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Post by jefferen on Sept 1, 2014 20:48:07 GMT -5
I can watch this episode, but its one of my least favorite episodes. I think the episode had so much potential but they dropped the ball quite a bit. I don't like the pace of the episode, to me its kinda boring and slow. And I didn't like the kiss. It pains me to see Vincat kiss anyone but each other
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 20:56:23 GMT -5
The Tori arch would have been difficult to get through, regardless....but what was really disappointing was the way they did nor comit to anything. Was she a victim, was she an antagonist to C...she was both and neither. What was her relationship with Vincent, how did he give into it or fight it.....how did he find his way back, where was the struggle to break loose of the hold Tori supposedly had on him.....if it was there, I missed it all!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 21:00:10 GMT -5
Did Gabe reLly have to bring Tori along with him? ? Really? ? Why is V wearing his jacket IN the house? LOL how would you rather have him in?? Do I really need to explain, VinCat❤Destined!!!! LOL
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Sept 1, 2014 21:12:50 GMT -5
LOL how would you rather have him in?? Do I really need to explain, VinCat❤Destined!!!! LOL LOL NOPE! I can read your mind ...
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Sept 1, 2014 21:13:55 GMT -5
I can watch this episode, but its one of my least favorite episodes. I think the episode had so much potential but they dropped the ball quite a bit. I don't like the pace of the episode, to me its kinda boring and slow. And I didn't like the kiss. It pains me to see Vincat kiss anyone but each other Exactly how I felt then and now
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Sept 2, 2014 1:14:13 GMT -5
ok I am one of the few (if anyone here) but I really really liked this episode for a range of reasons! and it was such a relief to watch after episodes 5 and 6. I need to go to work but will explain why in the evening
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rose
Army Recruit
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Post by rose on Sept 2, 2014 3:21:33 GMT -5
I love how V is still making an honest attempt to make things right w/ Catherine and try and do whats right by her even after everything happened w/ Bob. He still has empathy for the situation and ultimately wanted what was best for Cat. I think he wanted this even after he told Cat to walk away and when they were at odds a b4 Cat shot him in 2x08. It was always about giving Cat a better life and protecting her. I think though after Cat shot him that moment hurt V so much and then w/ Tori just fanning the fire every second w/ her power he let go and became angry and let himself go to the darker side. I think he really thought Cat had given up on him, and them and he really didn't have anything left to keep him from going beast, so why not and Tori just made everything 10x worse so V could never actually work through his feelings That's the way I see it as well. I also think when Kat shot Vincent, he was angry and really thought they were really over for good and Tori happened to be there and willing to jump in. The episode has some of my favourite scenes though before the kiss. In this episode I was not sure JT and T would work. But they grew on me. Their kiss was kinda akward to me at first.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 4, 2014 10:03:30 GMT -5
I found this episode noTORIous the first time through but found nuggets of information through the second re-watch with the TV Guide Season 2 marathon. However, couldn't do another watch. This is my attempt to explain WHY this episode left me feeling so uncomfortable. My frustration with this episode, in part, was that although the second watching of the episode showed me where the writers were trying to go, as many others before me have mentioned, several points or potential issues just got dropped or were left unexplained. And I NEEDED to have understood some of those issues to have made sense out of the whole Tori/Vincent debacle.
First up of my problems with the ep: Vincent. Okay, you really have to wonder at this point if his love is even WORTH having, based on the way Vincent was portrayed on the television screen the first half of season 2. We earlier in the season found out that Vincent pursued Gabby but then went back to Alex. JT tried to explain it away by saying that Vincent and Alex had "grown apart," but that explanation does not hold against the Season 1 presentation of Alex and Vincent's relationship. We saw ALL those letters back and forth between the two, and Vincent clearly never told Alex about Gabby, since Alex seemed to see herself and Vincent as having "always" been together since childhood. So Vincent so readily "forgot" about Alex in the moment for some quick screw time with Gabriella. And NOW we see how Vincent doesn't even appear to fight the Tori connection. I mean, was he fighting it? Could he fight it? At the very least, Vincent had just been making out with Catherine in her father's upstairs bedroom. If Catherine HADN'T interrupted, what would have happened? In 205 and in this episode, Vincent is portrayed as a guy that easily turns to another woman and is unable or unwilling to refuse what is offered to him by said woman when the least bit of conflict comes into the relationship with his significant other.
Second problem for me: Vincent didn't even seem to TRY to fight for VinCat. Yes, Vincent did mention that he would "talk" with Catherine about the Tori kiss. And Catherine seemed WAY more inclined to give Vincent an excuse, as she always does. At this point, I was practically yelling at my screen that this was NOT "epic love" by any stretch of the imagination. I feel that the Bob/Vincent PORCH SCENE is therefore CRITICAL to understanding Vincent's mindset, yet I can't really see if the writers meant it that way or not. In the Porch Scene, Bob basically THREATENS to go after CAT if Vincent does not do his bidding and break up with her. And Bob is able to play on Vincent's Season 1 insecurities regarding the relationship, as Vincent felt then that a relationship between himself and Catherine could only lead to harm for her. I could therefore see Vincent TRYING to set-up a kiss with Tori in order to drive Cat away due to his feeling unworthy. HOWEVER, I didn't buy that was happening since Vincent was kissing Tori BEFORE he knew Cat was there, so I didn't feel it was a "Vincent set-up" to get Catherine to leave.
In this episode, Vincent continually takes the path of least resistance (whether kissing Tori, accepting Bob's assessment of him, trying to just have sex with Cat rather than actually deal with and discuss their issues--which in Vincent's mind, seem really insignificant until it all blows up in his face). Vincent never really fights for anything, never takes a stand, and CERTAINLY NEVER FIGHTS FOR VINCAT. Vincent could have chosen to stand up to Bob and tell him that Cat makes her OWN decisions, something that he is able to tell Gabe in 216. Vincent also should have tried to figure out the Tori thing rather than just somehow "accepting" that he is the kind of guy that would CHOOSE to kiss someone else, not his girlfriend, just because he felt like it in the moment.
I know this episode is just the build-up to show how far away from himself Vincent really has fallen. I mean, by next episode, Vincent has chosen to take a stand to fight for REVENGE rather than for Love, if you could even find Vincent really capable of such an emotion/state of being at this point in the season (and yes, I found him seeking humanity before Tori arrived on the scene. 206 forward really skewered everything for me). And I really questioned if Vincent was worth saving during these particular Tori episodes. AGAIN, like so many others, I would have been happy with Vincent (or others) at least QUESTIONING the affect of Tori's powers. Yet no one really seems to question why Vincent would just throw Cat away so easily. And THERE was where I had the real problem.
Other thing to note that I missed during the first watch: Vincent's touching Tori's hand CAUSES her to beast out. So the effect was MUTUAL and seemed to continually hype up one another. And Tori IMMEDIATELY succombs to the pull by seeking Vincent out and kissing him, etc. Tori INSISTING on Gabe keeping her with him on Thanksgiving (I mean, seriously, who does that? Gabe is a STRANGER to her, and yet there it is.) shows just how completely needy and dependent that she is. Tori immediately wants to surrender to the pull. But Vincent had so much more to fight for, even if he was doubting himself. Vincent so easily throwing himself into the Tori thing and then trying to undo everything once he realizes who Bob actually is BUT then so easily flipping again due to Tori's suggestions just made me disgusted. Again, I thought that "epic Love" warranted an actual fight or at least some conversations and investigations about WHY things were going the way they were.
At any rate, hope I have explained why I so LOATHE this episode and just couldn't do another re-watch of it. I'm VinCat to the core, and my heart was broken right along with Cat's. That is probably also why I could understand Cat's actions and condone her choices so much easier after what I felt Vincent put her through. Although then I would get to feeling sorry for Vincent for the torture and complete personality overhaul that he had endured. So just felt all-around BAD and not enjoying BATB at that point in the season. I could see why fans left in droves. I could never see how the writers thought the way they presented things could ever make true Beasties happy, given the unexplored issues and threads of explanation that I would have needed to stomach all of this. Really, there are not enough Tums in the universe to help my digestive issues through this part of Season 2. I can see why no one was eating onscreen either, although it was Thanksgiving!
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Post by jefferen on Sept 4, 2014 11:46:29 GMT -5
I found this episode noTORIous the first time through but found nuggets of information through the second re-watch with the TV Guide Season 2 marathon. However, couldn't do another watch. This is my attempt to explain WHY this episode left me feeling so uncomfortable. My frustration with this episode, in part, was that although the second watching of the episode showed me where the writers were trying to go, as many others before me have mentioned, several points or potential issues just got dropped or were left unexplained. And I NEEDED to have understood some of those issues to have made sense out of the whole Tori/Vincent debacle. First up of my problems with the ep: Vincent. Okay, you really have to wonder at this point if his love is even WORTH having, based on the way Vincent was portrayed on the television screen the first half of season 2. We earlier in the season found out that Vincent pursued Gabby but then went back to Alex. JT tried to explain it away by saying that Vincent and Alex had "grown apart," but that explanation does not hold against the Season 1 presentation of Alex and Vincent's relationship. We saw ALL those letters back and forth between the two, and Vincent clearly never told Alex about Gabby, since Alex seemed to see herself and Vincent as having "always" been together since childhood. So Vincent so readily "forgot" about Alex in the moment for some quick screw time with Gabriella. And NOW we see how Vincent doesn't even appear to fight the Tori connection. I mean, was he fighting it? Could he fight it? At the very least, Vincent had just been making out with Catherine in her father's upstairs bedroom. If Catherine HADN'T interrupted, what would have happened? In 205 and in this episode, Vincent is portrayed as a guy that easily turns to another woman and is unable or unwilling to refuse what is offered to him by said woman when the least bit of conflict comes into the relationship with his significant other. Second problem for me: Vincent didn't even seem to TRY to fight for VinCat. Yes, Vincent did mention that he would "talk" with Catherine about the Tori kiss. And Catherine seemed WAY more inclined to give Vincent an excuse, as she always does. At this point, I was practically yelling at my screen that this was NOT "epic love" by any stretch of the imagination. I feel that the Bob/Vincent PORCH SCENE is therefore CRITICAL to understanding Vincent's mindset, yet I can't really see if the writers meant it that way or not. In the Porch Scene, Bob basically THREATENS to go after CAT if Vincent does not do his bidding and break up with her. And Bob is able to play on Vincent's Season 1 insecurities regarding the relationship, as Vincent felt then that a relationship between himself and Catherine could only lead to harm for her. I could therefore see Vincent TRYING to set-up a kiss with Tori in order to drive Cat away due to his feeling unworthy. HOWEVER, I didn't buy that was happening since Vincent was kissing Tori BEFORE he knew Cat was there, so I didn't feel it was a "Vincent set-up" to get Catherine to leave. In this episode, Vincent continually takes the path of least resistance (whether kissing Tori, accepting Bob's assessment of him, trying to just have sex with Cat rather than actually deal with and discuss their issues--which in Vincent's mind, seem really insignificant until it all blows up in his face). Vincent never really fights for anything, never takes a stand, and CERTAINLY NEVER FIGHTS FOR VINCAT. Vincent could have chosen to stand up to Bob and tell him that Cat makes her OWN decisions, something that he is able to tell Gabe in 216. Vincent also should have tried to figure out the Tori thing rather than just somehow "accepting" that he is the kind of guy that would CHOOSE to kiss someone else, not his girlfriend, just because he felt like it in the moment. I know this episode is just the build-up to show how far away from himself Vincent really has fallen. I mean, by next episode, Vincent has chosen to take a stand to fight for REVENGE rather than for Love, if you could even find Vincent really capable of such an emotion/state of being at this point in the season (and yes, I found him seeking humanity before Tori arrived on the scene. 206 forward really skewered everything for me). And I really questioned if Vincent was worth saving during these particular Tori episodes. AGAIN, like so many others, I would have been happy with Vincent (or others) at least QUESTIONING the affect of Tori's powers. Yet no one really seems to question why Vincent would just throw Cat away so easily. And THERE was where I had the real problem. Other thing to note that I missed during the first watch: Vincent's touching Tori's hand CAUSES her to beast out. So the effect was MUTUAL and seemed to continually hype up one another. And Tori IMMEDIATELY succombs to the pull by seeking Vincent out and kissing him, etc. Tori INSISTING on Gabe keeping her with him on Thanksgiving (I mean, seriously, who does that? Gabe is a STRANGER to her, and yet there it is.) shows just how completely needy and dependent that she is. Tori immediately wants to surrender to the pull. But Vincent had so much more to fight for, even if he was doubting himself. Vincent so easily throwing himself into the Tori thing and then trying to undo everything once he realizes who Bob actually is BUT then so easily flipping again due to Tori's suggestions just made me disgusted. Again, I thought that "epic Love" warranted an actual fight or at least some conversations and investigations about WHY things were going the way they were. At any rate, hope I have explained why I so LOATHE this episode and just couldn't do another re-watch of it. I'm VinCat to the core, and my heart was broken right along with Cat's. That is probably also why I could understand Cat's actions and condone her choices so much easier after what I felt Vincent put her through. Although then I would get to feeling sorry for Vincent for the torture and complete personality overhaul that he had endured. So just felt all-around BAD and not enjoying BATB at that point in the season. I could see why fans left in droves. I could never see how the writers thought the way they presented things could ever make true Beasties happy, given the unexplored issues and threads of explanation that I would have needed to stomach all of this. Really, there are not enough Tums in the universe to help my digestive issues through this part of Season 2. I can see why no one was eating onscreen either, although it was Thanksgiving! As always you nailed it! The lack of direction, and things were just all over the place. I wish the writers couldve edited some scenes or taken some out so we couldve gotten a minute or two of explanation & exploration of certain things that everyone was doing especially V. I think because they did that like I said before, they dropped the ball & it actually hurt the pace of the episode. Instead of explaining, they just provided us w/ scenes that we really didnt need to have or couldve been shortened, so i think by doing that it actually slowed the pace of the episode down to the point I was bored bc it was a jumbled mess with no real outlook, (im lost for the right word) to where the story was going PS: by the way you provide such great insight. I am still looking forward to & hoping that you do more indepth analysis to your favorite scenes that you didnt post about & your worst scenes/moments
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 5, 2014 2:14:14 GMT -5
Obviously his attack on Reynolds was suppose to show how hard it was for Vincent to control himself in front of tori. .Again setting up for the kiss seen around the world and caused the show to lose viewers I MO More like Vincent wasn't able to control himself around Tori. Her presence was pretty much explosive.
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 5, 2014 2:15:37 GMT -5
At first I cringed when I saw JT&T but then they grew on me. But at first it was awkward. Didn't like the scene itself. I still don't ship them or really care about them as a couple.
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 5, 2014 2:16:25 GMT -5
OMG how I hate V kissing Tori!!! I had forgot how bad it feels! Not as much as I HATE seeing Catherine kiss Gabe.
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Post by ArwenFan on Sept 5, 2014 2:51:04 GMT -5
First up of my problems with the ep: Vincent. Okay, you really have to wonder at this point if his love is even WORTH having, based on the way Vincent was portrayed on the television screen the first half of season 2. We earlier in the season found out that Vincent pursued Gabby but then went back to Alex. JT tried to explain it away by saying that Vincent and Alex had "grown apart," but that explanation does not hold against the Season 1 presentation of Alex and Vincent's relationship. We saw ALL those letters back and forth between the two, and Vincent clearly never told Alex about Gabby, since Alex seemed to see herself and Vincent as having "always" been together since childhood. So Vincent so readily "forgot" about Alex in the moment for some quick screw time with Gabriella. The introduction of Gabriella was LUDICROUS. I pay NO attention to it all. This was at the height of my Brad Kern is ba<edited>*** crazy position. That entire episode sucked for me on so many levels it gets my vote as the worst one of the season. I cannot disagree with this strongly enough. Vincent doesn't fight the Tori connection in the beginning because her influence as a female beast is too strong. Primal. He reacts to her on a purely animal level. The same as he did with Gabe in Season 1. I remember Vincent telling Catherine (after the Tori kiss) that he kept saying he was all right, but he really wasn't. I believe that to be completely true. He was trying to remember in its entirety his prior relationship with Catherine, trying to remember and reclaim his old self, but in all reality it was roughly 2 months between Vincent reappearing and Thanksgiving. Do you really believe he was in any condition to fight as strongly for Catherine as he did later on? I think it's amazing that Vincent was able to function as well as did after the brainwashing and reprogramming he suffered at the hands of Muirfield/Bob/whoever. In addition to being a Muirfield player, Bob is a master manipulator who knew how to play Vincent and he had no qualms about doing so. Everyone (Catherine, Vincent, Gabe, JT, Tess and Tori) were totally out of their league when going up against Bob prior to finding out who he was. As for Vincent setting up the Tori kiss for Cat's benefit, I've never believed that and I still don't. I said this once during the season: I completely understand why Vincent was ready to gut Bob for the despicable human being that he is in 'Man or Beast.' At that point in time, it had nothing to do with Catherine or their relationship and everything to do with inflicting maximum damage on the person who had destroyed your life. I am not a turn the other cheek kind of gal, so I get it. The only thing that keeps me from doing bad things to people who have wronged me is jail time and possibly religious upbringing. Really? Really? We definitely part company here because Catherine does not get a pass for any of the crap she pulled during the season. I would love to see how she would have reacted if she'd been put through half the hell Vincent has gone through twice. I do not disagree that the writers messed up big time in execution and with the ridiculous memory-wipe, breakup Vincat plan, but leveling all the blame at Vincent is unjustified.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Sept 5, 2014 5:12:54 GMT -5
Sorry, I did not have a chance to post my thoughts before but I will now. I absolutely loved this episode a) cause I thought it was really well written and a breath of fresh air writing wise compared to say episodes 5 and 6 and, most importantly b) FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS SEASON WE GOT HONESTY FROM BOTH CAT AND VINCENT. this convo after the kiss was fantastic and real and honest and the first time Vincent really admitted he was NOT ok and Catherine admitted she could NOT deal with the situation as it was. We had this lukewarm reception of Vincent in episodes 5 and 6 by Cat and I coudl finally fully understand why. And we were always doubting that Vincent had recovered from what had been done to him and he finally got to admit it! I also adored Ted's acting in this episode and the intensity of some of the moments Yes, I was not a huge fan of the kiss and yes the whole triangle situation this season has been absolutely ludicrous (both the Toricent crap and even more so the Gaberine crap) but regardless I thought this is one of the strongest episodes of the season. Not an episode I will rewatch 100 times to swoon over Vincat obviously, but an episode that was absolutely essential and well executed and led really really well to another really good episode, episode 8. So I am afraid I have to disagree that this was a poor episode. alwayscrazedbatbfan , yes I do think this love is worth fighting for and I never doubted it was. We have to understand that Vincent was NOT himself in the first half of season 2 and had gone through so much crap that I am surprised he was even on his two feet or even slightly making an effort. Vincent was a lost man and yes at that stage did not fight hard for his love because he was not able to. He was not even able to fully feel that love because he was weak and broken and confused and fighting against a bigger battle - his dark side, the beast within. And obviously he managed to get over this but it was not easy and I would expect Cat to continue fighting for him (as she did) cause if she did not then that woudl make me question the epic love element. Vincent was not in the right state of mind, his soul was broken and he needed help. That is a fact I just accepted - he came out stronger and is now more willing to fight for his love than he was in season 1 which is good. I dunno maybe my definition of epic love is different but I never really questioned that, even in season 2. I am not saying we should have had to endure poor storylines, meaningless triangles whcih could have been replace dby much more meaningful obstacles and silly side stories such as the Gabriela one, and I did get frustrated with both Vincent and Cat this season but I personally never questioned whether this love was worth fighting for or not. i know views are different on this and I fully respect all views, but just thought I'd express how I feel about it.
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Post by jefferen on Sept 5, 2014 9:10:53 GMT -5
Sorry, I did not have a chance to post my thoughts before but I will now. I absolutely loved this episode a) cause I thought it was really well written and a breath of fresh air writing wise compared to say episodes 5 and 6 and, most importantly b) FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS SEASON WE GOT HONESTY FROM BOTH CAT AND VINCENT. this convo after the kiss was fantastic and real and honest and the first time Vincent really admitted he was NOT ok and Catherine admitted she could NOT deal with the situation as it was. We had this lukewarm reception of Vincent in episodes 5 and 6 by Cat and I coudl finally fully understand why. And we were always doubting that Vincent had recovered from what had been done to him and he finally got to admit it! I also adored Ted's acting in this episode and the intensity of some of the moments Yes, I was not a huge fan of the kiss and yes the whole triangle situation this season has been absolutely ludicrous (both the Toricent crap and even more so the Gaberine crap) but regardless I thought this is one of the strongest episodes of the season. Not an episode I will rewatch 100 times to swoon over Vincat obviously, but an episode that was absolutely essential and well executed and led really really well to another really good episode, episode 8. So I am afraid I have to disagree that this was a poor episode. alwayscrazedbatbfan , yes I do think this love is worth fighting for and I never doubted it was. We have to understand that Vincent was NOT himself in the first half of season 2 and had gone through so much crap that I am surprised he was even on his two feet or even slightly making an effort. Vincent was a lost man and yes at that stage did not fight hard for his love because he was not able to. He was not even able to fully feel that love because he was weak and broken and confused and fighting against a bigger battle - his dark side, the beast within. And obviously he managed to get over this but it was not easy and I would expect Cat to continue fighting for him (as she did) cause if she did not then that woudl make me question the epic love element. Vincent was not in the right state of mind, his soul was broken and he needed help. That is a fact I just accepted - he came out stronger and is now more willing to fight for his love than he was in season 1 which is good. I dunno maybe my definition of epic love is different but I never really questioned that, even in season 2. I am not saying we should have had to endure poor storylines, meaningless triangles whcih could have been replace dby much more meaningful obstacles and silly side stories such as the Gabriela one, and I did get frustrated with both V incent and Cat this season but I personally never questioned whether this love was worth fighting for or not. i know views are different on this and I fully respect all views, but just thought I'd express how I feel about it. Amen! Thats one of the things that kept me hanging on this season. The pull that no matter what was going on between VinCat it was there. And IMO, i never saw VinCat as not epic or true love. No i didnt like the triangles, but just because the writers gave us the triangles and the "cheating" and that mess doesnt automatically mean that VinCat isnt still an EPIC love. I never saw VinCat's love ever as being anything less than EPIC. The fact that VinCat was able to make it through those things and come out stronger than ever is what makes it EPIC. If they never went through an trial & tribulations how would they know that they are truly EPIC & destined? Lets face it things and life arent always sunshine and roses. And I think they needed to be put through the ringer to prove this. In S1 in imo their issues, problems, threats whatever you want to call them, werent a strong enough threat to challenge the EPICness of VinCat's love. Vincent's memory loss and his struggling to remember, and inner struggle w/ fighting the beast within was much more of a threat to VinCats love than Muirfield, and all the other forces against them in S1 ever was. I never questioned if they would get back together or if their love was worth fighting for. The pull was just too strong between them, even at complete odds to deny that eventually they'd get back together. Even some of their heated fights I felt like couldve turned passionate in an instant. I always felt that they connected at a deeper level and that connection I felt could never be broken. And that working through whatever issues it was, weather it was Tor, Gabe, Bob, V's inner struggle, or Cat keeping everything inside that they would make it through. They needed something major to shake their relationship to prove how destined they really are. And as much as I hated them being apart and w/ other people and all their issues, I loved seeing them work their way back to each other. And I feel like I can actually say VinCat are really destined and no matter what will work through it in the end and be together where I dont feel like I couldve said that at the end of S1.
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