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Post by bbatb on Sept 16, 2015 0:02:29 GMT -5
And Biafin, the Season 2 objectionable stuff (for me) were seeing Vincent kiss Tori and him in robe and her in sheets in 212 at beginning of episode and the like. Seeing how those scenes scarred me for life made me realize just WHY we didn't get any potential Liam attracted to Cat scenes. Even though we KNOW Cat would NOT have reciprocated, would probably cause the same type of fan reactions as happened in Season 2. Plus, if you humanize Liam too much, you feel bad when Vincent rips out his heart. As it was, I was vastly unsettled and appreciated how Cat played that horrified look, even knowing that Liam had to die. You can't ever forget how close to the surface the possibility of beast/primal instincts overcoming sense and rationality can be (which, of course, we saw too much of in Season 2. So I argue that stuff IS relevant here, believe it or not.). We HAVE to see a difference between Vincent and characters like Liam and Tori, so the primal stuff has more relevance and is more of a threat. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Scarred for life - yes that is exactly how I feel about those scenes. Especially the kiss was all Vincent trying to persuade Tori not to leave him and here I was all the time convincing myself that SHE was the one pushing for this relationship and HE had just gone along with it, because he lost Catherine anyway. So disgusting to have my 'trying to make some kind of sense of this mess' theory go down the drain after seeing that. And as for the other scene - I mean I knew that they were not gazing over the water in the evening on that darn boat, but I did not have to see a half-naked Tori cuddled up on Vincent's also naked chest. Why do we get those kind of scenes and - except for AMP and INSATIABLE a long time ago - not those kind of scenes between the two people that matter to us?
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Post by biafin on Sept 16, 2015 1:34:15 GMT -5
alwayscrazedbatbfan & bbatb, wow, I am happy that they cut off these scenes, I wouldn't like to see these scenes at all! What a nightmare!
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Post by biafin on Sept 17, 2015 7:22:56 GMT -5
I have just finished watching season 3 and I have mix feelings regarding this season... It was way better than season 2 (that I mostly hated) but at the same time, I think Cat changed a lot comparing to season 1... She seems a lot colder and somehow I cannot feel the same love coming from her as I did in season 1. In my point of view, KK acting changed and I don't know why (I don't believe that it is only the script). My impression is that Vincent is still totally in love, doing everything for Cat and I can still see that he still look at her as she is everything in his life... I just would like to see the same in Cat's face (as in season 1). The season 3 itself was not bad, but the magic is missing.. and their bird kisses is a never ending thing ( no real kiss anymore).. They are nowadays kissing like teenagers series... The action in episode 3x13 was quite nice and interesting... even though it feels like the whole episode was done in a hurry (probably because of the lack of time).. I never understood why they changed the 22 episodes to only 13 episodes... does anyone have a answer for that? The wedding idea was super cute and I like that was done in their special spot.. I am super romantic, so I really wanted to love the scene.. but the proposal scene was way more romantic and beautiful then the weeding. But of course, I am happy that they are married now and I am looking forward to watch season 4... hopefully with more epic love, more romance and sensual scenes Now we just have to wait for season 4 to come out...
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Post by batb4evr1 on Sept 17, 2015 9:37:46 GMT -5
And Biafin, the Season 2 objectionable stuff (for me) were seeing Vincent kiss Tori and him in robe and her in sheets in 212 at beginning of episode and the like. Seeing how those scenes scarred me for life made me realize just WHY we didn't get any potential Liam attracted to Cat scenes. Even though we KNOW Cat would NOT have reciprocated, would probably cause the same type of fan reactions as happened in Season 2. Plus, if you humanize Liam too much, you feel bad when Vincent rips out his heart. As it was, I was vastly unsettled and appreciated how Cat played that horrified look, even knowing that Liam had to die. You can't ever forget how close to the surface the possibility of beast/primal instincts overcoming sense and rationality can be (which, of course, we saw too much of in Season 2. So I argue that stuff IS relevant here, believe it or not.). We HAVE to see a difference between Vincent and characters like Liam and Tori, so the primal stuff has more relevance and is more of a threat. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Scarred for life - yes that is exactly how I feel about those scenes. Especially the kiss was all Vincent trying to persuade Tori not to leave him and here I was all the time convincing myself that SHE was the one pushing for this relationship and HE had just gone along with it, because he lost Catherine anyway. So disgusting to have my 'trying to make some kind of sense of this mess' theory go down the drain after seeing that. And as for the other scene - I mean I knew that they were not gazing over the water in the evening on that darn boat, but I did not have to see a half-naked Tori cuddled up on Vincent's also naked chest. Why do we get those kind of scenes and - except for AMP and INSATIABLE a long time ago - not those kind of scenes between the two people that matter to us? Yes, my dear Beastie bbatb, the whole Vincent / Tori thing was, as the TWEENS say, "messed up" and just about made us throw-up!!! LOL My personal script had Vincent and Cat helping Tori come to terms with her Beast side and grooming her to be mentored by Vincent to control it and use it to help fight the good fight with them. If I saw her with anyone it would have been newly humanized Gabe, since the script had me thinking it was going that way especially during the "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" episode as he was so convincingly acting the protector role with Tori which would have resulted in keeping him away from his Cat crush!
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Post by bbatb on Sept 17, 2015 12:27:53 GMT -5
For me the whole S2 was messed up. It started so well and actually quite romantic with 201 and then in 202 with the 'shove' (which killed epic love forever for me) it went down the drain. They had told us that Tori would be like his little sister and he her mentor - well, we all know how he 'mentored' her. Anyway, MY idea would have been that Tori developed a crush on Vincent and tried all her powers and pheromones to lure him away from Catherine, creating scenes and incidences where she would come between them or cause misunderstandings, etc. But when Vincent does not respond in the way she wants him to, she decides that Catherine has to go. And then she goes after Catherine in earnest. THAT could have given us plenty of drama, angst, suspension, action, surprises and so on. Of course, I absolutely ADORE your idea ' batb4evr1' of pairing Tori with 'the one I will never mention by name anymore'.
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Post by pippin on Sept 20, 2015 14:30:04 GMT -5
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Post by BeastieBoy on Sept 28, 2015 1:57:07 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority, but I really like the song used at the closing of this episode. I had never heard of it before, but I think it's very fitting, especially when listening to the lyrics. I can't get this tune out of my head now. The Zombies - This Will Be Our Year (1968) The warmth of your love's Like the warmth from the sun And this will be our year Took a long time to come
Don't let go of my hand Now darkness has gone This will be our year Took a long time to come
And I won't forget The way you helped me Up when I was down And I won't forget The way you said Darling I love you You gave me faith to go on Now we're there And we've only just begun This will be our year Took a long time to come
The warmth of your smile Smile for me little one And this will be our year Took a long time to come
You don't have to worry All your worried days are gone And this will be our year Took a long time to come
And I won't forget The way you helped me Up when I was down And I won't forget The way you said Darling I love you You gave me faith to go on Now we're there And we've only just begun This will be our year Took a long time to come
And this will be our year Took a long time to come
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Post by bbatb on Sept 28, 2015 2:44:43 GMT -5
Well, I really like the song too, and the lyrics are hopefully a forecast for S4 and what is to come. Maybe this will really be their year in S4. Yeah, we know there has to be more drama and excitement and angst, but hopefully there will also be a lot more 'this will be our year' because, INDEED it 'took a long time to come'.
Ever the romantic and the optimist, I will take this song as a good sign for the next season. Thanks 'beastieboy' for posting the lyrics.
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Post by sweetrosie29 on Sept 28, 2015 4:55:18 GMT -5
I too loved the closing song and now seeing all the lyrics I too hope it is a forecast for season4
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Post by batb4evr1 on Sept 28, 2015 7:48:37 GMT -5
BeastieBoy, bbatb and sweetrosie29, our VinCat deserve those words to be evident in Season 4 but here's hoping this will be OUR year as well in terms of better scripts and to the show getting back on track in terms of focusing on why we fell so hard for this show! Now what about these unanswered questions, was there something else besides her true parentage hiding in Cat's files at Muirfield which Evan found and Vincent confirmed (was she predisposed or does our Cat have unique DNA), what's in Rebecca's journal (Heather has read it), the GEM (still a mystery), the Beast skeleton (still a mystery as to who it is and where it came from), why and how Kurt Windsor came to possess it (why, how and really why), Alistair's true connection to Liam (beyond the love triangle further rejection, was there more to that intense hatred). Dare I say I believe we can have at least a Season 5 if we only focused on these loose ends. Not to mention that we haven't truly looked into Vincent's family background which obviously eludes to his DNA being predisposed to unleashing his Beast! With these great scripts in play, maybe we can get the return of loss fans as well as increased viewership which would garner BATB the respect and attention it always deserved!
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Sept 28, 2015 9:11:31 GMT -5
QUESTION I had at the ending of this season---is Heather living at VinCat's apartment now? I figure that they probably had her staying with them once Liam was coming after them. And will Season 4 start with a time jump or right after the events of 313? Considering she was unemployed and how expensive NYC is, she should have been staying with them. Personally, I thought it was kind of rude that they made her stay at a hotel in 301, but unless, she just passed out in Cat's bed, since she and Cat were sharing one in Shotgun Wedding, I'm not sure what happened to her former bedroom. At the end of 3x02, she says she is staying at Janet's who I am guessing is a friend of Heather's. After the shower incident, Cat tells her she should hand back her key to Cat's appartment, saying, 'Man in the house' and Heather agrees, but then at the start of 3x03, she lets herself in again, waking Vincent who has fallen asleep on the sofa. I am guessing she doesn't live with Cat and Vincent but lets herself in whenever she feel like it. Must be irritating, to Vincent especially. Obviously with Liam on the loose, they may have asked her to stay to keep her safe and also, because she was helping them to bring him down.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Sept 28, 2015 10:58:50 GMT -5
And Biafin, the Season 2 objectionable stuff (for me) were seeing Vincent kiss Tori and him in robe and her in sheets in 212 at beginning of episode and the like. Seeing how those scenes scarred me for life made me realize just WHY we didn't get any potential Liam attracted to Cat scenes. Even though we KNOW Cat would NOT have reciprocated, would probably cause the same type of fan reactions as happened in Season 2. Plus, if you humanize Liam too much, you feel bad when Vincent rips out his heart. As it was, I was vastly unsettled and appreciated how Cat played that horrified look, even knowing that Liam had to die. You can't ever forget how close to the surface the possibility of beast/primal instincts overcoming sense and rationality can be (which, of course, we saw too much of in Season 2. So I argue that stuff IS relevant here, believe it or not.). We HAVE to see a difference between Vincent and characters like Liam and Tori, so the primal stuff has more relevance and is more of a threat. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Scarred for life - yes that is exactly how I feel about those scenes. Especially the kiss was all Vincent trying to persuade Tori not to leave him and here I was all the time convincing myself that SHE was the one pushing for this relationship and HE had just gone along with it, because he lost Catherine anyway. So disgusting to have my 'trying to make some kind of sense of this mess' theory go down the drain after seeing that. And as for the other scene - I mean I knew that they were not gazing over the water in the evening on that darn boat, but I did not have to see a half-naked Tori cuddled up on Vincent's also naked chest. Why do we get those kind of scenes and - except for AMP and INSATIABLE a long time ago - not those kind of scenes between the two people that matter to us? When I got the Season 2 boxset I steeled myself to watch those scenes and only managed to watch the kiss that you mentioned. I rationaise it it my mind in the context of that episode which was, for a lover of VINCAT, the hardest episode to watch, not because of Tori (who was nothing more to Vincent than a stray cat that he chose to look after) but because Cat and Vincent were about as far away from being a loving couple as we have ever seen them. However, love and hate are two sides of the same coin and even in this episode, it is clear that the feelings between them are bubbling under the surface. Vincent tracks some criminal to the bar and on seeing him there, Cat grabs Patrick and kisses him. Why? Well it's obvious isn't it? To make Vincent jealous. Because she still loves him. She's angry with him of course but she still loves him just the same. It works because he goes back to the houseboat and kisses Tori. To show Tori he loves her? No, because he dosen't. It's to show himself that he's over Cat. Which he isn't of course. If you think Vincent is driving the relationship with Tori, you have to ask yourself, why is Tori so insecure? It's because she knows that Vincent does not love her and still has feelings for Cat, even if those feelings are hurt and betrayal at the time, for her supposedly siding with Reynolds against him. What does he say during that Talk Show? He's keeping his options open. I remember Tori's face and the look of disappointment. Vincent is not in a position at this time to rationise things or see anything from Cat's point of view. As soon as there is a reconcilliation with Cat and Vincent (Held Hostage) Tori realises it's only a matter of time before Cat and Vincent are back together and she is cast aside. You could say that Vincent is cruel to Tori in many ways and that he uses her. But this is not the Vincent of Season 1 or the Vincent we saw at the end of Season 2, fighting for his love. He is still suffering from the after-effects of his time with Reynolds, away from Cat. We cannot judge a man who, other a period of 3 months had been completely broken down and re-molded into a killing machine with no memories or feelings. He may have regained most of his memory, but he still must have been traumatized and changed by that experience. It is not until the 'Catch me if you can' episode that we see how far Vincent had come, putting an innocent life ahead of all else. It's then (or during the course of 'About Last Night') that Cat realises he has changed and they are able to kick-start their relationship, but the love NEVER went away, even at their darkest moments as a couple. I think from that moment until the Roof-top Wedding, they have both been 'all-in'. The romance may not have been as obviously on show or 'in your face' as before, but it was there just the same, and I'm hoping that, now they are married and all the indications are that fans will love Season 4 like they loved Season 1, we may get some 'in your face' romance at last. Don't give up hope, my fellow Beasties, and don't say you're resigned to never seeing it again. We should demand it as our right and our reward for staying with the show through thick and thin.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Sept 28, 2015 11:15:55 GMT -5
BeastieBoy, bbatb and sweetrosie29, our VinCat deserve those words to be evident in Season 4 but here's hoping this will be OUR year as well in terms of better scripts and to the show getting back on track in terms of focusing on why we fell so hard for this show! Now what about these unanswered questions, was there something else besides her true parentage hiding in Cat's files at Muirfield which Evan found and Vincent confirmed (was she predisposed or does our Cat have unique DNA), what's in Rebecca's journal (Heather has read it), the GEM (still a mystery), the Beast skeleton (still a mystery as to who it is and where it came from), why and how Kurt Windsor came to possess it (why, how and really why), Alistair's true connection to Liam (beyond the love triangle further rejection, was there more to that intense hatred). Dare I say I believe we can have at least a Season 5 if we only focused on these loose ends. Not to mention that we haven't truly looked into Vincent's family background which obviously eludes to his DNA being predisposed to unleashing his Beast! With these great scripts in play, maybe we can get the return of loss fans as well as increased viewership which would garner BATB the respect and attention it always deserved! We had Season 1 introducing the characters and Season 2 introducing the history with Alistair and Rebecca (and Liam as we now know). Season 3 re-visited Season 2's arc and it looks like Season 4 will take us full circle and re-visit Vincent's army days and the murder of his unit. I hope that dosen't mean it's all in a neat little bow and subsequently no Season 5. It occurred to me that Alistair and Liam could have been brothers. That could be why they were both beasts and why Liam hated Alistair so much when he stole Rebecca from him. Just a thought.
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Post by batb4evr1 on Sept 28, 2015 14:27:43 GMT -5
BeastieBoy, bbatb and sweetrosie29, our VinCat deserve those words to be evident in Season 4 but here's hoping this will be OUR year as well in terms of better scripts and to the show getting back on track in terms of focusing on why we fell so hard for this show! Now what about these unanswered questions, was there something else besides her true parentage hiding in Cat's files at Muirfield which Evan found and Vincent confirmed (was she predisposed or does our Cat have unique DNA), what's in Rebecca's journal (Heather has read it), the GEM (still a mystery), the Beast skeleton (still a mystery as to who it is and where it came from), why and how Kurt Windsor came to possess it (why, how and really why), Alistair's true connection to Liam (beyond the love triangle further rejection, was there more to that intense hatred). Dare I say I believe we can have at least a Season 5 if we only focused on these loose ends. Not to mention that we haven't truly looked into Vincent's family background which obviously eludes to his DNA being predisposed to unleashing his Beast! With these great scripts in play, maybe we can get the return of loss fans as well as increased viewership which would garner BATB the respect and attention it always deserved! We had Season 1 introducing the characters and Season 2 introducing the history with Alistair and Rebecca (and Liam as we now know). Season 3 re-visited Season 2's arc and it looks like Season 4 will take us full circle and re-visit Vincent's army days and the murder of his unit. I hope that dosen't mean it's all in a neat little bow and subsequently no Season 5. It occurred to me that Alistair and Liam could have been brothers. That could be why they were both beasts and why Liam hated Alistair so much when he stole Rebecca from him. Just a thought. AlisongladaboutSeason4, my dear Beastie! Are we Beast Sisters? The brother vs brother rationale was in my head from the time we were introduced to Alistair as he fought the unnamed Evil Beast! You are in my head and I do like the way you think! We have some great literary minds here in the DEN! I think as a team we could really bring strong contributions to the writers pool for future scripts on our BATB!
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Post by bbatb on Sept 29, 2015 11:55:31 GMT -5
Hello ' AlisongladaboutSeason4' - I just copied one paragraph of your post - otherwise it just gets sooo big: Quote: When I got the Season 2 boxset I steeled myself to watch those scenes and only managed to watch the kiss that you mentioned. I rationaise it it my mind in the context of that episode which was, for a lover of VINCAT, the hardest episode to watch, not because of Tori (who was nothing more to Vincent than a stray cat that he chose to look after) but because Cat and Vincent were about as far away from being a loving couple as we have ever seen them. However, love and hate are two sides of the same coin and even in this episode, it is clear that the feelings between them are bubbling under the surface. Vincent tracks some criminal to the bar and on seeing him there, Cat grabs Patrick and kisses him. Why? Well it's obvious isn't it? To make Vincent jealous. Because she still loves him. She's angry with him of course but she still loves him just the same. It works because he goes back to the houseboat and kisses Tori. To show Tori he loves her? No, because he dosen't. It's to show himself that he's over Cat. Which he isn't of course. If you think Vincent is driving the relationship with Tori, you have to ask yourself, why is Tori so insecure? It's because she knows that Vincent does not love her and still has feelings for Cat, even if those feelings are hurt and betrayal at the time, for her supposedly siding with Reynolds against him. What does he say during that Talk Show? He's keeping his options open. I remember Tori's face and the look of disappointment. Vincent is not in a position at this time to rationise things or see anything from Cat's point of view. As soon as there is a reconcilliation with Cat and Vincent (Held Hostage) Tori realises it's only a matter of time before Cat and Vincent are back together and she is cast aside. End of Quote I completely agree with you that throughout S2 their love was just under the surface - except when Vincent went completely beast and crashed her car and did not even check if she was okay. Somebody said that it was not necessary, because he could hear her heartbeat and he knew that she was alive, which IMO is not enough, she could have still been badly hurt. But other than that it was mostly evident. The incident in the bar - I highlighted your sentence above - was beautiful, although I am seeing it a little differently: I think that Catherine is afraid that Vincent will blow her cover by coming over to talk to her - he did start toward her as if he was about to do just that - and that is the reason she kissed Patrick to stop Vincent in his tracks. And it worked and also had the benefit of making him jealous and the added bonus of making the redhead jealous and hopping mad. There are two cut out scenes that were supposed to follow the bar incident. One is where Tori runs away from the bar completey mad and steamed and Vincent runs after her and they have a little fight right there in the dark alley. Then she blurrs away and Vincent must have been walking it off the rest of the night, because when he gets back to the boat it is daylight and then the second cut out scene occurs: the kiss. He totally kissed her to convince her to stay - and she did. Since during the kiss, they both started to beast out, I am guessing (and that is really all we can do) that the writers wanted to show us their 'primal attraction' and the reason why they were together. It is impossible to know why these scenes were cut out. Was it time constraints or did they really not want to antagonize the fans any further? It does not really matter, because what was left in was bad eough for me. I still have hope for S4 and even if it should NOT deliver, I will watch it and stay with it until the wheels fall off. The reason why I am so critical sometimes is not because I do not love the show - it is because I DO love the show so much and I want it to fulfill its potential to the maximum. However, I am not seeing that happening yet since the this show runner has taken over. There are many who love S3 and that is great for them. I can only see it from my point of view and I will never try to convince anybody to come over to MY side of the fence. Still love discussing different view points.
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