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Post by pippin on Sept 19, 2016 16:48:12 GMT -5
It wouldn't be a balanced post if I didn't also say what was wrong with the episode/storyline. Plot-hole number 1 is how did Braxton convince Vincent that Garrus and Eklund had been killed by an invisible beast? Vincent sensed Gabe killing Ray Sheckman a year later but couldn't see Braxton killing Eklund and Garrus minutes before? Also it was never really explained how Vincent knew when and where his own funeral would be when he told the guy from the Biotech company to meet JT there and renew his job offer. Unless, planning their own funerals was one of the loose ends they tied up in their downtime. But these are small and insignificant gripes in the grand scheme of things. One last comment is although Paris is great, I would have loved them to have settled in my own home town, London. As well as the obvious advantage of being the only country in Europe that speaks the same language, that way, I could fantasize that the next time I am feeding the pigeons in Trafalgar Square, I might just look up to see a familiar couple sitting on the bench across from me, making out, or just looking at each other in that special way they do. Lovingly and protectively. I really must now try to get a life but whatever I do, I don't think Cat and Vincent will be far from my thoughts and that's a pretty strong impression that this show has left on me. That's it's legacy. Roll on Season 4 DVD release day and what about a complete series blu-ray box set in the future? Come on people. Make it happen. It goes without saying that a season 5 would be pretty welcome too. Regarding the beast that wasn't -- I doubt this is what they were planning, but what if they were originally thinking of having Vincent be the beast doing the killings like the Hidden Remote or At Stake review had mentioned. Hill's overdosing him with the adrenalin and then Braxton's tests led to him developing a split with the beast. That's why there were times when V was showing more aggression than usual and why a good part of the season he came across as more angry and why he couldn't see the 'other beast" that killed Ecklund and Garrus. Can you imagine if they originally told Jay that that was what was going on with V but then they get their cancellation notice and they go,"never mind, we don't got time for that. There will be no season 5 to put V back together. Braxton did it all." And Jay would be "but i would have played V very differently." I can see why they wanted them to end up in Paris to tie in with the original and their honeymoon but given the language issue, like you said, you would think they would have picked one of the English speaking countries like England or Australia or Canada as had been the destination in the past. They could have let them settle in Toronto and let the city actually play itself in the final episode.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 19, 2016 17:01:51 GMT -5
I hope the Season 4 DVD contains some sort of commentary about IF the writers changed the storyline for Vincent mid-stream. I ALSO originally wondered if Vincent wasn't going to find he was suffering from some form of Disassociative Identity Disorder (what was formerly called "Multiple Personalities Disorder") where all the torture and accusations HAD led Vincent into a Jekyll/Hyde situation.
That would have been fascinating to watch (well, as long as both versions/personalities LOVED Catherine. . . ) AND fascinating to see Catherine realize the truth. And what she and Vincent would have had to do to make Vincent whole again. THAT would have been a TRULY new storyline, with Vincent basically fighting against REAL insanity and PTSD in order to find his way back again.
Babylon 5 touched upon the subject by having the character of "Talia" be tortured at some point offscreen in order to produce a NEW PERSONALITY that could be manipulated AND PROGRAMMED to MURDER for the PsyCorp. So that "alternate personality" could only come out at night while the regular character was asleep UNTIL the "code" was telepathically sent to Talia at which point the REAL Talia's personality would be gone for good.
Here, REYNOLDS had ALREADY created an "Alternate Vincent" in my mind. S3 briefly touched on what Reynolds had done to Vincent through the Liam storyline. It was INTERESTING BECAUSE Reynolds might have actually SPECIFICALLY conditioned Vincent to mistrust Catherine. SO MUCH more could have been done or said about the issue of "Programming" Vincent, ESPECIALLY if the S4 DHS guy OR Braxton had TRIGGERED a "hidden response" program leftover from REYNOLDS. Reynolds would NOT have said anything to VinCat about any possible "trigger," as he would NOT have expected Vincent to undergo further torture OR drug-induced rages similar to what Reynolds put him through.
But AGAIN, the writers REALLY missed an opportunity. And I honestly think the Writers WOULD have gone that route had BATB had MORE than 13 episodes a season AND if BATB had a Season 5. But when it was revealed that the show would be cancelled, they basically went more conventional, in my opinion.
But I LOVE the THEORIES that explain the abrupt ABOUT-FACE that seems to have occurred with the season this year.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 19, 2016 17:19:23 GMT -5
I KNOW that many Beasties wanted Vincent cured. But I am glad that the show did NOT go this route.
Part of what I LOVE so much about BATB is that Catherine LOVED Vincent for ALL of him. VINCENT was the one that oftentimes couldn't handle his beasthood and worried over how it impacted Cat. As Cat said in "Cold Turkey" to Vincent, "this is YOUR problem, not mine." And that was the truth of the matter. She loved him, beast and all. She truly TRUSTED Vincent to use his beast powers for good AND not to hurt her. SO I DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE that element of the VinCat relationship.
And Cat's belief that Vincent WAS a good man even with the beast issue. AND that he could control his impulses. Her FAITH in Vincent helped lead Vincent to BELIEVE in himself.
So the "beast" part of the Journey MADE the show for me. Because it was a LOVE that knew NO Boundaries AND overcame significant struggles, both internally and externally.
So keep Vincent a beast. And KNOW that any child from VINCAT might suffer from similar beast-related issues, BUT s/he would have the UNCONDITIONAL love of his or her parents, who would UNDERSTAND and thus be able to relate to what their child would go through. And help that child OVERCOME the same sort of struggles.
But BECAUSE Vincent remained a Beast, there IS that issue of any NUMBER of organizations wanting access to a natural-born beast that would be born from VINCAT. Leaves SO MUCH out there to warrant a movie at some point.
After all, with the LIVE ACTION Disney BATB movie, people will once again think about the whole theme of "Beauty and the Beast" and hopefully look back at the show. And fondness can create a desire for a follow-up MOVIE, as we have seen with previous seasons. Here's hoping. . . .
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Sept 19, 2016 17:27:58 GMT -5
Since JT speaks of Vincent and Cat as "heroes" at the funeral, I would HOPE that would mean that Vincent (and Catherine as an accessory) were CLEARED of wrongdoing by DHS. It is assumed that the Prince is an honorable man AND would desire to clear the names of the people who SAVED his life. And with Braxton being found to have been alive (although dead once more), DHS would look pathetically foolish. BUT that might make DHS even MORE determined to find fault with Vincent, especially since he ended up "Dead" as a result of not receiving the back-up and investigation from DHS.
But I still think DHS would have an open case on Vincent--after all, the truth can never really be known about Hill. Vincent DID kill Hill, even though we know that was only caused by the adrenaline. Hill's MOTIVES would always remain murky, since the previous stuff on Vincent was supposedly erased. BUT since we see how easily Braxton and Grace found info on Vincent, I ASSUME that all Vincent's previous stuff is still in cyberspace somewhere. But DHS would NOT be motivated to truly look into the matter, since Vincent and Cat are gone anyways.
DHS wouldn't be willing to totally clear VINCAT until THEY would need them. AGAIN, great potential for a MOVIE and for VinCat having to return to the US and resume their lives. Could be MULTIPLE reasons for this. So HOPE the Powers That Be that own the rights will consider this in the (near) future.
It really IS left open-ended by having VinCat living in Paris. Just glad that BOTH SURVIVED the final episode. Leaves POTENTIAL FUTURE there IF there is a demand. (SO DEMAND FELLOW BEASTIES!! I WANT my BATB movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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Post by pippin on Sept 19, 2016 17:46:22 GMT -5
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Post by BeastieBoy on Sept 20, 2016 2:18:35 GMT -5
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Post by joyabeast on Sept 20, 2016 4:13:15 GMT -5
In case some haven't seen it, Austin made this fun clip for the BATB finale. A little late in posting, but better late than never... http://instagr.am/p/BKZc3lgAN5I I saw it before the finale. Austin is so funny.
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Post by bbatb on Sept 20, 2016 6:15:15 GMT -5
Ha, BeastieBoy, I look at this photo and it says ENJOY. Well, unfortunately, I could not really enjoy this finale wholeheartedly, because it just was too unrealistic. I thought it was the epitome of ridiculousness to have them settle in Paris and start their new lives with a whole slew of lies. Fake ID's, fake certificates for her law school background (if she ever finished law school - which I seriously doubt - it would be in the name of Catherine Chandler) and also for his doctor background (since all his certificates are in the name of Vincent Keller), no friends who know their secret, no family. Even if you are crazy in love, the city of love can get a bit lonely without friends and family and some sort of familiar surroundings. So their new NORMAL and HAPPILY EVER AFTER is founded on lies and deception and forgeries? How is that better than staying in NYC after they apparently have been exonerated and after killing the last 'beastmaster'? I get that they wanted to have the connection to Belle and Adam and that they wanted to bookend the season, but it has to also make sense and work somehow. THIS did not work for me. And to end a romantic so-called epic love fairytale without more ueber-romantic moments does not work for me either. I do not understand the American obsession with tv scenes of 'having to pee' at inopportune moments and how that is funny or romantic? I did not like it in 217 and I did not care for it here either. Of course, I did not let it ruin the complete show for me and I tried to focus on the few cute and good moments, but if the plot holes are this glaring, it is hard to just ignore them. So now it is back to S1 rewatch and some episodes of S2 and all the beautiful YouTube videos which concentrate on the really good VinCat moments.
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Post by evanarose on Sept 20, 2016 7:20:01 GMT -5
I watched the finale again....Aww I am going to miss looking forward to these episodes! I miss it already! Yeah, the pee line was odd, sounded out of place like really? lol. I don't know what was up with that....Kristin trying to be funny lol? And I agree with others in terms of Vincent not cured in being a beast....but I kinda feel in a way, he kinda was. I don't know if it was the writers aim...but the last couple of episodes Vincent hasn't fully turned beast so I'm wondering whether that's their way of saying he's been cured...I don't mean the while condition itself (he's eyes are growing) but I mean when it comes to intense situations, in the past he would easily go fully beast whereas now...he fully got control in turning completely beast. And now it's like Vincent the man, controls the beast whereas before, it was more difficult, you questioned how much control Vincent had being a beast and whilst fully beast he would do things more out of control...I guess succumb the beast side of him if that makes sense. I guess being with Cat, he has learnt how to embrace being the beast in the right way. I really like the end scene with everyone together! When I saw the carriage pic in the spoilers...I wasn't sure about it but it turned out better than I thought it would. I can't say it beat season 1 moments but it was a highlight in season 4. I liked the suggestion someone posted about Cat tracing the scar, reminiscing together and lots of close ups. Maybe they could've shown a new roof top scene...but it might not feel the same as the original lol. But I think what could've made the scene more a season 1 feel is them alone together, lots of close ups, and not as much talking lol. It would be cheesy but I'm just imaging a scene of them staring, dancing together in that 'Tale as old as time' song
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Post by BeastieBoy on Sept 20, 2016 13:59:45 GMT -5
Ha, BeastieBoy , I look at this photo and it says ENJOY. Well, unfortunately, I could not really enjoy this finale wholeheartedly, because it just was too unrealistic. I thought it was the epitome of ridiculousness to have them settle in Paris and start their new lives with a whole slew of lies. Fake ID's, fake certificates for her law school background (if she ever finished law school - which I seriously doubt - it would be in the name of Catherine Chandler) and also for his doctor background (since all his certificates are in the name of Vincent Keller), no friends who know their secret, no family. Even if you are crazy in love, the city of love can get a bit lonely without friends and family and some sort of familiar surroundings. So their new NORMAL and HAPPILY EVER AFTER is founded on lies and deception and forgeries? How is that better than staying in NYC after they apparently have been exonerated and after killing the last 'beastmaster'? I get that they wanted to have the connection to Belle and Adam and that they wanted to bookend the season, but it has to also make sense and work somehow. THIS did not work for me. And to end a romantic so-called epic love fairytale without more ueber-romantic moments does not work for me either. I do not understand the American obsession with tv scenes of 'having to pee' at inopportune moments and how that is funny or romantic? I did not like it in 217 and I did not care for it here either. Of course, I did not let it ruin the complete show for me and I tried to focus on the few cute and good moments, but if the plot holes are this glaring, it is hard to just ignore them. So now it is back to S1 rewatch and some episodes of S2 and all the beautiful YouTube videos which concentrate on the really good VinCat moments. Sorry you didn't enjoy the finale. However, I think your reaction on the Fake IDs is a bit tainted, especially in Vincent's case. In the finale, there was no mention of his profession. I guess you assumed he was a doctor, based on a BTS pic. This was a pic that I never saw and since the scene didn't make it into the finale, his profession is not officially known based on what was presented to the TV viewing audience. Aaron Rottinghaus did mention after the fact that the scene would have shown that Vincent was working to become a doctor. But again, as it wasn't actually in the episode, his profession is officially an unknown. I'm sure there are various topics that get discussed BTS that may or may not make it into the final version, but I can only go by what's actually presented on screen. In Catherine's case, I do agree that it's a bit far fetched that she could complete her law degree in six months. My take was she did it using her new alias, but how she got into law school with fake credentials is a valid point. But this was a minor detail for me and didn't take away from the things I liked about the finale. Lastly, about no friends or family. Vincent really doesn't have any immediate family left, except for his "brother" JT. Same for Cat and Heather. But I felt having them reunite at the end did bring their "family" and friends back to VinCat, so I felt it was a happy ending.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Sept 21, 2016 1:17:08 GMT -5
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Post by BeastieBoy on Sept 21, 2016 1:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by pippin on Sept 21, 2016 2:19:51 GMT -5
ha. Love it. That might have been my favorite scene in the finale. Cute Cat -- the one who babbles when she's nervous. Another thing that got cut from the pilot. Enjoyed that cuz you don't get to see KK play that type of scene often. And I like how she squeezed her legs and arms together and made that face like kids do. And was nice seeing V looking like he found Cat adorable.
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Post by joyabeast on Sept 21, 2016 2:42:06 GMT -5
I thought the same thing when I watched the scene.
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dwayne1111
Army Recruit
The art of leadership is saying no, not yes. It is very easy to say yes. (Tony Blair)
Posts: 183
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Post by dwayne1111 on Sept 21, 2016 12:08:20 GMT -5
Ha, BeastieBoy , I look at this photo and it says ENJOY. Well, unfortunately, I could not really enjoy this finale wholeheartedly, because it just was too unrealistic. I thought it was the epitome of ridiculousness to have them settle in Paris and start their new lives with a whole slew of lies. Fake ID's, fake certificates for her law school background (if she ever finished law school - which I seriously doubt - it would be in the name of Catherine Chandler) and also for his doctor background (since all his certificates are in the name of Vincent Keller), no friends who know their secret, no family. Even if you are crazy in love, the city of love can get a bit lonely without friends and family and some sort of familiar surroundings. So their new NORMAL and HAPPILY EVER AFTER is founded on lies and deception and forgeries? How is that better than staying in NYC after they apparently have been exonerated and after killing the last 'beastmaster'? I get that they wanted to have the connection to Belle and Adam and that they wanted to bookend the season, but it has to also make sense and work somehow. THIS did not work for me. And to end a romantic so-called epic love fairytale without more ueber-romantic moments does not work for me either. I do not understand the American obsession with tv scenes of 'having to pee' at inopportune moments and how that is funny or romantic? I did not like it in 217 and I did not care for it here either. Of course, I did not let it ruin the complete show for me and I tried to focus on the few cute and good moments, but if the plot holes are this glaring, it is hard to just ignore them. So now it is back to S1 rewatch and some episodes of S2 and all the beautiful YouTube videos which concentrate on the really good VinCat moments. Sorry you didn't enjoy the finale. However, I think your reaction on the Fake IDs is a bit tainted, especially in Vincent's case. In the finale, there was no mention of his profession. I guess you assumed he was a doctor, based on a BTS pic. This was a pic that I never saw and since the scene didn't make it into the finale, his profession is not officially known based on what was presented to the TV viewing audience. Aaron Rottinghaus did mention after the fact that the scene would have shown that Vincent was working to become a doctor. But again, as it wasn't actually in the episode, his profession is officially an unknown. I'm sure there are various topics that get discussed BTS that may or may not make it into the final version, but I can only go by what's actually presented on screen. In Catherine's case, I do agree that it's a bit far fetched that she could complete her law degree in six months. My take was she did it using her new alias, but how she got into law school with fake credentials is a valid point. But this was a minor detail for me and didn't take away from the things I liked about the finale. Lastly, about no friends or family. Vincent really doesn't have any immediate family left, except for his "brother" JT. Same for Cat and Heather. But I felt having them reunite at the end did bring their "family" and friends back to VinCat, so I felt it was a happy ending. Hi, I always loved and still love the BATB real love story not the storyline alongside the love story. He got the real beauty she got not the real beast, she got a beast in the course of time, from a beast hater to a beast killer , to finally get the best out of his beast being. So for me , everything worked out fine, Happy Ever After Mr. and Mrs........! The fat has sung. Btw, Jay need some touching-up-on French, because that was anything but French. He love to show his naughty part. Austin had the perfect last line. Extraordinary human beings can do extraordinary things, strong sense of teamwork, friendship, and more, trust and honesty ( pretty little lies allowed, as the saying goes) with the right people lead to a well done final Cafe scene, no tears needed.
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