better friend to Cat as well, AT LEAST AS OF 401. I have no idea about moving forward---it is ALWAYS interesting to see how Tess handles the crisis. S2 really made you think Tess would actually embrace Gabe's plan in order to "protect" Cat, but you saw that Tess was loyal to the end, even taking the suspension, to continue to help Cat help Vincent. So Tess can still surprise me, AS SHE DID in 401. She won't go LOOKING for the Beast Crisis, but she WILL be supportive moving forward when it comes.
So I still like what BATB says about the characters of Tess and JT---they come through in the end, even if they do so in sometimes stupid or reckless ways or are late in providing the support to VinCat. It will be interesting to see if Tess can keep her JOB by season's end, given the close calls of 401.
Plus, 401 may offer up something else that could come BACK to bite Tess later---Cat's report alleges how the Beast hunter died. It attempts to explain-away something (AND I am guessing that she did NOT put in the report that Vincent was there---so WHY would the Beast Hunter have kidnapped Cat in the first place? HOW did Cat explain that?).
So there is more to 401 then first meets the eye. And we will probably enjoy the humor and happiness between VinCat even more once the REAL trouble kicks in---after all, SOMEONE was pulling the strings of the Beast Hunter. More bounty hunters are likely to follow, and if the first beast hunter could get so much information, WE DO NOT YET KNOW IF HE PASSED SAID INFO on to others or if anyone else will BOTHER to cover-up and classify stuff since that one particular remaining agent is now deceased.
The government (Homeland) will NOT want to look bad, so they are not likely to back VinCat if other bloggers come forward and other murders happen. Especially since the agent that REALLY knew what had happened is dead. It is just a matter of time.
I do want some comic-relief after a day at my job, so I can LIKE the humor that has been added from the tail-end of S2 BATB to the present. Is it sometimes too much, yes. But I am still enjoying it at this early state of the season.
But no matter how I sometimes feel about the minor players on BATB, Jay and KK will ALWAYS keep me rooted to my screen. They can make everything out of even Kern's vision. If BATB is truly dead after S4, then I really would want to see Jay and KK be hired on another show. That Chemistry grabbed me from their very first scene interacting together at the warehouse. And while that seriousness between them is gone at present in 401, it is likely to be back in some form with the evolution of the season. So I am in to the very end.
(But I can still wish Sherri and Jenn were back for some of the VinCat dialogue when the heat really starts cooking plotwise, and Vincent is once-again threatened. STILL, the VinCat chemistry still gets me through the less adequate writers. And for that I entirely bless Jay and KK.)
And yes, I can still wish KK had her own supernatural beast-link plot, too. BUT I agree with others that Catherine is Vincent's equal in every way--from values to wanting to save others to loyalty to friends and one another, etc. I LOVE that about her that she can hold her own WITHOUT powers and save herself when necessary, AND save Vincent as well sometimes.
It is just the reality that the Beast-part of Vincent's existence will ALWAYS attract those that want to exploit him. Catherine signed up for that life with Vincent way back in S1, and she has never really faltered from that. And her LOYALTY and perseverance in fighting by Vincent's side for as normal a life as they can get together MAKES the show for me, even if her plotline often DOES seem to center on who is after the Beast now.
So while I'm still critical of some things I see on my screen and even still long for S1 (and parts of S2), don't mistake me for anything less than a diehard Beastie until the end. Will sometimes roar though, if I don't like something. But I try to be quick to point out what I still LOVE about BATB as well.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 6, 2016 21:41:46 GMT -5
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Post by Jewels on Jun 6, 2016 23:14:11 GMT -5
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