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Post by corinne on Jun 19, 2015 14:50:33 GMT -5
I thought the episode was great. I laughed out loud during the V and C car ride/Heather phone call. Loved the V and JT scenes. While I thought last week felt rushed and disjointed, I thought this week they found their footing. Fast paced, but not rushed. Yes, it got a bit silly with V beasting out about flat screens, but I didn't mind. I was entertained. Loved the last scene..."wanna play a video game?" Lol! LOL It's funny how everyone has its own opinion.... For me in 301, it was not rushed or disjointed. On the contrary, it was well built and constructed and all came for a reason and the proposal came so appropriately after the action scene and boat scene, and their discussion...
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Post by ArwenFan on Jun 19, 2015 15:23:38 GMT -5
Reminds me of the first part of Season 1 where Cat is solving a case but her words also had a double meaning, a personal theme running around in her mind. I was actually a big fan of those cases of the week, just for that reason. The writers actually integrated them with Cat's inner conflicts....And she grew, there was real character development. Same with Vincent. So that was one of the wonderful things about Season 1. Sherri & Jennifer knew exactly what they were doing. I didn't mind the cases of the week either, Bill, just for the reason you indicated. Well said. I don't know, but I sure as heck don't like it. It takes away all of Vincent's agency and if the same thing were being done to Catherine people would be yelling bloody murder. Also, I get the reasons behind the Fab Four's behavior in this episode. I just don't care for particular character traits, and I'm impatient with them dragging on and on. These include: Catherine's boss of me attitude and need to control everything and everyon; Vincent's passivity when she starts trying to run over him because he's afraid he'll beast out. Personally, I'd rather see him beast out and roar in her face once and a while. He doesn't have to hit or anything, but sometimes I feel like Cat needs to be reminded that she is not THE alpha male in the relationship. Then you have Heather's inability to friggin' grow up and stop behaving like she's 12. I think this is a symptom of a bigger source of annoyance for me, the "Peter Pan generation," Which drives me INSANE. I have zero tolerance for it. And let's not forget JT's paranoia. I love the guy, but a little goes a long way. Actually, Tess--the character I love to hate--was the only one who didn't bug the crap out of me in this episode.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 19, 2015 15:24:10 GMT -5
I thought the episode was great. I laughed out loud during the V and C car ride/Heather phone call. Loved the V and JT scenes. While I thought last week felt rushed and disjointed, I thought this week they found their footing. Fast paced, but not rushed. Yes, it got a bit silly with V beasting out about flat screens, but I didn't mind. I was entertained. Loved the last scene..."wanna play a video game?" Lol! LOL It's funny how everyone has its own opinion.... For me in 301, it was not rushed or disjointed. On the contrary, it was well built and constructed and all came for a reason and the proposal came so appropriately after the action scene and boat scene, and their discussion...
ditto, agree corinne
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 19, 2015 20:27:35 GMT -5
I've read all the comments here and agree with many of the points of those who loved it and those who didn't. I didn't love it, but I liked it quite a bit. For me it was a very fun and light episode, with a cool & empathetic villain and entertaining developments to VinCat's relationship. I was hoping for a mini cliffhanger at the end, and got it. I would like to see more twists like that. However, in some ways I felt it was actually more like an episode of the Flash than an episode of BATB. So I can see why some didn't like it. The romantic soul of BATB was not as evident in this episode. But I still felt enough of it whenever VinCat were together. I enjoyed their playful dialogue and some of the comedy. Would I want this to be the standard formula of BATB? No. But every once in a while is just fine with me. OTOH, if this had been the standard formula, I wonder if the show would have a wider audience? Reading Nick Roman's review, he really seems to like it this way and thinks more would watch. I wondered exactly the same thing while watching the show. I also enjoyed Ever After. But while that episode kind of took the show off tangent heading into the S2 finale, this episode (albeit a different feel) seems to be part of the build up to the foreboding danger yet to come. I'm expecting things to build up week by week and the romantic soul of the show to return. I hope we get some real angst and drama coming in future episodes. If that doesn't start to happen very soon, I'll start to worry like others about the direction the show has taken. For now, I'm just enjoying the ride!
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Post by Bill the beast on Jun 19, 2015 23:25:36 GMT -5
I appreciate the comments of batb4evr1 and I agree with her that the theme of Catherine as guardian of Vincent's humanity is a good theme and central to the mythology of the show. It was better the way she put it: "the Gem effect". Catherine is Vincent's Beast-Gem. Fair enough. And if Vincent had killed Reynolds (just before Cat shot Vincent), Vincent would have been lost. That would have been out of revenge and many other alternatives were available to him. Or in "Operation Fake Date" (2.21) Vincent goes to find Gabe and kill him for all the bad things he has done. Ironically, he finds that Cat has already killed him (more or less unintentionally) and now he has to help her save Gabe. Funny stuff. But it would not have been funny if (Beast) Vincent had gone over and murdered (non-Beast) Gabe. It's the difference between self-defense and murder. What I was saying was so far this season they've confused one with the other. That's why Catherine's theme is not working for me. She acts like she's still under the influence of Reynolds who told her all Beasts only get worse, "they become deranged monsters". So she runs out in front of Vincent pleading with him to not cross the line as he goes to confront the bad guys. But it looks to me like the "deranged monsters" are the guys who have been experimented on and are now threatening innocent people. In both cases they looked to be faster and more powerful than Vincent. So he's the hero for taking them on, and if that ends in them getting killed, it's not Vincent who's morally to blame. It would be the experimenters. (It is comic-book superheroes who have to pull their punches while fighting deadly enemies. That's one thing that gives their stories such a bizarre sense of the unreal) Cat understood this when she shot and killed the innocent Beast, Jacob Sutter. Sam was morally responsible for his death not her. She only had a split second to save Gabe. (Now that I think of it, that could have gone differently... but she didn't know) (But we knew, right?)
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Post by batb4evr1 on Jun 19, 2015 23:44:28 GMT -5
Bill the beast, you have my applause once again! Love your post! You get me and I get you! Cannot wait for the next episode to read your thoughts again. It's really great to have you and BeastieBoy in the forum!
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 20, 2015 2:14:33 GMT -5
I just did my own re-watch. I have to say I liked this episode even better the second time around!
A few random thoughts...
- Will Vincent continue to have these "primal" issues as he lives with Catherine? Interested to see if this plays out and develops or if it was a one episode issue.
- During the climatic battle, I was surprised that Catherine's "Gem Effect" not only worked on Vincent but on Alton aka electro-boy as well. Vincent actually looked like he was losing the battle. If he had returned to human form, Alton would have killed him if he hadn't also given in to Catherine's plea.
- I really love the triangle that seems to be forming with Vincent, Heather and Cat. It's not a love triangle, but a relationship triangle nonetheless. All of their interactions together, 1x1 and apart are priceless. The scene after the shower and the scene in the car were hilarious.
- It was way cool when JT hit the bulls eye (head shots) 3x in a row. With agent Thomas's warning to Vincent about "watch him", I'm intrigued about whether JT will evolve with a supernatural power of his own. (Batman needs a Robin?)
- While perhaps not as romantic as 301, I felt the VinCat dialogue was meaningful in that it showed how the couple's relationship continues to evolve. The ending scene with VinCat trying to get it on, but with the phones interrupting, was classic BATB.
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Post by ebeline on Jun 20, 2015 8:41:25 GMT -5
Did someone knew the song played in the last scene? I really like it. sorry no but they are released on the day of the u.s. airing - and if not we can always ask dondrea then, she will respond it was a nice song but could not make out lyrics to google it and find title Thanks Ana! Where can I find the release because I'm not on twitter so I can't ask dondrea.
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Jun 20, 2015 9:25:52 GMT -5
I just did my own re-watch. I have to say I liked this episode even better the second time around! A few random thoughts... - Will Vincent continue to have these "primal" issues as he lives with Catherine? Interested to see if this plays out and develops or if it was a one episode issue. - During the climatic battle, I was surprised that Catherine's "Gem Effect" not only worked on Vincent but on Alton aka electro-boy as well. Vincent actually looked like he was losing the battle. If he had returned to human form, Alton would have killed him if he hadn't also given in to Catherine's plea. - I really love the triangle that seems to be forming with Vincent, Heather and Cat. It's not a love triangle, but a relationship triangle nonetheless. All of their interactions together, 1x1 and apart are priceless. The scene after the shower and the scene in the car were hilarious. - It was way cool when JT hit the bulls eye (head shots) 3x in a row. With agent Thomas's warning to Vincent about "watch him", I'm intrigued about whether JT will evolve with a supernatural power of his own. (Batman needs a Robin?) - While perhaps not as romantic as 301, I felt the VinCat dialogue was meaningful in that it showed how the couple's relationship continues to evolve. The ending scene with VinCat trying to get it on, but with the phones interrupting, was classic BATB. Ditto! But I didn't have to re-watch to love those points...they had me in first viewing ....I just give myself any excuse to re-watch! LOL
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jun 20, 2015 10:04:11 GMT -5
sorry no but they are released on the day of the u.s. airing - and if not we can always ask dondrea then, she will respond it was a nice song but could not make out lyrics to google it and find title Thanks Ana! Where can I find the release because I'm not on twitter so I can't ask dondrea. take you home by scars on 45 www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR0hB1fscBYbeautiful song
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 10:34:54 GMT -5
I'm always nodding my head in agreement with Bill's thoughts on an episode. This is no exception.
So far, I'm not getting where Cat is coming from.....her "theme," so to speak, is really diffuse and not clear....to me. In S3 there have already been two overly melodramatic speech's from Cat that seem completely out of place and leave me raising my eyebrow. Also, the dichotomy between Vincent and the 'other' beasts is not well thought out....in my opinion.
I didn't particularily like this episode. Waaaaay too much silly exposition and disjointed action and narrative. Through most of the episode it felt like they thought the audience were twelve year old's. And the video game playing...C'mon! In my opinion, it's not believable that Vincent would still have any interest in playing video games after hiding out in JT's building for all those years. I was halfway expecting Cat to arrive and grab a game controller. :) Heck, maybe they asked Kristin and she said "you must be kidding."
I hope it gets better. My two cents.
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Post by ebeline on Jun 20, 2015 14:16:44 GMT -5
Thank you my beastie sister you are the best! Really a beautiful song.
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Post by corinne on Jun 20, 2015 14:55:27 GMT -5
Yeah like that song too!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 20, 2015 16:09:13 GMT -5
Well, after reading everyone's comments, I have to say, I have been SO LONG WITHOUT BATB that the writers could most likely give me ANYTHING, and I would be pleased. As a teen, I LOVED comic books. So an occasional episode like this keeps BATB from becoming too gothic in its potential misery.
I agree with Bill the Beast that I also have a problem with the idea that if Vincent kills one person REGARDLESS of the circumstances, he will lose his humanity. The writers need to PICK A VINCENT and go with it. What I mean by this is that Vincent in Season 1 had killed, but it was accidentally in trying to save people (other than Afghanistan where so many beasts together caused one another to just basically kill anything else that moved). PLUS, Vincent even seems to have fugued out with some of the killing, but even then, it was always to try to pull the attacker off the girl type of thing.
Season 2 Vincent DID go on missions to kill and had little remorse. To me, that was the mission-programming AND the Tori-factor of amping up the primal rage.
Now, we have Season 3 Vincent explain in this episode that there is little brainwave activity in beast-mode (how he knows this, I don't know, but I figured that the writers are now going with the Incredible Hulk version, as formerly seen on tv).
So the beast REACTS to Catherine, which I find romantic. If the writers ARE now going for the almost two independent sides of Vincent, then I like that both love Catherine. So I am NOT played out yet with this concept of her talking him down. Give me another episode or two, and I will probably agree with the rest of you.
HOWEVER, what I think the WRITERS are going for this season is the whole DESTINY thing. The theme seems to be that Vincent and Catherine are MEANT to be together and NOT just for love, but for some overriding purpose, like their ancestors before them. So VinCat are meant to work well together as well as play well together (NOW GUESS WHICH MODE I PREFER TO SEE THEM IN??? HeeHeeHee!)
Which means Catherine is somehow NECESSARY to Vincent's functioning in full superhero mode just as Vincent helps Catherine to be able to solve the case and enact justice. The writers seem to want to acquire an association with the SUPERHERO mythology. (Don't ask me yet how I fully feel about this. It is like the writers are trying to bring it more in line with the other CW shows and with superhero stuff as a whole, because Hollywood is COMPLETELY EMBRACING the whole superhero genre right not.)
With the SUPERHERO GENRE, the storyline is almost always the same. Ordinary to extraordinary, usually with a loved one dying in front of you that you couldn't save. And the character gets some superpower and is driven to use his powers for good. Oftentimes, if the superpower is inherited, it was ordained or DESTINED for the person to take up the quest of protector in pursuit of justice. Since the superhero storylines have given the CW their best ratings, they will of course try to make all of their shows lean towards this formula. YES IT IS WORRISOME if they change too much about BATB. But I am hanging in there by my little crazed paw and claws, and as long as they give me the romance, I'm still here for the long haul.
So going with the whole DESTINY thing, the writers are wanting to justify HAVING to have Catherine talking Vincent down from the ledge for us to see that they need to be together. AGAIN, might not be my personal preference, but I want my BATB in almost any form I can get it. So I am trying to see the theme and just go with it. AND ACCEPT that the writers have ALWAYS PLAYED FAST AND LOOSE with continuity from season to season, based on the theme.
As always, I LOVE the theme of Catherine REALLY being Vincent's gem. So he literally NEEDS her to be whole (and vice versa). I'm totally in this for the romance. (I realize the problems of individual self-actualization when this theory is taken too far. But my version of EPIC LOVE means that it is like finding the other half of oneself which only then makes you whole.)
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 20, 2015 16:37:49 GMT -5
I also see Catherine as still largely broken and unsure of herself. Leftovers from last season (as well as pretty much her whole life, as you found out in "Reunion." She tries to fix people, only to have them leave her.)
You see in 301 how Catherine really thought she had damaged her relationship with Vincent beyond repair. She figured it would be days before he even approached her again and that he really didn't want her around, or might not even want to move forward with her at all. You see how lonely and broken she is ON THE LEDGE of the roof--seemed like Catherine was literally and figuratively dangling desperately on the edge, torn between what she wants for her life and what she FEELS SHE NEEDS to do with said life. And she was so sad and then shocked and surprised to see Vincent there at all.
So Catherine is REALLY insecure with the relationship. She is shocked that Vincent proposes. Catherine wants to be with Vincent more than anything--it is the ONE and ONLY THING in her life that she is truly sure about. But she still feels alone in this feeling that her life will be with Vincent. And whenever Catherine is uncertain and scared to lose something, SHE INHERENTLY SABOTAGES the relationship. And that has been a classic Catherine trait from Season 1, as Thomas Chandler tells her in the episode where she goes to try on bridesmaid's dresses with Brooke.
So I see Catherine's actions in 302 as TRYING to push Vincent away, still convinced he will leave. She is quick to state that maybe it is too soon for him for them to be moving in together. When actually, it is too soon for Catherine, who is convinced that once he is there, he will ultimately want to leave her. So she pushes him away by getting all protective with her space. WHEN SHE IS REALLY trying to protect her heart. And Vincent's edginess and uncertainty about how to open up to Catherine only confirms her worst fears. So I rather saw this as being in-character for Catherine. Communication has always been her problem. Taking charge and going into detective mode allows her to divest herself of her feelings and feel useful. THIS KEEPS CATHERINE FROM FEELING HELPLESS and uncertain of her feelings. Catherine can't deal, shuts down, and goes into case-mode, which seems the only way she truly feels in control and certain about how to proceed. Notice, she never seemed hesitant about how to proceed while in pursuit of a case. ONLY IN matters of the heart does Catherine become completely out of her depth.
So I still felt Catherine's reactions in this episode were consistent and running on the theme that Catherine DOESN'T doubt her love for Vincent, but her inner insecurities still cause her to doubt Vincent's love and staying power with her in the long run. (So sadly, in the bedroom, she has no doubts in whether or not Vincent wants to be with her in the moment--she just doesn't think he may be able to live with her for life.) Which still shows Catherine's self-worth issues: she is confident on a case and on a mission BUT NOT in love matters. No wonder, given her track record.
And I took Vincent's reactions to Catherine's possessiveness of her things as being an inner reaction to her not seeming to really want him there or accepting of ALL of him. And NORMAL to Vincent means putting down ROOTS and finally being able to have a home that you DON'T have to be able to move from within 15 minutes. So I LIKED the inherent insecurity that seemed to be triggered in BOTH Vincent and Catherine, just from trying to build a life together under the same roof.
Like Bill the Beast, I would like the writers to clarify the Vincent thing. If Vincent kills in self-defense, he will feel remorse but not be at risk of losing his humanity. Choosing to murder another human individual in cold blood is an ENTIRELY different thing, such as when Vincent wanted to kill a human Gabe in "Operation: Fake Death." Yes, Gabe was trying to ruin Vincent's life at that time, BUT Gabe was not trying to kill him (at least, not then). So definite morality problems there, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT WAS HUMAN Vincent that was planning to go to Gabe's, beast-out once there, and kill him. But Season 3 Vincent seems to think that killing anyone while raging about in beast mode means that his beast lusts for the kill and won't let go once it feels the "satisfaction" in accomplishing its mission. Guess we will just have to see where the season takes us in regards to Vincent's beast side.
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