Totally unreal

[logic]

I think that the story would also be nice if it were not for so many unreal things, and I do not talk of the beasts: that would be obvious, since it's a fantasy, but I talk of feelings and psychological dynamics.
The event which is absolutely the most far-fetched is when she shoots him "because it is the right thing."
Let's see why it is totally not plausible, because it would never really happen:

1-With a love story as intense as the one described, in fact, she would never have shot him under any circumstances

2-If she really had to shoot him to stop him from committing an injustice, there are the legs, the arms, and maybe the shoulders, but certainly not vital points where he would have risked death

3-The reason that he would lose his humanity by killing that monster of a man is totally hypocritical, since he had already killed a lot of people, all bad (but perhaps never as her father), and until that moment he has been always justified

4-It cannot be some sense of filial love for a man whom she does not know, because you love who grows you, those around you

5-She was so much uneasy for her mother, she felt guilty towards him for what her mother had done, when the father has done a thousand times worse, he was such a horror, that a defense to the tune of "justice" is completely untenable

[anapi -season3baby :)]

Nov 18, 2014 11:03:53 GMT -5 logic said:

I think that the story would also be nice if it were not for so many unreal things, and I do not talk of the beasts: that would be obvious, since it's a fantasy, but I talk of feelings and psychological dynamics.
The event which is absolutely the most far-fetched is when she shoots him "because it is the right thing."
Let's see why it is totally not plausible, because it would never really happen:

1-With a love story as intense as the one described, in fact, she would never have shot him under any circumstances

2-If she really had to shoot him to stop him from committing an injustice, there are the legs, the arms, and maybe the shoulders, but certainly not vital points where he would have risked death

3-The reason that he would lose his humanity by killing that monster of a man is totally hypocritical, since he had already killed a lot of people, all bad (but perhaps never as her father), and until that moment he has been always justified

4-It cannot be some sense of filial love for a man whom she does not know, because you love who grows you, those around you

5-She was so much uneasy for her mother, she felt guilty towards him for what her mother had done, when the father has done a thousand times worse, he was such a horror, that a defense to the tune of "justice" is completely untenable

i can understand how she could have acted in the wrong way and shot him at the time but it was definitely not the right thing to do. it was also not right to carry on about it being the right thing to do in episode 9 and not feeling bad about it , so yeah totally get your point

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

I will just say this. Had Cat shot Vincent in the arm or leg, it would hardly have fazed Vincent. With his beastly abilities and strength, plus the surge of adrenaline going through him, anything less than a potential kill shot would have failed to stop Vincent. If he had just been shot in the arm, he could have still killed Reynolds before even having to think about getting medical help, which he most likely could have just handled on his own. So if Cat truly wanted to prevent Vincent from killing Reynolds, she HAD to go for a potentially lethal shot that would require Vincent to get help IMMEDIATELY.

And there IS a difference in the killing of Reynolds for Vincent. At least with all the other Beast-killings, these were truly bad individuals that HAD taken life already and would continue to do so. ALSO, these individuals could not have been simply imprisoned like normal people. A jury would have convicted these people to death for their actions of taking life. And every last one of these people were truly crazy.

Furthermore, Vincent WAS acting under the color of the law while engaging in his missions. At the time of each Beast killing, he was legitimately (at least, as far as he was concerned) taking ORDERS from a government official. Our own CIA operatives are ordered to commit assassinations of individuals that are brutally taking lives/committing war crimes in other countries but that we can't get jurisdiction or can't stop through the traditional system. Thus, had Vincent actually gone to trial, the fact that he was under orders from an operative of the government at the time should have been a defense, arguably.

The difference in killing Reynolds would have been that Vincent chose to kill him out of revenge, not out of a desire to help save others from Reynolds. Because at this point, with the exception of Vincent, the only people that Reynolds had singled out to be killed were people that needed to be stopped and could not have been saved.  

Yes, Reynolds crossed a line in trying to kill Vincent. This action was not to save the public, even though Reynolds tried to present the killing in this light. Reynolds just wanted to eliminate any ties that would lead the killings back to him, as people would have wanted to know about the government links to Muirfield, which had crossed the line again and again.

Frankly, I do think that Vincent would have been justified in killing Reynolds, had Cat not found a way to bring him to justice. HOWEVER, what makes it wrong for Vincent is that it truly would have cost his humanity and the remaining goodness that he had. The television shows "Buffy," "Angel" and many others deal with the fact that once someone deliberately takes a life out of revenge or anger, it is hard to come back from it. And Vincent was particularly at risk:  I mean, look how far downwards he continues to spiral out of this action. Vincent was a doctor and had taken an OATH as part of his profession to preserve life at all costs. So doing this deliberate act, without orders, would have put Vincent on a path from which he most likely could not be redeemed.

And no matter what, Reynolds WAS Cat's birth father. And Vincent certainly knew that Cat has been driven over the past decade to find out answers and information about her past, that of her mother, and of Muirfield. Cat struggles to understand it all, and killing Reynolds would have proven strategically disastrous, as we all know that Reynolds still has information and contacts that will ultimately prove necessary to Cat AND Vincent in Season 3 (or at least that is my theory, anyways).

Now that I have finished arguing the above, I will still admit that I found the whole storyline to be TOTALLY UNREAL as well. I mean, why did they HAVE to go there? Why make any of the characters seek to the level of selfishness and pettiness and just all around badness like they did in Season 2?

Here is why else I found it Totally Unreal. It is the whole PREMISE behind the modern-day fairy tale of Beauty and the Beast. There are certain RULES that you expect to be followed. They are as follows:

1. The Beast outwardly looks bad or has characteristics/abilities that sets him apart from society so that he has to hide. 

2. Having to hide has made a resentful beast, even though his inward soul is good with a heart of gold.

3. Beast encounters Beauty and saves her.

4. Beauty first sees Beast in all his beastliness, including in appearance.

5. Despite seeing the Beast, Beauty knows automatically that he is good. She IMMEDIATELY sees past the beastly visage into the soul behind the eyes. She is not really afraid of him and in fact, is drawn to him immediately.

6. There is the Recognition of Souls, or better said as Falling in Love at First Sight.

7. Beauty and the Beast are thrown together in such a way that they have to work together and get to know one another.

8. As a result of their working together, Beauty and the Beast both realize and ultimately consummate the love that they have actually felt from the first moment forwards.

9. Beauty's love Transforms the Beast. In the story, he usually is outwardly transformed to reflect the good person beneath the visage, and they live Happily Ever After.

So based on the above rules, you don't have your Beast failing to recognize Beauty for who she is and being able to fight the pull between them. They are supposed to make each other better, simply by being around one another. No matter the odds. So Season 2 just seemed to turn all that on its head. Granted, the writers always intended Vincent to ultimately recognize and appreciate Cat's goodness and strength of character and wish to be the type of man she could love. That need and pull then causes him to transform, etc. and follow the above rules. But I just felt I had my Fairy Tale made unrecognizable by what they did to both Beauty and Beast this season.

Sigh. It is what it is. We Beasties will never be reconciled to it, no matter what arguments we give. I liked the VinCat I got in the end, so I am just happy to look forward to Season 3 as I will never fully be able to be comfortable with a lot of the underlying themes that seemed present in Season 2. 

[raniamahd]

 alwayscrazedbatbfan , you know Victoria i always like to read your analysis of the events and to see things from your perspective whether i agree with you or disagree !
but i have to disagree with you about : it had to be a deadly shot to stop Vincent from killing Reynolds ! because the shock in Vincent's face told me otherwise ? he was shocked to death with a horrible feeling of betrayal when she did it ! and he would had the same reaction wherever she shoot him ! that shock would at least took a minute from him to recover and try any kind of action , and she only needed that minute till the police car came to the scene !
so no she had other option than shooting for kill and i think her emotional state effected her judgment ? she didn't do this just because that is the right thing or because she wanted to save V' s humanity but also because in her subconscious she felt betrayal too because Vincent didn't choose her , choose them again ! and she had the right to be mad with him because of this but not the right to hide behind her badge and kill him for that !
as Ana said she kept acting like it wasn't a big deal in ep 9 ?! what if her bullet killed him ? how could she live with herself in that case ? would she still justify her action saying i did the right thing and i would kill him again if i went back in time ? and move on with her life with Gabe and live happily ever after with him and consider killing Vincent just a side damage ?!

but i agree that V was justified in wanting to kill Reynolds and i see R much worse than the beasts he order V to kill ! because who is worse than a monster ? the one who create that monster or help creating it in the first place !
and do i have to mention that putting Reynolds in jail didn't stop him from his schemes and he manage to set V up for Windsor's murder from behind bars ? so the system didn't succeed in dealing with him or save other people out there from him after all ?!
but yet that was not enough to be acceptable for Vincent to kill him in that moments or to apply justice in his own hand ! he was wrong and acted with his emotion not with his brain just like what Cat did when she shoot him in his gut !
 and that is my guts and my humble opinion which could be right or wrong because its just a personal opinion and i am only human and all human being do mistakes and could be wrong   !        

[logic]

I must say that all these analysis are very interesting and deep... yes, the matter is very articulated... but I really do feel that Cat's act is strongly unreal.
Let me see the points again:
1-This point stays… how deep is their love? Very very deep, therefore her act looks really really unreal.
2-Yes, I’ve already thought about the observation on the need of a deadly hurt to stop his force, but it is also valuable the opinion that the shock to be shot by her would have stopped him because of the huge delusion. Moreover, very very interesting is the theory of her real reasons to shoot him.
3-Yes, in the second season he kills beasts, BUT in the first one he kills lot of people, not beasts, and in many cases he could have avoided to kill them, in many cases he could have simply stunned them to save people instead of savaging them because he was very angry (especially when she was in danger). I feel that also at this level, in those circumstances, he could have behaved differently with a little more of effort: that’s the why I think that the reason carried on by her for “the right thing” is actually hypocritical.
4- The filial feeling can’t exist at this level, therefore she hadn’t really decided between them… this matter is completely unreal as a possible reason
5-Well, her father is more beast than a beast… and such a man, such a heart would have been always a very dangerous guy, not only for the beasts (in fact all those boys and girls weren’t beasts before…). He is a huge monster and a danger for all the human being
Let me finally add that she, in any case, contradicts herself, since she keeps loving him very strongly, although "he would have lost his humanity" (the fact is that he lost nothing!).

[logic]

Well, maybe I had forgotten to mention the strongest proof of how the “right thing” of the shot is hypocritical: it’s just at the beginning of the episode “Kidnapped” when Cat justifies Vincent while talking to Tess and Gabe about the murder of Li Zhao, for not only once but twice, saying that it was a pure and simple revenge (but not in a negative meaning, instead as a justification for the violence of the killing) and saying also that the victim was the Dart Fener of Muirfield, meaning this way that he merited to die… more than this… the shot is really absolutely out of reality, a big error in the plot.
Maybe is there someone who doesn't think Mr Reynolds would merit the death as Li Zhao?
It's not a defence of the justice DIY, it's the pointing out of the hypocrisy: if Mr Reynolds merits a right process, also Mr Zhao would have merited a right process. Like anyone.

[raniamahd]

Nov 19, 2014 14:02:34 GMT -5 logic said:

Well, maybe I had forgotten to mention the strongest proof of how the “right thing” of the shot is hypocritical: it’s just at the beginning of the episode “Kidnapped” when Cat justifies Vincent while talking to Tess and Gabe about the murder of Li Zhao, for not only once but twice, saying that it was a pure and simple revenge (but not in a negative meaning, instead as a justification for the violence of the killing) and saying also that the victim was the Dart Fener of Muirfield, meaning this way that he merited to die… more than this… the shot is really absolutely out of reality, a big error in the plot.
Maybe is there someone who doesn't think Mr Reynolds would merit the death as Li Zhao?
It's not a defence of the justice DIY, it's the pointing out of the hypocrisy: if Mr Reynolds merits a right process, also Mr Zhao would have merited a right process. Like anyone.

i may add here when she let Patric escaped from the police in episode 10 , yes he was nice and agreed with his brother because he is the only family he got but at the end of the day he was his crimes partner and any court would convict him , so how is that consider acting by the book and not being the judge and the jury ?! you know apply the justice on your own hands not just means punish a criminal away from the system but also means to free a suspect/criminal and announced him innocent away from the system too !
so yes i am 100% convinced that her keep talking about doing the right thing was totally hypocrite !
just like when Gabe hunted Vincent after Cat dumped him and kept saying he was applying the law because no one is above the law ?! even after he killed an innocent witness to cover his crime !
again i see that Cat was always affected by her emotions in her judgment and that is normal and totally human , judges , lawyers , police officers and the whole people work in justice system are human and have emotions too that is why there are rules /law against them working in cases they are emotionally involved in them by any way !
and that is why Cat wasn't qualified at all to handle V's case with her father because she was involved with both sides of the case and if she really just wanted to do the right thing and went by the book than she should step aside and let Tess or even Gabe arrest Reynolds and handle V instead of her ! but as she didn't and let her emotion and her anger and sense of betrayal lead her so the least she could do is to admit it and spare us from that nonsense speech about doing the right thing and going by the book and the difference between human and beasts that she kept repeated like a parrot for 6 episodes !

[logic]

That’s really incredible… more I watch the series again and more I find contradictions stressing how the famous shot is not plausible…
Well, only one possible difference was left between the murder of Zhao and the murder of Reynolds, from Cat’s point of view: she might have thought that in the first case the killing was due to an order to a soldier while in the second case it was a clear revenge.
But it’s not this way: again in “Kidnapped” she says to understand why he killed Zhao and that she doesn't want to arrest him (she is sympathetic towards his sense of revenge because of the horror of the bad man): just the same situation of the killing of Reynolds apart from the end… so... really a huge error in the narration.

[anapi -season3baby :)]

i enjoy reading all your points of view and agree with what u guys are saying
however, as rania i believe also said we are human and a lot of things we do are based on impulse, feelings etc rather than rationality or consistency
i also think we do try to rationalise our often irrational and impulsive actions because this is what we do as human - easier than admitting to our mistakes, fears, impulses etc
so i would not necessarily say there is a huge error in the narration as such but that Cat during those episodes was somewhat messed up (as was Vincent), confused, exhausted, disappointed, not thinking clearly...

[logic]

To be honest… I’m even tired… there are too many nonsenses…
In “Hot Head”, while trying to enjoy her spare time, Cat says that Vincent kills only beasts or very very bad men, again, with the intention to justify him… and also she kills easily the pyromaniac beast just because he said ” that ugly word” at her stop order… let us talk about the trigger-happy…
It’s quite ridiculous… what a pity…
As I said, I find that the theory of her jealousy and disappointment can also have a meaning: the problem is that the narration seems not to give to Cat’s shot this reason. Anyway, actually I think that it would be a forcing considering this a plausible reason for the shot, since she was always worried about his safety at any of his breath, at any small future possible danger for him, and so on…
However, the real problem is that the narration insists on the “right thing” as if the public must accept exactly this reason as the actual reason why she shot Vincent.

[logic]

Really credible...
Cat's real parents both have destroyed Vincent's life, and Cat completes the picture by shooting him.
What about a scientist who does experiments on boys and girls without all the prior check about the consequences? This is the mother.
About the father we've said enough...
Vincent, the monster, instead, renounces to his happiness and also his safety in order to keep safe all people he cares, starting from Cat (that otherwise would have been denounced by her father), and JT and Tess and also Gabe... (dialogue between Bob and Vincent in the episode of the dinner).
More and more ridiculous... Where will we arrive? I can't guess it.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

I think that is the thing with BATB. We as fans quarrel over things that the characters themselves have considered and chosen to leave in the past. I often find myself defending what I myself found disgusting and depressing. That said, I still love VinCat BECAUSE they choose love over hate. They refuse to be defined by their worst moments. And when they do fail, they struggle to be the best version of themselves and try to do the right thing and help others in the future, thus learning from their abysmal past.

Vincent mentions that he made mistakes, and Cat corrects him by admitting in her conversation with Vincent in 215 that they both made mistakes. Neither goes into details. However, I will say that if you look at it from Vincent's perspective, HE was glad that Cat had prevented him from killing Reynolds much later on after he had time to think through his actions. And Vincent chose to accept Cat's apology in 211 for the shooting and put it behind them. In Episode 212 after Tori has died, it hits Vincent full-on that the death might could have been avoided had he made different choices. And he acknowledged that he had made the wrong choice and chosen the wrong path. And Cat admits that she questions how she could be losing her own humanity after shooting the beast that Sam had created in 214. It is one of those issues where you have to think that BATB fans are quarrelling over something that the characters themselves have addressed and chosen to put behind them.

The fact is that Vincent and Catherine were both able to discuss with one another the fact that each ran the risk of losing his or her humanity based on the choices that each made at the time. And both have regrets and acknowledge that mistakes were made. And both turn towards one another for facing future similar obstacles. Both move beyond the assigning of blame.

I think it says something for BOTH of Vincent and Catherine's characters that they choose to look towards their future rather than their pasts. And each continues to wrestle with doing the right thing. We have to face the fact that as you grow and develop as a person, your OWN definition of right and wrong often changes. Both Vincent and Catherine have been dealing with decidedly gray areas for a while now. They have chosen to approach these things together. Because they love each other. And for VinCat, that means forgiving and forgetting.

And Vincent no longer blames Cat for her parents' actions, which Cat had NO CONTROL over. I certainly wouldn't want to be blamed for my parents' mistakes. Cat loves her mother, but she remains conflicted about her mother's actions. In fact, Vincent is the one to defend Vanessa multiple times during Season 1. Vanessa did seem to try to shield the victims and get people out of harm's way, but at the same time, she never left Muirfield until the very end. Which resulted in them killing her. Vanessa clearly had chosen to remain within the system of Muirfield for as long as she did in the hopes of ameliorating the worst of their actions and to bring a suitable purpose for the creation of beasts (defending the country and protecting innocents like her daughters--she told Vincent in Season 1 flashback that that was her purpose).

And Cat is now slowly but surely building a relationship with her father. And as a result of Cat's presentation of Vincent to her father, Reynolds even tried to help by episode 222. So you DO see how love seems to conquer hate in the end. And Vincent even wants Cat to have that relationship, as he lists Cat's father as one of those to PROTECT from Gabe. 

So the point we are supposed to get from Season 2 is that one should continuously wrestle with one's decisions and try to do the right thing even if that doesn't always lead to doing the right thing. One's Journey means that one tries to better oneself and acknowledge AND MOVE PAST one's mistakes. Which VinCat choose to do together. And I can live with that message. I can live with two flawed and tortured individuals that survive the worst kind of trauma choosing to move forward together AND choosing to try to make the world a better place then they found it. It is not that we make mistakes BUT how we choose to emerge and learn from those mistakes that ultimately matters. And Cat and Vincent have tried to redeem themselves by helping others.

So I don't need to concentrate overly much over their worst moments. (That said, I DID end up concentrating way too much on those bad moments. But let's face it, the Bad Moments in Season 2 were REALLY BAD. So of course fans end up being hung up on them far more than the characters themselves.) Both VinCat come to see that they made mistakes and vow to move on. So hopefully, we as fans can also move forward. 

I admit that I would have liked to have seen far more scenes of healing then I did. But hopefully, we will get that in Season 3. And it is supposed to be a powerful message that LOVE conquers all, even being shot.   

[logic]

I think all these analyses, interpretations, observations could be valid and correct in some way.
I just say that the shot is out of reality. It would never happened in reality... let's clarify: the news are full of "loving" partners killing each other... but a love which is described as UNCONDITIONED can't match with such event. It is not explainable, not by feelings, nor by psychology, nor by logic.
The narrator had to decide: or the love is a banal common love (and then the shot is plausible) or the love is absolute (and the shot is not plausible).
Instead, the narration shows an unconditioned love...with a shot.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

Logic,

I guess it all depends on one's definition of Unconditional Love AND when that definition can attach to VinCat. I mean, with the radical change in Vincent's situation (amnesia, having been reprogrammed), he wasn't the person we had last seen at the end of Season 1. So you are basically starting over with the VinCat relationship. My argument is that the people we know and love did not begin to come back to themselves or one another prior to episode 211, which is well after the shooting. I certainly don't consider anything that happened in 210 or before as showing an "epic" or unconditional love between VinCat. I mean, the episode "Liar, Liar" was all about the lack of trust between VinCat and the conditions that each put on the relationship. At times, they barely even liked each other and never really trusted one another until Vincent had his memories back AND could remember what his own morals and values had been (and whether he wanted to keep said values).

In reality, what it comes down to for me, at any rate, is that neither Vincent OR Catherine was the person that we had seen on our screen in Season 1 that had fallen in love. Vincent's mind was erased, and he was reprogrammed to kill with little to no remorse. Vincent starts becoming something closer to himself before the whole "handler" issue blows up (literally).  It is extreme circumstances that, as anyone can see, would not occur in real life. This is a fantasy/sci-fi show, after all. However, in the fantasy realm, the extremely implausible is what often happens. In real life, no one has a true "beast" side that was created by a body and mind-altering serum, so using real-life analysis of what someone should or could accept from one's partner just doesn't really work. I mean, Cat has to struggle with getting to know and accept a version of Vincent that views his beast side in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT manner from the way he did in Season 1. And Cat sees just what Vincent's lack of morality and beasting out is costing her to the point that she is overwhelmed and resentful, something Cat has never been in the past. But again, Cat was in a bad place as well as Vincent. And her previous return on her efforts had been the love and trust between the two of them. But that was gone. So for Cat, she was getting almost twice as much of the burden (with Vincent going out on killing missions) with none of the redeeming graces (epic love and saving people). So no wonder neither character was in a good place.

For the first almost half of Season 2, Vincent is simply not the person that Cat fell in love with. And Cat has been brought to the brink by trauma and all that she has had to handle over the last several months as well. So while Vincent has a connection with Cat that he wants to build upon, they are SO uneasy around one another that I hesitate to really call it love, at that point. And there CANNOT be love without TRUST, which VinCat had been tiptoeing around for the first past of Season 2. And Vincent AND Catherine never really trust each other fully in Season 2, especially after the shooting. It really takes Vincent fully recovering most or all of his memories AND remembering what it felt like to save people that causes his trust to ultimately be restored in Catherine. Because he remembers what HE values in humanity AND remembers that Cat shares those values. And when Catherine sees Vincent potentially sacrifice his beasthood being revealed and loss of the necklace, all in order to save lives, her TRUST in Vincent is also restored. So then they are FINALLY the two people that COULD be in love. So they decide to move forward from there.

So arguably, before the shooting incident, VinCat might have technically considered themselves to be a couple, but they clearly had issues. At that point, I certainly would NOT have defined them as "epic" or their love as "unconditional." The love that was previously there came from memories rather than an actual love built on time, actions and tenderness. They were in some weird place that was NOT the epic love from season 1. Both Vincent and Catherine of the first half of Season 2 have unrealistic expectations of what their relationship should look like, and neither really trust one another and come from a real selfish place individually, due to all that has happened to each one of them. It took the other things happening for them to begin to come back to themselves individually so that they could thereafter come back together as a couple. 

So from my assessment and analysis, the VinCat before Episode 216 certainly was not an unending love without question or contradiction. You never even heard the two SAY "I love you" because it just wasn't true before 216. The two of them were having to learn one another all over again and decide to commit to one another. From 216 forwards, Unconditional Love and Epic love should attach, as you have a couple moving forward that is committed to one another. And they prove that unconditional and epic love thereafter, in my opinion. Hope that makes sense. It is why I can still see VinCat as epic. Post episode 216, Cat never would have been able to shoot Vincent. But Vincent would never, post 216, have put Cat in a position to have to shoot him. So I define Unconditional Love based on when you first actually SEE it and Acknowledge it to be Epic Love.  

[raniamahd]

logic thanks for the thread , it made a good discussion and had its variety perspectives too , hope to see more of your opinions in the forum
and speaking of your user name just remember that :
love is the most illogical / unreasonable thing in the whole world ! some time it is even a pure craziness !
and that is its magnificence imho