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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 29, 2016 15:57:00 GMT -5
Vincent should totally at least beat those DHS guys. I don't believe in torturing someone for information. It's just wrong. They say they know about super solider programs than they should know that Vincent is not the bad guy here. But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like Vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist. Well, Pippin, when you put it like that.... Actually, I don't think Zach was a bad guy. He wasn't when Vincent first knew him but I think that he was a tool for the writers to show what Vincent could have turned into if he had allowed himself to be eaten up with anger and revenge and hadn't had someone to help him keep his humanity (obviously JT, and later, Cat). Zach just spent too much time brooding on his own and became unhinged, looking for someone to blame for his situation. He killed the woman he loved then blamed Vincent for stealing her from him and ruining his life, because Muirfield were gone so he had no other outlet for his hatred.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 29, 2016 8:17:16 GMT -5
Though I am glad we got season 4 sometime it feels like may be if season 3 was the last season than atleast cat and Vincent would be happy. joyabeast, I agree with everything you say. Vincent and Cat were happy at the end of Season 3 and I seem to recollect that the last song was all about this being their year and that it took a long time to come. Well, the writers did not keep their promise and poor VinCat have had a truly terrible time since their honeymoon. But, like you, I have really enjoyed Season 4 which has definitely been the most romantic since Season 1 (and maybe the end of Season 2). I would not have wanted to miss out on the two cute shower scenes, the kisses and hugs in desperate circumstances and the bed-scene at the end of Episode 8, the Vincent dream sequence and even Heather sticking bananas up tail-pipes. We have two more episodes left so potentially, we have the two most romantic BATB episodes EVER. Here's hoping. Let's wait to see what the writers have come up with. Austin Basis hinted that Beasties would like the ending so I'm going with that and remaining positive that neither of us will be left regretting season 4 happened.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 29, 2016 8:02:06 GMT -5
I'm guessing Kyle might find out the secret judging from the pic? Or at least I really hope so...it wouldn't feel right for there to be that plot hole assuming most likely vincat faked their deaths and Kyle thought they really were dead and Heather knew they weren't. I wonder what they were running from? But seriously this ending doesn't feel right to me not 100 percent..it is an ending but not fully satisfying. Well, I'll wait to seeing the episode... But it doesn't seem a happily ever after...maybe in terms of the vincat relationship, I guess in accepting this is how it has to be...But it bugs me lol they talk about no more beast stuff, normal lives all the time...I guess only Tess, JT, Heather and Kyle only get that. You can only assume as a viewer vincat got away, but realistically life on the run takes it toll..It's not ideal. But then comes, how do they pull off hiring a carriage if they are on the run? I guess another ending option is vincat actually are dead and they come up with some imaginary sequence like heaven :/ ? In which case, the writers should go all out, I'm talking like the masquerade episode, where they have totally their happy ending, not just with the carriage with absolutely no chatter about normal lives...Just being in love with eachother! But I just thought what if the writers tried to trick us...well I'm guessing those who don't read the spoilers...the writers may set up the episode in a way where the audience think they are dead; we won't hear their plans that they will fake it. I wonder how effective that would be as the audience already know that they tried to run away and get new identities. I think maybe people will already suss they are heading in that direction. But if the writers took that step further, made us believe they actually were dead, put up a heaven, dream sequence to make it more convincing as well as Heather, Tess and JTs acting like they really have gone...THEN somehow make it they were in a coma/it turned out to be an imaginary scene and they were brought back to life...THAT could be interesting! But I'm guessing it would lead to them still on the run or I can't think of another way out...even if Vincent saved a lot of lives in the community and DHS think he's not that bad, worth saving; he still got to run away from the beast and even after taking care of that, there's always going to be someone, the more his secret is exposed so... Wow, I'm like writing an essay on this whole thing evanarose , that is truly a romanticized Wuthering Heights approach but I personally would not like the heaven scenario at all. If the writers have determined that Vincent and Cat will fake their deaths to end the all out pursuit and take the heat after Heather, Tess and JT, I get why they would script that Cat and Vincent would want to do that to try to live some kind of life somewhere where undercover and give they friends and family back their lives after all they have been through. But Heather being with Kyle after he turned Cat and Vincent in to DHS better be scripted phenomenally to explain that!!! The writers let time run out for the scripting the end as it should have been so that characters may have been written to reflect that they may be out of options and feel there is no other way out and they fake their deaths but don't like it - I don't want BATB to end and it certainly was not as it should have been written! Wow, I love both your posts. I agree with evanarose that I would personally not really want VinCat to be actually dead. Faking their deaths and running off into the sunset to start a new life together is a lot more romantic. It's not the ending I would have wanted for them, but realistically, it was never going to happen that Cat would go back to being a cop and Vincent a doctor in New York, that they would have 2 kids and Vincent would never have to beast out again. Their lives are NEVER going to be NORMAL, so they have to find their own kind of normal, where Cat can continue to fight crime and Vincent, save people. That's what they do. I don't know if anyone saw the end of White Collar. If anyone's catching up with it now, DON'T read the next paragraph because this will be a SPOILER!! In White collar, Neal Caffrey was in a situation like this. He had seriously ticked off some bad guys and was planning to run with his friend Mozzie, when he realised that the bad guys would hurt the ones he loved, his FBI partner and mentor Peter and his wife and child. So he faked his death. The audience did not know it was fake as Neal was lying on a slab in the morgue and Peter and Mozzie were crying over his body in a truly heartbreaking scene. I myself was crying and saying 'No, Neal can't be dead'. Then six months later, Neal left Peter and Mozzie a clue and they followed it to a lock-up that contained all they needed to work out that Neal was alive, how he'd faked his death and where he had gone. There was no indication that they ever saw each other again. That was left to the audience to ponder, but just knowing that Neal was alive somewhere, being Neal and doing what Neal does, left Mozzie and Peter, and the audience, content. I have a feeling that JT, Tess and Heather will go to the funeral(s) truly believing that Vincent and Catherine are dead but that when they get back to the their apartment, VinCat have left them a sign, a Paris postcard on the fridge saying 'we wish you were here' post-dated to the next day, a note telling them to go to the roof, something that lets them know they are OK. It will be left to the viewer to decide if they ever saw each other again. Faking their deaths successfully will mean that they are NOT on the run. If you are dead, no-one will be looking for you, so once they get away, there is a good chance that they can be happy, and not be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives. With regard to Kyle, I have not been a fan of his since day one but I was similarly not always a fan of Heather. She has stepped up to the plate since she found out the truth about Vincent and Kyle will too. He will have to seriously atone for his behaviour to get back into Heather's good books, but I think that rather than hate him for what he has done, we need perhaps to understand that he really does have deep feelings for Heather and acted, he thought, to keep her safe. Let me play devil's advocate here and say that he has no reason to be loyal to or help Vincent. Vincent has been quite unfriendly towards him and he must have believed that Vincent was a criminal, dragging Heather and Cat down. Similar to how Heather viewed Vincent, until she was let into the circle of trust. If Heather HAD been honest with Kyle and trusted him with the truth, he MAY have understood and been helpful to them, rather than getting in the way. Kyle represents Heather's future and if VinCat are to disappear, she will need someone to fill the void. Heather must love Kyle or she would not have risked Vincent's exposure to be with him, or agreed to move in with him. Kyle will, I believe, after clearing the air with Heather, use his position as a DHS informer, to mislead and misdirect DHS's efforts to re-capture Vincent and Cat, leaving them free to stop the new beast or do whatever else they need to do before the threat is neutralised. Kyle may risk his life, save Heather's life, risk arrest or act in some other way to help VinCat. He can go from villain to hero in the last two episodes.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 26, 2016 13:48:39 GMT -5
If they know about the super soldier program, I wonder what information they want from Vincent. Why are they torturing him? He is suffering and in pain, but is not beasting out. It shows how far he has come and how much control he has over his beast side. I will ONLY be able to watch this episode from behind a cushion and even then, ONLY because the promo photos show that he gets away and is with Cat again. I am looking forward to the moment alluded to by Gillian Horvath, her favourite single frame image of the whole show.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 26, 2016 7:40:16 GMT -5
Heartbreaking, really. If Vincent just killed everyone in the room he'd be justified. It's really hard to watch. Thelma & Louise moment coming up I feel. Hopefully, it's fake and they live to start a new life elsewhere.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:37:27 GMT -5
I was thinking about your post Pippin and had a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I didn't actually mind the idea of VinCat trying to run away as, although it was flirted with in Season 1, when they wanted to run off to Denver from Muirfield after Vincent was supposedly on the way to being 'cured' by Gabe's magic pill, they didn't actually do it for reasons we all know about. Again, in Season 2, Vincent was reluctant then ready to take Cat to Canada and Cat was ready then reluctant so again, it didn't happen. Vincent decided to stay and fight and persuaded Cat, and they still had the promise of an exoneration. But this time, there really seems to be no other option. No exoneration is on the table, no matter what they do and how many lives they save by bringing down this new beast. Vincent will be made an example of, for killing Hill, even though Hill was ultimately a coward who broke the law himself by hiring hit-men to kill Vincent, Cat, Tess and JT. One glimmer of light on the horizon though. Agent Dillon does now accept that Vincent is not a bad guy, but says that the powers that be do not see things the same way. On the subject of the fake IDs, they may not still have them. Cat got them when she was an NYPD Dectective. She is not in a position to get more as she has lost both her NYPD and DHS badges. Also, they were only going to Denver, not leaving the country, so this time they needed passports, not IDs. Last time, they were only running from Muirfield, not the law. This time, they would be running from every law enforcement body in the US. One other question. Why is Vincent the reason Cat's father (Thomas Chandler) was killed? I thought this was one of the many unanswered BATB questions. Thomas was on his way to see Cat and had a tablet on him which, when brought back to life, showed a picture of Bob Reynolds. I thought at the end of Season 1 that Bob Reynolds had Thomas Chandler killed to stop him telling Cat who her real father was. After all, he murdered Tyler in cold blood and left Gabe for dead so I wouldn't have put it past him. However, I changed my mind when Bob finally spoke to Cat as her father, as I realised that, although Bob was a bad man, he would not have killed Thomas. Then I just assumed Muirfield killed him for some reason we would find out in Season 2. But we never did. On the Heather front, when Cat was going to leave for Canada with Vincent, Heather was working in Miami, so essentially, she had already left Cat. Also, leaving Heather this time around wouldn't have to be the end. Cat and Vincent might not be able to come back but that would not stop Heather going to see them once they were settled somewhere. Oh, I don't think VinCat leaving is bad in theory, and I thought the scene between Heather and Cat was nice cuz KK and Nicole did a good job and we know the show is ending, but it's another been there done that plus the fact VinCat didn't seem overly upset by the prospect of leaving the previous times. Whenever VinCat tried to leave before, it should also have meant no contact with the ones they left behind. If you are on the run or in hiding you can't be skyping, phoning, texting your loved ones and they can't be visiting you, which wasn't the case when Heather moved to Miami but was the case in S1, S2 and 411. I think one of the problems with S1 was having Muirfield after them from the get go. It's one thing to choose to put yourself in danger chasing bad guys, but it's another to endanger the lives of your friends and family cuz of your relationship. But since the show wasn't set up to be Highway to Heaven-like, I think it would have been better if they delayed Muirfield's involvement. In BITNB, I thought the only reason Cat didn't leave with V was because the police and their helicopter were right there and she was afraid she would slow him down and he would get caught. But they could have made V come back because he sensed Cat was in danger rather than his, "I don't want to run anymore" stance. Given their situation, I'm not sure why VinCat wouldn't have hung onto their fake IDs but since they were going to Canada in S2 wouldn't they have needed passports then? Of course might be easier to cross into Canada rather than TRY TO GET ON A PLANE. LOL Roger Grant @rogerallengrant frockie Thomas Chandler was killed by Zhao, who we then met in the S2 premiere. I assume Thomas wouldn't have been killed if Cat hadn't been in a relationship with V. Not sure why kill Thomas and not Cat or maybe Souders and Peterson or Levin and Cooper had something they planned to reveal about Thomas. or just something like whatever was in Vanessa's file in HOD that was so "big" they couldn't tell Cat, but yet Levin and Cooper wondered what the fans were even asking about at NYCC. To me your Bob reasoning makes more sense given that we didn't get anything on screen. In my season two, Gabe would confess to Cat that he had hired someone to go after Thomas to distract her while he got what he needed from V. Gabe would confess this to try and stop Cat from saving him when he was trykilled ing to kill himself after discovering that his beastly side was no longer dormant. Wow, I have never seen this tweet and had no idea Zhao had had Thomas Chandler killed. It still begs the question 'Why?'
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:35:15 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat Except for one big difference. Cat had fallen into a marriage with Evan despite NOT being in love with him. She still had NO answers on her mum's death and still thought it was HER fault as she had called her mum out to help her start the car, because her battery was flat as she left the vanity mirror open. In the real world, she has found answers, been angry with and forgiven her mum AND she has met and fallen in love with Vincent. Whatever craziness him being in her life has caused her, she feels it's all still worth it because she has met her soul-mate.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:30:44 GMT -5
pippin , you're starting to make me think that Cat, the Scooby gang, and everyone who's died in this show really would have been better without Vincent in their lives. So 405 was wrong, or was it? I also just realized that the flaw in 405 is that Cat is still alive. She should have died the night her mother was murdered without V there to save her. Ah, this bit I am sure of. In 405, Cat HAD been rescued by Vincent on the night her mum was shot but she didn't actually MEET him. He killed the assassins, then ran away. When Cat came to the Wharehouse because Vincent's prints turned up on the buttons of her murder victime, he remained concealed and THAT'S where the story was different. At the end of Vincent's dream in 405, when she and Vincent are running, she realises that he was the beast that saved her all those years before. So Cat would not have been dead. She lived on the night her mum died bit didn't meet Vincent 10 years later. Oops. Sorry, BeastieBoy. I can now see this matter has been addressed and clarified by another post.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:28:39 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat Except for one big difference. Cat had fallen into a marriage with Evan despite NOT being in love with him. She still had NO answers on her mum's death and still thought it was HER fault as she had called her mum out to help her start the car, because her battery was flat as she left the vanity mirror open. In the real world, she has found answers, been angry with and forgiven her mum AND she has met and fallen in love with Vincent. Whatever craziness him being in her life has cause her, she feels it's all still worth it because she has met her soul-mate and is happy.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:10:25 GMT -5
In 405, I don't think Cat was shown to be in danger from Muirfield until Vincent popped back into her life. By inserting himself back into her "life," he sets off the chain of events leading Muirfield to use her as bait. Of course in the Pilot his corrupted DNA on Ashley sets off Cat to contact FBI / Muirfield. The precinct hostage was only because of Vincent and that stupid gem plot. But wasn't she out there investigating with Gabe because they thought it was beast-related? The bike messenger was in the 2nd episode, but he did save her twice in the Pilot when her mother was killed and then in the subway. But if he doesn't leave his corrupted DNA at the crime scene, Cat doesn't call FBI/Muirfield and doesn't get lured into the subway Tess getting shot in the sewer was were very much linked to Vincent, and JT's whole situation is all about Vincent. I was thinking,in season 1 especially, since the show was very much a procedural, the writers could have had Tess be in danger from a case that had no relation to Vincent at all. They could have introduced a non-Muirfield related bad, like some gang that Cat and Tess were investigating who would have killed Tess if Vincent hadn't saved her. They could even have had Sara be a psycho who went fatal attraction on JT or something so their lives weren't in danger only because of Vincent. They did better with Evan since Peter was his intern even if he wanted to re-create a Vincent kill, and Sabrina, although Vincent brought the case to Cat, but those were good non-beast related vililans. I think 405 did touch on something that might have made a better or more interesting case for the Vincent saving Cat angle but Cat would have had to been written very differently in the first season. pippin , you're starting to make me think that Cat, the Scooby gang, and everyone who's died in this show really would have been better without Vincent in their lives. So 405 was wrong, or was it? I also just realized that the flaw in 405 is that Cat is still alive. She should have died the night her mother was murdered without V there to save her. Ah, this bit I am sure of. In 405, Cat HAD been rescued by Vincent on the night her mum was shot but she didn't actually MEET him. He killed the assassins, then ran away. When Cat came to the Wharehouse because Vincent's prints turned up on the buttons of her murder victime, he remained concealed and THAT'S where the story was different. At the end of Vincent's dream in 405, when she and Vincent are running, she realises that he was the beast that saved her all those years before. So Cat would not have been dead. She lived on the night her mum died bit didn;t meet Vincent 10 years later.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 22, 2016 11:31:53 GMT -5
I think VinCat leaving would have been more effective if they hadn't already gone down this path twice in season 1 and then again in season 2. They were on their way to Canada with no hesitation in Partners in Crime and again in BITNB but now it's boo-hoo we have to leave?? And no one seems to remember Cat and V already have fake IDs from Never Turn Back or apparently how easy they were to get. I suppose Cat could feel more guilty about leaving Heather since her relationship with V is the reason their father is dead and she's leaving Heath with no immediate family now but that didn't seem to concern her in S2. LOL I was thinking about your post Pippin and had a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I didn't actually mind the idea of VinCat trying to run away as, although it was flirted with in Season 1, when they wanted to run off to Denver from Muirfield after Vincent was supposedly on the way to being 'cured' by Gabe's magic pill, they didn't actually do it for reasons we all know about. Again, in Season 2, Vincent was reluctant then ready to take Cat to Canada and Cat was ready then reluctant so again, it didn't happen. Vincent decided to stay and fight and persuaded Cat, and they still had the promise of an exoneration. But this time, there really seems to be no other option. No exoneration is on the table, no matter what they do and how many lives they save by bringing down this new beast. Vincent will be made an example of, for killing Hill, even though Hill was ultimately a coward who broke the law himself by hiring hit-men to kill Vincent, Cat, Tess and JT. One glimmer of light on the horizon though. Agent Dillon does now accept that Vincent is not a bad guy, but says that the powers that be do not see things the same way. On the subject of the fake IDs, they may not still have them. Cat got them when she was an NYPD Dectective. She is not in a position to get more as she has lost both her NYPD and DHS badges. Also, they were only going to Denver, not leaving the country, so this time they needed passports, not IDs. Last time, they were only running from Muirfield, not the law. This time, they would be running from every law enforcement body in the US. One other question. Why is Vincent the reason Cat's father (Thomas Chandler) was killed? I thought this was one of the many unanswered BATB questions. Thomas was on his way to see Cat and had a tablet on him which, when brought back to life, showed a picture of Bob Reynolds. I thought at the end of Season 1 that Bob Reynolds had Thomas Chandler killed to stop him telling Cat who her real father was. After all, he murdered Tyler in cold blood and left Gabe for dead so I wouldn't have put it past him. However, I changed my mind when Bob finally spoke to Cat as her father, as I realised that, although Bob was a bad man, he would not have killed Thomas. Then I just assumed Muirfield killed him for some reason we would find out in Season 2. But we never did. On the Heather front, when Cat was going to leave for Canada with Vincent, Heather was working in Miami, so essentially, she had already left Cat. Also, leaving Heather this time around wouldn't have to be the end. Cat and Vincent might not be able to come back but that would not stop Heather going to see them once they were settled somewhere.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 22, 2016 10:47:25 GMT -5
I knew there must be a lot of Italian blood there also with that name, but I was of course talking of the English accent that he still has despite all those years in the US and Canada. Still, it does make me feel a little better, It's not just the English that make good baddies, Italians too.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 22, 2016 10:35:06 GMT -5
It was nice to see Carl Rota. Too bad he didn't get to do more, but at least his character in BATB didn't get to treat Cat the way he treated KK's character in Ecstasy. I love Carlo Rota too. I remember him as Chloe's husband in '24' and he's also played great baddies in NCIS:Los Angeles and CSI:NY. Just one question to all you American and Canadian viewers, why are most of the baddies in your shows and Hollywood movies played by English actors? I am a Londoner and I've always wondered why this is. Should I take it personally? Do you think we are all evil or not to be trusted? LOL
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 22, 2016 10:20:37 GMT -5
Beast hug moment was cute. S eemed a bit more Jay than V to me. But I think Tess says he keeps Cat safe, doesn't mention the rest of them. And I don't know whether it was intentional or poor planning on the part of the show, or maybe I'm forgetting something, but except for saving Cat at the Salty Dawg, have any of them bee n saved by V from a situation that wasn't because of him, whether directly or indirectly? I used to think Evan would have been dead anyway but psycho Peter was recreating the Pilot's subway mauling. As we saw in 4.05 Cat's life would be in danger anyway both with Vincent in it or not because she was all concentrated to find the "thing" that saved her log time ago. So Vincent in a way saves Cat from herself and then in all those situations where he is involved directly or indirectly. Vincent in fact keeps safe all of them mostly because they are involved with Cat... he saved Tess at the precint in S2 the day of her birthday for example, and Cat and Vincent together saved JT from his obsession to find a cure for his friend because with Cat on his life Vincent no longer desire to free himself from the beast... it is a more complicated situation, but Tess in that convo wanted to focus the attention on how much she care to Cat despite her recent behaviour... And yes I think he is more Jay than Vincent too. Vincent saved Cat several times when it really had not a lot to do with him. Didn't he save her in S1 Anniversary from the sniper that was hired by the mob family to kill Gabe. Also he saved her twice in the pilot from people sent to kill her because she was 'poking her nose' into her mother's death. The bike messenger and the three Muirfield/FBI agents in the subway. Of course, she was looking into her mother's death because she had just met Vincent and thought he might know something but he warned her not to so it really wasn't his fault she was in danger. He also saved Tess when she fell into the storm drain in the sewer after being shot at and left for dead by the trigger-happy cops hired by Gabe in 'Partners in Crime'. JT has been saved by Vincent on too many occasions to mention and so has Cat. Vincent has also saved countless innocent bystanders from being robbed, attacked or blown-up, each time risking exposure of his beast side.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 10, 2016 17:47:54 GMT -5
The other odd thing about this scene was just moments before Vincent comes home to Cat's apartment. So why did they both go all the way over to JT's for V to take a shower? LOL. I have to admit that I thought Cat, Heather and JT were at JT's place, when Vincent comes in after being released by Braxton. They were monitoring Graydol's building on JT's computer, trying to work out why DHS didn't find Vincent when they raided it. Heather was standing at the bar and making tea. So, it makes sense that Vincent took a shower there. I just re-watched it and it was definitely JT's.
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