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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 17:46:22 GMT -5
Idk, for them to have kissed at that point would have been a bit odd for me. After all, they didn't kiss in the real world until many months later. Furthermore, in the dream world she's married to Evan. That wouldn't have been right for her to so suddenly just switch to Vincent and kiss him no less. I think because Cat was married to Evan, they could only go so far with the VinCat interactions in the dream world, otherwise it would reflect poorly on Cat's character. This is true. I wasn't even really thinking that far ahead, I was totally in the moment lol, but you are right. That's what makes this episode such a breath of fresh air! The intensity of the episode was so strong that it was very easy to get lost in the moments. It was one of those episodes where I was just glued to my seat, enjoying the ride the whole time. Very little exposition, they just let the story unfold, the kind of episode that has been long over due.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 18:35:35 GMT -5
This is true. I wasn't even really thinking that far ahead, I was totally in the moment lol, but you are right. That's what makes this episode such a breath of fresh air! The intensity of the episode was so strong that it was very easy to get lost in the moments. It was one of those episodes where I was just glued to my seat, enjoying the ride the whole time. Very little exposition, they just let the story unfold, the kind of episode that has been long over due. Yes!
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Post by Suzieq ❤️ Beastie on Jun 27, 2016 20:22:33 GMT -5
Just popped in to say how JEALOUS I am that you all have seen the episode early! I just skim around and not read about story info just if people Liked/Loved the episode. It seems many enjoyed it. So I am excited to see it on Thursday! I may be chatting by myself but I don't care as long as it is bringing the VinCat feels! Bring IT!
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Post by jefferen on Jun 27, 2016 20:50:10 GMT -5
Just popped in to say how JEALOUS I am that you all have seen the episode early! I just skim around and not read about story info just if people Liked/Loved the episode. It seems many enjoyed it. So I am excited to see it on Thursday! I may be chatting by myself but I don't care as long as it is bringing the VinCat feels! Bring IT! Trust me, lots of VinCat feels!!! i
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Post by pippin on Jun 27, 2016 21:29:20 GMT -5
I just watched. OMG!!!! This episode did not disappoint!!! Probably the best overall episode in a very long time. I was on the edge of my seat. It was great being relatively spoiler free, I had no idea Reynolds would also be in this ep. I kind of wish they could have gotten Joe in there as well. Unfortunately, I had seen a pic with Ted, so I knew Reynolds was going to be in there too. Ted is in TO so that's probably an easier, cheaper get for them than Brian and they already had to bring in Max. I was sort of hoping they would have Cat's real dad be alive, like Heather and he could have been at the anniversary party but again, Nicole might be only 10 out of 13 again and Rob Stewart would take away $$ as well.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 21:31:43 GMT -5
Just popped in to say how JEALOUS I am that you all have seen the episode early! I just skim around and not read about story info just if people Liked/Loved the episode. It seems many enjoyed it. So I am excited to see it on Thursday! I may be chatting by myself but I don't care as long as it is bringing the VinCat feels! Bring IT! I think many, including myself, will be around on Thu to discuss this one! You won't be alone, that's for sure!
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Post by pippin on Jun 27, 2016 22:12:13 GMT -5
And I, too, wonder if Vincent's dream-mind isn't trying to TELL him something regarding Muirfield. We certainly know that beast experiments were happening OUTSIDE of Muirfield, as Sam was part of beast "trials" on sick kids. So Muirfield was certainly MORE than just one man. And once that one man was gone, those scientists and agents left might have been hired by others. So it may be that the "big bad" of this season DOES have ties back to Muirfield. Because all of this cloak and dagger stuff sounds straight out of the Muirfield playbook.
WhenWillTHURSDAYbeHERE? The wait is SERIOUSLY killing me! Give ME MORE DEETS on VINCAT interaction, people! For me, the VinCat interaction was good, especially the scene where Cat finally draws Vincent back into the real world. In terms of VinCat-ness, it had the potential to be one of the all time epic greats, but for me, just fell a little short in certain areas: - The rooftop moment seemed like it was going to be a "big moment", but then Cat ruins it by slugging Vincent. Someone else told me that the scene would have been better if Cat simply ran away with mixed emotion. - The other big scene in the dream sequence was the moment Cat realized it was Vincent that saved her 10 years ago. But it was a bit too rushed, since they were in the middle of Muirfiled coming after them full guns a blazing. And I really wanted Cat to say again "you're him". If they had developed those two scenes a little better, it would have rivaled the old S1 VinCat for me. Just like how one can't help but compare 404 to S1's Date Night, it's hard not to compare this episode to S1's Heart of Darkness. HOD had that fantastic VinCat subway scene at the end. Where Vincent finds Cat and tells her that she walking up those steps was the happiest day in his life. While VinCat certainly had their moments in this one, it fell a little short of that level of greatness for me. Ironic how in this episode, that first warehouse meeting that Vincent talks about in 1x18's subway convo, never occurred in this dream sequence - changing everything. For me, another neat little connection to HOD. Still, this was a really great episode, they delivered far more than I expected. Albeit, my bar has been set low and I tried to stay quite spoiler free (like not watching the 405 preview at the end of 404) in order to enjoy this episode to its fullest. Ha, Cat punching V. was one of my favorite moments in the episode. I laughed out loud. Cat's lulling viewers in with the vulnerable feels and then pow. The show rarely manages to surprise so I thought that was fun. Like Bridesmaid Up, I knew Cat was going to be in a car accident, but I thought it was going to be Muirfield running her off the road but it ends up being Sabrina and then she doesn't just wreck her car, she calmly coldly gets out and shoots her too. I always thought Cat's line should have been, "You are real" rather than "You're him," which would reinforce the notion that Cat had spent the last 9 years thinking she was crazy
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 23:14:33 GMT -5
Rewatching for the first time and I think it's great detail that Vincent had JT bring the tranq gun when threatening Reynolds. My assumption is that he wants to avoid mistakes of the past (and hurting Catherine as a result)? If so, I like that nod to continuity.
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Post by pippin on Jun 27, 2016 23:23:11 GMT -5
Oh it was soon great! I loved having Evan back, even if he wasn't his playboy self. but why do we always need to see him die!? The love of VinCat was so touching I cried a whole bunch. I loved also that Vincent could finally deal with some of the stuff that was unsettling him deep down. A great ep altogether! Most importantly I'm super sure now that the big bad of the season is Muirfield once again. There have been so many nods to that already this season. Yes, for a showing shedding viewers every week, I thought it was foolish to kill Evan off, but maybe Max had been told his role would be bigger so when they didn't go with the triangle, they wrote him out so he could pursue other opportunities. Or since they kept morphing Evan from playboy, to concerned, caring life-saver, to obsessed scientist, to desperate rejected lover, to self-sacrificing hero, perhaps they just didn't know what to do with him. One script had him even able to disarm Kyle based on "six years of military school." Figured he'd be toast again but at least the way he died wasn't as silly. I thought in Heart of Darkness, they should have had Kyle shoot him just as he was going for the button to release V. as Cat came in and shot Kyle. Then the three of the would be trapped in the room with the only thing keeping Muirfield out was V. in beast mode holding back the door.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 23:43:12 GMT -5
"Save her" "Always"
Probably my favourite lines of the episode <3
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 23:45:57 GMT -5
For me, the VinCat interaction was good, especially the scene where Cat finally draws Vincent back into the real world. In terms of VinCat-ness, it had the potential to be one of the all time epic greats, but for me, just fell a little short in certain areas: - The rooftop moment seemed like it was going to be a "big moment", but then Cat ruins it by slugging Vincent. Someone else told me that the scene would have been better if Cat simply ran away with mixed emotion. - The other big scene in the dream sequence was the moment Cat realized it was Vincent that saved her 10 years ago. But it was a bit too rushed, since they were in the middle of Muirfiled coming after them full guns a blazing. And I really wanted Cat to say again "you're him". If they had developed those two scenes a little better, it would have rivaled the old S1 VinCat for me. Just like how one can't help but compare 404 to S1's Date Night, it's hard not to compare this episode to S1's Heart of Darkness. HOD had that fantastic VinCat subway scene at the end. Where Vincent finds Cat and tells her that she walking up those steps was the happiest day in his life. While VinCat certainly had their moments in this one, it fell a little short of that level of greatness for me. Ironic how in this episode, that first warehouse meeting that Vincent talks about in 1x18's subway convo, never occurred in this dream sequence - changing everything. For me, another neat little connection to HOD. Still, this was a really great episode, they delivered far more than I expected. Albeit, my bar has been set low and I tried to stay quite spoiler free (like not watching the 405 preview at the end of 404) in order to enjoy this episode to its fullest. Ha, Cat punching V. was one of my favorite moments in the episode. I laughed out loud. Cat's lulling viewers in with the vulnerable feels and then pow. The show rarely manages to surprise so I thought that was fun. Like Bridesmaid Up, I knew Cat was going to be in a car accident, but I thought it was going to be Muirfield running her off the road but it ends up being Sabrina and then she doesn't just wreck her car, she calmly coldly gets out and shoots her too. I always thought Cat's line should have been, "You are real" rather than "You're him," which would reinforce the notion that Cat had spent the last 9 years thinking she was crazy True, that totally caught me off guard. Cat with her eyes all watery and bam! I LOLed a lot too. Really wasn't expecting that, just like when JT slammed V with the broom. But I think for those wanting the old VinCat "feels" of S1, it kind of ruined what could have been an epic moment.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 28, 2016 0:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Jun 28, 2016 13:42:34 GMT -5
There's really so much to talk about in this absolutely "wonderful" episode! I loved that there were many sly little nods to S1 and nice touches through out. Things like: - Cat (in the real world) is wearing the same outfit in bed that she was in Insatiable. V's got on the same tank top too. - The 1x22 "VinCat hands separating" each time Vincent went into his fugue state dream world, like he was losing Cat again each time... - The Beauty and the Beast title screen being in white instead of black. Which matched the overexposed lighting used in the dream world.- Rooftop VinCat and Fire Escape Vincent - When Evan says "Vincent Keller, looks pretty good for a dead guy". I only wish that Cat would have said "you're him", when she realized it was Vincent who saved her the night of her mother's murder. For me, Evan/Max was the real highlight of the show. I got very emotional watching him, it was the same feeling I had with Heart of Darkness, but even more so. The episode started out with a bang and didn't let up until the very end. So much so, that the ending VinCat scene at the hospital was a bit anti-climatic. That was the only part I thought they could have done better. Heart of Darkness ended with that very emotional subway scene. If they had ended with a touching scene like that, this episode for sure would be one of the all time greats. A few very minor gripes: What's up with the music this season? IMHO, the song choices haven't been as strong as in past seasons. That could have also made this episode even better. Also, does everybody have their own key to Il Cantuccio? They can waltz in at 3 am in the morning, coming and going as they please? And Cat just leaves the knocked out bad guy in her apartment? I think this was also a nod to the original film 'It's a Wonderful Life' as it takes place at Christmas time and everything is snowy. What can I say about this episode that has not already been said? Well, without summarising the whole episode, I'd say that the point of it all was to show Vincent, who has always had doubts and guilt that Cat's life would be better if she had never met him, what would ACTUALLY have happened if they'd never met. They do meet, in the woods, but Cat is still unaware if she was mistaken or not about the beast that saved her from her mother's killers. No-one believes her and she has never been able to get any answers that allow her to move on with her life. As she never met and fell in love with Vincent, she has married Evan, because he loves her, but there is still something missing from her life and she can't really commit to the relationship like she knows she should. This can't be her destiny, can it? Well, we know that she is unhappy because she was destined to meet Vincent and that did not happen when it should have. She is in limbo and in the dark. Vincent however, is aware of both worlds as the real Vincent has just woken up in the alternate reality after fuging out in the real world. He is suffering from blood loss and is feverish. The only indication at first that things are different in the alternate reality is the scar on his cheek. Other than that, he is aware of being married to and being in love with Cat. He and JT are no longer living in the shadows and in hiding in the real world. Muirfield is no longer a threat in the real world. But in this alternate reality, he is still hiding from Muirfield and Cat doesn't know who he is. His confusion in the bar is amusing but the scene where he is on the fire-escape, listening as Cat is talking to Evan about the problems in their marriage and her inability to move on is heartbraking. He knows why she hasn't moved on, what is missing from her life. It's him. There were paralelles with Season 1 obviously, Vincent must have spent many an hour on that fire-escape watching her, keeping her safe and wanting nothing more than to actually meet her, but also with Season 2 Episode 1, when Cat and Vincent meet and HE doesn't know HER. The tables are turned and it's Vincent's turn to try to convince Cat that he is not crazy and that they do know each other. His turn to fight for their love. Of course it's harder for him because he risks coming across as some strange stalker. But in true BATB style, it's only a matter of time before Cat realises that her and Vincent's lives ARE intertwined, as he saves her again and the last thing he hears before he returns to the real world is that she needs him. Then he hears Cat in the real world say the same thing before telling him she loves him and that's all he needs to hear to come back to her. It's funny as he comes to and he asks Cat if she knows him and asks JT if there's a scar on his face before he is satisfied that the whole thing was just a feverish dream. Their situation is still dier as the sniper is still out there, the bounty on Vincent still exists, but they are somehow happier and even stronger as a couple because Vincent no longer needs to worry about whether it was selfish of him to begin a relationship with Cat. He knows he has saved her and BEEN saved BY her. They are better together and you just can't argue with destiny.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 28, 2016 14:56:18 GMT -5
There's really so much to talk about in this absolutely "wonderful" episode! I loved that there were many sly little nods to S1 and nice touches through out. Things like: - Cat (in the real world) is wearing the same outfit in bed that she was in Insatiable. V's got on the same tank top too. - The 1x22 "VinCat hands separating" each time Vincent went into his fugue state dream world, like he was losing Cat again each time... - The Beauty and the Beast title screen being in white instead of black. Which matched the overexposed lighting used in the dream world.- Rooftop VinCat and Fire Escape Vincent - When Evan says "Vincent Keller, looks pretty good for a dead guy". I only wish that Cat would have said "you're him", when she realized it was Vincent who saved her the night of her mother's murder. For me, Evan/Max was the real highlight of the show. I got very emotional watching him, it was the same feeling I had with Heart of Darkness, but even more so. The episode started out with a bang and didn't let up until the very end. So much so, that the ending VinCat scene at the hospital was a bit anti-climatic. That was the only part I thought they could have done better. Heart of Darkness ended with that very emotional subway scene. If they had ended with a touching scene like that, this episode for sure would be one of the all time greats. A few very minor gripes: What's up with the music this season? IMHO, the song choices haven't been as strong as in past seasons. That could have also made this episode even better. Also, does everybody have their own key to Il Cantuccio? They can waltz in at 3 am in the morning, coming and going as they please? And Cat just leaves the knocked out bad guy in her apartment? I think this was also a nod to the original film 'It's a Wonderful Life' as it takes place at Christmas time and everything is snowy. What can I say about this episode that has not already been said? Well, without summarising the whole episode, I'd say that the point of it all was to show Vincent, who has always had doubts and guilt that Cat's life would be better if she had never met him, what would ACTUALLY have happened if they'd never met. They do meet, in the woods, but Cat is still unaware if she was mistaken or not about the beast that saved her from her mother's killers. No-one believes her and she has never been able to get any answers that allow her to move on with her life. As she never met and fell in love with Vincent, she has married Evan, because he loves her, but there is still something missing from her life and she can't really commit to the relationship like she knows she should. This can't be her destiny, can it? Well, we know that she is unhappy because she was destined to meet Vincent and that did not happen when it should have. She is in limbo and in the dark. Vincent however, is aware of both worlds as the real Vincent has just woken up in the alternate reality after fuging out in the real world. He is suffering from blood loss and is feverish. The only indication at first that things are different in the alternate reality is the scar on his cheek. Other than that, he is aware of being married to and being in love with Cat. He and JT are no longer living in the shadows and in hiding in the real world. Muirfield is no longer a threat in the real world. But in this alternate reality, he is still hiding from Muirfield and Cat doesn't know who he is. His confusion in the bar is amusing but the scene where he is on the fire-escape, listening as Cat is talking to Evan about the problems in their marriage and her inability to move on is heartbraking. He knows why she hasn't moved on, what is missing from her life. It's him. There were paralelles with Season 1 obviously, Vincent must have spent many an hour on that fire-escape watching her, keeping her safe and wanting nothing more than to actually meet her, but also with Season 2 Episode 1, when Cat and Vincent meet and HE doesn't know HER. The tables are turned and it's Vincent's turn to try to convince Cat that he is not crazy and that they do know each other. His turn to fight for their love. Of course it's harder for him because he risks coming across as some strange stalker. But in true BATB style, it's only a matter of time before Cat realises that her and Vincent's lives ARE intertwined, as he saves her again and the last thing he hears before he returns to the real world is that she needs him. Then he hears Cat in the real world say the same thing before telling him she loves him and that's all he needs to hear to come back to her. It's funny as he comes to and he asks Cat if she knows him and asks JT if there's a scar on his face before he is satisfied that the whole thing was just a feverish dream. Their situation is still dier as the sniper is still out there, the bounty on Vincent still exists, but they are somehow happier and even stronger as a couple because Vincent no longer needs to worry about whether it was selfish of him to begin a relationship with Cat. He knows he has saved her and BEEN saved BY her. They are better together and you just can't argue with destiny. Very nice summary! I've watched this episode 3 times already and it just gets better for me each time. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching it, but will hold off again until the CW's airing on Thursday. One thing that I realized (from my re-watch) is that the time line for the dream world might actually overlap all 4 seasons. JT at one point says it's been 10 years, then he says 12 years, and then Vincent says the time the Cop came looking (i.e. pilot ep) was 4 years ago. The timeline doesn't exactly match S1, nor exactly S4, but a jumbled mish mash of everything in between. Also, I don't know if it's just me, but doesn't that warehouse at the end look familiar? I don't think it's V's/JT's old S1 hideout, but there's something similar or familiar about the outside. The inside reminded me of the warehouse where Zou first had V in handcuffs in 201.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 28, 2016 15:25:32 GMT -5
I think this was also a nod to the original film 'It's a Wonderful Life' as it takes place at Christmas time and everything is snowy. What can I say about this episode that has not already been said? Well, without summarising the whole episode, I'd say that the point of it all was to show Vincent, who has always had doubts and guilt that Cat's life would be better if she had never met him, what would ACTUALLY have happened if they'd never met. They do meet, in the woods, but Cat is still unaware if she was mistaken or not about the beast that saved her from her mother's killers. No-one believes her and she has never been able to get any answers that allow her to move on with her life. As she never met and fell in love with Vincent, she has married Evan, because he loves her, but there is still something missing from her life and she can't really commit to the relationship like she knows she should. This can't be her destiny, can it? Well, we know that she is unhappy because she was destined to meet Vincent and that did not happen when it should have. She is in limbo and in the dark. Vincent however, is aware of both worlds as the real Vincent has just woken up in the alternate reality after fuging out in the real world. He is suffering from blood loss and is feverish. The only indication at first that things are different in the alternate reality is the scar on his cheek. Other than that, he is aware of being married to and being in love with Cat. He and JT are no longer living in the shadows and in hiding in the real world. Muirfield is no longer a threat in the real world. But in this alternate reality, he is still hiding from Muirfield and Cat doesn't know who he is. His confusion in the bar is amusing but the scene where he is on the fire-escape, listening as Cat is talking to Evan about the problems in their marriage and her inability to move on is heartbraking. He knows why she hasn't moved on, what is missing from her life. It's him. There were paralelles with Season 1 obviously, Vincent must have spent many an hour on that fire-escape watching her, keeping her safe and wanting nothing more than to actually meet her, but also with Season 2 Episode 1, when Cat and Vincent meet and HE doesn't know HER. The tables are turned and it's Vincent's turn to try to convince Cat that he is not crazy and that they do know each other. His turn to fight for their love. Of course it's harder for him because he risks coming across as some strange stalker. But in true BATB style, it's only a matter of time before Cat realises that her and Vincent's lives ARE intertwined, as he saves her again and the last thing he hears before he returns to the real world is that she needs him. Then he hears Cat in the real world say the same thing before telling him she loves him and that's all he needs to hear to come back to her. It's funny as he comes to and he asks Cat if she knows him and asks JT if there's a scar on his face before he is satisfied that the whole thing was just a feverish dream. Their situation is still dier as the sniper is still out there, the bounty on Vincent still exists, but they are somehow happier and even stronger as a couple because Vincent no longer needs to worry about whether it was selfish of him to begin a relationship with Cat. He knows he has saved her and BEEN saved BY her. They are better together and you just can't argue with destiny. Very nice summary! I've watched this episode 3 times already and it just gets better for me each time. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching it, but will hold off again until the CW's airing on Thursday. One thing that I realized (from my re-watch) is that the time line for the dream world might actually overlap all 4 seasons. JT at one point says it's been 10 years, then he says 12 years, and then Vincent says the time the Cop came looking (i.e. pilot ep) was 4 years ago. The timeline doesn't exactly match S1, nor exactly S4, but a jumbled mish mash of everything in between. Also, I don't know if it's just me, but doesn't that warehouse at the end look familiar? I don't think it's V's/JT's old S1 hideout, but there's something similar or familiar about the outside. <b>The inside reminded me of the warehouse where Zou first had V in handcuffs in 201.</b> I've only rewatched once, but the timeline did seem to be a little jumbled. I had the same thought about the interior of the warehouse. First time I saw it I thought of 201. It seems plausible it could be the same one.
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