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Post by Bill the beast on May 25, 2014 16:11:31 GMT -5
Vincent swore, because that is what Catherine wanted to hear I don't disagree with all you said. From Vincent's point of view he was willing to take a risk to make Catherine happy. (It was almost a fatal risk when the bad guys showed up) In fact he was initially willing to end his life for three good years with her. I get it; he's being noble and it is very sad that he has been brought to this state. But you don't balance Catherine's sacrifices by literally sacrificing your own life. In fact she has said over and over it is not a sacrifice to her as long as he is in her future. But something else is driving Vincent, isn't it? This self-loathing that Catherine can't even understand can lead him to devalue the very life he is risking. (And that is the Beast within Vincent) Over and over he frets that Gabe could give her the white picket fence and everything. And that devalues how special Catherine is, what her love really means. He is willing to sacrifice everything for an extra 12 hours (and most of that sleeping). He is willing to sacrifice Catherine's trust in him. (He could have done something other than lie to her face) They come as close to naming these issues as they're going to in the alley beside the precinct. Catherine says again that she doesn't need a "normal" future - just one that Vincent is alive in. "I just need you to not give up." Then Vincent lets his real motivation out: "I was worried, if... I tried a cure, and it didn't work out ... you might leave." It is poignant. Vincent is in this relationship because he is crazy in love with Catherine - but not for a second does he really believe she can love him back. I'm only disappointed in the lie; the rest I understand. He is a long way from believing her when she says "I love you the way you are, and I don't need you to be cured". And he is a very long way from being able to love himself.
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Post by raniamahd on May 25, 2014 16:17:24 GMT -5
yellow eye contacts ! they both phones , 12 hours to turn to pumpkin ! that ep has a lot of funny scenes on a serious note : Gabe's girlfriend was so devoted to him ? so he had someone truly accepted and loved him ? so he had no excuse to try to manipulate Cat to be with him although he knows she doesn't love him ?! or to envy Vincent for Cat's love and acceptable because he already had this in his life !
ok again to the little sweet moments and lines Vincent : now i have you in my life ( so sweet ) that explain what happened to him when he lost her, because she is his guided light like the song said
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Post by raniamahd on May 25, 2014 16:31:06 GMT -5
ok , i finish watching late than you dear ladies , and this ep sure worth to rewatch over and over ( i can't remember how many time i watch it myself ) and watching with you is making it even better and more interesting so thanks ladies for this lovely evening i hope next week's ep would be a great one and even better than this one , although i can't watch it live because i don't live in Canada or USA , but i will be here reading your amazing comments till i can download it till next week then goodnight ladies
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 17:58:19 GMT -5
Vincent swore, because that is what Catherine wanted to hear I don't disagree with all you said. From Vincent's point of view he was willing to take a risk to make Catherine happy. (It was almost a fatal risk when the bad guys showed up) In fact he was initially willing to end his life for three good years with her. I get it; he's being noble and it is very sad that he has been brought to this state. But you don't balance Catherine's sacrifices by literally sacrificing your own life. In fact she has said over and over it is not a sacrifice to her as long as he is in her future. But something else is driving Vincent, isn't it? This self-loathing that Catherine can't even understand can lead him to devalue the very life he is risking. (And that is the Beast within Vincent) Over and over he frets that Gabe could give her the white picket fence and everything. And that devalues how special Catherine is, what her love really means. He is willing to sacrifice everything for an extra 12 hours (and most of that sleeping). He is willing to sacrifice Catherine's trust in him. (He could have done something other than lie to her face) They come as close to naming these issues as they're going to in the alley beside the precinct. Catherine says again that she doesn't need a "normal" future - just one that Vincent is alive in. "I just need you to not give up." Then Vincent lets his real motivation out: "I was worried, if... I tried a cure, and it didn't work out ... you might leave." It is poignant. Vincent is in this relationship because he is crazy in love with Catherine - but not for a second does he really believe she can love him back. I'm only disappointed in the lie; the rest I understand. He is a long way from believing her when she says "I love you the way you are, and I don't need you to be cured". And he is a very long way from being able to love himself. Bill, I see what you're saying, but I feel there is more to it....I'm just having difficulty finding the right words... I don't think Vincent would be in a relationship with Catherine if he didn't believe that she loves him just as much as he loves her. I'll get back to this in a minute. Vincent's lie in this episode is not the first lie he tells her, and she has lied to him on more than one occasion too...so when she declared in Liar, Liar, this season, that they didn't lie to each other in the past, I was a little puzzled. What I have come to realize is that all the lies or omissions in Season 1, were because they were trying to protect each other, keep each other safe, give each other what they need believed the other needed at that moment. In Liar, Liar, the lies are self serving, and they both realize by the end of the episode, that those kinds of lies do destroy their trust in each other and devalue their relationship. In this episode, when Catherine tells Vincent over and over again to his face that it is not a sacrifice to her as long as he is in her future, she is lying as much as he is when he swears that he won't take another pill. She isn't fine with things when she says she's fine with things, and he already knows this. So, getting back to the love part, it's not her love that he doubts, what he doubts is if her love for him will be enough, tomorrow or five years down the road (this shows up in the deleted scene)...because they both admit in the pool that normal is what they want. He questions what many question, what I believe Catherine herself questions, is love enough? I believe that they both answer yes to this question, but life certainly isn't easy for either of them. The sad part, too, is that whenever Vincent gets close to fully being Dr. J, everyone wants or needs Mr. H. (this scenario repeats itself in S2). It seems that it might have been a fatal mistake when the bad guys showed up; but they got through it together, with only Vincent the man (Catherine is very capable, and Vincent has training, he just hasn't needed to use it for 10 years and is a little rusty)..but once they must face Gabe in the next episode, there is no escaping alive without Vincent the beast. The same is true as they deal with the Beasts and Sam in S2. Well, I feel like I have gone around in circles and not made a point at all...it's somehow clear in my head... Anyways, Bill, I always enjoy your perspective, and fully understand what you are saying.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on May 26, 2014 2:37:06 GMT -5
I always think this discussion comes back to him trying to prove himself worthy of that love. Or rather, perhaps I should say he doesn't feel worthy, therefore he takes the pill again after he promises he won't.
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Post by raniamahd on May 26, 2014 4:03:18 GMT -5
I always think this discussion comes back to him trying to prove himself worthy of that love. exactly that is the point here i think what Bill the beast and @locaxbatb meant are the same in some how , if i understand them right of course Vincent didn't doubt Cat's love but as Loca said (btw you made your point very clear dear or at lest i think i got it ) he doubt if love will always be enough for her (the only thing i got from S2's mess is yes to that question) , or in another word if it will always worthy for her ? because the issue with V is since he became a beast he felt unworthy of any body's love , he hated himself and never accepted his beast side , that is how he saw himself ! -- so deep down he was wondering if/when Cat would see him as he sees himself but finally in the last 2 eps from S2 and with JT's help ( God bless his soul ) he understand that he has to stop fight his beast side because it isn't a battle between the man and the beast only one of them can win it then live in denial and act like the other side doesn't exist ?! no that isn't the answer here , he has to accept all what he is , learn how to adapt with it to be in a real control , stop hating himself , then he can be in a healthy relationship with Cat and believe he is worthy her love and that what they have will always enough for both of them ! in another words : he has to trust and love himself first to really believe in any body's love and trust !
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Post by Bill the beast on May 26, 2014 11:55:51 GMT -5
in another words : he has to trust and love himself first to really believe in any body's love and trust ! Bless his heart, he finally makes that journey.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on May 26, 2014 16:10:16 GMT -5
WTF!?? "Guiding light song" in the alley!!! Had you forgotten that? I had asked if it was the song in the S2E16 was the same as at the end of S1E21, but no one replied...but it is!!! It's totally the same song... I like the end of 2x16, but now it takes on new meaning, like they were harking back to something intangible that was touched on in "Date Night"... I think because so many things about S2 fall so flat for me, I like the end scene from 2x16 a bit more knowing that they were (maybe) going for that. This scene from "Date Night" is so momentous, the way they finally broach that discussion about a future, about a cure, about the whole thing, the need to dream, while at the same time, we see his struggle to be worthy of her love, and how much he wants to give her everything she really wants - including a trip to the movies. There is something that is so beautiful and sad about this episode. And it is nice, on rewatch, to find that it brings a new depth, for me at least to the scene from 2x16. I'm afraid I found that scene to be a bit "too perfect" originally, and pregnant with all of things they haven't said yet...(in S2 at least) but now that it calls back to "Date Night," and some of the best VinCat relationship discussions we ever had... well I see it a bit differently.
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Post by pippin on May 26, 2014 18:31:46 GMT -5
(4) After this exchange: CAT: ... Vincent, you have to swear to me that you're not gonna take another pill. VINCENT: Okay. CAT: No, swear. VINCENT: I swear, okay? He says this solemnly so it is kind of disappointing when he breaks this vow. I can understand the pressures on him but still - she made him look her in the eyes and solemnly swear. So I am disappointed in him. (5) TYLER: "Just one minor detail. What you need from him... he won't survive." GABE: "Whatever it takes." Proving that Gabe was consciously evil - even in human-mode. Do you think that is how Gabe views his past actions? Whether he was in full-on beast mode or not, I think he attributes the terrible things he did in the past to the beast DNA in his system, just like Vincent wasn't in beast mode when he callously refused to help a handcuffed Cat rescue the hostages or kissed Tori in the woods. I think that is why Gabe is so convinced that Vincent with his beastly DNA will also do terrible things and end up hurting Cat again. I really enjoy some of the scenes in this episode, although I remember for those already struggling with the Vincent character, his actions this episode certainly didn't change their minds and they couldn't stand that Cat forgave him so easily. Date Night had .5 rating and 1.29 million viewers. 4th least watched episode of Season 1, .7 decline in the rating and nearly 1.5 million viewers less than the premiere, but up from the previous week's S1 low of 1.23 million viewers.
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Post by raniamahd on May 27, 2014 6:30:36 GMT -5
Do you think that is how Gabe views his past actions? Whether he was in full-on beast mode or not, I think he attributes the terrible things he did in the past to the beast DNA in his system, just like Vincent wasn't in beast mode when he callously refused to help a handcuffed Cat rescue the hostages or kissed Tori in the woods. I think that is why Gabe is so convinced that Vincent with his beastly DNA will also do terrible things and end up hurting Cat again. No , both Vincent and Gabe are responsible for the mistakes they did as men not beasts , the beast DNA is only responsible for things they did when they beast out and their beasts take control over their men , you know human make mistakes too and you don't have to have a corrupt DNA to do that ! the beast DNA is Gabe's lame excuse and his pretext to get away with the horrible things he did and to keep vincat apart by plant that poison seed on her mind but i don't think he is really convinced that the beastly DNA can't be controlled ! i think his ego wants to believe that so he wouldn't admit that if he was strong enough , have high morals and cares for other people he would be able to control his beast side and use it for good not for bad like V did , but sooner or later he has to face the truth that he isn't the good person he think he is and that he is selfish and weak by nature and his ex beastly DNA is totally innocent from his terrible choices and mistakes ! edit : about Cat's easily forgiveness ? in S2 i totally agree , i wish she wasn't ! maybe if she didn't forgive him that easily in the first place they wouldn't reach the point where he choose his beast side over her and his humanity and where she had to shot him ! but in S1 Vincent didn't do horrible sins that couldn't be forgiven ! yes he did mistakes so did Cat , but both their mistakes were out of love and caring for each other and with all the good intentions too i think the reasons and intentions behind the mistakes help you to forgive someone , of course with the fact that you love that one and know for sure he loves you back !
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Jun 3, 2014 19:24:37 GMT -5
In ansswer to an earlier post about the difference between Vinceny Season 1 and Vincent Season 2, if you remember in Hostages, the reason Vincent refused to help the hostages at first was because he knew he would have to expose himself as a beast to do it. He was also angry with Cat and her relatives so wasn't too receptive anyway. But when it came to the crunch, he couldn't walk away and saved Tess, putting his own life/future in jeopardy. That's why Cat had to turn the lights off so Vincent could beast out without being seen.
He also didn't leave Catherine to be with Tori. Tori was just there, hanging around Vincent to 'pick up the pieces' or so she thought. He was no more in love with Tori than Cat was in love with Gabe.
Agree that the most perfect moment in this Ep is the little nuzzle Vincent gives the sleeping Cat after he has taken the second pill. It says everthing about how he feel about her and the painful decision he has just made. The music is perfect too as he probably feels he is being suck into a whirlpool of mixed emotions. Cat is angry with him for taking it but understands what he's going through and forgives him quickly.
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emendoza923
Rookie Cop
newbie Beastie that's a little lost. =/
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Post by emendoza923 on Jun 14, 2014 22:06:33 GMT -5
I would rewatch all the episodes again in a heartbeat.
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