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Post by BeastieBoy on Oct 16, 2014 17:14:04 GMT -5
The original press clips for Season 1 said that Catherine was 19 years old when her mother was gunned down in front of her and Vincent saved her. That means she was 19 years old at some point in 2003. So Catherine would be 29 in 2013 and turn age 30 sometime in 2014. I agree that having her 10 year reunion in 2013 should make her 28 because you are almost always 18 years old when you graduate. HOWEVER, at least in America, there is usually a cut-off date if the child is born late in the year. And parents are given a choice if they want to hold their child back if the child would be the youngest in the class. So maybe Catherine was born so late in the year that the Chandlers held her back to start school as the oldest in her class, making her 19 by the time of 2003 when she was in her first year of college. I agree that the showrunners kind of fudge the whole age thing for the cast members. We never knew what Tori's age was. Which was a good thing if it turned out that she was only about 21 to 24 years old. She certainly acted young and spoiled. And in America, it takes 4 years of college and then 7 years of med school to become a doctor. And that is if Vincent went straight through without taking any time off. And we already know that Vincent took SOME kind of break (could have been a summer break) to explore firefighting like his brothers since William told him that he was "going back to medical school" in the flashback memory in "Hothead." Meaning that Vincent in 2001 could have been about 29 years old or even older! So that would make Vincent around 41 years old in 2013! The showrunners just have never told us how old Vincent is. It is almost unheard of for people to become doctors in the US any earlier, but Vincent could have been some brilliant prodigy that graduated from high school and college early. (Otherwise, depending on how young Tori was, Vincent could have been dating someone half his age!) Vincent being in or around age 40-something IS supported, at least a little, by his comment to Tess in "Held Hostage." He tells Tess that "the thirties are better than the twenties, at least for some people" which I took to mean that Vincent's 30's were spent on the run and in hiding from Muirfield. Which would make sense if he was somewhere close to 30 when the army experimented on him. I don't think they will ever clarify the age thing. At least with Catherine, we do know that she was supposed to be 19 at some point in 2003. Beyond that, who knows? Almost all the dialogue about Catherine's age does point to her as being 29 after her birthday in Saturn returns. I also recall in S2, can't recall the exact episode, but Papa Reynolds tells Catherine he stayed out of her life for 29 years. Yet another indication she's 29. However being part of the Class of 2003, messed up the time line. Being held back because of her late birthday is the only explanation that makes sense. At least her back story is pretty consistent for her age. Folks are right in that Vincent's age should be much older given his back story. Oh well, BATB is a fairy tale after all...
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Oct 16, 2014 18:26:27 GMT -5
And I admit that I have put off posting my comments about this episode. I can get so conflicted in watching this episode. It has scenes that I both love and hate. I really did want to actually reach through my screen and just SHAKE some of the characters in certain scenes! I can't recall any other episode of the season quite having such an effect of making you want to be triumphant and despairing even in the same scenes.
Again, I missed the re-watch because my only internet access is at my office building. The location is not the safest at night, particularly as I have to take the time to unlock the completely dark building in order to get to the computer. While I may end up risking it for favorite episodes of Season 2, I admit that risking getting mugged for a Vincent/Tori episode just seemed wrong, so I did not try it. And then procrastinated posting because I can get so divided about this episode.
Because there really ARE several scenes that let you know that VinCat WANTS to be VinCat again. But sheer stubbornness, an inability to just admit you have made completely wrong decisions, and the indirect feeling that your own stupid decisions have inadvertently led to someone's death plus a desire to protect your loved ones that are left ALL contribute to keeping VinCat apart in this episode.
First up: Catherine in this episode. She is just so giddy like a schoolgirl when she gets that call from Vincent. She knows his number. And she has JUST gotten through telling Tess that she is NOT going to be rushed into a relationship. You just know that deep inside, she is holding out hope to get Vincent back. She fairly skips out of the room to take his call and have privacy, interestingly enough WITHOUT Tess hearing the conversation. She even forgets the cookies in the oven. All just for your standard conversation with Vincent. Who points out that when this case is over, they will finally be able to go their separate ways. And you see Catherine just visibly WINCE and deflate with Vincent's words. Yet she assures him that this is HER case (and her life) too, since her ancestor is involved. (And Tori just later calls Vincent out on this one. She tells Vincent that it is clear that Catherine is REALLY just doing all this for him.) And Vincent teasing Cat about her cooking! Means that he can remember enough to know that Catherine lacks cooking skills. And the two are just back to being so comfortable around each other and just want to find reasons to keep talking to one another. And Vincent talks about the problem with Dana and wanting to protect Catherine. From this phone call we see that VinCat are back to planning strategies TOGETHER and working on each thing TOGETHER. Nothing is going to happen that hasn't already been discussed with each other's PARTNER. And Tori has no place in this.
Which brings me to Vincent at the first of this episode. Cat is CLEARLY his person again. The person that he connects with. The person that he trusts to plan with. He just won't admit that she is the person that he needs to have his FUTURE with. At least, not yet. And he STILL doesn't realize that he has made the WRONG CHOICE. He tells Cat in the phone conversation that he has chosen "a different path from her." Yet when Vincent hangs up, he has been SO FOCUSED on his conversation with Cat that he has FAILED to realize that Tori has come into the room. And guesses that Vincent has been on the phone with Cat. And Vincent actually has the good sense to look a little guilty and A LOT awkward with Tori. Vincent just doesn't know how to handle or respond to Tori. Even though they have been sharing a bed, Vincent is no closer to him then when she was a stranger in the woods. In fact, he seems even MORE awkward NOW because at least in the woods in 206, he had a plan and knew where he was going. Now, he just seems like a boat out at sea without a rudder and unsure of what to do now.
And Tori calls Vincent out on the mess he has made of his life. She asks him, point blank, as to whether or not Vincent wants Catherine back. If Vincent didn't want Cat back, he could just say no. But he CLEARLY DOES want Catherine back at this point. So he has to deflect and not answer Tori's question by claiming that he just wants to find the gem. So much for beast sex. It is not even enough to make Vincent want to try to involve Tori in his life. She is just there. Vincent has taken responsibility for her and wearily just tries to get through the days. And nights. Yet after beast sex, he MUST have been sitting there thinking of Catherine because, per Tori, Vincent has been sneaking out of bed EVERY NIGHT to talk to his Catherine afterwards. Seriously, Tori, how much more of a picture does Vincent need to paint for you about how he really feels?
Yet idiot Vincent never realizes that he has not made clear TO CAT about how he really feels. Cat offers him advice at JT's party of how to get CLOSER to Tori and preserve the relationship. Clearly, Cat thinks that Vincent DOES still want to be with Tori AND is just pushing her away in the same way he did to Cat back in Season 1 in order to protect her. Yet THIS SCENE at JT's party is so significant as it shows both a misunderstanding between Vincent and Catherine as to Tori's real significance in his life AND how much VinCat still trust one another to help each other out in the most important details and plans about their lives. AND POOR CAT inadvertently gets Vincent feeling guilty about the obvious way he made Catherine feel as if she didn't know where she stood back in Season 1 when Vincent kept trying to push her away. So Vincent doesn't open up to Catherine that he just wants to be rid of Tori because the old guilt has come back. Vincent sees how much he put Catherine through and how much she sacrificed for him. So he doesn't deserve her. So Vincent is probably thinking he deserved someone like Tori who is messed up and confused and alone in the world due to the whole beast thing. SO VINCENT DOESN'T TELL CAT about his decision to just break things off with Tori. Big Mistake Vincent.
And Vincent also must be thinking that Cat is clearly over him if she can advise him to stay with Tori and try to make the relationship work. VINCENT TRIES to get his feelings out there, in one particular moment, when Cat references their "friendship." Vincent just asks her "is that ALL we are?" What Vincent REALLY is asking is if there is anything MORE to their relationship than just friends. But Cat fails to realize this. And she quips back, "better than enemies." So Vincent thinks SHE is over him.
Which leads to the scene in the dungeon cell. Vincent realizes that Tori came to rescue JT on a whim AND WITHOUT THINKING or planning, as she has always done in order to prove her worth to Vincent. And Vincent just HAS to realize that Tori's acting without thinking has been VINCENT's WAY of handling problems ever since he met her. Just relying on beast instincts to get the job done without a plan and without morality or common sense. And in that moment of Tori's death, Vincent FINALLY comes to realize the FULL CONSEQUENCES of acting in this manner. Tori is dead, and Vincent feels somewhat responsible for never being able to teach Tori common sense and PLANNING and stopping to think before acting on beast instincts. Both Vincent and Tori had failed to try to CONTROL their beastly instincts and HERE is the result. Dead girl. So Vincent mourns his failures and Tori's never really having had a chance. But poor Cat just sees Vincent seemingly mourning the girl that he loved. So she thinks he has moved on.
And the dungeon scene leads Cat to her ultimately wrong decision to pursue Gabe. But can you blame her IN THIS MOMENT? To Cat, Vincent has obviously moved on. He is over her. After all, Cat didn't know that Vincent had broken up with Tori. And what does Cat have at this time? She is still stuck on a man that is really over her, months after their break-up. She is still waiting for every phone call, ready to drop whatever else she is doing in her life at that time. Heartbreak on top of heartbreak. And Cat just wants the pain to end. And here is this guy, Gabe, that seems to want so badly to love her and be with her. So Cat thinks, why not? Maybe then all this trauma and pain might end. Might see what Normal looks like. YES, I agree that it just is reckless and stupid to choose GABE for the guy to try to love. But really, who else IN HER LIFE AT THAT TIME would have understood what she had gone through? Who else would know about Muirfield, her mother, being a victim, seeing what her mother's experiments have done to others? Maybe Cat even thought she was righting a wrong in choosing to love and help Gabe come back from the bad beast that he had been. Cat certainly knew how much her own MOTHER had tried to help Gabe and how much her mother had told Gabe about her family and her oldest daughter. So Vanessa clearly thought highly of Gabe as a child and went to GREAT lengths to get Gabe out, even AFTER Gabe had already been injected. And Gabe is a lawyer like Thomas, the only father she had ever really known and loved, was. And Gabe was devoted (at that time) to helping others. Again, like her father.
Granted, I have to CREATE reasons in my own mind to justify/explain why Catherine chose GABE of all people to try to have a normal relationship with. I certainly never saw any reasons presented on screen other than the fact that he was there and obviously available. But the above paragraph gives my thoughts on why Catherine has not completely gone mental in choosing to try to have a relationshp with Gabe. Yes, I am still partly scarred for life due to this episode. I wanted to shake both Catherine and Vincent for just not ADMITTING their mistakes to one another and that they just wanted back together. But realistically, it was too soon. And the writers wanted Catherine to make dumb decisions like Vincent in order to bring them back together as equals. Show them that being with other people would NEVER compare to who they could be together. I get it. Don't have to like it.
At least by episode's end, it has FINALLY been driven home to Vincent that HE HAS MADE THE WRONG CHOICES. And Vincent FINALLY gets that point BUT it leads to him just vegging out on a couch for days afterwards. Vincent's guilt keeps him from trying to pursue Cat right away. Vincent wants to try to remain in her life as her FRIEND and so has to be SUPPORTIVE of all her decisions, even the bad ones. Even with Cat telling Vincent that a decent friend would explore this stuff and try to look out for one's friend. And as Vincent tells Catherine in the dungeon after Tori's body has been taken away, he most likely pushed her away in Season 1 because HE KNEW he could never deal with her death. So Vincent just retreats into himself for the next several days (I know, I'm talking about episode 213 in most of this paragraph) and doesn't have contact with Cat. Which only leads CAT to believe that he really was mourning his lost love and not thinking about her at all.
Darn you Episode 212 for creating further misunderstandings and sorrow and burden between my VinCat. Even when you gave us moments that showed us how very much VinCat wanted to be back together.
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