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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 29, 2015 15:56:50 GMT -5
AlisonGladAboutSeason4 --- Your description of Tori as Vincent's "stray cat." HEEHEEHEEHEEHEE!!!! LOVE LOVE that one! In fact, let's say it again together: Tori is Vincent's stray cat. (And a particularly vile, coniving, home-wrecking, ill-tempered stray at that!) Yep, still love it!!!
As to why Cat kissed Patrick: Vincent saw Cat in the bar and AUTOMATICALLY moved towards her to see WHY she was there. You can TELL that it is an automatic response to move TO her that he just can't deny, even though they are supposedly on the "outs" with one another. Cat panics. Her cover will be BLOWN as soon as Vincent says her name. So she basically kisses Patrick, KNOWING Vincent won't approach her then (since he will think she is "with" Patrick).
The totally tragic thing, in my opinion, was that Cat's action to keep Vincent from blowing her cover basically pushes him into Stray Cat/Tori's arms, as Vincent, too, wants to prove to himself that Cat's kissing someone else meant nothing to him. And by the by, I LOVE HOW JAY PLAYS THAT MOMENT when he sees Cat kiss Patrick --that look of shock. Vincent is clearly devastated that Cat appears to have moved on OR is trying to make him jealous. It was NEITHER of those things, in my opinion. Cat had to keep her cover intact, which would have been blown the moment Vincent called her name.
So Vincent's act is one born out of desperation to 1) not be alone and to 2) more importantly, prove to HIMSELF that he is over Cat and not upset by her seemingly appearing to have moved on.
So even though I usually rant at Vincent in Season 2 over his behavior, I honestly think that he is NOT trying to use Stray Cat/Tori here. He is TRYING to move on, since he sees Stray Cat as being the only "cat" he can have at this time. He wants to hold onto his anger against Catherine in order to keep from feeling PAIN, as he was obviously shocked and upset to think Cat was moving on without him.
By the next episode, however, the anger is dissolved by episode's end. You SEE when they are lying on the floor of the precinct that Vincent CLEARLY still LOVES Catherine and vice versa. The connection practically sizzles, JUST with their looks. AGAIN, however, you have Vincent see the apparent "connection" (I use this term VERY loosely when describing "he who should NOT be mentioned again--ding dong, glad the Evil UnNamed is Dead!) between It and Cat, so he leaves with Stray Tori.
But by the very next episode, 212, Vincent realizes that he has no real feelings for Tori, so he has to break off the relationship rather than leading her own, which he does. HOWEVER, he later tells Tori on the phone that he would "talk to her" later, meaning he might HAVE tried to take Cat's advice and make it work with Tori, due to Cat saying that they were only "friends." Tori dies, so we will never know what might have been. I would LOVE to think that Vincent would have STAYED broken up with Tori. Cat certainly would NOT have leaped into the relationship with "It," as she ONLY starts up with him AFTER she thinks Vincent had moved on, based on his grief at Tori's death. Sigh. Horrible moments revisited with Strays and "Its."
BEASTIEBOY: LOVE the lyrics as well even if I wasn't overly fond of how the song sounded. Still was perfect for the moment.
While I'm anxious for next season, I hope they DON'T spend too much time letting us see Heather's love life. We haven't dealt with where she is living, now that the Liam stuff is all over. Depending on how long the Honeymoon is (AH LOVELY WORD--HONEYMOON FOR VINCAT!!!!!!! They had BETTER given us SOMETHING from this MOMENTOUS OCCASION!!!!!!!), Heather could have been making herself at home in their apartment while they were away, using as the excuse that she was keeping an eye on the place.
For BATB, the supporting characters are loved by myself and are certainly better developed than other supporting characters have been on other shows. But while I love them, I REALLY REALLY want to see more VINCAT time next season. And NOT them just bemoaning the people and things after them. I want to SEE them talking about their future and enjoying marital bliss!!!!
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Post by mocha83 on Oct 2, 2015 23:32:45 GMT -5
For BATB, the supporting characters are loved by myself and are certainly better developed than other supporting characters have been on other shows. But while I love them, I REALLY REALLY want to see more VINCAT time next season. And NOT them just bemoaning the people and things after them. I want to SEE them talking about their future and enjoying marital bliss!!!!THIS!!! This is what needs to be the basis of S4. VinCat are finally married and with that really starts to set certain things in motion; such as where they potentially want to settle down at, having children sooner rather than later, or just plain mapping out every blissful day together for the rest of their lives. It may sound redundant in theory, but if written right and with the likes of KK and JR bringing these classic storybook characters to life; the outcome should be magical. Again the S1 essence is still what is missing and I am hoping that S4 can bring it all full circle. For example, we know so much about Cat and her life's story, past and present and so on, but we have yet to continue to connect with Vincen't character. I guess I am getting desperate here. lol I would love for BatB to shed some more light on his New York roots. Okay the hospital, going back to work there is only a fraction. But before BatB is no more, I still feel like there is ALOT more story to tell. 4 seasons just isn't enough by our standards, lol. This may have to do with the abomination that was the first half of S2. A lot of ground was lost and it went into this awkward "love triangle". Given the not-so-great story lines, the underlying basis was clear: VinCat are meant-to-be. But on the other hand, I kinda feel like somehow Vincent was implanted more into Cat's universe like he came from far far away or something and we generally know how he grew up, the upbringing he had, his family bloodline and all that. I don't know its hard to explain. The whole Rebecca and Allistair story is all coming from Cat's side of the family. I just wish we got a little story arc in S4 just giving us more layers into the incredible man that is Vincent Keller. No more exes popping up, just giving us more of a familial essence a la Vincent. That brings us back to the constancy level, doesn't it? That's all. haha make sense?
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Oct 6, 2015 12:55:41 GMT -5
batb4evr1: I never thought of the 'blowing her cover' angle. You might very well be right but I think making Vincent jelous was an added advantage of the kiss with Patrick. I seem to remember that Cat was torturing herself with newspaper articles about Vincent and Tori and Tess called her out on it. So she was definately jealous too and in denial. Vincent was clearly out of control when he crashed the car and attacked Reynolds. The nearest he's ever come to crossing the Primal line. I think he recognised that later on when he spoke to Cat on breaking out of prison, saying 'I could come out of jail worse than the beast I was when I killed Curt Windsor', so I think we have to trace Vincent's descent back to the moment he met Tori and killed Windsor.
I think TPTB did cut the scenes to not further antagonise the fans as the negativity was starting to filter through after the Guess whose coming to dinner episode and the Man or Beast mid-season finale. That's my guess anyway. I could have done without having them on the DVD but I will still watch Season 2 for the last 7 episodes and some of the earlier ones like Who Am I and Hothead that I enjoyed too.
Whilst the romance was not always on show as much as it could have been in Season 3, you can't deny that this was the first season when neither of them were involved in any love triangles or were in relationships with anyone else (which made a nice change) and they WERE committed to each other as a couple. I have a strong feeling that Season 4 will NOT dissappoint in the romance stakes. I am very optimistic due to some of the comments coming off the set from the actors and the like. Lets hope for all our sakes I am proved to be right,
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Oct 6, 2015 13:16:22 GMT -5
alwayscrazedbatbfan: Vincent breaks up with Tori but I don't think he means to cut her out of his life completely as he still feels responsible for her after killing her father and leaving her alone in the world. He definately doesn't want to be in a relationship with her, though. The grief at her death is not actually that intense. But we know Vincent wants to save people and Tori is no exception, even if he is no longer in a relationship with her. I think he is upset because he knows she died trying to get into his good books by saving JT. He's a bit down but if Cat died, you'd see a different level of grief and it wouldn't surprise me if Vincent chose not to go on living without her.
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dwayne1111
Army Recruit
The art of leadership is saying no, not yes. It is very easy to say yes. (Tony Blair)
Posts: 183
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Post by dwayne1111 on Oct 7, 2015 1:51:44 GMT -5
alwayscrazedbatbfan: Vincent breaks up with Tori but I don't think he means to cut her out of his life completely as he still feels responsible for her after killing her father and leaving her alone in the world. He definately doesn't want to be in a relationship with her, though. The grief at her death is not actually that intense. But we know Vincent wants to save people and Tori is no exception, even if he is no longer in a relationship with her. I think he is upset because he knows she died trying to get into his good books by saving JT. He's a bit down but if Cat died, you'd see a different level of grief and it wouldn't surprise me if Vincent chose not to go on living without her. I admire your deep insight in the storyline. Great work. I agree with you. V said in season 1 that he woudn't want to live without Catherine. It was all about one thing, beast influence and primal beast attraction. But the worst part for me was, V's free own will was taken away from him. Catherine saved him from crossing the primal line and the door was open for him to find back to himself, I mean to his former self, and to find out who he really wants to be more, man or beast. It was a painful journey for him and for the fans as well.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Nov 26, 2015 13:46:45 GMT -5
I've been re-watching S1 to pass time while voting for the PCAs, just finished 1x17 Partners in Crime. I noticed an interesting tidbit of wardrobe trivia...
In 1x17, Cat is wearing a burgundy pullover with black undergarment AND later a light gray sweater (fire escape scene); she wears these exact same outfits again in this 3x13 episode.
Also, like 1x17, in 3x13 Cat wears the burgundy pullover in much of the episode (e.g. when she's captured by Liam), but for the ending scenes she's wearing her light gray sweater (e.g. in the DHS office and drinking party scene). So it's in the same order of appearance too.
Now I've seen Cat (and other characters) wear the same clothes in different episodes in different seasons, but I found it very interesting that Cat is wearing two outfits that are the same in both of these episodes and in the same sequence. Makes me wonder if it's simply coincidence or if Catherine Ashton had some specific reason for picking those two same outfits for this episode.
But other than the wardrobe similarities, I can't see another connection between the two episodes.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Dec 2, 2015 1:31:10 GMT -5
Just another random thought as I do my re-watches while voting for the PCAs. In 2x01, Gabe died but was brought back to life by Cat. This supposedly killed the beast in Gabe and left him human when revived. However, in this episode Vincent flat lines, like Gabe, and is then brought back to life. Yet the beast remains in Vincent. Go figure? I do wish the writers would pay closer attention to such details.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 2:44:41 GMT -5
Just another random thought as I do my re-watches while voting for the PCAs. In 2x01, Gabe died but was brought back to life by Cat. This supposedly killed the beast in Gabe and left him human when revived. However, in this episode Vincent flat lines, like Gabe, and is then brought back to life. Yet the beast remains in Vincent. Go figure? I do wish the writers would pay closer attention to such details. I think the difference is that Gabe died while he was in beast-mode on, so the beast was killed. Vincent was shot while he was on his human side instead. Moreover Vincent's heart didn't stop for the gun shot, but he used his power to stop his heart (like Carol did) to fool Liam... so he was in control of all the situation though he hasn't tryed yet. At least that was what I've understood
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Post by Jewels on Dec 2, 2015 4:00:27 GMT -5
I also think JT's serum may have played a part
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Post by bbatb on Dec 2, 2015 13:43:53 GMT -5
Just another random thought as I do my re-watches while voting for the PCAs. In 2x01, Gabe died but was brought back to life by Cat. This supposedly killed the beast in Gabe and left him human when revived. However, in this episode Vincent flat lines, like Gabe, and is then brought back to life. Yet the beast remains in Vincent. Go figure? I do wish the writers would pay closer attention to such details. I think the difference is that Gabe died while he was in beast-mode on, so the beast was killed. Vincent was shot while he was on his human side instead. Moreover Vincent's heart didn't stop for the gun shot, but he used his power to stop his heart (like Carol did) to fool Liam... so he was in control of all the situation though he hasn't tryed yet. At least that was what I've understood I am with BeastieBoy on this one - the writers did not pay attention! Doubly so, actually. They should have shown Vincent in beast mode when he jumped off that building, because as a human he could not possibly have made that jump and survived. So they messed up showing us Vincent's face in non-beast-mode when he gets hit by the bullet and again in non-beast-mode when he hits the car. About not killing the beast with the defibrilator. Well, THAT was kinda iffy in S2 anyway. It did not work on Eddie Long at all, did not work on the redheaded stray cat after she crashed her car into the river and was paddled, they did not even try to bring back Jacob Sutter after Catherine shot him, but it DID work on Xavier when Vincent perfomed CPR. I just found it highly risky to base the whole plan on the fact that using the paddles would NOT kill the beast in Vincent. If it had left him without powers, Catherine would have been lost. Not to gripe again about the writers - which I do sometimes I know - but they have been cutting corners throughout the show. It was there in S1, but I totally forgave them, because it was still magical. Not so forgiving later on.....
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 4, 2016 17:07:38 GMT -5
Due to Vincent even potentially dying, I admit to having winced visibly, and even muted Vincent's "death" scene. So I never noticed what Mode (beast or otherwise) that he is in. He basically would have HAD to go into beast-mode before the fall, though, in order to survive at all, one would think.
Sigh. I admit that I need to re-watch Season 3. I have actually put it off and not wanted to do it, which is unheard of for past seasons (although I admit to skipping CERTAIN episodes from 1 and 2--you all can guess the ones I am talking about if you have read any of my previous posts). But I want to reconsider 313 especially for Season 4 potential since with the show being cancelled, the potential is now out there for them to find a way to "cure" Vincent so that he and Cat can have their happily ever after. Plus, there would be less likelihood for Beasties to then cry for more since there is no more "beast" in sight. (Although we all know from Gabe in Season 2 that a beast CAN be reactivated with the serum, even if originally cured.)
Since I now must re-watch Season 3 in consideration of Season 4 POTENTIAL, who is with me for re-watches? I don't relish suffering alone. PLUS, other beasties might find significance to scenes that I have missed. Thus giving me FURTHER reasons for speculation! Anyone else out there for a Season 3 rewatch??? (Actually, we COULD start with Season 1 and go straight through, given the amount of time we are likely to have to endure until they actually air Season 4!)
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Post by bbatb on Jan 5, 2016 3:13:27 GMT -5
LOL alwayscrazedbatbfan you would NOT want me on your re-watch team. Really! I am too brutal with my analysis of all the plotholes, inconsistencies, mistakes, misquotes, etc. I know that I should not be like that, because if the writers did NOT cut corners or did not ignore certain facts (like Vincent's powers which are there when needed and then suddenly not there!) no episode would ever get finished and on screen. I realise that there is also a danger in analyzing something 'to death', because every time you do a re-watch you focus too much on just that mistake you detected - actually, you are waiting for it. I can sink and lose myself so deeply into S1 that I can forget about them, but in S2 and S3 there were so many and I was not in a forgiving mood.... Anyway, why don't you start a new thread: umptieth re-watch or something like that and see who joins?
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Post by daly1423 on Jan 5, 2016 14:56:44 GMT -5
I have a little theory on the flat-linning and getting rid of the beast. The key to my theory is Catherine. She is the one who brings Gabe back. When they try and bring back Eddie Long, Gabe is the one doing it and it doesn't work. When Vincent is trying to bring back Xavier he is not having any luck UNITL Catherine touches his shoulder ( the camera cuts to her hand on his shoulder in deliberate foreshadowing IMO). I think Catherine is the key to getting rid of the beast and hopefully that will be explored in S4.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jan 5, 2016 15:05:36 GMT -5
I have a little theory on the flat-linning and getting rid of the beast. The key to my theory is Catherine. She is the one who brings Gabe back. When they try and bring back Eddie Long, Gabe is the one doing it and it doesn't work. When Vincent is trying to bring back Xavier he is not having any luck UNITL Catherine touches his shoulder ( the camera cuts to her hand on his shoulder in deliberate foreshadowing IMO). I think Catherine is the key to getting rid of the beast and hopefully that will be explored in S4. Good one! I like your theory.
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Post by pippin on Aug 24, 2016 23:24:05 GMT -5
Thought this had been posted here but not seeing it. Interesting to see the differences between what was written vs. what ended up being said.
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