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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 17, 2014 21:31:47 GMT -5
i have to disagree about the part where u talk about self discovery. that can happen at any age, whether u are 14 or 65. It is an ongoing process. in the case of vincent and catherine they have had issues that they had not resolved individually in season 1 (vincent coming to terms with his beast side, catherine resolving issues stemming from her mom's murder). then other major things happened in both their lives as well which made the need for self discovery even more important. all i would like to see now is how this is explored and achieved by the time they get together in episode 16. i will need to be convinced that they have grown individually and hence can be stronger together, Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 0:05:18 GMT -5
Okay, @clena, you're freaking me out! You're liking my posts! I'm really worried right now. Do I need to call an ambulance?
Sorry, just kidding! I couldn't resist! Just saw this! Turns out we DO see eye to eye in some areas after all I call it as it is. If there's something I don't like about the direction or story, I say it. Just because I'm enjoying S2, doesn't mean I don't have some issues regarding some of the scenes/plot/characters But I'm really enjoying this season!! It has taken ME on a wild ride that S1, with all the romance wasn't able to do and I'm VERY hopeful that it will only keep getting better
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Post by Mycupoftea on Jan 18, 2014 0:18:04 GMT -5
Does anyone know what the symbol on the collar laying next to the beast skeleton means?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 0:33:03 GMT -5
Does anyone know what the symbol on the collar laying next to the beast skeleton means? That's what I've been trying to figure out all week! At first, I thought it was the same symbol as the one on Vanessa's necklace in S1 EP19 but as it turns out, it's not
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nosleep3
Rookie Cop
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky, when we walk in fields of gold.
Posts: 54
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Post by nosleep3 on Jan 18, 2014 7:34:46 GMT -5
By the way, this is bothering me, so I need to vent:
The FBI can't suspend Catherine. They can investigate her, they can ask for her gun if they have reasonable suspicion, but they don't have the authority to waltz into her precinct and demand her badge. It's up to HER department to decide if she's suspended pending the results of the FBI's investigation or if she should continue to work until the results are in. Which...way to not know your department regulations, GABE (by which I mean, WRITERS).
And the FBI's evidence was really flimsy. "We found a 9mm bullet at the scene with blood on it, and your department uses that same kind of pistol." I'm sorry, but until they actually run a ballistics analysis on her gun, they can't tell just by looking at a bullet that it came from a cop's gun. Civilians buy the same kind of guns that cops do, and gunmakers don't do something special to the barrel that will distinguish a cop's gun from any other shooter's gun. A bullet coming out of my Glock 9 will look the same as a bullet out of her Glock 9, and it'll look the same as a bullet fired from a Glock 9 in Germany. Finding a 9mm bullet might be enough to ask for her gun, but he'd also have to ask to see the firearms of every cop who showed up on the scene after her accident, and he couldn't rule out the possibility of the bullet coming from a civilian's firearm and being completely unrelated to Reynolds' arrest. Jumping down Catherine's throat like that is premature. I hope her union tears that Fed a new one.
If Catherine's going to be suspended for anything, it should be the stolen body in the trunk of that car, which wasn't signed out of the morgue by her or Gabe, but by JT Forbes.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jan 18, 2014 8:04:31 GMT -5
By the way, this is bothering me, so I need to vent: The FBI can't suspend Catherine. They can investigate her, they can ask for her gun if they have reasonable suspicion, but they don't have the authority to waltz into her precinct and demand her badge. It's up to HER department to decide if she's suspended pending the results of the FBI's investigation or if she should continue to work until the results are in. Which...way to not know your department regulations, GABE (by which I mean, WRITERS). And the FBI's evidence was really flimsy. "We found a 9mm bullet at the scene with blood on it, and your department uses that same kind of pistol." I'm sorry, but until they actually run a ballistics analysis on her gun, they can't tell just by looking at a bullet that it came from a cop's gun. Civilians buy the same kind of guns that cops do, and gunmakers don't do something special to the barrel that will distinguish a cop's gun from any other shooter's gun. A bullet coming out of my Glock 9 will look the same as a bullet out of her Glock 9, and it'll look the same as a bullet fired from a Glock 9 in Germany. Finding a 9mm bullet might be enough to ask for her gun, but he'd also have to ask to see the firearms of every cop who showed up on the scene after her accident, and he couldn't rule out the possibility of the bullet coming from a civilian's firearm and being completely unrelated to Reynolds' arrest. Jumping down Catherine's throat like that is premature. I hope her union tears that Fed a new one. If Catherine's going to be suspended for anything, it should be the stolen body in the trunk of that car, which wasn't signed out of the morgue by her or Gabe, but by JT Forbes.[/quote lol i laugh cause what u say is very true This is BATB for u - i have accepted not to pay attention to these aspects cause there are so many such flaws in every single episode
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Post by yfaruqi on Jan 18, 2014 8:53:47 GMT -5
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that using amnesia to reset a show is shoddy storytelling. It's a cheap trick that's been done to death for the last fifty or sixty years of broadcast television. The amnesia contrivance has ruined far better programs than this one, and it's only happening to this show because apparently the producer, in his quest to remake this show into a cross between a bunch of other series that had good ratings and will be relatable to teen viewers, has never heard of the phrase "jumping the shark" before or analyzed where other programs went horribly wrong.
Now, the writers could get their crap together and pull off Vincent's new self-discovery in a believable way, and I actually hope they do...but I'm finding it hard to believe they can handle it. Even if they were Ray-Bradbury-level geniuses, they're taking direction from a man who thinks amnesia and character assassination are novel ideas that will give him a five-year show.
Using amnesia by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The bourne identity comes to mind (not the new movie but the old one ) where it was done really well. It wasn't a love story but there were some elements in it that were really good where you find some evidence which suggests that you weren't a good person and that goes against with how you feel and the people that know you now. I realize that's vague but I can't get into the story too much here. My point is that here amnesia was just a tool to allow the writers to reset season 1 and start from scratch. Vincent 2.0 didn't remember anything and than he had flashes so he remembers Cat but does he remember every single thing or he just thinks of Cat as someone he had some history with. What happened in season 1 was so much more than that..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 9:43:20 GMT -5
By the way, this is bothering me, so I need to vent: The FBI can't suspend Catherine. They can investigate her, they can ask for her gun if they have reasonable suspicion, but they don't have the authority to waltz into her precinct and demand her badge. It's up to HER department to decide if she's suspended pending the results of the FBI's investigation or if she should continue to work until the results are in. Which...way to not know your department regulations, GABE (by which I mean, WRITERS). And the FBI's evidence was really flimsy. "We found a 9mm bullet at the scene with blood on it, and your department uses that same kind of pistol." I'm sorry, but until they actually run a ballistics analysis on her gun, they can't tell just by looking at a bullet that it came from a cop's gun. Civilians buy the same kind of guns that cops do, and gunmakers don't do something special to the barrel that will distinguish a cop's gun from any other shooter's gun. A bullet coming out of my Glock 9 will look the same as a bullet out of her Glock 9, and it'll look the same as a bullet fired from a Glock 9 in Germany. Finding a 9mm bullet might be enough to ask for her gun, but he'd also have to ask to see the firearms of every cop who showed up on the scene after her accident, and he couldn't rule out the possibility of the bullet coming from a civilian's firearm and being completely unrelated to Reynolds' arrest. Jumping down Catherine's throat like that is premature. I hope her union tears that Fed a new one. If Catherine's going to be suspended for anything, it should be the stolen body in the trunk of that car, which wasn't signed out of the morgue by her or Gabe, but by JT Forbes. That's BatB for you, my friend. I still think a little research and going back on your own story to make sure you won't slip doesn't kill, but I think that's just me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 10:38:04 GMT -5
By the way, this is bothering me, so I need to vent: The FBI can't suspend Catherine. They can investigate her, they can ask for her gun if they have reasonable suspicion, but they don't have the authority to waltz into her precinct and demand her badge. It's up to HER department to decide if she's suspended pending the results of the FBI's investigation or if she should continue to work until the results are in. Which...way to not know your department regulations, GABE (by which I mean, WRITERS). And the FBI's evidence was really flimsy. "We found a 9mm bullet at the scene with blood on it, and your department uses that same kind of pistol." I'm sorry, but until they actually run a ballistics analysis on her gun, they can't tell just by looking at a bullet that it came from a cop's gun. Civilians buy the same kind of guns that cops do, and gunmakers don't do something special to the barrel that will distinguish a cop's gun from any other shooter's gun. A bullet coming out of my Glock 9 will look the same as a bullet out of her Glock 9, and it'll look the same as a bullet fired from a Glock 9 in Germany. Finding a 9mm bullet might be enough to ask for her gun, but he'd also have to ask to see the firearms of every cop who showed up on the scene after her accident, and he couldn't rule out the possibility of the bullet coming from a civilian's firearm and being completely unrelated to Reynolds' arrest. Jumping down Catherine's throat like that is premature. I hope her union tears that Fed a new one. If Catherine's going to be suspended for anything, it should be the stolen body in the trunk of that car, which wasn't signed out of the morgue by her or Gabe, but by JT Forbes. That's BatB for you, my friend. I still think a little research and going back on your own story to make sure you won't slip doesn't kill, but I think that's just me.I have no idea as to who, specifically, holds that script editing position, but I have often felt, in moments of absolute frustration, that their marching papers should be issued. Many here, both of you included, would do a much better job; please do apply if the post is ever vacated. A girl can dream!
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nosleep3
Rookie Cop
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky, when we walk in fields of gold.
Posts: 54
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Post by nosleep3 on Jan 18, 2014 10:40:48 GMT -5
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that using amnesia to reset a show is shoddy storytelling. It's a cheap trick that's been done to death for the last fifty or sixty years of broadcast television. The amnesia contrivance has ruined far better programs than this one, and it's only happening to this show because apparently the producer, in his quest to remake this show into a cross between a bunch of other series that had good ratings and will be relatable to teen viewers, has never heard of the phrase "jumping the shark" before or analyzed where other programs went horribly wrong.
Now, the writers could get their crap together and pull off Vincent's new self-discovery in a believable way, and I actually hope they do...but I'm finding it hard to believe they can handle it. Even if they were Ray-Bradbury-level geniuses, they're taking direction from a man who thinks amnesia and character assassination are novel ideas that will give him a five-year show.
Using amnesia by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The bourne identity comes to mind (not the new movie but the old one ) where it was done really well. It wasn't a love story but there were some elements in it that were really good where you find some evidence which suggests that you weren't a good person and that goes against with how you feel and the people that know you now. I realize that's vague but I can't get into the story too much here. My point is that here amnesia was just a tool to allow the writers to reset season 1 and start from scratch. Vincent 2.0 didn't remember anything and than he had flashes so he remembers Cat but does he remember every single thing or he just thinks of Cat as someone he had some history with. What happened in season 1 was so much more than that.. I hear what you're saying, but Bourne Identity is the wrong comparison to make. That is a film (and a book) about a man who, from the beginning, doesn't know who he is and is trying to figure out if he's a good guy. The audience has no more conception of who Jason Bourne is than he does. We learn who he is and what he can do at the same time he learns it. That's not the same thing as a hard reset of a group of characters the audience already knew and had an affection for.
Beauty and the Beast didn't need to be reset, it needed complex and satisfying storytelling. So while I can see the case for amnesia being an effective tool when used properly, in the case of BATB, it's just a worn out trope that audiences have seen too many times.
I'll even go further and say the amnesia is causing more story and character problems than it fixes. In season 1 we had Catherine and Vincent slowly falling in love as they worked through cases and tried to fend off Muirfield. This season Cat has been pushy and just INSISTING that Vincent love her and change into a person she can love. That doesn't sound like a love story, it sounds like that episode of The Simpsons when Marge insisted to Lisa that some women think you can't change a man, but those women are quitters.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 18, 2014 10:46:46 GMT -5
Using amnesia by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The bourne identity comes to mind (not the new movie but the old one ) where it was done really well. It wasn't a love story but there were some elements in it that were really good where you find some evidence which suggests that you weren't a good person and that goes against with how you feel and the people that know you now. I realize that's vague but I can't get into the story too much here. My point is that here amnesia was just a tool to allow the writers to reset season 1 and start from scratch. Vincent 2.0 didn't remember anything and than he had flashes so he remembers Cat but does he remember every single thing or he just thinks of Cat as someone he had some history with. What happened in season 1 was so much more than that.. I hear what you're saying, but Bourne Identity is the wrong comparison to make. That is a film (and a book) about a man who, from the beginning, doesn't know who he is and is trying to figure out if he's a good guy. The audience has no more conception of who Jason Bourne is than he does. We learn who he is and what he can do at the same time he learns it. That's not the same thing as a hard reset of a group of characters the audience already knew and had an affection for.
Beauty and the Beast didn't need to be reset, it needed complex and satisfying storytelling. So while I can see the case for amnesia being an effective tool when used properly, in the case of BATB, it's just a worn out trope that audiences have seen too many times.
I'll even go further and say the amnesia is causing more story and character problems than it fixes. In season 1 we had Catherine and Vincent slowly falling in love as they worked through cases and tried to fend off Muirfield. This season Cat has been pushy and just INSISTING that Vincent love her and change into a person she can love. That doesn't sound like a love story, it sounds like that episode of The Simpsons when Marge insisted to Lisa that some women think you can't change a man, but those women are quitters.
Who are you? Are you my long lost twin? It's like you're in my head and writing everything I'm thinking! It's scary!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 12:01:12 GMT -5
That's BatB for you, my friend. I still think a little research and going back on your own story to make sure you won't slip doesn't kill, but I think that's just me. I have no idea as to who, specifically, holds that script editing position, but I have often felt, in moments of absolute frustration, that their marching papers should be issued. Many here, both of you included, would do a much better job; please do apply if the post is ever vacated. A girl can dream! I think they gave up worrying about those kinds of issues early on in Season 1. They expect the audience to just roll with these inconsistencies/errors....if they even notice them.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jan 18, 2014 13:55:44 GMT -5
what distinguishes this show from other shows IMO is the emotions it evokes and the magic it creates regardless of all the flaws that are very apparent and we have all identified. it would be great if they did a great job on all fronts (which they don't) but I have not watched a show before that makes me feel like that and that is why I think fans are so passionate about this show.
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Post by crazyforbatb_has season 3 on Jan 18, 2014 14:07:49 GMT -5
I agree wih you anapi I too have never been so vested in a tv show before. It engages my emotions like no other show and the thoughtbod it ending depresses me something fierce. I don't get botheres by the flaws. All shows have them. Talking about FBI in an earlier post - well in the show The Mentalist, the FBI just shuts down the whole police unit completely and irrevocably disbanding them. Fans don't question it. But you are right, I think it is the passion that we have for our show and the feeling of being part of a beastie family and the interactions with cast and crew (making us feel like we are part of the BatB story and its unfolding) that makes us analyse and question. Regardless, I think fans really care about the show and wouldn't be without it flaws and all
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jan 18, 2014 14:41:48 GMT -5
I agree wih you anapi I too have never been so vested in a tv show before. It engages my emotions like no other show and the thoughtbod it ending depresses me something fierce. I don't get botheres by the flaws. All shows have them. Talking about FBI in an earlier post - well in the show The Mentalist, the FBI just shuts down the whole police unit completely and irrevocably disbanding them. Fans don't question it. But you are right, I think it is the passion that we have for our show and the feeling of being part of a beastie family and the interactions with cast and crew (making us feel like we are part of the BatB story and its unfolding) that makes us analyse and question. Regardless, I think fans really care about the show and wouldn't be without it flaws and all yes u are right. i recently watched (well currently in the last few episodes) breaking bad which i think is a superb show, really well crafted, very convincing character development and portrayal and highly acclaimed by critics, brilliant performances, interesting topic, powerful scenes. good action/drama etc etc, all great. and i do really enjoy watching it. and i honestly cannot really find any flaws in it, or really minor ones. will i go back and re-watch it ever again? Nope, I will not- even though I think it is great and flawless how many times have i rewatched BATB episodes and will do so in the future? well, many times and it never gets boring
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