|
Post by bbat on Oct 26, 2015 11:31:45 GMT -5
My feeling is that if the show had been able to hang onto even half of its original demo and viewership, the Studio and/or Network might not have brought in a new showrunner. Souders said that she and Peterson were brought on just to "help get it off its feet" but those two stayed on Smallville from S2 until its end, 9 season later. S&P moved from BATB to consulting producers for 1 season of Under the Dome , another CBS Studio produced show. I'm thinking they may have had an initial two year contract or something with the Studio, so when they got moved off of BATB, CBS finished out their contract by having them serve as "consulting producers" on Under the Dome. If you go back and read the S1 episode threads, the show seemed to lose much of its appeal for a number of people because of the way Vincent was written during the Alex arc. Then when VinCat got together, there was much complaining about the repetitive normal normal normal dialogue, how come there wasn't another AMP type scene especially in Date Night, killing off of Evan, terrible season 1 finale, not epic at all and so S2 premieres to only a 0.3 Not that it matters anymore but CBS Studios Crazy Ex-Girlfriend premiered to an unrounded demo of 0.274 and its 2nd episode came in at 0.270 and 790k viewers. To be fair, the show was pre-empted in NY (the #1 market) but when your viewing numbers are low to begin with, there aren't too many people watching in any market to begin with. Considering it was the only show to debut this fall on the CW and had a metacritic score 44 points higher than Beauty's, those numbers are horrible. Friday's episode of Reign has a prelim. demo of 02. (unrounded 0.236) and 930,000 viewers with ANTM at 0.2 (unrounded 0.244) and only 730,000 viewers. This won't get Beauty a season 5, but at least our S3 numbers don't look so bad, especially considering that these show aren't being shown 4 days earlier in Canada. I can understand why a lot of people got upset during the Alex arc. My own feelings at the time were quite dark, too, but I was hooked by then and way to deeply invested into the story and our lead couple to give up that easily. Apparently, many other people just did not feel that deeply about it YET. I guess the producers threw that Alex road block up in order to delay VinCat getting together even sooner, but it could have been written a lot better than it was. At times it felt as if the writers had written themselves into a corner and they did not really know how to get out of it again, so some of the dialogue was really questionable. Like Vincent telling Catherine that even though he planned to go away with Alex, it was 'not happlily'! What kind of crappy line is that? He would have been unhappy with Alex in Mexico, but he was going anyway and thereby making BOTH women and himself unhappy? Who would do something like this? Anyway, done and dusted and over. I still consider S1 MAGICAL and the plot holes in there are adorable, compared to the ones in the following seasons. Towards the end of S1 the repetitive words got quite grating on the nerves, I agree, but still not as bad as all the rehashing of phantom issues we got in the beginning of S3. And at least they did not sit around at the beginning of the episodes and explained to each other - or sometimes Heather, Tess or JT - what has happened in the previous episode. Also, we got to SEE their special, epic love and we did not have to listen to all and sundry TELL us about how wonderful, special and epic they are. Oh, and I have given up hoping for another AMP-ish love scene. It would have been nice to see some more of that - sure - but would that have helped the ratings? Doubtful, since it seems once viewers left, they did NOT come back for a second look. Thank you, that's how I feel about season 1 and what followed described in a nutshell! I think after ratings dropped further towards the end of season 1 CBS and The CW tried to react, but they misjudged the reasons and made all the wrong decisions. While I hoped some of the criticism about the partially bad or awkward dialogue had reached their ears and that they exchanged these many writers/producers to improve dialogue quality, it turned out they thought season 1 was lacking in the action and mythology department. So Brad Kern took out many elements of season 1, but his "replacements" were in no way better. While you could still see Sherri Cooper and Jennifer Levin's handwriting in s02, even that was gone in s03, and all we were left with was unimaginative writing and a false understanding of "romance", IMO. One would think the lines couldn’t get more repetitive than they were already in season 2, but they really outdid themselves in s03. The constant repetition of dialogue and themes was so off putting for me, that I couldn't bring myself to watch an episode twice, sometimes I even waited a few days to watch a new episode. I will never understand why no one realizes something like this during production. Or, couldn't the actors point it out to the writers? If I would receive scripts like this, I certainly would complain about having to say the same lines and words over and over again, lol. OK, so now I've expressed my disappointment with season 03. For me there were only 2 or 3 well paced and kind of gripping episodes, and only a few scenes I really liked and wanted to rewatch. After every season I hope they learned from previous mistakes, but so far every time it only got worse, so I don't expect anything from season 04 anymore. But as they say, hope dies last, and I will stick to this show till the end anyway
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 26, 2015 11:44:13 GMT -5
Well, ' dwayne1111' that is a loaded question. The things that almost made me give up in S2 were only partially present in S3 and that is a 'good thing'. What bothered me so much in S2 - besides the stupid love triangles - was the character assassination of our lead couple. Not to rehash everything AGAIN, but it started with the destruction of 'epic love' when Vincent pushed Catherine to the ground. MY understanding of this 'epic' love was that Catherine was the only one who could approach Vincent in beast mode without fear and without risk. She did this already very early in their relationship - even before they were a couple - and for me THAT was part of their destiny and was the basic fabric of their epicness. To me it does not only count that they eventually got back together and that they now (hopefully) stay together, but what they did in between. Nobody who shares epic love can have done what they did to each other in S2! And that has repercussions - for ME - in S3. There are so many unanswered questions in their relationship and instead of drumming up non-existent, stupid, psycho-babble issues (primal fear when moving in, co-dependency, denial, etc.) I would have loved for them to have a REAL relationship talk and would have wanted to hear: 1. how did Vincent cut lose from Tori's so-called overwhelming influence over him? How could he let her weave her spell over him without any resistance on his part in the first place? 2. why did Catherine find it necessary to define herself by another man and especially by the man she chose? How can she justify that she started a relationship with the very man who tried to kill her and Vincent only a short time ago? And I do not want to hear that he 'redeemed' himself, because there is no statute of limitations for attempted murder in my universe. I am funny about these things and I DO hold a grudge if somebody wants to kill me. Juliana was a waste of time - they should have brought on Liam from the beginning. Not showing him right away, but building up to the really BIG BAD reveal - he was awesome and could have been used better. Sorry for all the Bob lovers, but he IS a murderer and should have NOT been back. He killed Tyler in cold blood and until they tell me why, it was for no reason at all. And all the terrible things he did to Vincent in those 3 months - there is no redemption for all that either - but, I already mentioned that I am funny about these things. And I hated for Catherine to call him DAD. The writers have a tendency to forget about atrocities - like the things Bob did - and also for example in 'Operation Fake Date', there was no mention at all about 'the one whose name I will never mention/type again' having just killed Jack Watson - not to even recall all the beast killings of S1 he committed. So Catherine blithely goes on a date with a known murderer and says to Vincent it only bothers her because it will bother him. Huh?? And later she tells the cuffed ex-ADA that she went on this date with an open heart, not a romantic one, but she wanted to find the man he used to be. HUH??? Ooops this was a digression into S2. Catherine's character assassination continued on S3 IMO when she almost killed a sick old man and then almost killed Juliana. I said it before and I will stick by it. THAT was NOT my Catherine, the cop, the 'all-about-justice-and-doing-the-right-thing' Catherine. Yeah, Juliana tried to kill Vincent and that was bad, but last year somebody else tried to kill Vincent and she went to bed with him. HUH?? And then of course there was the missing romance. Two awesome episodes to bookend an entire season are just not enough, if they are holding on to this concept of their EPIC LOVE. But there has been pages of discussion on THAT subject, so I will stop now. This got rather long, but you did ask. All in all - maybe I will mellow with time, because this is what we have and there is nothing we can do. I am starting to like parts of S2 - the sizzling parts did really sizzle and I fast-forward over the bad stuff. Maybe S3 will grow on me. I have watched it 12 times in its entirety now and it seems to be getting better.
|
|
|
Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Oct 26, 2015 11:43:55 GMT -5
I originally liked the Slow-Burn reveal of Season 3 as well as Liam's character and ultimate reveal. However, Liam came along too late in the season, and I most certainly did NOT like VinCat's portrayal through most of the season. I kept expecting them to have that come-together moment that never happened, and I never felt that powerful romantic pull that you saw in Season 1 and parts of Season 2. So I actually DID feel that what was best about the show was gone in Season 3.
I agree that the network never knew what to do with BATB. You had two leads with powerful chemistry. And if you DON'T get the leads together, or do something so completely contrived to keep them apart (memory wipe/triangles), you also lose viewers.
BATB ended up going down almost the EXACT same road that "Dark Angel" did--Manticore was their "Muirfield" in Season 1. Only to have the direction COMPLETELY change starting with the first episode of Season 2, by their decision to also simply "burn down" Manticore so easily and have it gone and decimated. After it had been this government-entity that had lasted for YEARS undercover, genetically engineering humans with "animal DNA" same as Muirfield. They then tried to bring in a more Supernatural-style villain and third-party triangles which ruined the show. So it got cancelled. (Don't get me wrong---I stuck with watching it through to the bitter end BECAUSE of the chemistry between the Genetically-enhanced Super Soldier on the run Max and the guy that helped her. Like BATB, that powerful potential between the Main Two made it worth the while, despite all the horrible plot failures.)
I admit that I felt Vincent should have had to pay more for the Alex-bungle of Season 1. And the "fugue" state stuff that had REAL potential to create an almost schizophrenic Vincent that could have turned into a much better and longer-lasting plotline, ESPECIALLY if it forced Vincent to HAVE to return to Muirfield. Making the couple have to work so much harder for their come-together might have kept more fans, but then it might not. Like I said above, failing to actually get the two leads together in "Dark Angel" and making it virtually impossible for them to do so really seemed to be the death-knell for the show.
I also hate that we missed so many little moments of Vincent and Catherine actually getting to KNOW one another and bond together. I mean, we got to hear about picnics on the roof and meeting after cases and talking into the night (such as before her birthday), but we didn't actually get to SEE those moments. Which could have been interesting and illuminating. "Roswell" was a show that really captured those "little moments" between the leads that the fans adored.
I also liked the idea of Vincent's DNA "mutating" and causing further potential issues. All of that got dropped in favor of basically changing Beast-history and even the idea of having Animal DNA fused with Human (Season 1) into simply "activating" a long dormant-gene from prehistoric times. Sigh. Never really did see the point of wasting time with Vincent being supposedly "driven" to find out about his long-dead beastly ancestors. BATB also struggled with just how supernatural it should go. If there was a supposed 5-year plan, then someone should have had a better roadmap then what they did.
But despite its failures (and yes, from a writing-standpoint, there were very very many), still loved this little show to near madness. Again, because of the leads. Those certain VinCat scenes made it ALL worthwhile. And I just loved the characters, even those interacting with the leads. Give me more of those perfect moments in Season 4 and I am happy, even if the plotline falls short. At least Season 3 DID tie up some of the previous loose ends AND made sense out of the previous "searches" and compulsions of the previous two seasons!
|
|
|
Post by pippin on Oct 27, 2015 9:36:17 GMT -5
I think that that during S1 who was magical Showrunner didn't anderstand that the viewer of BATB were not teenager but adult who belive in true love and with Alex's arc it was hard and i didn't really anderstand it but most of #Beastie think Cat was he's 2nd choice so rating? . Idem for S2 with Tori or Gabe for me S2 was a big mess. We didn't find magical of S1 maybe some time but with Tori's Arc all was not reel so rating? . With S3 I don't how i feel i think maybe i must watch it again. I'm.sad because i like to watch Kk and JR together i love the story of BATB ... Some fanfiction are better than S2 & S3 i'm waiting S4 hope it will be an amazing final ? I think the network and studio understood who their audience was but it just wasn't the audience that the advertisers paid to get. Advertisers pay for the 18-49 year old viewers and the CW's target demo was women 18-34 but if Beauty was mainly attracting people who were 50 + , the show wasn't attracting the "right" audience so that leads to the retooling and new show runner.
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 27, 2015 12:20:49 GMT -5
I have read about this before somewhere else ' pippin' - thanks for confirming that - but it does not make a lot sense, at least to me. Why would the 18-49 age group have more money to spend than somewhat older folks? If they are passionate about something - and we are REALLY passionate - would older people not also spend money on the products advertised in their favorite show. I know that many fans were writing to the companies supporting the show about how much they loved their products and that they were buying them. What 18 year old would do something like that? I even wrote to KIA and told them that my buying descision for my KIA Sorento was influenced by their sponsoring BATB (S1) and not only by their outstanding product. I was totally laying it on, of course, but it turned out that the car IS a gem, by the way. I know it is what it is, but this American system of determining target audiences and also the overaged Nielson ratings system baffles me to no end. But this is like fighting windmills and it will not change any time soon. It is just very sad that they destroyed a beautiful fairytale love story in order to attract a different audience and it did not even work, because the ratings did NOT go up and we probably have the same age group that we started out with - only fewer viewers than before.
|
|
|
Post by pippin on Oct 30, 2015 0:47:27 GMT -5
I have read about this before somewhere else ' pippin' - thanks for confirming that - but it does not make a lot sense, at least to me. Why would the 18-49 age group have more money to spend than somewhat older folks? If they are passionate about something - and we are REALLY passionate - would older people not also spend money on the products advertised in their favorite show. I know that many fans were writing to the companies supporting the show about how much they loved their products and that they were buying them. What 18 year old would do something like that? I even wrote to KIA and told them that my buying descision for my KIA Sorento was influenced by their sponsoring BATB (S1) and not only by their outstanding product. I was totally laying it on, of course, but it turned out that the car IS a gem, by the way. I know it is what it is, but this American system of determining target audiences and also the overaged Nielson ratings system baffles me to no end. But this is like fighting windmills and it will not change any time soon. It is just very sad that they destroyed a beautiful fairytale love story in order to attract a different audience and it did not even work, because the ratings did NOT go up and we probably have the same age group that we started out with - only fewer viewers than before. Season 3 actually averaged more viewers than season 2, unfortunately, there were even less of them in the desired age group. For the advertisers, it's not always about who has more money to spend, it's about whose attention is harder to capture. Here's a link to what advertisers are paying for 30 second spots on the 5 broadcast networks' shows adage.com/article/media/ad-pricing-chart-sunday-night-football-empire-broadcasts-most-expensive-ad-buys/300516/
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 30, 2015 3:23:52 GMT -5
Wow pippin what a great read! Our show is not even listed, but America's next Top Model is? But even successful shows like Arrow are really 'cheap' as far as advertising goes. I can see that all the CW shows are really cheap, compared to the larger networks - no surprise to you, but an interesting read for me. Thanks for putting this up. In S1 we had heavy product placement with the cars Catherine drove. She drove several KIA models in various episodes. In 'Heart Of Darkness' she even demonstrated to JT how she can push a button and the mirrors fold in. JT says that he should get a car like that. In S2 she got Sally and the Ford emblem was clearly visible, but later that got removed. Maybe because Ford was no longer a sponsor, but they were allowed to keep the car? Other than the cars I did not notice any heavy product placement. Did you? Still not quite clear about why it is important to get 'difficult to reach viewers' instead of passionate viewers with money to spend. Isn't is all about getting the product SOLD? But no matter. You do not have to give me a detailed explanation into marketing stategies. LOL. I am a linguist and marketing is not 'my cup of tea' - that has too much to do with numbers and math and I detest math.
|
|
|
Post by BeastieBoy on Oct 30, 2015 4:58:47 GMT -5
Wow pippin what a great read! Our show is not even listed, but America's next Top Model is? But even successful shows like Arrow are really 'cheap' as far as advertising goes. I can see that all the CW shows are really cheap, compared to the larger networks - no surprise to you, but an interesting read for me. Thanks for putting this up. In S1 we had heavy product placement with the cars Catherine drove. She drove several KIA models in various episodes. In 'Heart Of Darkness' she even demonstrated to JT how she can push a button and the mirrors fold in. JT says that he should get a car like that. In S2 she got Sally and the Ford emblem was clearly visible, but later that got removed. Maybe because Ford was no longer a sponsor, but they were allowed to keep the car? Other than the cars I did not notice any heavy product placement. Did you? Still not quite clear about why it is important to get 'difficult to reach viewers' instead of passionate viewers with money to spend. Isn't is all about getting the product SOLD? But no matter. You do not have to give me a detailed explanation into marketing stategies. LOL. I am a linguist and marketing is not 'my cup of tea' - that has too much to do with numbers and math and I detest math. ANTM is still on as part of the Fall line up. That's why it's listed and we're not. I'm no expert, but while older viewers have more money to spend, it's the younger viewers who spend more. If you know what I mean...
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 30, 2015 6:39:40 GMT -5
I don't know BeastieBoy - I fall into this 'not so much desired group' of viewers and I spend plenty of money if I like something or if I am passionate about something. For example I own both seasons on dvd 3 times and I have bought them at least another 10 times as gifts for friends and family and with another Christmas approaching, I have to check my list ( and check it twice) to see who has not received one yet.
|
|
|
Post by BeastieBoy on Oct 31, 2015 0:51:19 GMT -5
I don't know BeastieBoy - I fall into this 'not so much desired group' of viewers and I spend plenty of money if I like something or if I am passionate about something. For example I own both seasons on dvd 3 times and I have bought them at least another 10 times as gifts for friends and family and with another Christmas approaching, I have to check my list ( and check it twice) to see who has not received one yet. I'm sure the production companies behind BATB are happy if you buy the DVDs or the seasons on iTunes or Amazon, but that doesn't help the advertisers running commercials. Have you really watched the commercials on the CW while BATB airs? The products are all aimed at a fairly young demographic, I'd guess the 18-35 year old group. Things like Old Navy, Maybelline "Manga" eyelash, iPhone6, sports drinks, fast food, things for an active sporty lifestyle etc. Aside from the Ford or Kia cars, all the stuff being advertised is fairly affordable and targeting a young audience. Right or wrong, that's the demographic these companies are targeting to sell their products. If that audience doesn't tune in, these advertisers lose out.
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 31, 2015 7:53:35 GMT -5
Okay, I can see where you are going with this and the dvd purchases were just one example of my spending. Still, I think the advertising companies are putting certain age groups into certain drawers and maybe they should change their mind set.
The somewhat 'older' folks of my generation are NOT just grandmas who sit at home and knit (although a lot of them ARE grandmas and DO knit beautiful things), but we are also active and very loyal members of fitness centers, or at least have a healthy and active lifestyle, use laptops, pads and i-phones, ect. The over 50 crowd of today is a lot more active and interested and modern than let's say my parent's generation.
Except for the sports drinks (which I equate with energy drinks and which are (IMO) quite unhealthy) I would buy or have bought every single item you listed. I know that our discussion in here - athough a lot of fun and very informative - will not change how the advertising companies think. But it is kinda sad that our beloved show got 'revamped' due to some cliché that - again IMHO - is not 100% valid anymore.
|
|
|
Post by BeastieBoy on Oct 31, 2015 12:54:48 GMT -5
I once read somewhere that one of the reasons advertisers target younger adults is because they want to build brand loyalty.
I'm in the 18-49 target demo, but I no longer fall within the 18-35 preferred demo group. Speaking for myself, I've become somewhat a creature of habit. I know what I like and I buy the same stuff over and over.
Watching a commercial rarely influences me to switch from one brand to another if I already like a certain brand. But when I was in my 20's, many of my brand preferences weren't established. That was the time when such commercials might have swayed me more to try one brand vs. another.
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Oct 31, 2015 14:55:11 GMT -5
You are right about being a creature of habit - I stay with i-phones and only trade up to the newest one and my husband does the same with his brand cell phone, so we are 'brand loyal' that much is true. But I personally use ads as information gathering and if it catches my interest, I am very well ready to try something new. But that might just be me.
And I am always susceptible to Fast Food Ads. LOL.
|
|
|
Post by BeastieBoy on Jan 10, 2016 22:00:24 GMT -5
Rachel Bloom has won the Golden Globe for best actress in a TV comedy or musical. For the 2nd year in a row, the CW has a Golden Globe for a poorly rated show. Hence, likely giving Crazy-Ex GF a second season renewal despite it's low ratings.
The CW has probably forgotten all about our 4th PCA win by now, further reducing whatever slim chance we had at reversing their cancellation of BATB. Not that we ever had a realistic chance of a cancellation reversal anyway.
I've never watched Crazy-Ex, but congrats to Rachel regardless.
|
|
|
Post by bbatb on Jan 11, 2016 3:40:28 GMT -5
I am begining to suspect foul play here. LOL. How on earth can THIS show win a Golden Globe? I watched the pilot for about 15 minutes and then switched it off. But then again I could not believe that Jane The Virgin deserved a Golden Globe either last year. But that is just me, there must be SOMEBODY out there watching. To get back to our discussion further up, maybe these few viewers ARE at least in the desired age group and that is why the CW channel is soooo proud of these shows. Our PCA wins do not impress Mark Pedowitz AT ALL - the fans of our show are not the ones he and the ad companies want, so the show gets axed and he has already forgotten about it I am sure. To be fair, he is a businessman and NOT a passionate fan and he DID give us 4 seasons and I will always be grateful for that (even if I think he made a grave mistake by calling in BK as showrunner). Of course that does not change my desire to have more seasons. But honestly, it does not look good: the actors are moving on, the set has by now probably been dismantled and all the props are gone.....
|
|