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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 22:46:16 GMT -5
Arwenfan,
I am with you and others regarding Cat's question. The writers were going for the romance angle, but that is just twisted. Yes, maybe they couldn't live without one another, but I DEFINITELY think that should have been written differently. Or else, have Cat ask the question but say, "I would want to know that you WOULDN'T stop your heart. I could die knowing you would carry our love in your heart and memories. That I would always be with you and still in the world since you would carry me with you always." Or something to that effect. And THAT is where I found the writing to be out-of-character because Cat has ALWAYS wanted Vincent to survive, even if it costs her life. She doesn't want him to die with her.
I felt the writers were basically trying to find a way to give Vincent that great line. But THAT was the first time that I thought there was something to the worst side of co-dependency thing.
Also, haven't read Nick's review yet, and I usually mostly love and agree with him. But NOT on this one. From Season 1 forward, the issue was made that Vincent, in trying to defend others, can't control the beast resulting in death. So the force used always ends up being excessive force that results in the death of the person. But we REALLY weren't crying over the rapists and would-be murderers that Vincent put in the grave in Season 1 who were IN THE ACT of committing SERIOUSLY EVIL crimes. But again, it was in defense of others, WHICH WAS PRESENT HERE. BOB was the one to bring the knife out when Vincent didn't have a weapon, other than claws. Bob was the one that had taunted Vincent about what was happening to the person he loved the most in this world because Vincent couldn't be there--even though he apologized for what was to "happen" to Cat, it was clear that the plan was to KILL her. So Vincent was fighting for his life, and Bob lost the fight (and his life). Again, Bob was responsible for knowingly bringing forth the beast in the first place.
The sad but real truth was that if he couldn't be successful in his mission, Bob WANTED to die, knowing there was no saving himself (or Carol) from the serum. THOSE COMMENTS were made by Bob and Carol about their situation earlier in the episode. So when Bob had basically lost, I really felt he would RATHER the quick death by Vincent's hands in battle then the slow and torturous one otherwise promised to him. SO THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. Because ultimately, Bob's quick death was an almost mercy-killing. (I felt THIS was the REASON why the writers had Cat questioning Carol about the big-bad---they wanted to show that the duo was SO AFRAID of going back to the organization empty-handed because there would be no survival or easy death.)
Now Arwenfan, here is where I agree with Nick's SENTIMENT, to a point. Vincent nearly DOES throw morality away in his potential attack of JT. You can see how the beast really wants to go after a fallen JT that CAN'T defend himself. Yet JT has complete faith. And Vincent, remembering his LOVE for Cat, is able to pull himself together. So MORALITY saved. THAT SIDE of Vincent is thus still there, even when the beast is at his Most Primal. So THAT was the only potential morality-losing thing that hangs over Vincent's head in the future--the fact that he DOES seemingly want to attack ANYONE, even innocents, when in his ultimate PRIMAL RAGE mode. BUT HE DIDN'T here, because he had something worth fighting for more, love. WHICH IS THE REASON I LOVE THIS SHOW SO FREAKING MUCH!!!!!!!!!! EPIC LOVE baby!!! Trumps over Primal Rage any day!
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Post by Bill the beast on Jul 9, 2015 22:50:23 GMT -5
Have to disagree with some of ya, here: All time best last lines of any episode of Beauty and the Beast GOES TO...
Most Dangerous Beast (3x05) !!!
V: "Every time I see you." C: "Aw... "
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 23:04:06 GMT -5
Bill the Beast:
LOVED the answer. Was heart-stoppingly romantic. Felt Vincent really got what Cat actually meant by her question.
But the question, itself, was creepy without some other qualifiers or explanations. At least in the way it was asked. I would rather Cat have qualified it by something also heart-stoppingly romantic, such as "Because I could die at peace, knowing you would survive. And that you would carry me with you and our love always." Because I don't think Cat WANTS for Vincent to die because of her at all. It was really her way of asking if he loved her as much as Bob and Carol loved one another. Which, of COURSE, we know, is YES to the max. Epic, baby!
But Vincent's answer was immediate and SO SWEET and romantic. Swoonworthy, actually. Like always, he just understands Cat and realizes WHERE her question comes from. So LOVED that! Their hearts beat for one another is how we are meant to take it. I can certainly get behind that!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 23:13:20 GMT -5
Will add this --- I know it is a short season and all, so we CAN'T get attached to certain villains and have them last for long. But we had to endure Sam last season for HOW many episodes? Just really kind of sorry that we had to lose Bob and Carol so soon. Since they are their own sort-of VinCat, would have liked to see and know more about them. Why did they get serum in the first place? BOTH of them as well! Real story there. So could have enjoyed seeing them some more. Actually feeling a little sad for the loss of the villains (well, not Bob, by the end.) Just HOW did these two end up assassins in the first place?
Again, gave us nothing more towards the big-bad other than the feeling that we are supposed to see them as being so bad that Bob actually WANTED that quick death from Vincent, once he had lost, then the slow lingering death-by-serum that seemed promised to both him and Carol. So they obviously KNEW a great deal about the serum, its origin, and what had happened to others.
PLUS, it sounds like Vincent is practically legendary amongst the serum creators, based on what Bob was aluding to. And that they would do ANYTHING to get him. But why? What does Vincent have that they need so badly? Still more questions. So APPRECIATING the build-up!
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Post by missingalias on Jul 9, 2015 23:14:25 GMT -5
Bill the Beast: LOVED the answer. Was heart-stoppingly romantic. Felt Vincent really got what Cat actually meant by her question. But the question, itself, was creepy without some other qualifiers or explanations. At least in the way it was asked. I would rather Cat have qualified it by something also heart-stoppingly romantic, such as "Because I could die at peace, knowing you would survive. And that you would carry me with you and our love always." Because I don't think Cat WANTS for Vincent to die because of her at all. It was really her way of asking if he loved her as much as Bob and Carol loved one another. Which, of COURSE, we know, is YES to the max. Epic, baby! But Vincent's answer was immediate and SO SWEET and romantic. Swoonworthy, actually. Like always, he just understands Cat and realizes WHERE her question comes from. So LOVED that! Their hearts beat for one another is how we are meant to take it. I can certainly get behind that! I couldn't agree with you more! It's written just as I would have myself. I love the answer and could have melted to the ground. Also the pained grunt Vincent let out when he thought Cat is dead..I swear it almost killed me! It was pure pain of loosing her. the only thing was that it resulted in one of the worst parts of the episode as we didn't see the reunion at all! What was up with that?! That was purely mean writing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 23:21:49 GMT -5
305-The Most Dangerous Beast..here are my two cents, more like two dollars...but who's counting! I had said I would start at the beginning, but, some how, the end seems to be a more appropriate place to start. The truth is that BatB often brings to my mind Carmen Laforet’s novel Nada, where she presents the idea that not only does history repeat itself (hola Alistair and Rebecca), but that each of us lives our life in a cyclical pattern, especially when it comes to our relationships, each cycle with a clear beginning and end that leads into a new beginning…but with the same behaviours repeating themselves over and over again. In the novel, her characters are living destructive cycles, and she makes it clear that the only possible outcome if they are unable to make changes, to adapt, to grow and escape these vicious circles, is death (adiós Carol and Bob). While her story takes place over the exact period of a year and begins and ends in the same way, the events in 305 take place over a period of 24 hours and it begins and ends in the same place, Il Cantuccio [corner/cubby/nook and/or crunchy biscuit-remember VinCat sitting in their own little corner in the café and Vincent breaking the biscuit to share with Catherine (as a symbol of breaking the cycle-I think I’m on to something!)? A coincidence? I think not!], a coffee shop soon to become another BatB classic VinCat setting, I believe. (The jury is still out as to how I feel about this; I guess time will tell!) Let’s talk about the ending: it was cute. There were sweet kisses and gazes of love, tenderness and acceptance were exchanged and it was clear that the world revolving around them had seized to exist in that perfect little VinCat moment. (So why do I keep asking myself “Who are they?” –Could the real VinCat please stand up???). In that final scene, it was clear that they had both made great progress in this 24 hour cycle…Vincent had come to see that his attitude was a little too “laissez faire” and Catherine had realized that she needed to “chill, hermana” just a little, and they had both come to understand (as Kahlil Gibran so eloquently put it), that it is important to be together “but let each one of you be alone, even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music” and stand together “yet not too near together: for the pillars of the temple stand apart, and the oak and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow”. Who needs a therapist? (Although I really liked him!) I would have happily loaned them my copy of The Prophet! Somehow, once again, this episode left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Why??? Because while by the tender age of 23 Laforet had already mastered the artful technique of subtlety, our Batb writers…..not so much so….which brings me to the beginning of the episode. Jesús, María and José…has anyone counted the number of times the writers have knocked us over the head with a club? ?…does Catherine have to use almost the exact line she used in the closing scene of 304:”after two years of defining ourselves mostly by whatever those things are, it’s hard to break the habit…” ? Blah, blah, blah…How many times do we have to hear the word co-dependancy? ?? Et tu, Tess…really? ? Give me a break, writers…I actually get it, get it…no need to rub it in any further!!!! It is starting to hurt…like alcohol on an open wound… And everything in between the beginning and the end was just filling: at times delectable, at times tasteless and at times missing in action. Some delectable moments: the “itch with an A” line, SOME of Cat’s and Tess’ interactions, Vincent DRIVING!!!!, JT calling Tess to tell her “I love you” before heading to face possible death, Vincent’s MacGyver skills, Carol realizing by the look on Cat’s face that she has lost Bob….. Two tasteless moments: Is Catherine that insensitive that she really does not care about JT’s well-being…! Who are you? ?(So not the person I believe she is-and for me, KK overacted in a few scenes of this episode too.) Is there or isn’t there cell reception where Vincent is??? Make up your minds, people!! A moment I’d like to have included: It was a beautiful set up when Catherine said to Carol that “in the end it is going to be Vincent who walks through that door…” ¿Qué pasó? Would it have killed them to give us just that scene? From my perspective, it would have made delectable moment #6 even more effective…and while I’m here, let me just add that I would have loved to believe for one moment that Vincent was in real danger, I would have loved to see Catherine truly worried about his well-being and he about hers….well, there is a lot I would have loved to have experienced… So I am down on my knees praying that in episode 306 our VinCat will be at the beginning of a new cycle and that by some divine inspiration and intervention, the writers will have figured out how to convincingly and realistically portray these two characters and how to dramatically and grippingly present the events in the plot so that we are able to see and feel, without blatant exposition, all that we long to see and feel. At the moment I seem to be in my own destructive cycle where my beloved show is concerned….I am hoping for change, or I’ll be the one who ends up dead, dead! By the way, I am happy, happy for my fellow beasties who are thoroughly enjoying the ride this season. I hope that if BatB comes to meet a few more of my expectations, you will all also continue to love what you are seeing on your screens! #soclosetosinkingintothepitofdespair but #neversinkingintothepitofIdon’tcare
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:22:52 GMT -5
Nick Roman said: "Assuming J.T. has been killed, Vincent snaps free from his chains and beasts out on Bob, snapping his neck and killing him altogether. And although J.T.’s healing factor is already kicking in, it’s too late to take back Bob’s murder. Of course, it’s about more than J.T. though. Remember, Vincent is operating under the assumption that Carol may have killed Cat. In essence, Vincent is someone with nothing left to lose. And a beast with nothing left to lose is a HORRIFYING prospect, especially when it results in Vincent killing someone as quickly and as easily as he killed Bob. This introduces an aspect of morality into the overall dilemma. Early in the episode, Vincent passes Bob’s “morality check”. But by the end of the episode? He’s essentially thrown morality out the window, and it shows in the difference in approach between his side of the story and Cat’s." Since when is self-defense murder, beast mode or not? It appeared that Bob pulled a big old knife out on Vincent and it looked to me like Vincent buried the knife in Bob's throat. (I admit that I have to re-watch the episode on a device with smoother playback to be sure of this.) Bob taunted Vincent that Cat was dead, but I did not get the feeling the Vincent actually believed him. Bob was hardly an innocent in this situation. His death is an acceptable casualty, IMO. I can't disagree enough with the notion that Vincent has thrown morality out the window or that the comparison of approaches used by Vincat is fair. If Cat had not been able to subdue Carol, there is no doubt in my mind she would have have managed to kill her. If Vincent had failed to kill Bob, Vincent would have been dead. Where is the problem, Nick? Sometimes a tree is just a tree. Havent read review but this death was necessary .. Don't see why nick saw it that way. Will read review later
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 23:29:23 GMT -5
REALLY. I mean it, this time. LAST COMMENT on this one. (Although HAVE to add--so glad to be so EXCITED for an episode after the uneasiness of the last one! When I don't fully enjoy an episode of BATB, I am REALLY beast-like and unsettled and almost calling for pitchforks to go after the writers! I HAVE to protect My VinCat, if I don't feel the writers are doing so at times!)
Speaking of MORALITY--just HOW did Bob and Carol lose THEIRS so badly?? Carol can just so conveniently KILL that poor restaurant owner across the street, stand in his blood, and bury his reputation forever by leaving the meth bag, all just to lure Cat. Who she actually seemed to like. To her death. COLD.
And THEIR version of the serum HEIGHTENED their senses, NOT causing them to beast-out. So they don't have some "primal" creature to blame that can't really think for itself due to adrenaline. IN FACT, their FOCUSING ability just lets them be far more aware of JUST what they are doing. Like Vincent said to Bob, he didn't HAVE to kill the man in the woods. THEY CHOSE to kill randomly and seemingly with little to no emotion.
REALLY makes you want to know just WHY someone would choose THESE TWO to have the serum. Were they already assassins before? Were they recruited by this organization for a particular purpose? How could anyone trust people so coldly calculating unless the big-bad is JUST THAT EVIL enough to not have to fear any possible retaliation.
While Cat sees Carol's choice of death as romantic, I found it ultimately less so. Carol would rather end her life than wait for the serum or the organization to do it. Which means Cat's instincts are spot-on about needing to get to these people, fast, due to the carnage they can accumulate, based on the serum creations they are coming up with. REALLY wanting more answers now!
And I LOVED how this episode shows JUST HOW much VinCat are NOT like Bob and Carol! How Vincent had faith in Cat to take on Carol. How Vincent had love enough for Cat to pull himself back from the edge, even IF Cat were dead. And how VinCat had friends willing to support them and take on a truck for them! (SHOWS how Bob and Carol had ONLY each other and certainly didn't evoke such emotion and love from anyone else outside of themselves.) And how Cat remained strong, even when knowing Vincent was being directly threatened, in order to take out Carol. Both could fight their individual battles, KNOWING that it would help the other in the long run, and having faith that each would be successful. LOVED that! Gave me Season 1 feels even WITHOUT the beautiful but brief montage of Season 1 VinCat moments!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 23:36:06 GMT -5
MissingAlias:
YES! That was the one true thing lacking from this episode ---THE REUNION. WHY did the writers make THAT occur offscreen? I mean, they showed the JT and Tess one. Seriously, don't they know that we Beasties LIVE for those moments! What they would have SAID to each other. What they would have DONE! (Well, THAT would have warranted a rating of NC-17, so no surprises there!) But they could have at least ALUDED to what went on! To be deprived of a scene that would have been SO passionate just strikes me as wrong. One of those times when the writers need to just be chained and locked in a basement for time-out, as they KNOW what they didn't do!
(Because, seriously, we all know that VinCat would have NOT come up for air for a lengthy amount of time. I mean, really, I am assuming that last coffee house scene occurred 2 weeks AFTER they finally got out of bed, if they ever made it to a flat surface at all. I mean, Cat's blouse, which was really nice by the way, would have NEVER survived intact. And that is the REAL reason they never show Cat in lingerie---Vincent immediately rips it off, so nothing ever left for her to wear for any lengthy amount of time.)
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:43:14 GMT -5
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:46:44 GMT -5
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 9, 2015 23:51:16 GMT -5
AND I am still at the office commenting on this one. Even though I have work still to be done up here. And it is after midnight now. Just goes to show my love for BATB.
And LOCAXBATB, I am so sorry that you didn't like this one. And in reading your post, I really can't disagree with it either. I guess I am happy just to get BATB still, and I think this episode is in par with this season. I also haven't liked the whole co-dependency thing and how it has been handled either. But I am trying to see where the writers are going, and I still love these characters so, although I don't like some of the things being done to them either. Hate having to feel the need to always try to defend the characters. But still remains fun to see the individual quirks that the writers bring out, whether I agree if it is in-character or not. Still find it interesting and am excited for upcoming episodes. Hopefully, when we look back on the season as a whole, we will get the overall meaning and not resent or dislike some of the individual ways said theme was brought about. Still trying to be optimistic, although I admit that I was downright bitter last week.
And LOVE the book comparison! I will have to add another. Does this season not remind you a little of the tone and voice of Voltaire's Candide? Horribly evil things happening, with no regards to morality, yet just more of the same everyday and not really to be taken seriously? You don't really fear the horridness going on and just expect those kind of things to happen everyday? Even though their SHOULD be some sort of outcry against what is happening? And indeed is just expected by the characters.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:51:25 GMT -5
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:54:48 GMT -5
305-The Most Dangerous Beast..here are my two cents, more like two dollars...but who's counting! I hope that if BatB comes to meet a few more of my expectations, you will all also continue to love what you are seeing on your screens! if it meets a few more of your expectations loca I will be jumping up and down the bed in excitement
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 9, 2015 23:56:01 GMT -5
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