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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 11:01:40 GMT -5
You know what the funny/disappointing thing is.......I think there's more thoughtful analysis/insight/discussion of the BATB characters from the members on this forum than there is in the writers room in Los Angeles.
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nosleep3
Rookie Cop
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky, when we walk in fields of gold.
Posts: 54
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Post by nosleep3 on Jan 17, 2014 12:01:43 GMT -5
i have to disagree about the part where u talk about self discovery. that can happen at any age, whether u are 14 or 65. It is an ongoing process. in the case of vincent and catherine they have had issues that they had not resolved individually in season 1 (vincent coming to terms with his beast side, catherine resolving issues stemming from her mom's murder). then other major things happened in both their lives as well which made the need for self discovery even more important. all i would like to see now is how this is explored and achieved by the time they get together in episode 16. i will need to be convinced that they have grown individually and hence can be stronger together, Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
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Post by Laura on Jan 17, 2014 12:07:56 GMT -5
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jan 17, 2014 12:09:50 GMT -5
i have to disagree about the part where u talk about self discovery. that can happen at any age, whether u are 14 or 65. It is an ongoing process. in the case of vincent and catherine they have had issues that they had not resolved individually in season 1 (vincent coming to terms with his beast side, catherine resolving issues stemming from her mom's murder). then other major things happened in both their lives as well which made the need for self discovery even more important. all i would like to see now is how this is explored and achieved by the time they get together in episode 16. i will need to be convinced that they have grown individually and hence can be stronger together, Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
ok i undestand your point now, thanks
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Post by bookworm on Jan 17, 2014 12:28:45 GMT -5
i have to disagree about the part where u talk about self discovery. that can happen at any age, whether u are 14 or 65. It is an ongoing process. in the case of vincent and catherine they have had issues that they had not resolved individually in season 1 (vincent coming to terms with his beast side, catherine resolving issues stemming from her mom's murder). then other major things happened in both their lives as well which made the need for self discovery even more important. all i would like to see now is how this is explored and achieved by the time they get together in episode 16. i will need to be convinced that they have grown individually and hence can be stronger together, Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
I get your point but I have to say that when you say the self discovery is artificial and forced: well yes, what else would it be? V lost his memory, was brainwashed..., was trained to behave as a soldier, shut his feelings... only focus on the missions. There was this conversation between V and C in 209 when Cat tries to get him to go to the hospital. V:"They'll run my prints and they'll find out I'm Vincent Keller. " C: "So?" V: " So I don't even know who that is anymore....." He doesn't know who he is. He has to find himself an identity, find out who he is. At the moment he feels so lost! He needs to find out, even it's forced or artificial.
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Post by chilly20 on Jan 17, 2014 12:43:15 GMT -5
i have to disagree about the part where u talk about self discovery. that can happen at any age, whether u are 14 or 65. It is an ongoing process. in the case of vincent and catherine they have had issues that they had not resolved individually in season 1 (vincent coming to terms with his beast side, catherine resolving issues stemming from her mom's murder). then other major things happened in both their lives as well which made the need for self discovery even more important. all i would like to see now is how this is explored and achieved by the time they get together in episode 16. i will need to be convinced that they have grown individually and hence can be stronger together, Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
I have to disagree with some of your points on Catherine. I don't think she was a fully formed confident individual capable of forming lasting relationships. She had issues. Remember she couldn't hold a relationship for long. She was always dating the bad boys. That to me indicates a flawed character. She didn't trust herself in a normal relationship because she didn't believe she had the ability to stay the distance. Even Vincent pointed this out to her.
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Post by yfaruqi on Jan 17, 2014 12:50:15 GMT -5
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
Very well said. For me the relation-ship between Vincent and Catherine was forged on the basis of the kind of people they were and the hardships they had to face in their lives. That's what brought them close from the very beginning even when Vincent 1.0 would just stay in the shadows (or rooftops) to watch out for her. He may have saved a lot of people but he didn't look out for anyone other than Cat. He was the kind of person who would never knowingly put Cat's life in danger. Yes Cat sacrificed a lot and did a lot to protect him but it was mutual and as such not an issue. Vincent 2.0 is obviously a different case altogether as he only cares about what he wants to do and doesn't really care if Cat or anyone else would get hurt along the way. Amnesia is one thing but what happened to Vincent 1.0 wasn't just memory loss, he was brainwashed and re-programmed (by the season 2 writers). Even if someone loses their memory it doesn't necessarily change who they are but that's not the case here. Apparently Vincent 2.0 is just one of the bad boys Cat has dated in her life which were a bad influence on her and she needs to now find a real good guy such as Gabe who has never hurt a fly in his life and is gentle and kind and a great catch. Essentially that's the message which comes across this season and it's hard to fight against it because Vincent 2.0 is just not Vincent anymore...
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Post by yfaruqi on Jan 17, 2014 13:10:28 GMT -5
I have to disagree with some of your points on Catherine. I don't think she was a fully formed confident individual capable of forming lasting relationships. She had issues. Remember she couldn't hold a relationship for long. She was always dating the bad boys. That to me indicates a flawed character. She didn't trust herself in a normal relationship because she didn't believe she had the ability to stay the distance. Even Vincent pointed this out to her. You are right about that, Cat had issues and she had plenty of time to discover herself after her mother was killed and before she met Vincent. She obviously became a cop, rose up the ranks to become a detective so in terms of career she was well set. After the traumatic incident she did have a hard time with relation-ships always picking the bad boys and as we were told subconsciously because she was afraid to be close to anyone (of course somehow in season 2 we are told that she dated bad guys even when her mom was alive which doesn't equate with season 1 at least for me). So she had lousy taste in men until she came across Vincent 1.0 who was someone she could relate with and someone who was a good decent man (which none of her other bfs were). He not only saved her but he was always there for her and made her feel loved. Of course he had a lot of issues in he couldn't take her out they couldn't even communicate easily at first but they overcome all that and forged their bond and eventually came close to building a life for themselves. That all changed in one instant when Cat's father took Vincent away. My point is that Cat had a life and she had discovered herself as a detective who helps people and as a woman who has a loving decent man in her life that she wanted to be with. She was all set until her real father took it away from her and destroyed it. Now in season 2 what she is learning is that Vincent is gone and she can't put a hold on her life for one person no matter how important he was to her but she needs to forget about him and move on and find someone like Gabe. After watching season 1 I'm not even sure if I can do that let alone the character of Cat.
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nosleep3
Rookie Cop
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky, when we walk in fields of gold.
Posts: 54
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Post by nosleep3 on Jan 17, 2014 13:28:27 GMT -5
Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
I get your point but I have to say that when you say the self discovery is artificial and forced: well yes, what else would it be? V lost his memory, was brainwashed..., was trained to behave as a soldier, shut his feelings... only focus on the missions. There was this conversation between V and C in 209 when Cat tries to get him to go to the hospital. V:"They'll run my prints and they'll find out I'm Vincent Keller. " C: "So?" V: " So I don't even know who that is anymore....." He doesn't know who he is. He has to find himself an identity, find out who he is. At the moment he feels so lost! He needs to find out, even it's forced or artificial.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that using amnesia to reset a show is shoddy storytelling. It's a cheap trick that's been done to death for the last fifty or sixty years of broadcast television. The amnesia contrivance has ruined far better programs than this one, and it's only happening to this show because apparently the producer, in his quest to remake this show into a cross between a bunch of other series that had good ratings and will be relatable to teen viewers, has never heard of the phrase "jumping the shark" before or analyzed where other programs went horribly wrong.
Now, the writers could get their crap together and pull off Vincent's new self-discovery in a believable way, and I actually hope they do...but I'm finding it hard to believe they can handle it. Even if they were Ray-Bradbury-level geniuses, they're taking direction from a man who thinks amnesia and character assassination are novel ideas that will give him a five-year show.
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nosleep3
Rookie Cop
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky, when we walk in fields of gold.
Posts: 54
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Post by nosleep3 on Jan 17, 2014 13:46:49 GMT -5
Okay, that's valid.
In season 1, Vincent's self-discovery was less about who he was and more about controlling his own body; he already had a personality and values and goals. Season 2 gave him control over his body but eliminated his personality, so now he literally has to find a new one.
In Catherine's case, in the first season she also had her own personality, values, goals, and flaws. She set her own priorities, she didn't force her values onto Vincent, and she actively chose to make him part of her life. At this point in season 2, she's acting as though Vincent hijacked her life against her will and forced her to become his babysitter. The producer is openly telling the audience that Cat needs to figure out who she is without Vincent, which I suppose she does, but only because the producer and writers generated a personality backslide for her. Cat isn't grieving for her dead adoptive father, or asking herself why she was okay with Vincent killing Li Zhao but not Reynolds, or contemplating how Gabe went from the guy who didn't care if his own girlfriend died to the guy who will stop at nothing to get on her good side; instead, Cat's "discovering" who she is without a man, something she had no problem with before.
So what I'm saying isn't that self-discovery can't happen at any age; I'm saying that the self-discovery we're seeing right now comes across as artificial. These were already fully formed people in season 1, and I'm protesting the way that has been taken from them to make way for all the middle school nonsense I've seen this season.
I have to disagree with some of your points on Catherine. I don't think she was a fully formed confident individual capable of forming lasting relationships. She had issues. Remember she couldn't hold a relationship for long. She was always dating the bad boys. That to me indicates a flawed character. She didn't trust herself in a normal relationship because she didn't believe she had the ability to stay the distance. Even Vincent pointed this out to her. "Fully formed" does not mean the same thing as flawless. Flaws are part of any natural form. And as my happily single friends will tell you, not having a steady boyfriend does not make someone less of a fully formed person.
The strange thing to me is that Cat went from being a career woman who hadn't found a stable relationship but lived a full life nonetheless, to a career woman who had a stable relationship but was facing a crazy set of circumstances, to the new Catherine who sees every single thing in terms of what it means for her up-and-down relationship and doesn't remember who she is without a man. That's such a radical shift that it affects my suspension of disbelief.
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Post by Suzieq ❤️ Beastie on Jan 17, 2014 14:13:25 GMT -5
Yeah it looks like it. I only have a small screen on my laptop so I guess those who have a flat screen are lucky to see every detail clearly! Or own a projector and look at JR's body which must look huge on that! ..... You know who you are!!! I have no idea what you are talking about! Now this smiley goes with the pic. BTW that is definitely a tear! Even more heartbreaking… Whoa.........Nelly!! That's BIG! Niiice!!
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Post by beastiegirl.happy.puppy on Jan 17, 2014 16:32:13 GMT -5
You know what the funny/disappointing thing is.......I think there's more thoughtful analysis/insight/discussion of the BATB characters from the members on this forum than there is in the writers room in Los Angeles. As I see it, we don't know what is or isn't discussed in the writer's room. And, since we don't know how this will play out, we just have to wait & see. As Sherri said in the start of S02, it's like a rollercoaster ride. So, I'm hanging on & enjoying the ride!!
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Post by Jubilant Judi on Jan 17, 2014 16:37:25 GMT -5
You know what the funny/disappointing thing is.......I think there's more thoughtful analysis/insight/discussion of the BATB characters from the members on this forum than there is in the writers room in Los Angeles. As I see it, we don't know what is or isn't discussed in the writer's room. And, since we don't know how this will play out, we just have to wait & see. As Sherri said in the start of S02, it's like a rollercoaster ride. So, I'm hanging on & enjoying the ride!!
I love rollercoasters - my favorite ride
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 17:27:32 GMT -5
As I see it, we don't know what is or isn't discussed in the writer's room. And, since we don't know how this will play out, we just have to wait & see. As Sherri said in the start of S02, it's like a rollercoaster ride. So, I'm hanging on & enjoying the ride!!
I love rollercoasters - my favorite ride I am in until the ride comes to a full stop; feeling the whole gamut of emotions...joy and laughter, sadness and tears, annoyance, frustration, disappointment, relief, happiness, anticipation, hope, etc., etc., etc....and still loving BatB.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 17, 2014 21:27:46 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that JT was there for Vincent "only" because he felt responsible instead of because of their friendship. Those things aren't mutually exclusive--if I did something that caused my best friend harm, I would feel guilty, but I would also care about that person because we've been friends for twenty-five years. After all, the reason JT gave Vincent's name for the program in the first place was because he thought it would give his best friend an edge that would keep him alive. (And let's also remember that Vincent consented to it because the program coordinator lied to him, not because JT personally convinced him Project Muirfield was a good idea.) I agree with this. JT doesn't strike me as one with a duplicitous bone in his body. His motives were pure when he gave VK's name to Muirfield and as he said, he was hoping to give his best friend an edge to keep him safe. I can't argue with that or think badly of him for wanting to protect V. You said a mouthful here. I'm tired of thirtysomething being the new sixteen. It is not a bad thing to be an adult or to cater to an adult audience. I watched TVD until I almost gagged to death, so if I don't need or want a wannabe thank you very much. And this is why I hated the introduction of Catherine's long lost father. It was too much unnecessary drama in the life of an adult woman with a successful career, a great apartment and a fantastic lover. I don't dislike the actor playing Gabe at all, but I didn't like Gabe last year and saw no reason for him to be resurrected as a "good guy." Sorry, I don't get "good guy" vibes from Gabe. He still seems to be operating in his own self-interest first. His face falls every time Catherine shows her concern for or interest in Vincent. I want to slap him upset his greasy head and scream, "What did you expect?" No matter what she says or how hard she fights against her feelings, Vincent is still in her heart and she can't just ignore him. He is trying to make a move on Catherine and his every interaction with her couldn't make it more clear. I hate it.
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