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Post by pippin on Aug 22, 2016 17:04:25 GMT -5
I think VinCat leaving would have been more effective if they hadn't already gone down this path twice in season 1 and then again in season 2. They were on their way to Canada with no hesitation in Partners in Crime and again in BITNB but now it's boo-hoo we have to leave?? And no one seems to remember Cat and V already have fake IDs from Never Turn Back or apparently how easy they were to get. I suppose Cat could feel more guilty about leaving Heather since her relationship with V is the reason their father is dead and she's leaving Heath with no immediate family now but that didn't seem to concern her in S2. LOL I was thinking about your post Pippin and had a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I didn't actually mind the idea of VinCat trying to run away as, although it was flirted with in Season 1, when they wanted to run off to Denver from Muirfield after Vincent was supposedly on the way to being 'cured' by Gabe's magic pill, they didn't actually do it for reasons we all know about. Again, in Season 2, Vincent was reluctant then ready to take Cat to Canada and Cat was ready then reluctant so again, it didn't happen. Vincent decided to stay and fight and persuaded Cat, and they still had the promise of an exoneration. But this time, there really seems to be no other option. No exoneration is on the table, no matter what they do and how many lives they save by bringing down this new beast. Vincent will be made an example of, for killing Hill, even though Hill was ultimately a coward who broke the law himself by hiring hit-men to kill Vincent, Cat, Tess and JT. One glimmer of light on the horizon though. Agent Dillon does now accept that Vincent is not a bad guy, but says that the powers that be do not see things the same way. On the subject of the fake IDs, they may not still have them. Cat got them when she was an NYPD Dectective. She is not in a position to get more as she has lost both her NYPD and DHS badges. Also, they were only going to Denver, not leaving the country, so this time they needed passports, not IDs. Last time, they were only running from Muirfield, not the law. This time, they would be running from every law enforcement body in the US. One other question. Why is Vincent the reason Cat's father (Thomas Chandler) was killed? I thought this was one of the many unanswered BATB questions. Thomas was on his way to see Cat and had a tablet on him which, when brought back to life, showed a picture of Bob Reynolds. I thought at the end of Season 1 that Bob Reynolds had Thomas Chandler killed to stop him telling Cat who her real father was. After all, he murdered Tyler in cold blood and left Gabe for dead so I wouldn't have put it past him. However, I changed my mind when Bob finally spoke to Cat as her father, as I realised that, although Bob was a bad man, he would not have killed Thomas. Then I just assumed Muirfield killed him for some reason we would find out in Season 2. But we never did. On the Heather front, when Cat was going to leave for Canada with Vincent, Heather was working in Miami, so essentially, she had already left Cat. Also, leaving Heather this time around wouldn't have to be the end. Cat and Vincent might not be able to come back but that would not stop Heather going to see them once they were settled somewhere. Oh, I don't think VinCat leaving is bad in theory, and I thought the scene between Heather and Cat was nice cuz KK and Nicole did a good job and we know the show is ending, but it's another been there done that plus the fact VinCat didn't seem overly upset by the prospect of leaving the previous times. Whenever VinCat tried to leave before, it should also have meant no contact with the ones they left behind. If you are on the run or in hiding you can't be skyping, phoning, texting your loved ones and they can't be visiting you, which wasn't the case when Heather moved to Miami but was the case in S1, S2 and 411. I think one of the problems with S1 was having Muirfield after them from the get go. It's one thing to choose to put yourself in danger chasing bad guys, but it's another to endanger the lives of your friends and family cuz of your relationship. But since the show wasn't set up to be Highway to Heaven-like, I think it would have been better if they delayed Muirfield's involvement. In BITNB, I thought the only reason Cat didn't leave with V was because the police and their helicopter were right there and she was afraid she would slow him down and he would get caught. But they could have made V come back because he sensed Cat was in danger rather than his, "I don't want to run anymore" stance. Given their situation, I'm not sure why VinCat wouldn't have hung onto their fake IDs but since they were going to Canada in S2 wouldn't they have needed passports then? Of course might be easier to cross into Canada rather than TRY TO GET ON A PLANE. LOL Roger Grant @rogerallengrant frockie Thomas Chandler was killed by Zhao, who we then met in the S2 premiere. I assume Thomas wouldn't have been killed if Cat hadn't been in a relationship with V. Not sure why kill Thomas and not Cat or maybe Souders and Peterson or Levin and Cooper had something they planned to reveal about Thomas. or just something like whatever was in Vanessa's file in HOD that was so "big" they couldn't tell Cat, but yet Levin and Cooper wondered what the fans were even asking about at NYCC. To me your Bob reasoning makes more sense given that we didn't get anything on screen. In my season two, Gabe would confess to Cat that he had hired someone to go after Thomas to distract her while he got what he needed from V. Gabe would confess this to try and stop Cat from saving him when he was trying to kill himself after discovering that his beastly side was no longer dormant.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Aug 22, 2016 17:36:27 GMT -5
I think another thing that's changed between the times in S1 and S2, when VinCat wanted to leave, was VinCat. In S1, they had just gotten together and were lost in each other, fighting for their love. In S2, again they had just gotten back together again and were so focused on themselves. But now, here in S4, they've gotten engaged, then married, and the Scooby gang has had time to adjust to their beast crazy lives. It's no longer VinCat alone against the world, hence leaving this time is even harder for them.
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Post by pippin on Aug 22, 2016 18:42:34 GMT -5
In 405, I don't think Cat was shown to be in danger from Muirfield until Vincent popped back into her life. By inserting himself back into her "life," he sets off the chain of events leading Muirfield to use her as bait. Of course in the Pilot his corrupted DNA on Ashley sets off Cat to contact FBI / Muirfield. The precinct hostage was only because of Vincent and that stupid gem plot. But wasn't she out there investigating with Gabe because they thought it was beast-related? The bike messenger was in the 2nd episode, but he did save her twice in the Pilot when her mother was killed and then in the subway. But if he doesn't leave his corrupted DNA at the crime scene, Cat doesn't call FBI/Muirfield and doesn't get lured into the subway Tess getting shot in the sewer was were very much linked to Vincent, and JT's whole situation is all about Vincent. I was thinking,in season 1 especially, since the show was very much a procedural, the writers could have had Tess be in danger from a case that had no relation to Vincent at all. They could have introduced a non-Muirfield related bad, like some gang that Cat and Tess were investigating who would have killed Tess if Vincent hadn't saved her. They could even have had Sara be a psycho who went fatal attraction on JT or something so their lives weren't in danger only because of Vincent. They did better with Evan since Peter was his intern even if he wanted to re-create a Vincent kill, and Sabrina, although Vincent brought the case to Cat, but those were good non-beast related vililans. I think 405 did touch on something that might have made a better or more interesting case for the Vincent saving Cat angle but Cat would have had to been written very differently in the first season. pippin, you're starting to make me think that Cat, the Scooby gang, and everyone who's died in this show really would have been better without Vincent in their lives. So 405 was wrong, or was it? I also just realized that the flaw in 405 is that Cat is still alive. She should have died the night her mother was murdered without V there to save her. In 405, Vincent was there to save Cat the night her mother was killed, but apparently the change was when she went to the warehouse, they never met so no relationship starts. I don't know if having all of the near death experiences for the Scooby gang be Vincent related is intentional or what. Even Smallville managed to have Clark save Lana from some non-meteor infected folk here and there. The way Cat was shown in 405, I think made a better case for V saving Cat emotionally than they way she actually was and is written. In S1, she wasn't portrayed as overly tortured and they took out the parts in the pilot about her father blaming her for her mother's death and picking guys who didn't treat her well. They could have written Cat as being, if not exactly Martin Riggish suicidal cop, more reckless cuz she didn't care that much about her life or more of a vigilante hiding behind a badge-type (not sure KK would have signed on for that character though). Vincent could have been the one who had learned the danger of pursuing the angry path and who "saved" Cat's soul. Instead the Pilot script describes her as having "pluck and humor," she's got friends, isn't dysfunctional and was supposedly a good cop if you over look the first thing you see her doing as a cop and then killing someone and leaving a crime scene with three dead bodies. LOL I wanted 405 to have Vincent go back to his decision to enlist since he said in the pilot that he was so angry. Then Cat's mom would have been killed in Afghanistan and not in front of Cat. Cat doesn't have the guilt of her mom's death weighing on her and doesn't change from law to order. Maybe all their lives are better. But if they wanted to show Cat's life better with V or at least no worse, then they could have had the 405 world be one in which some grisly murders from Muirfield escapees are frequently occurring in NY. Maybe Heather was a victim and Cat is in danger cuz she's going after Muirfield as a lawyer. Vincent is a doctor and with Alex but encounters Cat in the hospital and a beast attacks but he can't save her cuz he's got no beastly abilities.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Aug 22, 2016 19:10:23 GMT -5
^you're right pippin. It's been a while since I've watched 405, I had forgotten how it was setup.
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Post by bbatb on Aug 23, 2016 7:32:31 GMT -5
In 405, I don't think Cat was shown to be in danger from Muirfield until Vincent popped back into her life. By inserting himself back into her "life," he sets off the chain of events leading Muirfield to use her as bait. Of course in the Pilot his corrupted DNA on Ashley sets off Cat to contact FBI / Muirfield.Well, did not Evan get Catherine on Muirfield's radar, because he is jealous/suspicious of Vincent. And how did Evan even know that M. was looking for Vincent?? Okay, so he may be a scientist in this universe and M. apparently approached him. But why would they even want him? Without the corrupted DNA he came across at the precinct he would not be of interest to M. at all? And how does M. even know that Vincent is alive? In this universe, Vincent did not leave DNA on Ashley, Catherine did not contact the FBI/M. with said corrupted DNA, so M. does not even KNOW that Vincent is alive and well in NYC. And he and JT should still be living in the warehouse and not in those tunnels. I guess I am overthinking this again. It was a good episode, really good, but full of plotholes.
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Post by joyabeast on Aug 23, 2016 8:23:06 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat
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Post by bbatb on Aug 23, 2016 10:12:27 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat Okay, so he DID try to save Ashley and he DID leave DNA on her body and Catherine and Tess DID come to see JT at the warehouse. BUT, Catherine did NOT contact the FBI/Muirfield with the DNA sample, because if she did, she would have died on those train tracks.... So, again: Muirfield does NOT know about Vincent's DNA showing up.
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Post by joyabeast on Aug 23, 2016 11:03:31 GMT -5
Just because Cat didn't contract FBI doesn't mean M wouldn't know. I mean Vincent didn't just save Cat he saved many more people over the years,I sure they would have somehow come to know about it.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:10:25 GMT -5
In 405, I don't think Cat was shown to be in danger from Muirfield until Vincent popped back into her life. By inserting himself back into her "life," he sets off the chain of events leading Muirfield to use her as bait. Of course in the Pilot his corrupted DNA on Ashley sets off Cat to contact FBI / Muirfield. The precinct hostage was only because of Vincent and that stupid gem plot. But wasn't she out there investigating with Gabe because they thought it was beast-related? The bike messenger was in the 2nd episode, but he did save her twice in the Pilot when her mother was killed and then in the subway. But if he doesn't leave his corrupted DNA at the crime scene, Cat doesn't call FBI/Muirfield and doesn't get lured into the subway Tess getting shot in the sewer was were very much linked to Vincent, and JT's whole situation is all about Vincent. I was thinking,in season 1 especially, since the show was very much a procedural, the writers could have had Tess be in danger from a case that had no relation to Vincent at all. They could have introduced a non-Muirfield related bad, like some gang that Cat and Tess were investigating who would have killed Tess if Vincent hadn't saved her. They could even have had Sara be a psycho who went fatal attraction on JT or something so their lives weren't in danger only because of Vincent. They did better with Evan since Peter was his intern even if he wanted to re-create a Vincent kill, and Sabrina, although Vincent brought the case to Cat, but those were good non-beast related vililans. I think 405 did touch on something that might have made a better or more interesting case for the Vincent saving Cat angle but Cat would have had to been written very differently in the first season. pippin , you're starting to make me think that Cat, the Scooby gang, and everyone who's died in this show really would have been better without Vincent in their lives. So 405 was wrong, or was it? I also just realized that the flaw in 405 is that Cat is still alive. She should have died the night her mother was murdered without V there to save her. Ah, this bit I am sure of. In 405, Cat HAD been rescued by Vincent on the night her mum was shot but she didn't actually MEET him. He killed the assassins, then ran away. When Cat came to the Wharehouse because Vincent's prints turned up on the buttons of her murder victime, he remained concealed and THAT'S where the story was different. At the end of Vincent's dream in 405, when she and Vincent are running, she realises that he was the beast that saved her all those years before. So Cat would not have been dead. She lived on the night her mum died bit didn;t meet Vincent 10 years later.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:28:39 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat Except for one big difference. Cat had fallen into a marriage with Evan despite NOT being in love with him. She still had NO answers on her mum's death and still thought it was HER fault as she had called her mum out to help her start the car, because her battery was flat as she left the vanity mirror open. In the real world, she has found answers, been angry with and forgiven her mum AND she has met and fallen in love with Vincent. Whatever craziness him being in her life has cause her, she feels it's all still worth it because she has met her soul-mate and is happy.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:30:44 GMT -5
pippin , you're starting to make me think that Cat, the Scooby gang, and everyone who's died in this show really would have been better without Vincent in their lives. So 405 was wrong, or was it? I also just realized that the flaw in 405 is that Cat is still alive. She should have died the night her mother was murdered without V there to save her. Ah, this bit I am sure of. In 405, Cat HAD been rescued by Vincent on the night her mum was shot but she didn't actually MEET him. He killed the assassins, then ran away. When Cat came to the Wharehouse because Vincent's prints turned up on the buttons of her murder victime, he remained concealed and THAT'S where the story was different. At the end of Vincent's dream in 405, when she and Vincent are running, she realises that he was the beast that saved her all those years before. So Cat would not have been dead. She lived on the night her mum died bit didn't meet Vincent 10 years later. Oops. Sorry, BeastieBoy. I can now see this matter has been addressed and clarified by another post.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:35:15 GMT -5
M would still know that Vincent was alive because in 405 V said to JT that a cop came looking for him 4 years ago and that cop was Cat,so that means V did leave his print in Ashley's body. And though some of you guys think that Cat was more traumtized in 405 than piliot I think Cat was same she had the same friends and 405 is 4 years later after pilot so obviously she will be more frustrated about her mom case and Evan and Cat had something going on from the start ,it was because of V she didn't follow it through. So for me the world was exactly how it would be with V meeting Cat Except for one big difference. Cat had fallen into a marriage with Evan despite NOT being in love with him. She still had NO answers on her mum's death and still thought it was HER fault as she had called her mum out to help her start the car, because her battery was flat as she left the vanity mirror open. In the real world, she has found answers, been angry with and forgiven her mum AND she has met and fallen in love with Vincent. Whatever craziness him being in her life has caused her, she feels it's all still worth it because she has met her soul-mate.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Aug 24, 2016 14:37:27 GMT -5
I was thinking about your post Pippin and had a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I didn't actually mind the idea of VinCat trying to run away as, although it was flirted with in Season 1, when they wanted to run off to Denver from Muirfield after Vincent was supposedly on the way to being 'cured' by Gabe's magic pill, they didn't actually do it for reasons we all know about. Again, in Season 2, Vincent was reluctant then ready to take Cat to Canada and Cat was ready then reluctant so again, it didn't happen. Vincent decided to stay and fight and persuaded Cat, and they still had the promise of an exoneration. But this time, there really seems to be no other option. No exoneration is on the table, no matter what they do and how many lives they save by bringing down this new beast. Vincent will be made an example of, for killing Hill, even though Hill was ultimately a coward who broke the law himself by hiring hit-men to kill Vincent, Cat, Tess and JT. One glimmer of light on the horizon though. Agent Dillon does now accept that Vincent is not a bad guy, but says that the powers that be do not see things the same way. On the subject of the fake IDs, they may not still have them. Cat got them when she was an NYPD Dectective. She is not in a position to get more as she has lost both her NYPD and DHS badges. Also, they were only going to Denver, not leaving the country, so this time they needed passports, not IDs. Last time, they were only running from Muirfield, not the law. This time, they would be running from every law enforcement body in the US. One other question. Why is Vincent the reason Cat's father (Thomas Chandler) was killed? I thought this was one of the many unanswered BATB questions. Thomas was on his way to see Cat and had a tablet on him which, when brought back to life, showed a picture of Bob Reynolds. I thought at the end of Season 1 that Bob Reynolds had Thomas Chandler killed to stop him telling Cat who her real father was. After all, he murdered Tyler in cold blood and left Gabe for dead so I wouldn't have put it past him. However, I changed my mind when Bob finally spoke to Cat as her father, as I realised that, although Bob was a bad man, he would not have killed Thomas. Then I just assumed Muirfield killed him for some reason we would find out in Season 2. But we never did. On the Heather front, when Cat was going to leave for Canada with Vincent, Heather was working in Miami, so essentially, she had already left Cat. Also, leaving Heather this time around wouldn't have to be the end. Cat and Vincent might not be able to come back but that would not stop Heather going to see them once they were settled somewhere. Oh, I don't think VinCat leaving is bad in theory, and I thought the scene between Heather and Cat was nice cuz KK and Nicole did a good job and we know the show is ending, but it's another been there done that plus the fact VinCat didn't seem overly upset by the prospect of leaving the previous times. Whenever VinCat tried to leave before, it should also have meant no contact with the ones they left behind. If you are on the run or in hiding you can't be skyping, phoning, texting your loved ones and they can't be visiting you, which wasn't the case when Heather moved to Miami but was the case in S1, S2 and 411. I think one of the problems with S1 was having Muirfield after them from the get go. It's one thing to choose to put yourself in danger chasing bad guys, but it's another to endanger the lives of your friends and family cuz of your relationship. But since the show wasn't set up to be Highway to Heaven-like, I think it would have been better if they delayed Muirfield's involvement. In BITNB, I thought the only reason Cat didn't leave with V was because the police and their helicopter were right there and she was afraid she would slow him down and he would get caught. But they could have made V come back because he sensed Cat was in danger rather than his, "I don't want to run anymore" stance. Given their situation, I'm not sure why VinCat wouldn't have hung onto their fake IDs but since they were going to Canada in S2 wouldn't they have needed passports then? Of course might be easier to cross into Canada rather than TRY TO GET ON A PLANE. LOL Roger Grant @rogerallengrant frockie Thomas Chandler was killed by Zhao, who we then met in the S2 premiere. I assume Thomas wouldn't have been killed if Cat hadn't been in a relationship with V. Not sure why kill Thomas and not Cat or maybe Souders and Peterson or Levin and Cooper had something they planned to reveal about Thomas. or just something like whatever was in Vanessa's file in HOD that was so "big" they couldn't tell Cat, but yet Levin and Cooper wondered what the fans were even asking about at NYCC. To me your Bob reasoning makes more sense given that we didn't get anything on screen. In my season two, Gabe would confess to Cat that he had hired someone to go after Thomas to distract her while he got what he needed from V. Gabe would confess this to try and stop Cat from saving him when he was trykilled ing to kill himself after discovering that his beastly side was no longer dormant. Wow, I have never seen this tweet and had no idea Zhao had had Thomas Chandler killed. It still begs the question 'Why?'
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Post by joyabeast on Aug 24, 2016 15:25:22 GMT -5
I think since Bob was invloved with M he saved Thomas from M before though he couldn't save Venessa. But we come to know in 122 that he was out of the country and was coming back and may be Zhao had came to know about Thomas and killed him.
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Post by Andromeda03 on Aug 25, 2016 18:15:25 GMT -5
Happy Episode Day for US Beasties!Alright everyone, here we are. I've gone ahead and moved the thread in prep for tonight. Happy viewing and enjoy the episode everyone!
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