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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Sept 5, 2014 9:53:23 GMT -5
Sorry, I did not have a chance to post my thoughts before but I will now. I absolutely loved this episode a) cause I thought it was really well written and a breath of fresh air writing wise compared to say episodes 5 and 6 and, most importantly b) FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS SEASON WE GOT HONESTY FROM BOTH CAT AND VINCENT. this convo after the kiss was fantastic and real and honest and the first time Vincent really admitted he was NOT ok and Catherine admitted she could NOT deal with the situation as it was. We had this lukewarm reception of Vincent in episodes 5 and 6 by Cat and I coudl finally fully understand why. And we were always doubting that Vincent had recovered from what had been done to him and he finally got to admit it! I also adored Ted's acting in this episode and the intensity of some of the moments Yes, I was not a huge fan of the kiss and yes the whole triangle situation this season has been absolutely ludicrous (both the Toricent crap and even more so the Gaberine crap) but regardless I thought this is one of the strongest episodes of the season. Not an episode I will rewatch 100 times to swoon over Vincat obviously, but an episode that was absolutely essential and well executed and led really really well to another really good episode, episode 8. So I am afraid I have to disagree that this was a poor episode. alwayscrazedbatbfan , yes I do think this love is worth fighting for and I never doubted it was. We have to understand that Vincent was NOT himself in the first half of season 2 and had gone through so much crap that I am surprised he was even on his two feet or even slightly making an effort. Vincent was a lost man and yes at that stage did not fight hard for his love because he was not able to. He was not even able to fully feel that love because he was weak and broken and confused and fighting against a bigger battle - his dark side, the beast within. And obviously he managed to get over this but it was not easy and I would expect Cat to continue fighting for him (as she did) cause if she did not then that woudl make me question the epic love element. Vincent was not in the right state of mind, his soul was broken and he needed help. That is a fact I just accepted - he came out stronger and is now more willing to fight for his love than he was in season 1 which is good. I dunno maybe my definition of epic love is different but I never really questioned that, even in season 2. I am not saying we should have had to endure poor storylines, meaningless triangles whcih could have been replace dby much more meaningful obstacles and silly side stories such as the Gabriela one, and I did get frustrated with both V incent and Cat this season but I personally never questioned whether this love was worth fighting for or not. i know views are different on this and I fully respect all views, but just thought I'd express how I feel about it. Amen! Thats one of the things that kept me hanging on this season. The pull that no matter what was going on between VinCat it was there. And IMO, i never saw VinCat as not epic or true love. No i didnt like the triangles, but just because the writers gave us the triangles and the "cheating" and that mess doesnt automatically mean that VinCat isnt still an EPIC love. I never saw VinCat's love ever as being anything less than EPIC. The fact that VinCat was able to make it through those things and come out stronger than ever is what makes it EPIC. If they never went through an trial & tribulations how would they know that they are truly EPIC & destined? Lets face it things and life arent always sunshine and roses. And I think they needed to be put through the ringer to prove this. In S1 in imo their issues, problems, threats whatever you want to call them, werent a strong enough threat to challenge the EPICness of VinCat's love. Vincent's memory loss and his struggling to remember, and inner struggle w/ fighting the beast within was much more of a threat to VinCats love than Muirfield, and all the other forces against them in S1 ever was. I never questioned if they would get back together or if their love was worth fighting for. The pull was just too strong between them, even at complete odds to deny that eventually they'd get back together. Even some of their heated fights I felt like couldve turned passionate in an instant. I always felt that they connected at a deeper level and that connection I felt could never be broken. And that working through whatever issues it was, weather it was Tor, Gabe, Bob, V's inner struggle, or Cat keeping everything inside that they would make it through. They needed something major to shake their relationship to prove how destined they really are. And as much as I hated them being apart and w/ other people and all their issues, I loved seeing them work their way back to each other. And I feel like I can actually say VinCat are really destined and no matter what will work through it in the end and be together where I dont feel like I couldve said that at the end of S1. [/b] I competely agree that by the end of s2 i really felt that these two were stronger together. their union was much more substantial. i did miss things in s2 like I would have liked to have seen more the dark, romantic element of s1 and deeper conversations more often etc but definitely by the end of season 2 i did feel that vincat were much more unbreakable than they were at the end of season 1
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 5, 2014 10:52:01 GMT -5
Okay, going to try to "clarify" and add more to my original post after reading the commentaries. Understand, I have previously called Season 2 of BATB a "beautiful train wreck" for a reason. Please understand, Arwenfan especially, that I was NOT trying to simply "give Catherine a pass" for her conduct over the course of Season 2. It is just that so many fans seem to level so much of the blame at Catherine during Season 2 rather than accepting that the writers chose to do what they did for a reason (which I can sometimes appreciate, even if I didn't like it--that happens. Still LOVE the overall theme of Season 2 that even after the worst of hardships, true Epic Love will find a way back to itself. And VinCat ARE stronger now. Still didn't like having to WATCH the hardships though. And felt that some of those hardships should have been further explored by the characters themselves.).
BOTH Catherine AND Vincent basically have the worst that can possibly happen to them actually happen to them. And rather than turning towards each other, both had to figure out their individual selves before being able to turn towards each other. Got that. Didn't like it, but got that. So each appears basically selfish at times in being so self-consumed by their own misery and trauma that unable to appreciate or see what the other is going through. So both make mistakes. Leads to a stronger VinCat as both characters find their own moral center, reclaim the best of what made me love them so in the beginning, and leads to them figuring out that together TRULY MEANS together and not just trying to think or plan for the other one.
Until one works through the trauma that has happened, the person cannot move forward. Believe me, I get that. I represented children in the foster system for ten years that had been abused and neglected. For children that had experienced sudden, life-altering horror and trauma, you knew that you would never get back the kid that had been born to this world and lived entirely differently prior to the things that led them to being taken into custody by the state. Adding tragedy upon tragedy, some of these traumatized children then acted out their frustrations on other children, sometimes doing worse or the same that was done to them. And you weep buckets for them, both victims and perps. And even try to defend them and appeal to the judicial system for mercy due to what happened to them in the past. You plead for treatment and things that the state either doesn't have or can't pay for. And sometimes, the poor parents just didn't know what to do when their child had something so awful happen to them and couldn't deal due to their own grief. So maybe part of the problem of this season was that it hit too terribly close to home to what I witnessed in my career for 10 years. Basically, after something so awful and life-altering trauma happens, you lose the ability to trust, even when all evidence points to law enforcement, social workers, therapists and others are actually TRYING to help.
Given the above, BOTH Catherine and Vincent had significant trauma. Which emotionally speaking, put them both to the emotional level almost of abused children until they could work through their trauma. For Vincent, he has NOTHING to pull from but scraps of memory that slowly come back to him. And he has had significant training (brainwashing) to make him kill without question, yet amp up his paranoia. So Vincent is beyond damaged. And he lashes out. Problem is, like so many abused children, he lashes out at another victim, Catherine. And he links up with a still more vulnerable victim, Tori. Worst possible decision-making. Understandable, yes, but worst possible position coming from someone able to really contemplate the future, especially with Bob around and trying so hard to ensure that neither Vincent or Tori has a future.
And Bob, like so many abusive adults, is deadly manipulative. Can make the vulnerable victim feel to blame for what has happened or that said person asked for it. The PORCH SCENE from 207 is therefore critical to how Bob can easily tear Vincent down in a moment and sew the seeds of doubt in his already vulnerable and fragmented relationship with Catherine. Ever the master manipulator, Bob knew Vincent still wanted to not be the cause of harm to Catherine and felt unworthy because of his beast qualities.
Add in the fact that Catherine has had JUST as much trauma, although different, happening to her for about the same amount of time as Vincent. And both have spent years virtually alone in their knowledge of the Big Bad responsible, yet helpless to do a thing about it. Catherine has now seen BOTH of the parents that raised her either gunned down or killed right in front of her. And nearly died in the process herself. Add to that the fact that she wasn't believed. It even made the newspapers about her claim that a "beast" had saved her. She was told to doubt what she saw. Then she finds out the truth is so much worse than even she thought. Catherine felt she had been lied to for years by her parents, and Catherine repeatedly gets confronted by the outcome to her biological father and mother choosing to play god with so many people's lives. Catherine almost has "survivor's guilt" for what happened to so many victims, particularly children like Gabe. Catherine tries to make right her parents' mistakes, which means she tries to "redeem" people and find the good in them, sometimes to her detriment (especially this past season). And we learn that Catherine's attempts to find redemption for lost souls actually goes farther back even from her trauma, as evidenced by her boyfriend choices in high school that we learned of in episode 205 (so yeah, the nuggets of Catherine's past that came out in 205 helped me find justifications for that episode which many don't like).
Catherine's support system has also had their own traumas (Tess and Joe and what happened to their precinct). Catherine saw how Evan died trying to protect her. And although Evan made his own choices, Catherine knows that he chose to work with Muirfield in order to try to "save" Catherine. So Catherine, already burdened by what her parents have done, has this added to her. And her closest support, Vincent, is taken. And Catherine thinks it is by Muirfield, so she spends 3 months thinking Vincent is being tortured non-stop or experimented on all because she can't find and rescue him. And Catherine would also have blamed herself for Vincent due to the whole Gabe incident. Catherine was the one to promote the relationship in thinking Gabe and Vincent could help each other. And Vincent takes the pills to try for a normal life with Catherine because he believes that is what she wants. Only to have Catherine have to inject Vincent to save his life and get him to beast-out again. So I can't even imagine Catherine's state of mind by the time that Vincent finally re-emerges. Plus, Catherine's father died AFTER ALL, right when everyone thought he would pull through, and Catherine semi-lost her sister in the process because she couldn't take time to grieve.
So Catherine is a mess, and Vincent is a mess. Neither is able to really trust the other due to the whole "memory wipe" thing. And neither is able to REALLY be honest with each other because both of them are so wounded and unable to really grasp what he or she wants. That is why I appreciated "Liar, Liar." Catherine ends up admitting to Tess that even TESS saw that she just wanted her boyfriend back when Catherine thought she was looking out for other potential victims. SO THAT is, in part, why 207 (and 208 through 210) really rub me wrong. At least in episode 203 we get the characters revealing their insights, talking things out, etc. that can explain their rationale and actions. And Catherine can reach out to Tess while being emotionally unavailable to Vincent due to all that is going on. I get why Catherine pulls back and shuts Vincent out rather than trying to fake being all right when she clearly is not.
And Vincent is going through the same mess as Catherine and coming to realize what a burden has been placed on her. Vincent had not idea because he really had no memory or understanding of what Catherine had been through. So I get the "Reunion" episode covering that there are cracks and disconnects in the relationship that are going to come to a boil. Yet Vincent knows enough about Catherine by this time to see that she was trying to help him and that she loved him. Vincent realizes how much Catherine has had to cover up for him. And his humanity was returning. So the writers needed something to further derail and cause the disconnects and cracks to become fissures and volcanoes.
Enter Tori. An even more emotionally vulnerable victim. Add that you still have storyline to cover, and I get why so much got left uncovered or unsaid. Still, I would have liked to have seen so much more to explain the possibly "primal" pull and whether or not Vincent COULD resist. As I have said, I recognize that Vincent was at his most vulnerable, emotionally and memory speaking. While Tori later describes the attraction as primal, that certainly does not make it Epic. I have other posts covering why I feel that the primal pull between beasts ultimately proved to be hollow and meaningless to Vincent and made him only more conscious of how right for him Catherine actually was. So little was actually done with Tori (due to time constraints, and let's face it, due to the immediate unpopularity of the character and the fact that the story just wasn't working) to justify Vincent choosing to just immediately hook up with her. All the warning signs were there about how vulnerable Tori was, the abuse/isolation she had obviously gone through, her freaking AGE, her inability to understand or control what was happening to her.
I DO understand that Episode 207 is actually VERY critical to the ongoing plot. Episode 207 shows us just how vulnerable Tori is through her plan to kill herself (without even guaranteeing a means of bringing herself back--she can't really think through anything), her pleas and demands/manipulation on Gabe to just "invite" herself into his life on Thanksgiving because she doesn't want to be alone, her inability to control the "pull" with another Beast that results in her literally overturning a table and running off, her then clinging to and kissing Vincent and making him "responsible" for her. Yet despite ALL of these signs, rather than becoming a mentor to her, Vincent literally hops straight into bed and into living with her rather quickly. Yeah, blame Bob. But no matter how traumatized he is, Vincent is still responsible for his own acts, both legally and morally. And although unwittingly, Vincent will help lead to Tori's death. While I can understand, in part, Vincent's actions, I can still find them reprehensible and can still wonder why he wouldn't even choose to question the whole "primal pull" thing. Or at least, I would have liked further explanations and conversations and introspection. While I would have liked "more," I get that one argument is that Vincent was so "riled up" by said primal attraction that he never comes down until holding the gem and then realizing he had misjudged Catherine in 211. From 211 forward, Vincent apparently begins questioning the wisdom of his acts and tries to distance himself from Tori (212), but her death ultimately provides the last necessary bucket of ice water to clarify for him that his choices and actions have led him down the wrong path, both for himself and Catherine.
So I understand why 207 is important. Not denying it. Also NOT denying that it rubbed me wrong. I wanted VinCat to turn towards one another and seek answers together. Of course, I get why their current states of being necessitated other actions and why they questioned one another. Doesn't mean I have to like it or want to see it again. Hope that clarifies that I DO get where the characters are coming from, even if I wished for them to make other choices. Still felt sorry for Vincent while wanting to throttle him. Same with Catherine, at times.
I do give the writers their credit for making me both love and even hate the same characters. They certainly got me emotionally angry and sad and frustrated at what was happening on my screen while hanging onto every word and scene. The fact that we can all get so into arguing the minutia of each episode means that it had a powerful enough impact. As always, I love BATB and still see Season 2 as "a beautiful train wreck." Just arguing that I still needed more on the whole "primal beast" pull, because really, Vincent seemed unable to even like Tori or relate to her most of the time. And YES, we need some answers, since VinCat have never really discussed these issues that we know of, and their uniting to try to save OTHER victims, some potentially beast-like, means that this whole "primal pull" thing could come up all over again in Season 3. So knowing whether or not Vincent CAN resist could come up all over again and bring the issues to the forefront. Hence why I tend to look back over Season 2 for potential VinCat issues not yet dealt with that could come up again.
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Post by bookworm on Sept 5, 2014 11:39:52 GMT -5
Okay, going to try to "clarify" and add more to my original post after reading the commentaries. Understand, I have previously called Season 2 of BATB a "beautiful train wreck" for a reason. Please understand, Arwenfan especially, that I was NOT trying to simply "give Catherine a pass" for her conduct over the course of Season 2. It is just that so many fans seem to level so much of the blame at Catherine during Season 2 rather than accepting that the writers chose to do what they did for a reason (which I can sometimes appreciate, even if I didn't like it--that happens. Still LOVE the overall theme of Season 2 that even after the worst of hardships, true Epic Love will find a way back to itself. And VinCat ARE stronger now. Still didn't like having to WATCH the hardships though. And felt that some of those hardships should have been further explored by the characters themselves.). BOTH Catherine AND Vincent basically have the worst that can possibly happen to them actually happen to them. And rather than turning towards each other, both had to figure out their individual selves before being able to turn towards each other. Got that. Didn't like it, but got that. So each appears basically selfish at times in being so self-consumed by their own misery and trauma that unable to appreciate or see what the other is going through. So both make mistakes. Leads to a stronger VinCat as both characters find their own moral center, reclaim the best of what made me love them so in the beginning, and leads to them figuring out that together TRULY MEANS together and not just trying to think or plan for the other one. Until one works through the trauma that has happened, the person cannot move forward. Believe me, I get that. I represented children in the foster system for ten years that had been abused and neglected. For children that had experienced sudden, life-altering horror and trauma, you knew that you would never get back the kid that had been born to this world and lived entirely differently prior to the things that led them to being taken into custody by the state. Adding tragedy upon tragedy, some of these traumatized children then acted out their frustrations on other children, sometimes doing worse or the same that was done to them. And you weep buckets for them, both victims and perps. And even try to defend them and appeal to the judicial system for mercy due to what happened to them in the past. You plead for treatment and things that the state either doesn't have or can't pay for. And sometimes, the poor parents just didn't know what to do when their child had something so awful happen to them and couldn't deal due to their own grief. So maybe part of the problem of this season was that it hit too terribly close to home to what I witnessed in my career for 10 years. Basically, after something so awful and life-altering trauma happens, you lose the ability to trust, even when all evidence points to law enforcement, social workers, therapists and others are actually TRYING to help. Given the above, BOTH Catherine and Vincent had significant trauma. Which emotionally speaking, put them both to the emotional level almost of abused children until they could work through their trauma. For Vincent, he has NOTHING to pull from but scraps of memory that slowly come back to him. And he has had significant training (brainwashing) to make him kill without question, yet amp up his paranoia. So Vincent is beyond damaged. And he lashes out. Problem is, like so many abused children, he lashes out at another victim, Catherine. And he links up with a still more vulnerable victim, Tori. Worst possible decision-making. Understandable, yes, but worst possible position coming from someone able to really contemplate the future, especially with Bob around and trying so hard to ensure that neither Vincent or Tori has a future. And Bob, like so many abusive adults, is deadly manipulative. Can make the vulnerable victim feel to blame for what has happened or that said person asked for it. The PORCH SCENE from 207 is therefore critical to how Bob can easily tear Vincent down in a moment and sew the seeds of doubt in his already vulnerable and fragmented relationship with Catherine. Ever the master manipulator, Bob knew Vincent still wanted to not be the cause of harm to Catherine and felt unworthy because of his beast qualities. Add in the fact that Catherine has had JUST as much trauma, although different, happening to her for about the same amount of time as Vincent. And both have spent years virtually alone in their knowledge of the Big Bad responsible, yet helpless to do a thing about it. Catherine has now seen BOTH of the parents that raised her either gunned down or killed right in front of her. And nearly died in the process herself. Add to that the fact that she wasn't believed. It even made the newspapers about her claim that a "beast" had saved her. She was told to doubt what she saw. Then she finds out the truth is so much worse than even she thought. Catherine felt she had been lied to for years by her parents, and Catherine repeatedly gets confronted by the outcome to her biological father and mother choosing to play god with so many people's lives. Catherine almost has "survivor's guilt" for what happened to so many victims, particularly children like Gabe. Catherine tries to make right her parents' mistakes, which means she tries to "redeem" people and find the good in them, sometimes to her detriment (especially this past season). And we learn that Catherine's attempts to find redemption for lost souls actually goes farther back even from her trauma, as evidenced by her boyfriend choices in high school that we learned of in episode 205 (so yeah, the nuggets of Catherine's past that came out in 205 helped me find justifications for that episode which many don't like). Catherine's support system has also had their own traumas (Tess and Joe and what happened to their precinct). Catherine saw how Evan died trying to protect her. And although Evan made his own choices, Catherine knows that he chose to work with Muirfield in order to try to "save" Catherine. So Catherine, already burdened by what her parents have done, has this added to her. And her closest support, Vincent, is taken. And Catherine thinks it is by Muirfield, so she spends 3 months thinking Vincent is being tortured non-stop or experimented on all because she can't find and rescue him. And Catherine would also have blamed herself for Vincent due to the whole Gabe incident. Catherine was the one to promote the relationship in thinking Gabe and Vincent could help each other. And Vincent takes the pills to try for a normal life with Catherine because he believes that is what she wants. Only to have Catherine have to inject Vincent to save his life and get him to beast-out again. So I can't even imagine Catherine's state of mind by the time that Vincent finally re-emerges. Plus, Catherine's father died AFTER ALL, right when everyone thought he would pull through, and Catherine semi-lost her sister in the process because she couldn't take time to grieve. So Catherine is a mess, and Vincent is a mess. Neither is able to really trust the other due to the whole "memory wipe" thing. And neither is able to REALLY be honest with each other because both of them are so wounded and unable to really grasp what he or she wants. That is why I appreciated "Liar, Liar." Catherine ends up admitting to Tess that even TESS saw that she just wanted her boyfriend back when Catherine thought she was looking out for other potential victims. SO THAT is, in part, why 207 (and 208 through 210) really rub me wrong. At least in episode 203 we get the characters revealing their insights, talking things out, etc. that can explain their rationale and actions. And Catherine can reach out to Tess while being emotionally unavailable to Vincent due to all that is going on. I get why Catherine pulls back and shuts Vincent out rather than trying to fake being all right when she clearly is not. And Vincent is going through the same mess as Catherine and coming to realize what a burden has been placed on her. Vincent had not idea because he really had no memory or understanding of what Catherine had been through. So I get the "Reunion" episode covering that there are cracks and disconnects in the relationship that are going to come to a boil. Yet Vincent knows enough about Catherine by this time to see that she was trying to help him and that she loved him. Vincent realizes how much Catherine has had to cover up for him. And his humanity was returning. So the writers needed something to further derail and cause the disconnects and cracks to become fissures and volcanoes. Enter Tori. An even more emotionally vulnerable victim. Add that you still have storyline to cover, and I get why so much got left uncovered or unsaid. Still, I would have liked to have seen so much more to explain the possibly "primal" pull and whether or not Vincent COULD resist. As I have said, I recognize that Vincent was at his most vulnerable, emotionally and memory speaking. While Tori later describes the attraction as primal, that certainly does not make it Epic. I have other posts covering why I feel that the primal pull between beasts ultimately proved to be hollow and meaningless to Vincent and made him only more conscious of how right for him Catherine actually was. So little was actually done with Tori (due to time constraints, and let's face it, due to the immediate unpopularity of the character and the fact that the story just wasn't working) to justify Vincent choosing to just immediately hook up with her. All the warning signs were there about how vulnerable Tori was, the abuse/isolation she had obviously gone through, her freaking AGE, her inability to understand or control what was happening to her. I DO understand that Episode 207 is actually VERY critical to the ongoing plot. Episode 207 shows us just how vulnerable Tori is through her plan to kill herself (without even guaranteeing a means of bringing herself back--she can't really think through anything), her pleas and demands/manipulation on Gabe to just "invite" herself into his life on Thanksgiving because she doesn't want to be alone, her inability to control the "pull" with another Beast that results in her literally overturning a table and running off, her then clinging to and kissing Vincent and making him "responsible" for her. Yet despite ALL of these signs, rather than becoming a mentor to her, Vincent literally hops straight into bed and into living with her rather quickly. Yeah, blame Bob. But no matter how traumatized he is, Vincent is still responsible for his own acts, both legally and morally. And although unwittingly, Vincent will help lead to Tori's death. While I can understand, in part, Vincent's actions, I can still find them reprehensible and can still wonder why he wouldn't even choose to question the whole "primal pull" thing. Or at least, I would have liked further explanations and conversations and introspection. While I would have liked "more," I get that one argument is that Vincent was so "riled up" by said primal attraction that he never comes down until holding the gem and then realizing he had misjudged Catherine in 211. From 211 forward, Vincent apparently begins questioning the wisdom of his acts and tries to distance himself from Tori (212), but her death ultimately provides the last necessary bucket of ice water to clarify for him that his choices and actions have led him down the wrong path, both for himself and Catherine. So I understand why 207 is important. Not denying it. Also NOT denying that it rubbed me wrong. I wanted VinCat to turn towards one another and seek answers together. Of course, I get why their current states of being necessitated other actions and why they questioned one another. Doesn't mean I have to like it or want to see it again. Hope that clarifies that I DO get where the characters are coming from, even if I wished for them to make other choices. Still felt sorry for Vincent while wanting to throttle him. Same with Catherine, at times. I do give the writers their credit for making me both love and even hate the same characters. They certainly got me emotionally angry and sad and frustrated at what was happening on my screen while hanging onto every word and scene. The fact that we can all get so into arguing the minutia of each episode means that it had a powerful enough impact. As always, I love BATB and still see Season 2 as "a beautiful train wreck." Just arguing that I still needed more on the whole "primal beast" pull, because really, Vincent seemed unable to even like Tori or relate to her most of the time. And YES, we need some answers, since VinCat have never really discussed these issues that we know of, and their uniting to try to save OTHER victims, some potentially beast-like, means that this whole "primal pull" thing could come up all over again in Season 3. So knowing whether or not Vincent CAN resist could come up all over again and bring the issues to the forefront. Hence why I tend to look back over Season 2 for potential VinCat issues not yet dealt with that could come up again. I totally agree with these points in bold you made. I never understood the necessity of the pull towards Tori because it's already been used in connection with Catherine and it's too much in one season if you ask me. Will Vincent feel the pull every time a female beast comes into town? ..... It makes him look a little cheap and I question the epic VinCat love this is supposed to be. Ok, ok, I know... he changed... still I have a lot of questions unanswered about the first half of the season.
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 5, 2014 13:57:02 GMT -5
I DO understand that Episode 207 is actually VERY critical to the ongoing plot. Episode 207 shows us just how vulnerable Tori is through her plan to kill herself (without even guaranteeing a means of bringing herself back--she can't really think through anything), her pleas and demands/manipulation on Gabe to just "invite" herself into his life on Thanksgiving because she doesn't want to be alone, her inability to control the "pull" with another Beast that results in her literally overturning a table and running off, her then clinging to and kissing Vincent and making him "responsible" for her. Yet despite ALL of these signs, rather than becoming a mentor to her, Vincent literally hops straight into bed and into living with her rather quickly. Yeah, blame Bob. But no matter how traumatized he is, Vincent is still responsible for his own acts, both legally and morally. And although unwittingly, Vincent will help lead to Tori's death. While I can understand, in part, Vincent's actions, I can still find them reprehensible and can still wonder why he wouldn't even choose to question the whole "primal pull" thing. Or at least, I would have liked further explanations and conversations and introspection. While I would have liked "more," I get that one argument is that Vincent was so "riled up" by said primal attraction that he never comes down until holding the gem and then realizing he had misjudged Catherine in 211. From 211 forward, Vincent apparently begins questioning the wisdom of his acts and tries to distance himself from Tori (212), but her death ultimately provides the last necessary bucket of ice water to clarify for him that his choices and actions have led him down the wrong path, both for himself and Catherine. I didn't see Tori manipulating Gabe into taking her along to Thanksgiving dinner. She asked him to sign her out of the hospital when he visited her (because someone at the hospital called him after finding his business card on her person), he was the one who took on the responsibility of babysitting her and dragging her along to Bob's. But Tori did glom on to Vincent as one of her people and didn't let go. Vincent did mentor Tori; he taught her to hone her senses and how to use them. But again, he was damaged himself and dealing with his own issues, how in the world was he going to help Tori be the best person she could be? As you pointed out, at some point a person has to take responsibility for him/herself and want to make changes in you for you. If Vincent was as traumatized and emotionally crippled as you point out above, how can he be expected to make good decisions and have sound judgment? He can't be. Once Vincent started trusting Catherine and working with her, he began to take a look at what the last few months, and his actions and behavior had cost him. He did begin to resist Tori's influence and began his journey to completely finding himself again. If you find Vincent's actions reprehensible, I'm curious about what you think of Catherine ignoring Gabe's history to just hop into bed with him and shooting to kill when she shot Vincent (saving Bob or no). Because in my opinion, one is inconceivable and the other did serious damage to her character. And finally, how did Vincent unwittingly lead Tori to her death? He did not send her to rescue JT or know that she would try it. That was all on Tori. She acted in her typical rash fashion and this time it cost her her life. True enough and that spoke volumes to me. I feel confident that VinCat have discussed all the relevant details that kept them apart even though those conversations were not shown on the screen. I also feel confident that Vincent has proven that he will not choose "beast" over his humanity and by extension his relationship with Catherine ever again. Otherwise, what was the purpose of half of this season?
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Post by bookworm on Sept 5, 2014 15:37:32 GMT -5
I DO understand that Episode 207 is actually VERY critical to the ongoing plot. Episode 207 shows us just how vulnerable Tori is through her plan to kill herself (without even guaranteeing a means of bringing herself back--she can't really think through anything), her pleas and demands/manipulation on Gabe to just "invite" herself into his life on Thanksgiving because she doesn't want to be alone, her inability to control the "pull" with another Beast that results in her literally overturning a table and running off, her then clinging to and kissing Vincent and making him "responsible" for her. Yet despite ALL of these signs, rather than becoming a mentor to her, Vincent literally hops straight into bed and into living with her rather quickly. Yeah, blame Bob. But no matter how traumatized he is, Vincent is still responsible for his own acts, both legally and morally. And although unwittingly, Vincent will help lead to Tori's death. While I can understand, in part, Vincent's actions, I can still find them reprehensible and can still wonder why he wouldn't even choose to question the whole "primal pull" thing. Or at least, I would have liked further explanations and conversations and introspection. While I would have liked "more," I get that one argument is that Vincent was so "riled up" by said primal attraction that he never comes down until holding the gem and then realizing he had misjudged Catherine in 211. From 211 forward, Vincent apparently begins questioning the wisdom of his acts and tries to distance himself from Tori (212), but her death ultimately provides the last necessary bucket of ice water to clarify for him that his choices and actions have led him down the wrong path, both for himself and Catherine. I didn't see Tori manipulating Gabe into taking her along to Thanksgiving dinner. She asked him to sign her out of the hospital when he visited her (because someone at the hospital called him after finding his business card on her person), he was the one who took on the responsibility of babysitting her and dragging her along to Bob's. But Tori did glom on to Vincent as one of her people and didn't let go. Vincent did mentor Tori; he taught her to hone her senses and how to use them. But again, he was damaged himself and dealing with his own issues, how in the world was he going to help Tori be the best person she could be? As you pointed out, at some point a person has to take responsibility for him/herself and want to make changes in you for you. If Vincent was as traumatized and emotionally crippled as you point out above, how can he be expected to make good decisions and have sound judgment? He can't be. Once Vincent started trusting Catherine and working with her, he began to take a look at what the last few months, and his actions and behavior had cost him. He did begin to resist Tori's influence and began his journey to completely finding himself again. If you find Vincent's actions reprehensible, I'm curious about what you think of Catherine ignoring Gabe's history to just hop into bed with him and shooting to kill when she shot Vincent (saving Bob or no). Because in my opinion, one is inconceivable and the other did serious damage to her character. And finally, how did Vincent unwittingly lead Tori to her death? He did not send her to rescue JT or know that she would try it. That was all on Tori. She acted in her typical rash fashion and this time it cost her her life. True enough and that spoke volumes to me. I feel confident that VinCat have discussed all the relevant details that kept them apart even though those conversations were not shown on the screen. I also feel confident that Vincent has proven that he will not choose "beast" over his humanity and by extension his relationship with Catherine ever again. Otherwise, what was the purpose of half of this season?Now that's a damn good question!!!!!! It looks like most of the whole season was somehow a shock to me, like watching a different show- until V begins to think he is worthy again and Catherine realizes it is a mistake to be with Gabe- and I am still not over things especially when they don't make sense. They should've cleared most of the mess they (the witers) caused by the end of the season but with so many plotholes (unbelievable!) and weird choices I think they made a bigger mess and now that S2 is over and the new one is beginning I hardly believe they plan to go back and close/fix every single flaw. The funny thing is that maybe they are not even aware of this! Or are we/am I too critical? Never mind, I can always hope for better plot/ arcs/ character development/ script this season!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 5, 2014 16:33:52 GMT -5
Arwenfan,
Umm, I think I am being misinterpreted here. I wasn't actually disagreeing with you in my second post. I think we see things more or less the same, overall. I do find some of Vincent's choices reprehensible, from my own personal moral standpoint (and what I admittedly wanted to see on my screen for VinCat). However, my whole post argued that I DID get that Vincent's judgment was severely compromised by all of the trauma, lack of memories, etc. (Hey, personally, I would have actually enjoyed seeing Vincent kill Bob in the moment. From a certain viewpoint and personal satisfaction, Bob really deserved to die at that point. HOWEVER, we supposedly have laws and a legal system for a reason. Plus, if we went solely by actions, Vincent would have deserved a death sentence for what he did to the innocents abroad when he and his other soldiers were first injected by Muirfield. However, as soon as Vincent developed control and got his reason back, he certainly didn't want to kill. The beast side of him was so uncontrollable then that his actions would have certainly had a defense. And I even think Vincent also had some PTSD symptoms this season that seemed to be coming through.) Just because I don't like some action taken by a character doesn't mean that I don't understand why that action actually occurred. A theme of BATB through both seasons has been that even vigilantes like Vincent can go too far and do too much, thus compromising themselves and risking losing themselves to rage and revenge (think this is where they were trying to go with Sam).
And please understand that I DO feel sorry for Vincent, just as I would for any abused victim that ends up lashing out in anger at the world over what has happened. Sadly, abused victims will also sometimes try to take the law into their own hands, as Vincent does, which leads to horrible and often unforeseen consequences and legal ramifications. PLEASE let me be understood as saying that I feel sorry for Vincent and sympathize. But remember, Vincent chooses to go after Bob WHEN CATHERINE IS DRIVING THE CAR. Catherine could have died. (And when his rage had subsided and his memories and rationale returned, Vincent would have NEVER been able to forgive himself.) She certainly experienced head trauma when the car is forced off the road. Catherine has had concussions how many times during the series? Such trauma can lead to serious seizure conditions and other medical issues. And Vincent doesn't check on an unconscious Cat in the car. As a doctor, Vincent, of all people, would know about the risks for Catherine by his actions. So Vincent doesn't consider anything but revenge. (And remember that although never discussed in the series, Catherine was coming out of a head trauma, pleading with Vincent and trying to get him not to kill Bob in such a cold-blooded fashion, crying, traumatized ALL when the gun went off. Catherine is a good shot. She seemed trying to wound, not kill. Again, we can agree to disagree on this issue, but Catherine certainly didn't want Vincent dead, either in that moment or later.
Had Vincent taken out Bob in self-defense, you would hear nothing but cheers from me, quite frankly. However, he chooses to stalk and engage in an attempt at cold-blooded murder, not caring about the innocent caught in between (Catherine). There is where I see reprehensible actions, even if those actions are understood (and quite frankly, I sympathize. Bob ruined Vincent's life, all while knowing how much Vincent loved Catherine and had protected her in the past.) Bob even knew that Vincent was a good man because he tells Vincent (as his handler) repeatedly that innocents will die if he doesn't take care of the beasts on the list. So he knows that matters to Vincent. So Bob is basically evil incarnate at this point, no real argument there. Bob manipulates the situation to get rid of the "mess" of Muirfield (no explanation ever given for WHY he waited so long to go after the beasts on the list) and to avoid being connected himself with the "mistakes" of Muirfield's past so HIS career and legacy within the FBI are preserved, per Tyler in one of the first episodes. Bob considers it his "right" to make choices for Catherine and just doesn't care that he damages Catherine so much by interfering in her life. So Bob is a really damaging person that needed to be stopped. And Bob had certainly crossed that moral line himself from which each character has to come back from this season. Doesn't mean Vincent's way of doing things was the right one, even if understood.
One of the themes for Season 2 of BATB was that once an individual crosses the moral line of murdering for one's own need for revenge or possession of another person, the person is a Beast and cannot come back from that. Vincent himself is later glad, at season's end, that he did not kill Bob. Vincent goes back and forth between acting on rage, but by season's end, he agrees with Catherine that he cannot lose himself again. Even Bob comes around. And I will say, both men come around due, in part, to Catherine's insistence on maintaining that moral integrity and upholding of the law. Everybody learns to work together. Even old Bob (and I would have thought him beyond redemption). Bob is actually TRYING to help Catherine save Vincent in 222. So Redemption is also a theme for Season 2 and why some characters (Gabe coming to mind) fail in their attempts to get there.
And I admit that what I LOVED most about Season 2 is that it takes the individual characters realizing that no one is an island, and that it takes working together and caring/loving another person that brings out the best in each one of them (or worst, like Gabe). Catherine and Vincent really do save each other, recognize their mistakes, and heal and become stronger together. So the very episodes I least enjoy are when Catherine and Vincent are at their lowest, most isolated and most selfish moments. I appreciate the end result but cringed during the build-up.
Arwenfan, I also haven't dealt with the Catherine character issues yet because we haven't gotten to those episodes yet. However, I will just say that while Catherine was repeatedly saying to Vincent (202, 203, 206 and 207 come to mind. 208 as well.) that there is another way other than just murdering someone, you will remember that when Catherine thought that Sam had blown up Vincent with the CIA server, Catherine cuffs Sam and says, "if Vincent is dead, you're dead" meaning that she had no intention of letting him live if she had found Vincent deceased. So Catherine would have thrown it all away herself on revenge had Vincent been dead, and she had no "inner beast" or memory wipe to excuse her conduct. Vincent calls Catherine's actions as "beasting out" in 221 after the whole almost-killing of Gabe in that episode. And Vincent points out that Catherine doesn't have a healthy outlet/way of dealing with her own issues instead opting to try to manage and control everyone else. Catherine can say one thing and completely do another when rage overcomes her. Catherine also appeared very selfish and unable to understand at times this past season. Yet, she too, had been traumatized. By no means do I actually morally excuse or condone her actions anymore than Vincent's. Still felt so sorry for them as characters due to all that they had had to put up with. ULTIMATELY, I see Vincent AND Catherine as having had to have hit a moral and personal low this season, an almost self-imploding of their characters due to trauma in order to re-build themselves back up, together. And they come back stronger and better, both individually and together. But meant they had to hit real character lows in order to raise themselves back up (which I really didn't enjoy at times).
So hope I have explained myself now. Again, can't cover every range of character-changing by each character per episode. Just saying why I personally didn't enjoy the episode (although appreciated the ultimate overall theme of the season from the standpoint of VinCat ending up better and stronger after having been tested). I can just personally state that for myself, I wish the characters DIDN'T have to be brought so low (I mean, it felt like character assassination for multiple characters this season, at times!), and I would have liked some more info in certain areas to see where the characters were coming from so that I could appreciate the end result even more.
To end, Arwenfan, Anapi, Jefferen and others, I am feeling that I am NOT actually really disagreeing with anyone. Just pointing out other possibilities and possible interpretations to provide additional info, character-wise, and things I would have liked to have seen on my screen to resolve why characters did what they did. At the same time, I CAN appreciate (and enjoy) debating or reading commentary with all the different interpretations of each character's actions and motivations. Arwenfan, I never thought of Catherine actually trying to shoot to kill Vincent. I don't agree with that viewpoint, but I can see where you are coming from. Again, can appreciate another's viewpoint even if hating that the writers ever had to go there during Season 2 (THAT is probably still my issue--why go there. At some point, it is too low, so to speak, for characters to be). Particularly if it means that the character could be affected again in similar circumstances during the third season. You never know when the writers will bring something back up again, particularly if there actually were unresolved issues (like episode "Cold Case" did for a few season 1 plotholes that had had to be dropped due to other issues playing out onscreen). And while I enjoyed the end result of Season 2, each one of us is entitled to have hated (or loved) the road to get there.
In case it is STILL not obvious at this point, I LOVE BOTH Vincent and Catherine. So many of their failings actually make you love them more, in some ways, due to what they have had to overcome. (I certainly applauded Catherine informing Sam that she was coming back to kill him if Vincent were dead whether it was the wrong moral action or not. It showed how much Catherine loved Vincent and how protective of him she was, despite what we might have earlier seen in previous episodes.) And Catherine tells Vincent in 211 that she forgot he was not the actual enemy due to all that was going on and resolved to protect him. And she loses it with Gabe in 221 due to being so frightened out of her mind that Vincent has been re-captured and experimented all over again, right after finally coming back to himself. And Vincent going back and forth as to wanting to kill Gabe, but he ultimately realizes that he cannot lose himself and Catherine again. And he lists Bob as being in the list of people needing protection in 222 because he DOES love Catherine so AND can even see merit in Bob's trying to prevent Catherine being hurt or killed in the crossfire. And Bob is also struggling to find a way to help Catherine save Vincent as well by 222. So both really come full-circle and then some. LOVED those episodes, no question. And LOVE the different nuances of character interpretation that each member of the forum brings to the discussion. Hope that is also clear.
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 8, 2014 10:57:04 GMT -5
Arwenfan, Umm, I think I am being misinterpreted here. I wasn't actually disagreeing with you in my second post. I think we see things more or less the same, overall. I do find some of Vincent's choices reprehensible, from my own personal moral standpoint (and what I admittedly wanted to see on my screen for VinCat). However, my whole post argued that I DID get that Vincent's judgment was severely compromised by all of the trauma, lack of memories, etc. (Hey, personally, I would have actually enjoyed seeing Vincent kill Bob in the moment. From a certain viewpoint and personal satisfaction, Bob really deserved to die at that point. HOWEVER, we supposedly have laws and a legal system for a reason. Plus, if we went solely by actions, Vincent would have deserved a death sentence for what he did to the innocents abroad when he and his other soldiers were first injected by Muirfield. However, as soon as Vincent developed control and got his reason back, he certainly didn't want to kill. The beast side of him was so uncontrollable then that his actions would have certainly had a defense. And I even think Vincent also had some PTSD symptoms this season that seemed to be coming through.) Just because I don't like some action taken by a character doesn't mean that I don't understand why that action actually occurred. A theme of BATB through both seasons has been that even vigilantes like Vincent can go too far and do too much, thus compromising themselves and risking losing themselves to rage and revenge (think this is where they were trying to go with Sam). And please understand that I DO feel sorry for Vincent, just as I would for any abused victim that ends up lashing out in anger at the world over what has happened. Sadly, abused victims will also sometimes try to take the law into their own hands, as Vincent does, which leads to horrible and often unforeseen consequences and legal ramifications. PLEASE let me be understood as saying that I feel sorry for Vincent and sympathize. But remember, Vincent chooses to go after Bob WHEN CATHERINE IS DRIVING THE CAR. Catherine could have died. (And when his rage had subsided and his memories and rationale returned, Vincent would have NEVER been able to forgive himself.) She certainly experienced head trauma when the car is forced off the road. Catherine has had concussions how many times during the series? Such trauma can lead to serious seizure conditions and other medical issues. And Vincent doesn't check on an unconscious Cat in the car. As a doctor, Vincent, of all people, would know about the risks for Catherine by his actions. So Vincent doesn't consider anything but revenge. (And remember that although never discussed in the series, Catherine was coming out of a head trauma, pleading with Vincent and trying to get him not to kill Bob in such a cold-blooded fashion, crying, traumatized ALL when the gun went off. Catherine is a good shot. She seemed trying to wound, not kill. Again, we can agree to disagree on this issue, but Catherine certainly didn't want Vincent dead, either in that moment or later. Sorry that I'm just getting back to you...I work nights so my posting time is very erratic. I understand your POV and what you're saying. It's just that I'm not all hung up on Catherine being in the car or the innocent victim when Vincent was going after Bob. The circumstances these people have been put into are extraordinary and all I can say is that I have enormous empathy and sympathy for Vincent; therefore, I am very understanding of his reactions and positions during this whole handler/beast-hunter mess. Once Vincent snapped, he snapped. He wasn't thinking about anything or anyone other than revenge. Right or wrong, morally or legally unacceptable, that's just a fact in this case. Human rage is a powerful and deadly thing on its own, how much more destructive when combined with the DNA of several animal species? I think we've seen the answer to that over the course of the season. And finally, for better or worse, I'm in Vincent's corner. Always. I love Vincat, but Vincent's my guy and the character I root for most above everyone else in BATB.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 8, 2014 12:13:59 GMT -5
Arwenfan,
I agree. Once Vincent snapped, he definitely snapped. And I think that is what led to his being an inadequate mentor for Tori. It takes her death and the remorse that follows for Vincent to realize that what she needed, first and foremost, was someone to be both mentor and friend, NOT lover. Tori needed beast stability first, then the rest to follow once she had determined some level of actual control. Tori needed something more than being taught how to develop her beast powers. She needed someone to teach her the wisdom behind WHEN to use said powers and when to trust and work with others. Tori even beasts-out at Vincent in 212 and ties up Dana, before seeing Vincent's reaction to her actions. Once she has, she later calls Vincent. So Tori LISTENS to Vincent's better judgment, when it is good, sound judgment. But like you said, unfortunately Tori has come to Vincent at the worst possible time as her Beast power helps to be that one thing that pushes Vincent over the edge in the first place. It is sad and tragic. Also why I feel for Vincent as well.
And the journey back for Vincent, particularly 211 to Vincent's speech in 216 to Sam is so totally what makes me just love Vincent and puts me back in his corner. My earlier commentaries just point out that Catherine, too, is basically in the same position as Vincent due to so much loss and questioning of herself. BOTH have their own independent journey to make before they can come back together. And with VinCat, the actions of one cause the unwise actions of the other until both deal with their own independent issues and doubts in order to come back together. I was just trying to articulate Vincent's Journey to a better, more improved Vincent in the Favorite Episodes thread, and I say it a lot better over there.
But I do get it. I wanted Vincent back (and still manage to be a wee bit mad at him for 208, even if I get where he was coming from). I can't stand to see Vincent this way, I admit, so I just can't re-watch 207 through 210. I know Vincent REALLY loves Catherine and that he WILL find his way back, but I enjoy seeing him when he is coming back to himself in episode 211 forward. Can't stand to see the in pain and snapped version. Doesn't mean that I don't still love him always! But I am VINCAT at heart, and I tend to be equally mad at both for putting me through the pain of their loss! I love what they bring to each other and the way their relationship is so much more solid now. And I recognize that it took 207 through 210 to get there. (I just don't want to watch them in pain and doing bad things. And I will be saying that about Cat's acts when we get to those episodes as well.) So I love the End of the Journey (just don't want to see some of the nasty pit-stops on the way).
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00jinx
Army Recruit
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Post by 00jinx on Sept 8, 2014 13:22:49 GMT -5
So V already knows he is not completely in control, he's had the experience in the woods with Tori ....and then when he kills her father....he's a smart boy and well trained...really? ? He can't put 2 and 2 together? ? This was soley the problem i had. the flip-flopping of his character in the beginning. lolol
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Sept 8, 2014 14:53:02 GMT -5
I honestly liked the idea of Vincent struggle. I didn't like the way it was executed. The writing wasn't bad at all I just thought they didn't have to have Vincent kiss Tori or Tori kiss Vincent as much as the kiss itself didn't bother me I always felt it wasn't needed to make the point that Tori had an effect on Vincent. It was already obvious when he lost control both times. The first when he choked Reynolds and the other one during dinner. I liked that aspect and the comedic part of it. The trying to figure the code word and the cookie choking scene was great and very funny.
I don't blame the writers it's what they're told to write. So all main story lines came from TPTB.
Again this is one of my favorite early season 2 episodes. Again the kiss didn't bother me it was that it wasn't necessary and shouldn't have been there in the first place that bothered me.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 8, 2014 16:45:45 GMT -5
Here is where I had a problem with the kiss. (And yes, it is because of the potential ICK factor of what happens when emotionally vulnerable young people coming from abusive homes immediately engage in dependency-type relationships without knowing the other person, particularly when said other person is older and presented as potential Teacher/Mentor. And dealing with violence issues/impulses as well as tragic events/trauma. To sum it up: like the potential "domestic violence" ramifications that some saw in 202, did we REALLY have to go there RIGHT THEN?)
Tori was an emotionally vulnerable girl, probably barely legal, who has been abused and isolated. No real world experience, except for the horror she encounters. And her father was the only meaningful relationship in her life at the time. And although his daughter probably amped up his own Beast rage (which I wish they would have definitely covered), it WAS clear that Tori loved her father. So unless there are severe Attachment issues that we don't know about, the fact that Tori within a couple of weeks of her father's death BY VINCENT, (yes, I know, self-defense. I'm not bashing Vincent for the killing as Curt was out of control at the time and would have killed others. And what we see in 207 is a real amping up of his power seemingly without the reason to help him control it, in Vincent's emotional state, leads Vincent to do what he does.) Tori is kissing him. And this isn't just a random kiss. Tori clearly pursues Vincent thereafter. I know that is after Vincent saves her again. Still, without having dealt with the "daddy issues," you can't HELP but wonder if the writers were potentially leaving themselves with an OUT of having Tori, deep down, want to ruin Vincent's life by taking away/destroying that which really mattered the most to him AND causing severe emotional pain to Catherine who still HAS her biological father, although he is a criminal like her own father was. In Tori's mind, Catherine wants HER father alive despite his trying to have killed the love of her life and Tori herself, while not getting them justice (actually revenge). And coming from a strictly affluent lifestyle, Tori wants what she wants and really can't understand damage done to someone else.
So Tori is not in a good place. And we have seen through the first handful of episodes that Vincent is unwilling to trust Catherine despite multiple accounts of people telling him they were in love. Vincent takes his time to trust Catherine and always ends up taking two steps back each time regarding his suspicions of Catherine. So Vincent JUST GIVING IN to the "primal pull," without knowing anything further about Tori, just makes no good sense. I mean, Vincent has just said to Tori, "you mean I'm responsible for you" or something to that effect. So Vincent really knows that Tori's leaning into him and depending on him is setting her up to expect more (as JT points out to Vincent in episode 210). Vincent has all the warning signs.
Tori needed a mentor, no question. However, I guess my problem is with why student/teacher relationships are illegal or grounds from firing someone from their job. We see that when someone is in the role of Teacher/Mentor, they need to model the right kind of behaviors and provide the right kind of guidance. Because with an age gap and needing to trust explicitly those that are teaching you NOT to take advantage of you when you are vulnerable, the hope is then that the Student can concentrate on learning the skills needed WITHOUT becoming obsessed/confused, etc. by the personal relationship with the Teacher. By letting the relationship go sexual so fast, it compromises the whole Mentoring thing. Vincent teaches Tori about her powers, but he does not teach her guidance/when to use the powers. Vincent snaps and goes all Beast Is Best. Impulse first, the heck with the consequences. So Tori has no real guidance in how to use her new-found powers responsibly. And after Vincent begins to get his reason back, he starts distancing himself from Tori, who due to the sexual relationship and dependence she now has in Vincent, becomes DESPERATE to do anything to keep Vincent. Which truly is a Recipe for Disaster.
So my feeling is that Tori, as a young and relatively isolated rich girl who has never been taught how to do a thing for herself, was at her most vulnerable. At the very least, Vincent needed to have told her that he wanted to help her get control first, then see what kind of relationship could develop. Stability first. Self-reliance first. HOWEVER, as others have said as well as myself, VINCENT WAS IN NO CONDITION to provide that dependability and good judgment since he had gone over to the Dark Side (for lack of a better term).
So again, I did feel icky in the way the writers chose to go with this. While it makes sense (sadly, for our society) that two people would think that their two unstable wrongs would make a right, the casting of Tori as the young (TOO YOUNG for Vincent), isolated girl that had never known independence put into the hands of someone that should have known better (but couldn't do to the damage he himself had).
I'm just saying that I almost wish Tori had been more on an age-par with Vincent and that it wasn't such a Teacher/Student type of deal/feel to it. Especially adding the abuse elements and death of her father, her only real relationship left. I guess it is like the "domestic violence" potential of Episode 202. At least thereafter, the writers seemed to really start listening to Beasties and quit pushing such potentially controversial relationship-implications at us. I mean, yeah, the Beasties wanted Catherine to kill Gabe. And the writers give this to us. Twice, no less. But both times, the writers basically make it clear that Catherine (and Vincent) have no choice. The writers hype up the strength of Vincent and Catherine's characters for the final six episodes OR when weaknesses are revealed, have the characters ADMIT where they are wrong, and SHOW how they will do better in the future. And will look to getting solid support/advice from significant others before taking action if they see they could be vulnerable (like Catherine having JT watch her with Gabe in 221). Recognize When You Need Help comes to be a theme for Season 2.
Yes, I get where all the above was part of the journey that the writers/showrunners chose to take us on. I'm just saying that I could have maybe done with less of the controversy of the nature that it was (violence/abusive relationships, vulnerability of women, etc.). I mean, we lost a LOT of viewers for a reason. Some people truly couldn't stomach some of the potential ick factor. Myself, still love BATB. LOVED the end result of the journey. As I said before in another post, I just could have done without a few particularly ICKY pit-stops along that journey. Hope I have explained why I had a problem with the Tori sexual relationship coming on so fast and why the kiss just BOTHERED me all wrong. (AND I freely admit that my VinCat heart probably would have had a problem with ANY triangles for ANY reasons, but I like to think that I would have been more open had circumstances been different.)
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 8, 2014 21:21:22 GMT -5
I agree that Tori was emotionally vulnerable. However, we don't know if she was abused beyond the time we saw her father beast out and choking her. Also, I did not get the impression that Tori was 18 or even 20. I think she was older than that, but seemed younger because she'd been over protected. I also didn't look at Vincent as being Yoda to Tori's Luke; so I'm not putting all of the heaviness you see into the "relationship" between them. Perhaps the V/T kiss wasn't necessary, but neither was the G/C kiss in Operation Fake Date. Honestly, I think some of this stuff is done just to provoke us; like the suggestion of a one time shove (under extraordinary circumstances) being made out to be the equal of REAL domestic abuse irked the crap out me. IMO, Tori was meant to be the dark side of beastliness...that her influence was meant to seduce and bring out the worst in Vincent. I think the arc would have played a zillion times better if they'd selected another actress (one who could have pulled off seduction and danger), and if they had given the story line the time it deserved (instead of giving us silly scenes of Tess beating us over the head with how much Gabe liked Catherine and Bob running around giving orders for meaningless beast kills). Yes, you have explained why you were bothered, but for me, this isn't real life and I can't let myself get bogged down in overwhelming detail to the point where I can't relate to what is going on in a fantasy world with my peeps.
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Post by Nelly on Sept 10, 2014 5:48:56 GMT -5
I agree that Tori was emotionally vulnerable. However, we don't know if she was abused beyond the time we saw her father beast out and choking her. Also, I did not get the impression that Tori was 18 or even 20. I think she was older than that, but seemed younger because she'd been over protected. I also didn't look at Vincent as being Yoda to Tori's Luke; so I'm not putting all of the heaviness you see into the "relationship" between them. Perhaps the V/T kiss wasn't necessary, but neither was the G/C kiss in Operation Fake Date. Honestly, I think some of this stuff is done just to provoke us; like the suggestion of a one time shove (under extraordinary circumstances) being made out to be the equal of REAL domestic abuse irked the crap out me. IMO, Tori was meant to be the dark side of beastliness...that her influence was meant to seduce and bring out the worst in Vincent. I think the arc would have played a zillion times better if they'd selected another actress (one who could have pulled off seduction and danger), and if they had given the story line the time it deserved (instead of giving us silly scenes of Tess beating us over the head with how much Gabe liked Catherine and Bob running around giving orders for meaningless beast kills). Yes, you have explained why you were bothered, but for me, this isn't real life and I can't let myself get bogged down in overwhelming detail to the point where I can't relate to what is going on in a fantasy world with my peeps. I sooo agree with everything you put in this post. BTW this is like one of my fav episodes.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Sept 10, 2014 12:32:04 GMT -5
The Tori arch would have been difficult to get through, regardless....but what was really disappointing was the way they did nor comit to anything. Was she a victim, was she an antagonist to C...she was both and neither. What was her relationship with Vincent, how did he give into it or fight it.....how did he find his way back, where was the struggle to break loose of the hold Tori supposedly had on him.....if it was there, I missed it all! Exactly how I feel. In fact the words "what an utter waste" slip dramatically through my head when I think about all the Tori stuff. Whatever they were trying to accomplish failed epically in my book. It was disappointing, and pretty much, without exception, it was disappointing from the beginning to the end. There was never any "proof of life" or quantifiable meaning to the madness. What was the point, ultimately? Was it not too shallow? I feel like they made her character out to be a blood diamond of sorts, mined from the ruins of ... well... of just about everything, but a beast of a beauty sparkling in the sun, and the blood on the hands of those who freed her, it seemed like an idea that just got lost in translation. We were left with a lump of coal, and very little, if no meaning at all. But I agree, lack of commitment to - well anything- made her character feel shallow and superfluous.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 11, 2014 9:59:19 GMT -5
I guess that is the real problem I had with all of this. You never get the sense of Tori being anything other than a victim. You have no real groundwork of ANY kind of life for her other than trotting after Vincent. She must have had SOME connections and wherewithal to have arranged for the press conference and talk show appearance. So you would think some brains there somewhere. The relationship basically started Thanksgiving, and Tori must have been dead by about end of January/first week of February since even though Cat had said she was ready to start a relationship with Gabe, that didn't gear up until Valentine's Day.
So the hiatus was longer than the Vincent/Tori relationship. And we all suspect that had Vincent not felt so betrayed by Cat as a result of the shooting, it probably wouldn't have happened at all. Vincent was alone and bleeding, and Tori did whatever he wanted. That is what it came down to. Once Vincent regained any kind of sense (after the hostage situation at the precinct), he realized that he COULD trust Cat, and Vincent ended up re-evaluating himself and his decisions. And the guilt started thereafter. After all, Vincent had spent the first half of the season being unable to get Cat out of his head, despite not being able to remember her. So THERE was the real connection, as we all well know. It is literally a series of unfortunate events that leads to the relationship, coupled with wounded feelings and Tori's powers all coming together for the perfect storm. We all have literally spent far longer on analyzing the character and the reasons the whole thing happened than did the writers, based on what little we actually saw on the screen. Tori was so incredibly unpopular in the early presentation, and the things happening in this episode and the next were so troubling to Beasties that the writers rapidly backed off and killed Tori off a lot earlier than the plan initially intended. So we will never really know what it was about (other than REALLY costing us viewers and that wretched, angry feeling in your stomach for some of us).
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