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Post by Bill the beast on Jun 16, 2015 23:58:28 GMT -5
(1) Cat's car Someone mentioned that Cat was driving a Mustang but that has never been the case. In the Pilot after we see that Cat became a cop not a lawyer, she is racing a smokin' hot Dodge Charger through the streets of NYC. This is so appropriate for Cat. The Dodge Charger comes with a 700 horsepower option. By comparison, a normal car would have a couple hundred horsepower.
Then in S2 she switched to a KIA, a decision that may have had more to do with product placement than suitability. The KIA logo was very prominent. Then toward the end of S2, as they are chasing around Manhattan looking for the dungeon, the smoking hot Charger is back. Happy to see it made it into S3. Nothing else would do.
(2) Losing your humanity I want to weigh in on this theme of "Vincent losing his humanity". From Cat's point-of-view, I like that she has this firm moral sense. It is consistent with all that we've seen of her. If Vincent were to choose his dark side, it would destroy her love for him.
But what annoys me is this illogical idea about killing any "innocent" Beast means "Vincent loses his humanity". As others have pointed out, he killed many on his Beast missions. He had to. I thought this was dealt with in S2. Remember Sam turning all the Jacob Sutter's into Beasts against their will? Vincent had to fight them. None of that was Vincent's fault.
This may be more Cat's problem than anything. After Cat has to shoot the final Jacob Sutter to save Gabe ("Redemption", 2.14), she agonizes over it. "I just pulled the trigger... the first time it didn't even cross my mind I was shooting a person too." I'm sorry but that's not the thing to focus on when you've just managed to save your boyfriend's life! Maybe Jacob didn't choose his fate but you didn't choose to be his victim either.
(3) Theme of "creating Beasts out of innocents" in S3 You mean like Muirfield? You mean like the cabal of international bad guys in "About Last Night" (2.16 ) who had experimented on Sam's son and countless others? Supposedly, Gabe was able to arrest them all. Maybe now we are dealing with a different cabal of international bad guys? I can't comprehend Cat speaking as if this was something that never occurred to her.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 17, 2015 2:05:36 GMT -5
(1) Cat's carSomeone mentioned that Cat was driving a Mustang but that has never been the case. In the Pilot after we see that Cat became a cop not a lawyer, she is racing a smokin' hot Dodge Charger through the streets of NYC. This is so appropriate for Cat. The Dodge Charger comes with a 700 horsepower option. By comparison, a normal car would have a couple hundred horsepower. Then in S2 she switched to a KIA, a decision that may have had more to do with product placement than suitability. The KIA logo was very prominent. Then toward the end of S2, as they are chasing around Manhattan looking for the dungeon, the smoking hot Charger is back. Happy to see it made it into S3. Nothing else would do. Sorry Bill, but you need to rewatch S2 again. Throughout the majority of S2 Cat is driving a blue Mustang not a KIA. She switched to the KIA towards the middle latter half of S1. In the opening sequence of 301, Cat is driving the same blue Mustang that she drove throughout most of S2.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 17, 2015 2:48:08 GMT -5
(1) Cat's carSomeone mentioned that Cat was driving a Mustang but that has never been the case. In the Pilot after we see that Cat became a cop not a lawyer, she is racing a smokin' hot Dodge Charger through the streets of NYC. This is so appropriate for Cat. The Dodge Charger comes with a 700 horsepower option. By comparison, a normal car would have a couple hundred horsepower. Then in S2 she switched to a KIA, a decision that may have had more to do with product placement than suitability. The KIA logo was very prominent. Then toward the end of S2, as they are chasing around Manhattan looking for the dungeon, the smoking hot Charger is back. Happy to see it made it into S3. Nothing else would do. (2) Losing your humanityI want to weigh in on this theme of "Vincent losing his humanity". From Cat's point-of-view, I like that she has this firm moral sense. It is consistent with all that we've seen of her. If Vincent were to choose his dark side, it would destroy her love for him. But what annoys me is this illogical idea about killing any "innocent" Beast means "Vincent loses his humanity". As others have pointed out, he killed many on his Beast missions. He had to. I thought this was dealt with in S2. Remember Sam turning all the Jacob Sutter's into Beasts against their will? Vincent had to fight them. None of that was Vincent's fault. This may be more Cat's problem than anything. After Cat has to shoot the final Jacob Sutter to save Gabe ("Redemption", 2.14), she agonizes over it. "I just pulled the trigger... the first time it didn't even cross my mind I was shooting a person too." I'm sorry but that's not the thing to focus on when you've just managed to save your boyfriend's life! Maybe Jacob didn't choose his fate but you didn't choose to be his victim either. (3) Theme of "creating Beasts out of innocents" in S3You mean like Muirfield? You mean like the cabal of international bad guys in "About Last Night" (2.16 ) who had experimented on Sam's son and countless others? Supposedly, Gabe was able to arrest them all. Maybe now we are dealing with a different cabal of international bad guys? I can't comprehend Cat speaking as if this was something that never occurred to her. regarding your first point - i would not know lol. cars are definitely not my thing - i can barely remember what i dirve regarding your second and third points - spot on
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 17, 2015 13:03:40 GMT -5
(1) Cat's carSomeone mentioned that Cat was driving a Mustang but that has never been the case. In the Pilot after we see that Cat became a cop not a lawyer, she is racing a smokin' hot Dodge Charger through the streets of NYC. This is so appropriate for Cat. The Dodge Charger comes with a 700 horsepower option. By comparison, a normal car would have a couple hundred horsepower. Then in S2 she switched to a KIA, a decision that may have had more to do with product placement than suitability. The KIA logo was very prominent. Then toward the end of S2, as they are chasing around Manhattan looking for the dungeon, the smoking hot Charger is back. Happy to see it made it into S3. Nothing else would do. (2) Losing your humanityI want to weigh in on this theme of "Vincent losing his humanity". From Cat's point-of-view, I like that she has this firm moral sense. It is consistent with all that we've seen of her. If Vincent were to choose his dark side, it would destroy her love for him. But what annoys me is this illogical idea about killing any "innocent" Beast means "Vincent loses his humanity". As others have pointed out, he killed many on his Beast missions. He had to. I thought this was dealt with in S2. Remember Sam turning all the Jacob Sutter's into Beasts against their will? Vincent had to fight them. None of that was Vincent's fault. This may be more Cat's problem than anything. After Cat has to shoot the final Jacob Sutter to save Gabe ("Redemption", 2.14), she agonizes over it. "I just pulled the trigger... the first time it didn't even cross my mind I was shooting a person too." I'm sorry but that's not the thing to focus on when you've just managed to save your boyfriend's life! Maybe Jacob didn't choose his fate but you didn't choose to be his victim either. (3) Theme of "creating Beasts out of innocents" in S3You mean like Muirfield? You mean like the cabal of international bad guys in "About Last Night" (2.16 ) who had experimented on Sam's son and countless others? Supposedly, Gabe was able to arrest them all. Maybe now we are dealing with a different cabal of international bad guys? I can't comprehend Cat speaking as if this was something that never occurred to her. regarding your first point - i would not know lol. cars are definitely not my thing - i can barely remember what i dirveregarding your second and third points - spot on The above is the CW video promo of 2x02. At 10 secs in, you can see the blue Mustang that was featured throughout S2 as Cat's car. Here's a screen cap of the opening sequence of 3x01. Same blue Mustang.
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Post by batb4evr1 on Jun 17, 2015 13:28:07 GMT -5
Final Thoughts on this one: 1) LOVED: How Catherine is just waiting for Vincent on the roof at "their" time at the end of the episode, EVEN IF she doesn't expect him to show up. And her deep sadness at thinking he needed the space and wouldn't show. AND she is TRYING to meet Vincent's needs--she asks him if he needs space and if he wants her there at the boathouse. --There is DEFINITE insecurity there--that she may have damaged the relationship irreparably, that he might not want her if some kind of strings/uncertainty attached, concern that the beast issues can't ever be truly behind them. Catherine really worries that SHE IS NOT ENOUGH for Vincent. 2) "We do this TOGETHER or not at all." --Whatever action is taken, it will be together. And neither of them really want to be in this position at all BUT recognize that the only choice would be to ignore someone else's suffering, which they will NOT do. 3) Vincent's Beast issues: As in "Operation: Fake Date," Vincent ADMITS that he literally was on the HUNT to actually KILL the guy. Vincent and Catherine both know when Vincent is on a "mission" and that as an Alpha Predator, he WON'T stop until the threat is eliminated. THAT still stands. HOWEVER, it is VINCENT HIMSELF that recognizes that Catherine is his reason for fighting, the balm to his rage, the reason to his beastly rage. She gives him a reason to come back to himself AND a reason NOT to kill. Vincent defines himself as "LOST" without her at his side. 4) CHANGES from 208: Cat uses her VOICE ALONE to talk Vincent down. She shot at the LOCK on the gate. Thereafter, the gun was not in play. She gave VINCENT the choice AND TRUSTED that he would make the right one. Which he DID. And she CLEARLY was never threatened personally, as she comes as close to Vincent as she can get. So she never feared in danger for her personal safety. So TRUST is there between the two. And LOVE is there. And PASSION. ALL of that seen in this episode. Things that were MISSING in 208 and show how far the characters have come since then. ---I LIKED how we got to see how far the characters have come since Season 2. They NEED each other now AND FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE IT. The same exact situation played out VERY DIFFERENTLY here because the characters are assured of their commitment to one another. Vincent WON'T risk his relationship with Catherine--he WILL do what he needs to do to preserve his humanity, which he credits HER with providing him the necessary motivation. Alwayscrazed, what can I add? Not a thing at this time!
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Post by corinne on Jun 17, 2015 14:15:18 GMT -5
Final Thoughts on this one: 1) LOVED: How Catherine is just waiting for Vincent on the roof at "their" time at the end of the episode, EVEN IF she doesn't expect him to show up. And her deep sadness at thinking he needed the space and wouldn't show. AND she is TRYING to meet Vincent's needs--she asks him if he needs space and if he wants her there at the boathouse. --There is DEFINITE insecurity there--that she may have damaged the relationship irreparably, that he might not want her if some kind of strings/uncertainty attached, concern that the beast issues can't ever be truly behind them. Catherine really worries that SHE IS NOT ENOUGH for Vincent. 4) CHANGES from 208: Cat uses her VOICE ALONE to talk Vincent down. She shot at the LOCK on the gate. Thereafter, the gun was not in play. She gave VINCENT the choice AND TRUSTED that he would make the right one. Which he DID. And she CLEARLY was never threatened personally, as she comes as close to Vincent as she can get. So she never feared in danger for her personal safety. So TRUST is there between the two. And LOVE is there. And PASSION. ALL of that seen in this episode. Things that were MISSING in 208 and show how far the characters have come since then. ---I LIKED how we got to see how far the characters have come since Season 2. They NEED each other now AND FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE IT. The same exact situation played out VERY DIFFERENTLY here because the characters are assured of their commitment to one another. Vincent WON'T risk his relationship with Catherine--he WILL do what he needs to do to preserve his humanity, which he credits HER with providing him the necessary motivation. I totally agree on your 1) I'm always talking about Vincent's character and qualities and hotness etc. but one thing is sure ; I love how Catherine has always been respectful of Vincent, never pushy or insistant or indecent...she truly pays attention to what he might be feeling. Whatever he's endured or done, she's always been patient with him, thinking about him before anything else. That's true love.
About your point 4) now, for me it remains really similar to S2. Yes she doesn't threaten to shoot him, yes there is more trust, after all they are together, they've endured so many things since then....but the fact that she would evoke the "humanity" again, for me it was purely to explain the underlying big issue to potential new viewers as we start a new season. Because if she trusts him 100%, then she should not need to talk him out of this. Actually she would not even need to be there. And I think she does love him and trust him. That's why it was for me the unecessary repetitive scène of 301.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 17, 2015 14:42:19 GMT -5
Final Thoughts on this one: 1) LOVED: How Catherine is just waiting for Vincent on the roof at "their" time at the end of the episode, EVEN IF she doesn't expect him to show up. And her deep sadness at thinking he needed the space and wouldn't show. AND she is TRYING to meet Vincent's needs--she asks him if he needs space and if he wants her there at the boathouse. --There is DEFINITE insecurity there--that she may have damaged the relationship irreparably, that he might not want her if some kind of strings/uncertainty attached, concern that the beast issues can't ever be truly behind them. Catherine really worries that SHE IS NOT ENOUGH for Vincent. 4) CHANGES from 208: Cat uses her VOICE ALONE to talk Vincent down. She shot at the LOCK on the gate. Thereafter, the gun was not in play. She gave VINCENT the choice AND TRUSTED that he would make the right one. Which he DID. And she CLEARLY was never threatened personally, as she comes as close to Vincent as she can get. So she never feared in danger for her personal safety. So TRUST is there between the two. And LOVE is there. And PASSION. ALL of that seen in this episode. Things that were MISSING in 208 and show how far the characters have come since then. ---I LIKED how we got to see how far the characters have come since Season 2. They NEED each other now AND FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE IT. The same exact situation played out VERY DIFFERENTLY here because the characters are assured of their commitment to one another. Vincent WON'T risk his relationship with Catherine--he WILL do what he needs to do to preserve his humanity, which he credits HER with providing him the necessary motivation. I totally agree on your 1) I'm always talking about Vincent's character and qualities and hotness etc. but one thing is sure ; I love how Catherine has always been respectful of Vincent, never pushy or insistant or indecent...she truly pays attention to what he might be feeling. Whatever he's endured or done, she's always been patient with him, thinking about him before anything else. That's true love.
About your point 4) now, for me it remains really similar to S2. Yes she doesn't threaten to shoot him, yes there is more trust, after all they are together, they've endured so many things since then....but the fact that she would evoke the "humanity" again, for me it was purely to explain the underlying big issue to potential new viewers as we start a new season. Because if she trusts him 100%, then she should not need to talk him out of this. Actually she would not even need to be there. And I think she does love him and trust him. That's why it was for me the unecessary repetitive scène of 301.
i think one of the things that became apparent though in the next episode (302) is that trust is STILL a big issue for both ... amongst other issues as well...they have a long way to go to a) trust who they are and what they want for themselves b) trust that the other person will always want to be with them unconditionally c) cat trusting that vincent will not succumb to his beast side and wil not always need her d) vincent trusting that he will not succubm to the beast side and can be independent/not needy of cat's help in that respect - i think all these issues will be key for the rest of the season and trust will be a repeated theme
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Post by corinne on Jun 17, 2015 15:28:51 GMT -5
i think one of the things that became apparent though in the next episode (302) is that trust is STILL a big issue for both ... amongst other issues as well...they have a long way to go to a) trust who they are and what they want for themselves b) trust that the other person will always want to be with them unconditionally c) cat trusting that vincent will not succumb to his beast side and wil not always need her d) vincent trusting that he will not succubm to the beast side and can be independent/not needy of cat's help in that respect - i think all these issues will be key for the rest of the season and trust will be a repeated theme I don't know what they have in store for the rest of season 3, but knowing how they, as a couple, have always tried to be honest to each other, and how that's what we love about their love story, and how important it is for her and how many time she's said it, and how hurt she'd been when he had lied to her (bathing suit story) I would think that if she agreed to marry him, that means she trusts him already, at least on the major threat that is his beast side. At the end of season2, she had said it so. That's why I didn't find this scene necessary...but you can tell me she had not said yes back then
Now, YES, she will probably (and he will probably) still doubts the other one's unconditional love. That's expected and normal, and that won't annoy me
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 17, 2015 15:32:37 GMT -5
i think one of the things that became apparent though in the next episode (302) is that trust is STILL a big issue for both ... amongst other issues as well...they have a long way to go to a) trust who they are and what they want for themselves b) trust that the other person will always want to be with them unconditionally c) cat trusting that vincent will not succumb to his beast side and wil not always need her d) vincent trusting that he will not succubm to the beast side and can be independent/not needy of cat's help in that respect - i think all these issues will be key for the rest of the season and trust will be a repeated theme I don't know what they have in store for the rest of season 3, but knowing how they, as a couple, have always tried to be honest to each other, and how that's what we love about their love story, and how important it is for her and how many time she's said it, and how hurt she'd been when he had lied to her (bathing suit story) I would think that if she agreed to marry him, that means she trusts him already, at least on the major threat that is his beast side. At the end of season2, she had said it so. That's why I didn't find this scene necessary...but you can tell me she had not said yes back then
Now, YES, she will probably (and he will probably) still doubts the other one's unconditional love. That's expected and normal, and that won't annoy me
yeah, no i dont think they will lie to each other... i just think they will have some trust issues and a lot of them will stem from lack of self awareness and self belief..u know how last season was who am i and this saeson is who are we? well i still think they need to figure out who they are individually while they are together we still have not fully figured out the who am i bit
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Post by pippin on Jun 17, 2015 16:12:39 GMT -5
(1) Cat's carSomeone mentioned that Cat was driving a Mustang but that has never been the case. In the Pilot after we see that Cat became a cop not a lawyer, she is racing a smokin' hot Dodge Charger through the streets of NYC. This is so appropriate for Cat. The Dodge Charger comes with a 700 horsepower option. By comparison, a normal car would have a couple hundred horsepower. Then in S2 she switched to a KIA, a decision that may have had more to do with product placement than suitability. The KIA logo was very prominent. Then toward the end of S2, as they are chasing around Manhattan looking for the dungeon, the smoking hot Charger is back. Happy to see it made it into S3. Nothing else would do. Sorry Bill, but you need to rewatch S2 again. Throughout the majority of S2 Cat is driving a blue Mustang not a KIA. She switched to the KIA towards the middle latter half of S1. In the opening sequence of 301, Cat is driving the same blue Mustang that she drove throughout most of S2. Right, starting from season 2, Cat has been in the blue Mustang except for when she is in a car accident, then she is conveniently in a borrowed car (Catch Me if You Can) or in someone else's (Ever After) Catherine was shown in at least 3 different cars in the first season. In the Pilot, she was driving a Dodge Charger, in the second and third episodes she was driving a KIA Sorrento, during the Alex arc, the Charger reappears and then the show must have gotten the KIA Optima deal along with their back 9 order cuz starting with Tough Love, Cat is shown in the Optima along with the prominent to blatant displays of the KIA logo, Optima dash, etc. Partners in Crime had that scene that might as well have been a car ad when Cat gets out of the car to talk to Tess. Even with the various Cat cars, the show still put her in Heather's clunker for the Bridesmaid Up accident.
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Post by batb4evr1 on Jun 17, 2015 16:51:26 GMT -5
I don't know what they have in store for the rest of season 3, but knowing how they, as a couple, have always tried to be honest to each other, and how that's what we love about their love story, and how important it is for her and how many time she's said it, and how hurt she'd been when he had lied to her (bathing suit story) I would think that if she agreed to marry him, that means she trusts him already, at least on the major threat that is his beast side. At the end of season2, she had said it so. That's why I didn't find this scene necessary...but you can tell me she had not said yes back then
Now, YES, she will probably (and he will probably) still doubts the other one's unconditional love. That's expected and normal, and that won't annoy me
yeah, no i dont think they will lie to each other... i just think they will have some trust issues and a lot of them will stem from lack of self awareness and self belief..u know how last season was who am i and this saeson is who are we? well i still think they need to figure out who they are individually while they are together we still have not fully figured out the who am i bit Hello anapi -season3baby :) and corinne my thoughts are that our characters are not typical, they are indeed extraordinary in context and thus will not respond like we mere mortals. I know a number of us did not like the repetition but I felt that in the context of the saga, it is going to be necessary to a point as the story and our characters develop and make their revelations toward their destiny. I personally am fine with this mode in playing out our story. However, this is simply my personal perspective. Then of course, we are hopeful for new viewership and this angle might be helpful to gain our desired result. Love you both so much and respect your views although I seem a bit divergent in my championing the show in some of my thoughts. I also believe that if our story continues to developed properly Rebecca and Alistair's story should fill in many gaps and flesh things out beautifully when it is finally revealed.
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Post by batb4evr1 on Jun 17, 2015 18:34:37 GMT -5
Our characters are founded on the unknown, most importantly to themselves. As Cat says, She feels that they are together for a bigger purpose and you know they are. Vincent does not want this life after he has lived through many tragedies and losses, most significantly his ability to trust and his loss of humanity being transformed into this vicious Beast. He has had to fight even if that meant repression while hiding from everyone including Cat for years so that it would not dominate him. He knows that he has not completely won the battle and he knows that she is paramount in his ability to triumph. He reasonably could wonder how long can they continue to love each other when he doesn't know what he could become if he mistakenly unleashes the Beast and cannot regain control without her and she fears not knowing if there will come a time when her "Gem" effect won't be strong enough to pull him back and she loses him forever. So for me repetition is the mother of retention. Their concerns for their future and their willingness to fight together to have one has to be reinforced to strengthen the bond until their destiny is revealed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 22:15:15 GMT -5
Sorry Bill, but you need to rewatch S2 again. Throughout the majority of S2 Cat is driving a blue Mustang not a KIA. She switched to the KIA towards the middle latter half of S1. In the opening sequence of 301, Cat is driving the same blue Mustang that she drove throughout most of S2. Right, starting from season 2, Cat has been in the blue Mustang except for when she is in a car accident, then she is conveniently in a borrowed car (Catch Me if You Can) or in someone else's (Ever After) Catherine was shown in at least 3 different cars in the first season. In the Pilot, she was driving a Dodge Charger, in the second and third episodes she was driving a KIA Sorrento, during the Alex arc, the Charger reappears and then the show must have gotten the KIA Optima deal along with their back 9 order cuz starting with Tough Love, Cat is shown in the Optima along with the prominent to blatant displays of the KIA logo, Optima dash, etc. Partners in Crime had that scene that might as well have been a car ad when Cat gets out of the car to talk to Tess. Even with the various Cat cars, the show still put her in Heather's clunker for the Bridesmaid Up accident. A woman with an eye for the cars. Fantastic! To elaborate a bit more....the blue Mustang is actually a GT model....a 5.0 liter V8 under the hood. (Probably about 400 horsepower.) Cat should really drive a Jaguar F-type, but sadly, an NYPD detective wouldn't make the coin necessary. :)
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Post by corinne on Jun 18, 2015 13:33:35 GMT -5
Have never been a fan of Alistair and Rebecca...but we'll see what this brings
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Post by Bill the beast on Jun 18, 2015 18:59:03 GMT -5
I am grateful to BeastieBoy and @dave and pippin for setting me straight on the cars. I know some of you may be snoozing over the issue but I'm obsessive about details and I think this item is almost an accessory for Cat. The sequence goes as follows as I see it: Cat has a fondness for blue cars. (1) Dark Blue VW Beetle 1.01 "Pilot" Outside the Salty Dawg saloon. (2) Dark Blue/Gray Charger 1.01 "Pilot" Outside Madison Sq. Garden (?) meeting Zeek [the Dodge Charger may never be seen again. Too bad] (3) Light Blue/Gray KIA Optima (I thought) through the rest of S1. Very clear in such episodes as "Anniversary" (1.20) where she and Vincent go to the cemetery to visit her Mom's grave. (4) Dark Blue Ford Mustang 2.01 "Who Am I?" and forward all the way to 3.01 I thought her ability to control a powerful American muscle car was right in line with 90lb Cat being able to chop down a big heavy guy. (So the KIA completely blows) Further, the name kind of foreshadowed the "Beast-tamer" theme. So "Charger" and "Mustang" work fine, and that's why those cars were named such. No need to go to "Jaguar" @dave although it would be fine with me. Somehow Cat would be able to pay for it on a NYC Police Detective's salary (which a little research shows to be about $80,000) Which makes me think of the issue of Cat's apartment. I've always been impressed with that apartment. It appears to be a 2 bedroom with a huge amount of space and light. Maybe someone still living in NYC could help me here but I'd guess that to rent at about $6000 a month ($72, 000 annually) Hard to see how she could afford it. Poetic license (to kill)
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