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Post by bbatb on Aug 26, 2016 11:16:56 GMT -5
Heartbreaking, really. If Vincent just killed everyone in the room he'd be justified. It's really hard to watch. Thelma & Louise moment coming up I feel. Hopefully, it's fake and they live to start a new life elsewhere. I am totally FOR Vincent at least breaking these guys' bones. 'Enhanced' interrogation methods are not something I can watch without cringing - this will be so hard. These injections do not look like fake - unfortunately - looks like these DHS guys are worse than or at least on par with the criminals we have encountered so far. And Catherine in orange - they could have called this episode 'Orange is the new Beauty'. Fair is fair. Looks like they are stuffing a lot of action into this episode: they are in prison, Vincent gets tortured, they are out again in the open and meeting up at the Guild, something dramatic is happening to Heather... Wow.
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Post by joyabeast on Aug 26, 2016 12:28:18 GMT -5
Vincent should totally atleast beat those DHS guys. I don't believe in tortuing someone for information. It's just wrong. They say they know about super solider programs than they should know that Vincent is not the bad guy here.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 26, 2016 13:48:39 GMT -5
If they know about the super soldier program, I wonder what information they want from Vincent. Why are they torturing him? He is suffering and in pain, but is not beasting out. It shows how far he has come and how much control he has over his beast side. I will ONLY be able to watch this episode from behind a cushion and even then, ONLY because the promo photos show that he gets away and is with Cat again. I am looking forward to the moment alluded to by Gillian Horvath, her favourite single frame image of the whole show.
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Post by joyabeast on Aug 26, 2016 14:03:08 GMT -5
If they know about the super soldier program, I wonder what information they want from Vincent. Why are they torturing him? He is suffering and in pain, but is not beasting out. It shows how far he has come and how much control he has over his beast side. I will ONLY be able to watch this episode from behind a cushion and even then, ONLY because the promo photos show that he gets away and is with Cat again. I am looking forward to the moment alluded to by Gillian Horvath, her favourite single frame image of the whole show. Me too.
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Post by pippin on Aug 26, 2016 14:42:15 GMT -5
If they know about the super soldier program, I wonder what information they want from Vincent. Why are they torturing him? He is suffering and in pain, but is not beasting out. It shows how far he has come and how much control he has over his beast side. I will ONLY be able to watch this episode from behind a cushion and even then, ONLY because the promo photos show that he gets away and is with Cat again. I am looking forward to the moment alluded to by Gillian Horvath, her favourite single frame image of the whole show. Here's the blurb that the CW posted with the trailer: Being hunted as a beast is bad but being treated as a terrorist is worse. Beauty and the Beast returns Thursday, September 8 at 9/8c!Or maybe he's just not able to beast out or it's just more beastly inconsistencies. He goes down like a log when Hill tranqs him but Kane shoots him up 3 times and he's still rolling around grunting. He can take a punch and get thrown around by superbeast/superhuman Liam and bounce back up but some DHS agent punches him in the gut and he sounds like he's gagging up a hairball. LOL However
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Post by pippin on Aug 26, 2016 19:12:38 GMT -5
Vincent should totally atleast beat those DHS guys. I don't believe in tortuing someone for information. It's just wrong. They say they know about super solider programs than they should know that Vincent is not the bad guy here. But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist.
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Post by Jewels on Aug 26, 2016 20:04:40 GMT -5
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Post by bbatb on Aug 27, 2016 7:08:19 GMT -5
Vincent should totally atleast beat those DHS guys. I don't believe in tortuing someone for information. It's just wrong. They say they know about super solider programs than they should know that Vincent is not the bad guy here. But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist. Agree to all your points pippin , however: 1. DHS also knows about Hill having paid Graydal huge sums of money - presumably from his own account - to have Vincent killed. Catherine found this on his computer, forwarded it to Tess and it went....NOWHERE!!! 2. when they found Hill's body, he was holding a gun that has been discharged and they found 4 empty vials of synthetic adrenalin as well as chains - evidence that he was torturing somebody and that he shot at somebody. 3. There were no witnesses (except Catherine) that Vincent killed Hill - how did he go from 'person of interest' to 'murderer of Hill'. Well, it seems that Catherine gave it away when she admitted that he did in in self-defense. (not absolutely sure about this point - I will have to rewatch from 408 on how they arrived at Vincent being Hill's murderer) 4. Why did Catherine not insist that they check this phony file that Hill had on Vincent calling him out at having PTSD? Which doctor actually checked Vincent and came up with THAT conclusion? This would have been so easy to debunk. So, how can they continue to call Hill 'one of their own'? He looks suspicious like hell.
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Post by pippin on Aug 28, 2016 8:17:59 GMT -5
But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist. Agree to all your points pippin , however: 1. DHS also knows about Hill having paid Graydal huge sums of money - presumably from his own account - to have Vincent killed. Catherine found this on his computer, forwarded it to Tess and it went....NOWHERE!!! 2. when they found Hill's body, he was holding a gun that has been discharged and they found 4 empty vials of synthetic adrenalin as well as chains - evidence that he was torturing somebody and that he shot at somebody. 3. There were no witnesses (except Catherine) that Vincent killed Hill - how did he go from 'person of interest' to 'murderer of Hill'. Well, it seems that Catherine gave it away when she admitted that he did in in self-defense. (not absolutely sure about this point - I will have to rewatch from 408 on how they arrived at Vincent being Hill's murderer) 4. Why did Catherine not insist that they check this phony file that Hill had on Vincent calling him out at having PTSD? Which doctor actually checked Vincent and came up with THAT conclusion? This would have been so easy to debunk. So, how can they continue to call Hill 'one of their own'? He looks suspicious like hell. 1. DHS also knows about Hill having paid Graydal huge sums of money - presumably from his own account - to have Vincent killed. Catherine found this on his computer, forwarded it to Tess and it went....NOWHERE!!!
I don't think at this point DHS knows that Hill paid Graydal to have Vincent killed. Cat told Grace that they didn't have proof that Hill had hired Graydal hitmen to take Vincent out. In 407 when V asked Cat if she had proof about Hill, she said no but she had a lead and that Tess had helped her figure out that Hill had wired two payments to Graydal. While it would seem logical that hiring hitmen wouldn't be cheap, I don't think anyone said that it was "huge sums of money" and the wire transfers probably didn't come with a description saying it was for the killing of Vincent Keller nor would Graydal, as Vincent pointed out, just admit to providing hitmen for hire. Since the legitimate side of Graydal's business is "security" (as JT says, think Blackwater) and Hill and his family had been attacked in their home, the payments could just look like they were for protective security for his family. And since Graydal hadn't actually succeeded in killing Vincent yet, Hill probably hadn't paid them the full amount. But, since DHS now has Braxton's files and he did confess to hiring fugitives and hitmen, maybe once they are able to unlock all of his files, they will find proof about why Hill really paid Graydal. 2. when they found Hill's body, he was holding a gun that has been discharged and they found 4 empty vials of synthetic adrenalin as well as chains - evidence that he was torturing somebody and that he shot at somebody. Well if you are DHS, does anything in the Hill scene -- chains, vials -- look that different from what they currently have going on in the trailer? Maybe that is what their normal torture, excuse me, "enhanced interrogation" of terrorists looks like. So in their scenario, Hill is "interrogating" the mentally unstable beastly super soldier who breaks free and kills him. Naturally Hill discharged his weapon trying to defend himself. Wasn't that the wacky, convoluted situation Hill was setting up, except he was supposed to kill Vincent instead. 3. There were no witnesses (except Catherine) that Vincent killed Hill - how did he go from 'person of interest' to 'murderer of Hill'. Well, it seems that Catherine gave it away when she admitted that he did in in self-defense. (not absolutely sure about this point - I will have to rewatch from 408 on how they arrived at Vincent being Hill's murderer)
407 is the one to rewatch. I don't think the dialog changed much from what you originally transcribed This agent Morgan is obviously interviewing/interrogating Catherine and asking for Vincent's whereabouts. Catherine - I have not heard from him or seen him since... Morgan - since he murdered Deputy Secretary Hill.. Catherine - it was self defense - Hill set him up In 406, Vincent was already wanted for bombing the military base, and by the time Morgan arrives in 407, he'd already concluded that Vincent murdered Hill. Presumably Vincent's finger prints and DNA were at the crime scene, but you would think that DHS would have found Vincent's corrupted DNA along with beastly Vincent's hand/clawprint around Hill's neck and start to raise some questions. This made me think of something. Could they have tried pinning everything on "The Beast" and not Vincent Keller? Could they have tried creating two separate beings like Clark Kent and Superman. 4. Why did Catherine not insist that they check this phony file that Hill had on Vincent calling him out at having PTSD? Which doctor actually checked Vincent and came up with THAT conclusion? This would have been so easy to debunk. Assuming the doctor was real, why would he change his story and implicate himself. Plus in 407, Vincent tells Cat to play along with the PTSD thing so she can get access to Hill's files V:Okay, I know a way to fix that, okay, but you got to get back inside DHS to make it happen. C:They are never going to trust me, Vincent. V:They will if you throw me under the bus. C:What? V:Just hear me out, okay? I had a lot of time to think about this. You play into their narrative. You say you didn't realize how bad my PTSD had gotten. You say you didn't realize how crazed I had become. C: I can't do that. V: Catherine, you got to, okay? You got to say, you got to do anything you can to get back inside before they get me. Otherwise... otherwise, we don't stand a chance.
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Post by pippin on Aug 28, 2016 10:37:25 GMT -5
Heartbreaking, really. If Vincent just killed everyone in the room he'd be justified. It's really hard to watch. Thelma & Louise moment coming up I feel. Hopefully, it's fake and they live to start a new life elsewhere. From the first season, I thought one of the things this show suffered from was a lack of an underlining theme. With a show called Beauty and the Beast, I thought it could be the redemptive power of love. They had a great set up -- a hotheaded doctor, instead of volunteering to saves lives, is so full of rage after the deaths of his brothers that he enlists as a soldier and is "cursed" by being turned into a beast. As he falls in love with the beauty, he would stop killing and the beauty would fall in love with him, and as all his anger and fear dissipated, he would no longer have the things within him that fueled the beastly side and he would be "cured." Sometimes in season 3, I thought they were hinting at that when Cat said that "for some reason" Vincent hadn't been able to beast out and Liam was taunting him with becoming domesticated or something. Obviously, they didn't go that route, but reading reactions like yours got me thinking that maybe the writers do have some underlining message this season. Maybe they are trying to use Vincent as some kind of metaphor or they are trying to show people the dangers of torture in world where some high profile public figures are actively promoting torturing terror suspects and the killing of their families. This season, since Vincent is now being accused of being a terrorist, what if Vincent is a metaphor for Muslims?
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Post by bbatb on Aug 29, 2016 11:16:58 GMT -5
Well pippin you 'debunked' MY theories mostly and we could discuss plotholes and dialogues till the cows come home, but since it was all finished over a year ago - it won't change ANYTHING. They must find some reason to release both Vincent and Catherine in 412, so let's just wait for that. I have just watched 406, since it ran on my English channel and I will mosey on over there to make a few observations, since it is a quiet week.
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Post by bbatb on Aug 29, 2016 11:29:35 GMT -5
Heartbreaking, really. If Vincent just killed everyone in the room he'd be justified. It's really hard to watch. Thelma & Louise moment coming up I feel. Hopefully, it's fake and they live to start a new life elsewhere. From the first season, I thought one of the things this show suffered from was a lack of an underlining theme. With a show called Beauty and the Beast, I thought it could be the redemptive power of love. They had a great set up -- a hotheaded doctor, instead of volunteering to saves lives, is so full of rage after the deaths of his brothers that he enlists as a soldier and is "cursed" by being turned into a beast. As he falls in love with the beauty, he would stop killing and the beauty would fall in love with him, and as all his anger and fear dissipated, he would no longer have the things within him that fueled the beastly side and he would be "cured." Sometimes in season 3, I thought they were hinting at that when Cat said that "for some reason" Vincent hadn't been able to beast out and Liam was taunting him with becoming domesticated or something. Obviously, they didn't go that route, but reading reactions like yours got me thinking that maybe the writers do have some underlining message this season. Maybe they are trying to use Vincent as some kind of metaphor or they are trying to show people the dangers of torture in world where some high profile public figures are actively promoting torturing terror suspects and the killing of their families. This season, since Vincent is now being accused of being a terrorist, what if Vincent is a metaphor for Muslims?I guess nobody really wants to discuss THAT can of worms. I won't go there either, because we are having a lot of problems with refugees of that group in my country and there are a lot of hard feelings due to many distressing incidents. Our welcoming attitude has turned the tide into an 'enough is enough' stance. However, - and we have discussed this before in the Sensitive Spoiler Section - I am against these 'enhanced' interrogation methods. They are really a disguise for torture and it is very hard to control where the lines are drawn and what is a step too far.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 29, 2016 15:57:00 GMT -5
Vincent should totally at least beat those DHS guys. I don't believe in torturing someone for information. It's just wrong. They say they know about super solider programs than they should know that Vincent is not the bad guy here. But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like Vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist. Well, Pippin, when you put it like that.... Actually, I don't think Zach was a bad guy. He wasn't when Vincent first knew him but I think that he was a tool for the writers to show what Vincent could have turned into if he had allowed himself to be eaten up with anger and revenge and hadn't had someone to help him keep his humanity (obviously JT, and later, Cat). Zach just spent too much time brooding on his own and became unhinged, looking for someone to blame for his situation. He killed the woman he loved then blamed Vincent for stealing her from him and ruining his life, because Muirfield were gone so he had no other outlet for his hatred.
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Post by pippin on Sept 8, 2016 1:01:06 GMT -5
But just cuz they know about the super soldier program, wouldn't mean that they know Vincent isn't the bad guy. Zach was part of the super soldier program, and he was a bad guy. I don't think there's been another beast on the show who wasn't shown to be a psycho killer. I guess Tori was more like Vincent in that she wasn't doing evil things and only killed people when her beastly side took over, but all the rest. So if DHS knows about the beastly super soldiers who slaughtered people in Afghanistan and all they know about Vincent is that he killed Hill, set off a bomb on the military base, was doing bad things for Graydal, picked up a bag of explosives, was trying to flee the country and had previously been a fugitive accused of killing a business tycoon and dated the late tycoon's daughter who ended up dead . . . they probably feel pretty certain Vincent is some kind of unhinged domestic terrorist. Well, Pippin, when you put it like that.... Actually, I don't think Zach was a bad guy. He wasn't when Vincent first knew him but I think that he was a tool for the writers to show what Vincent could have turned into if he had allowed himself to be eaten up with anger and revenge and hadn't had someone to help him keep his humanity (obviously JT, and later, Cat). Zach just spent too much time brooding on his own and became unhinged, looking for someone to blame for his situation. He killed the woman he loved then blamed Vincent for stealing her from him and ruining his life, because Muirfield were gone so he had no other outlet for his hatred. I was thinking bad guy in terms of once he was turned into a beast. Supposedly, they all went nuts in Afghanistan and started killing people, even Vincent. According to Partners in Crime, Vincent even killed "innocent" people there. Zach tracked down Gabriella and killed her in 2005, so while the writers may have wanted to show what Vincent might have become without love in his life, it wasn't like Zach only turned into a crazy killer after a decade of being alone and Muirfield was out of the picture. I think his character did play into the bigger storyline of the first half of season 2 that seemingly being a beast = bad so they could break up VinCat and set up Cat's being able to forgive Gabe's previous beastly behavior.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Sept 8, 2016 11:37:27 GMT -5
Well, Pippin, when you put it like that.... Actually, I don't think Zach was a bad guy. He wasn't when Vincent first knew him but I think that he was a tool for the writers to show what Vincent could have turned into if he had allowed himself to be eaten up with anger and revenge and hadn't had someone to help him keep his humanity (obviously JT, and later, Cat). Zach just spent too much time brooding on his own and became unhinged, looking for someone to blame for his situation. He killed the woman he loved then blamed Vincent for stealing her from him and ruining his life, because Muirfield were gone so he had no other outlet for his hatred. I was thinking bad guy in terms of once he was turned into a beast. Supposedly, they all went nuts in Afghanistan and started killing people, even Vincent. According to Partners in Crime, Vincent even killed "innocent" people there. Zach tracked down Gabriella and killed her in 2005, so while the writers may have wanted to show what Vincent might have become without love in his life, it wasn't like Zach only turned into a crazy killer after a decade of being alone and Muirfield was out of the picture. I think his character did play into the bigger storyline of the first half of season 2 that seemingly being a beast = bad so they could break up VinCat and set up Cat's being able to forgive Gabe's previous beastly behavior. Absolutely, I had forgotten that scene between Cat & Tess, when Tess asks Cat if Vincent has ever hurt anyone innocent and she replies 'Not since Afghanistan, No!!' Of course we are getting into very murky waters about what is 'acceptable' in war, but I seem to remember a Muirfield agent mentioning Vincent's unit wiping out a whole village which would have meant women and children too (that's if he was telling Cat the truth, of course). Maybe it's the romantic in me that believes that Vincent, being the hero in this show, always had more control than the others or that he found a level of control quicker than the others would have. After all, his CO spared Vincent because he could see that there was still good in him. How did he know this? He must have observed Vincent's actions during this time and seen that he was not as bad as the others. I agree that Zach was another device to show us beasts only getting worse and Vincent's behaviour similarly changes for the better when he has prolonged contact with Cat and it worsened when he either couldn't remember her or they broke up. This links in nicely with the theme of this season that wherever they are, they have to be together. Vincent can't go and leave Cat behind because he knows that without her, he could lapse back into the beast that he was in Afghanistan and the one we saw at the very beginning and middle of Season 2. Cat loves him and wouldn't allow him to suffer that fate and she loves him because he is a good person who wants to save people. He has earned her love. Gabe was the anomaly because even though he was freed from the beast within, and he perhaps tried to be a good person and save people, it was NOT in his nature so he ended up being as bad as he was when he was a beast, killing someone to hide a murder of someone else, planning to kill Vincent to save his own skin and generally scheming to get what he wants. These are depths Vincent has never stooped to, even though he IS a beast.
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