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Post by corinne on Jan 14, 2015 10:16:59 GMT -5
Hi Arwenfan,
Oh no, I have to disagree here. Evan was not just sympathetic in that last scene. He made mistakes sure, he could be annoying sure, but most of the time he was cute, nice, honest (I said most of time!!), he was caring and doing what he did because he wanted the truth and what was good. I did like him. As for Joe, I'm sorry I haven't read that discussion you're referring to. I said I would when I joined the board, but there are so many sections, so many discussions with so many pages, it's overwhelming, I just gave up I think. What I can tell, is that, no matter who instigated their affair, he was the one married. Period. What I found excessive and antipathic was his attitude. He was too pushy, too confident in his authority. And that I can accept in a boss normally when it's counterbalanced by something nice or sexy, or touching, or something to make him vulnerable sometimes. And I never found any of that in him, or too rarely. He seemed cold, and rigid and unflexible. There was never any of his actions that really appealed to me. And his reaction when his brother died...excessive too. Ok I know his brother died, and was murdered, I know that, but excessive all the same...
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 16, 2015 12:50:13 GMT -5
I will be doing multiple posts on this episode. There are multiple things of interest in these early Season 1 episodes, in my opinion.
First, I DID see a reason behind showing the Cases of the Week in the beginning of BATB. Prior to Vincent entering her life, Cat's whole purpose in life is her CAREER and getting justice for victims. And that consumes her whole being. And in seeing Cat in her work environment, you see how dedicated she is. You see her sympathy for the victims as well as her skill at her job. AND the fact that she is obviously VERY intelligent and Vincent's intellectual equal.
The Cases of the Week also show Cat's co-workers. You wouldn't be able to get a feel for how close they all are without having seen the work environment. Yes, Joe seems a bossy, almost bullying boss. But the flip side to that is that he is obviously protective of his people. The next episode, especially, shows this aspect of Joe's character. You see how close these people are in the way that ALL of her regular co-workers, including her boss, come to her Surprise Party. They obviously respect Cat. She has EARNED her place in the precinct, no doubt.
And I will say, it is Cat's desire to get justice for victims that causes her to behave in the way that she does towards Vincent. Cat has seen that Vincent's whole LIFE has had to be in hiding, and rather obviously, it is NOT a happy life. Vincent is struggling for a cure almost completely by his lonesome, with only JT for company. And you see from the first few eppies that JT has become bitter despite himself. He is, of course, loyal to Vincent beyond everything else, but he and Vincent have both suffered in losing anyone and everything else that they loved in their lives. So Catherine SEES firsthand that Vincent has been victimized by Muirfield first in being made a Beast and then in having to hide. So Cat is rather consumed by finding a way for Vincent to come forward. To Cat, with her devotion to the police force and justice, she has not yet encountered the level of corruption that she will see in the government agencies and Muirfield. So in Cat's mind, it should be simple to get Vincent (and JT) in protective custody. So I don't see Cat as being unduly insensitive to Vincent--I just think she is unrealistic at first. By the end of this episode, Cat FINALLY gets it regarding JUST how far-reaching and menacing Muirfield can be. THAT is why she hunts down JT at the beginning of the next episode--she really HAS become that concerned for the safety and well-being of Vincent that she almost panics when she realizes that it has been a week, and she hasn't heard from Vincent.
And I LOVE that Vincent is able to call Cat out on her devotion to justice that sometimes DOES seem to come before the victim's wishes. And Cat acknowledges what she has become as a result of her mother's murder. She tells Vincent, "I swear I used to be normal." And she and Vincent are actually able to BOND over the fact that their lives have been changed due to the actions of others. Each sees the world differently due to the violence they have seen. And they can discuss it and understand one another. Vincent has probably not been able to really share this aspect of his life with JT. But he is able to discuss his past in the armed forces with Catherine. It helps him to remember the GOOD and wonderful aspects of his former dead soldier-colleagues and help someone else understand why their lives had such meaning to him (and others).
Cat is ready-made therapy for Vincent, just by being there for him. You really see that in this episode. It is WHY Vincent is so ready to forgive her--he gets that Catherine's sense of justice comes from the right place. And Catherine asks to start over and takes the picture back out of the envelope. She is willing to talk about what Vincent NEEDS to tell her about his fellow soldiers WITHOUT looking at it from a case-standpoint. She just wants to understand Vincent and learn about him, for herself. And to bond with him. And Vincent makes it clear that he wants to reciprocate that bond as well. And he is willing to find places to meet in order to make it happen. LOVE THIS!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 16, 2015 16:43:37 GMT -5
As you can probably guess, I can wax eloquent for lengthy periods of time on beloved Season 1 eppies.
My topic for this post: Fairy Tale Rule #1 --Love At First Sight
Okay, so it is my most fervent belief that from the time Cat and Vincent lock eyes in the first episode, it is Love At First Sight. This is just one of those basic concepts to Fairy Tale Rules. (And, very briefly, the "rules" in my opinion are 1) Beast and Beauty fall in love at first sight, DESPITE the appearance of the Beast, although they DON'T realize it yet, because there is that "pull" between the two. Beauty somehow understands on some basic level that the Beast and she share common troubles and traumas and ARE in fact soulmates. 2) Beauty and the Beast just understand each other and sympathize with one another's plight fairly early on, which leads to Rule Number 3. 3) Beauty and the Beast learn to trust one another, especially in their common fight. 4) Beauty's love transforms the Beast and brings him back to life so-to-speak, and Beauty as well is transformed through this powerful Love. 5) Their love is almost supernatural in nature--a bond beyond the ordinary, thus raising ordinary to extraordinary. 6) Part of that transformative power of the Love Connection between Beauty and the Beast causes isolated and angry Beast to re-engage in the world again and work to help others, thus proving to be the true soulmate of Beauty, who already helps others.)
So, back to the rules and how you see them in action in Season 1, especially as it relates to this episode. Cat and Vincent CLEARLY had "that moment" in the woods, right from the start. Cat just KNEW Vincent was there to save her and not hurt her. They both have a common cause and a common enemy. Which leads to the Trust Issues, where the two are tested and LEARN that they can rely and depend on one another. You have ALL of that in Episode 1 of Season 1. This second episode BUILDS on that Trust concept.
Vincent IMMEDIATELY seeks Cat out after she has dropped her Mother's paper off with JT. Yet look where Vincent chooses to make contact with Cat. How would Vincent just KNOW what building Cat was going to go into UNLESS he was already tracking and following her. Cat would have been called from the precinct to said crime scene, so Vincent has most likely been tailing Cat for MUCH longer (this is basically confirmed in Episode 3, when Vincent admits that after the "attack" which most likely was the subway one from the "Pilot," he had been regularly "tracking" Cat--which we even saw from Cat's father's engagement party). Vincent can't leave Catherine alone, even when he, himself, is asking for her to stay away.
Vincent goes to extremes to keep Catherine from returning to the warehouse, most likely because of JT's badgering. JT is clearly NOT comfortable with Cat on any level in this episode, although they seem to have a bonding moment at the coffee stand. Yet, when Vincent has FINALLY made his point and gotten Catherine to AGREE to stay away from him, Vincent feels compelled to leave the ROOF NOTE for Cat in order to re-establish contact away from JT's prying eyes. (In fact, Vincent doesn't even admit to JT that he has made plans to stay in contact with Catherine UNTIL after he gets caught, when Catherine tracks down JT in episode 3 after not hearing from Vincent for a week.) Vincent CAN'T let Cat walk away from his life--he tells her that he doesn't really have anyone but JT. And I LOVE Vincent's line "and that is JT." MEANING that JT is NOT a female (and someone that Vincent is interested in romantically--Vincent doesn't actually say this, but it sure is implied). Vincent wants and needs Cat in his life. And she has seen the worst in him, yet Cat has NOT run away. And that really speaks to Vincent. Cat sees the good man in him rather than the Beast, even though the Beast clearly DOES frighten Catherine some (Tess comments to Cat that she is trembling all over--so even though Cat did not back down from Vincent in her quarrel with him, she WAS frightened on some level.)
So Vincent FORGIVES Cat for her neverending quest for justice. He can't help but do so, because he admires Cat's commitment to justice. THAT is why Vincent ends up happily helping Cat in her cases. He WANTS to be relevant in her life. I LOVE how in the warehouse, Vincent asks Cat if she has a partner to discuss her cases with rather than him. But HOW QUICKLY is Cat able to bring Vincent into her world and get him looking FORWARD to working cases with her. So in episodes #2 and #3, Vincent is at first reluctant to get involved in police cases, but by the end of episode #3, he can't let the cases go anymore than Cat can. So Vincent's COMMITMENT TO JUSTICE is the SAME as Cat's--THIS is why he understands where Cat is coming from in this episode. And it is just one of the many things Vincent loves about Cat and WHY he can't stay away from her.
And may I just say--I LOVE THAT VINCENT LIES TO JT TO PROTECT CAT! Vincent IMMEDIATELY tells JT in the warehouse that Cat "is not there about her Mom." Vincent is LYING, as he JUST called Cat out on REALLY being there about her mom's case. Yet honestly, Cat is looking for an excuse to see Vincent in just the SAME way that Vincent is looking for an excuse to see Cat. BOTH VIncent and Cat MAKES EXCUSES FOR MAINTAINING CONTACT with one another in this episode. Yet it is sweetly Vincent that admits on the rooftop that he just doesn't WANT to be without Cat in his life, and he will find a way to make it work. (So Evan is NOT the only guy that lies for Cat in this episode. Men are just willing to do that for Cat in this episode because they KNOW that Cat's heart is in the right place. If Cat lies, it really IS for a good reason, usually because she is deceiving herself--a concept we really get to see and address in the Season 2 episode "Liar, Liar.")
And I DO love that JT just sees how Vincent loves Cat, right from the beginning. He can just SEE in Vincent's LOOKS and Body Language that Vincent is VERY interested in Cat and on a romantic level. JT would know Vincent better than ANYONE after having lived with him for 10 straight years. So JT's interest in keeping Cat away at first is really out of concern that Vincent would end up with a broken heart (or worse, end up with the Beast attacking Cat).
And Cat and Vincent bond over the fact that both have become isolated to a certain extent from everyone else based on the horrible traumas that have happened to them. BOTH see themselves as no longer being "normal." Each will assure the other of their humanity, right from the beginning. Vincent lets Cat know that he sees her as normal, which just leads Cat to joke about his beast senses being off. Which shows that Cat is relaxed enough about Vincent's "beast senses" to joke about it offhandedly. And Cat does NOT mind that Vincent can hear her heart racing. She rather likes that Vincent calls her out on her intentions. So this little bonding moment in the warehouse was sweet AND moving, especially when Vincent just SMILES like a little boy after Cat's comment about his hair! He just so clearly ENJOYS talking with Cat. He has gone from being tense to being relaxed in the matter of a few minutes. So Cat is like a healing balm to him. He just enjoys her company.
Yep, if you can't tell yet, I LOVE these little VinCat moments. Right from the beginning the love is there. And the two really just can't help but come back to one another. And they WORK to resolve their trust issues and clear the air between one another, because they really DON'T want to cease contact with one another. LOVE this!!! Beautiful. And so fairy-tale-like!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 17, 2015 16:11:08 GMT -5
Yet again, the whole Transformative Power of Love concept that you see in these early episodes just REALLY gets to my (and makes me want to discuss it endlessly and emphatically).
So topic for this post: Heather and How she actually HELPS VinCat grow Closer (without even knowing it)
Heather HAS a reason for being in this episode. Heather is able to show us how Cat USED to be prior to her mother's murder. Cat was NOT always so isolated, closed off, and inapproachable. Cat didn't used to push people away. How do we know this in this particular episode? From HEATHER. Yes, Heather.
Heather is the one to pick up the camp photo and tell how Cat saw how her sister was so homesick. So Cat took it upon herself to read to her sister every night. Cat saw a hurting person, her sister, and she made the situation better. Back then, Cat was warm and approachable.
Fast forward to "Proceed With Caution." Heather was still a CHILD when she lost her mother, who was murdered by being gunned down. And at the time Heather probably needed her the most, Cat was off in college and reeling from actually SEEING the loss. But remember, Heather appears as such a bubbly person that has TRIED so hard to put the negative and horrible incidents of the past behind her. So Cat is being INSENSITIVE to her sister, albeit without realizing it, by hammering her for whatever little details she remembers from THAT time. And that time of loss in Heather's life is EXACTLY what Heather needs most to forget. Remember, it was HEATHER that was SO HOMESICK for HOME while in camp.
So Cat just doesn't get that re-opening her mom's case and continuing to investigate it is something that just opens old wounds for Heather. REMEMBER, Heather knows NOTHING about Muirfield and would not even be able to fathom what her mother has done in the past for Muirfield and why they would be after her. So Heather is just BLINDSIDED by Cat's implications that the murder was somehow done for a reason. Heather was NOT in a place where she could even deal with knowledge like this.
So Cat is pushing Heather away in essence by just hammering her for knowledge and failing to see the damage she is creating in Heather, just as she later does to Vincent in this episode. YES, Cat's sense of justice comes from a good place--but she ends up re-victimizing Heather and Vincent (and JT) just a little bit in this episode. And Vincent calls her out on her actions.
This is WHY Cat's conversation with Vincent in the warehouse IS SO CRITICAL TO CAT'S CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Cat has become her own "Beast" with her own invisible exo-skeleton that prevents her from building close bonds with others. IN THAT WAY, Cat doesn't risk getting hurt again by losing someone she loves. JUST like Vincent. (So from that standpoint, Alex IS kind of necessary as Vincent HAS to remember what it used to be like to love someone BEFORE he was so damaged. And is also WHY Cat NEEDS the revelations from the shrink after she gets shot--Cat, too, has avoided falling in love and getting close to someone in order to avoid more pain. THAT IS WHY CAT LATER ADMITS THAT VINCENT IS THE FIRST GUY that she has actually envisioned a FUTURE with.) It takes the conversation with Vincent for Cat to begin to acknowledge that she has LOST something IN HERSELF by her quest for justice.
Yet despite her beginning Awakening, Cat STILL takes the photo. And violates poor Vincent's already unsteady lack of trust for the world. YET Vincent confronts Cat. And Cat comes to see EXACTLY what she has done to Vincent and how she has hurt him unwittingly. AND BECAUSE OF VINCENT, Cat then naturally makes the segueway as to HOW she has hurt her sister as well AND ALSO PUSHED HER SISTER AWAY, SAME as she has tried to do to Vincent. And Cat FINALLY realizes that she does NOT want to push either Vincent OR her sister away.
Thus, Vincent re-awakens Cat's empathy for others AND Cat's desire to CONNECT with others once again. So rather than watching her sister leave, Cat MAKES THE EFFORT to bond and admit that she was wrong to Heather. Like Catherine says, "she was YOUR mother, too." Cat realizes that Heather NEEDS the image of Vanessa Chandler that both girls THOUGHT they knew. And Cat realizes that Vincent NEEDS to REMEMBER his Soldier-Buddies as HUMANS and NOT as beast victims.
So Heather shows us the Cat that USED to be SO THAT WE CAN SEE just HOW VINCENT and his love, understanding and trust of Cat will ultimately TRANSFORM CAT just as Cat helps transform Vincent back into a sensitive and caring person that WANTS to risk his life to help others rather than just hiding in loss and pain and resentment. Again, gets back to the Fairy Tale Rules of the TRANSFORMATIVE POWER OF LOVE. Which is why I so LOVE LOVE LOVE this episode. Again, do you get that I really appreciate these early Season 1 episodes?
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 17, 2015 21:23:32 GMT -5
Hi Arwenfan, Oh no, I have to disagree here. Evan was not just sympathetic in that last scene. He made mistakes sure, he could be annoying sure, but most of the time he was cute, nice, honest (I said most of time!!), he was caring and doing what he did because he wanted the truth and what was good. I did like him. As for Joe, I'm sorry I haven't read that discussion you're referring to. I said I would when I joined the board, but there are so many sections, so many discussions with so many pages, it's overwhelming, I just gave up I think. What I can tell, is that, no matter who instigated their affair, he was the one married. Period. What I found excessive and antipathic was his attitude. He was too pushy, too confident in his authority. And that I can accept in a boss normally when it's counterbalanced by something nice or sexy, or touching, or something to make him vulnerable sometimes. And I never found any of that in him, or too rarely. He seemed cold, and rigid and unflexible. There was never any of his actions that really appealed to me. And his reaction when his brother died...excessive too. Ok I know his brother died, and was murdered, I know that, but excessive all the same... He made mistakes sure, he could be annoying sure, but most of the time he was cute, nice, honest (I said most of time!!), he was caring and doing what he did because he wanted the truth and what was good. YMMV Cute? Matter of taste and opinion. Nice? Whatever. Honest? If you say so. Evan went off the rails went it came to wanting the truth and not only did I find that unattractive, I found him borderline nuts. What I can tell, is that, no matter who instigated their affair, he was the one married. Period.So...it's okay that Evan made mistakes, but Joe is not allowed to? Marriages go south all the time and when they do they generally end like Joe's did. He was too pushy, too confident in his authority. Not an usual trait. See Gabriel Lowan. And that I can accept in a boss normally when it's counterbalanced by something nice or sexy, or touching, or something to make him vulnerable sometimes. Fair enough; however, I saw vulnerability in Joe on several occasions. He did not wear it on his sleeve.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 17, 2015 21:33:08 GMT -5
I will be doing multiple posts on this episode. There are multiple things of interest in these early Season 1 episodes, in my opinion. First, I DID see a reason behind showing the Cases of the Week in the beginning of BATB. Prior to Vincent entering her life, Cat's whole purpose in life is her CAREER and getting justice for victims. And that consumes her whole being. And in seeing Cat in her work environment, you see how dedicated she is. You see her sympathy for the victims as well as her skill at her job. AND the fact that she is obviously VERY intelligent and Vincent's intellectual equal. The Cases of the Week also show Cat's co-workers. You wouldn't be able to get a feel for how close they all are without having seen the work environment. Yes, Joe seems a bossy, almost bullying boss. But the flip side to that is that he is obviously protective of his people. The next episode, especially, shows this aspect of Joe's character. You see how close these people are in the way that ALL of her regular co-workers, including her boss, come to her Surprise Party. They obviously respect Cat. She has EARNED her place in the precinct, no doubt. And I will say, it is Cat's desire to get justice for victims that causes her to behave in the way that she does towards Vincent. Cat has seen that Vincent's whole LIFE has had to be in hiding, and rather obviously, it is NOT a happy life. Vincent is struggling for a cure almost completely by his lonesome, with only JT for company. And you see from the first few eppies that JT has become bitter despite himself. He is, of course, loyal to Vincent beyond everything else, but he and Vincent have both suffered in losing anyone and everything else that they loved in their lives. So Catherine SEES firsthand that Vincent has been victimized by Muirfield first in being made a Beast and then in having to hide. So Cat is rather consumed by finding a way for Vincent to come forward. To Cat, with her devotion to the police force and justice, she has not yet encountered the level of corruption that she will see in the government agencies and Muirfield. So in Cat's mind, it should be simple to get Vincent (and JT) in protective custody. So I don't see Cat as being unduly insensitive to Vincent--I just think she is unrealistic at first. By the end of this episode, Cat FINALLY gets it regarding JUST how far-reaching and menacing Muirfield can be. THAT is why she hunts down JT at the beginning of the next episode--she really HAS become that concerned for the safety and well-being of Vincent that she almost panics when she realizes that it has been a week, and she hasn't heard from Vincent. And I LOVE that Vincent is able to call Cat out on her devotion to justice that sometimes DOES seem to come before the victim's wishes. And Cat acknowledges what she has become as a result of her mother's murder. She tells Vincent, "I swear I used to be normal." And she and Vincent are actually able to BOND over the fact that their lives have been changed due to the actions of others. Each sees the world differently due to the violence they have seen. And they can discuss it and understand one another. Vincent has probably not been able to really share this aspect of his life with JT. But he is able to discuss his past in the armed forces with Catherine. It helps him to remember the GOOD and wonderful aspects of his former dead soldier-colleagues and help someone else understand why their lives had such meaning to him (and others). Cat is ready-made therapy for Vincent, just by being there for him. You really see that in this episode. It is WHY Vincent is so ready to forgive her--he gets that Catherine's sense of justice comes from the right place. And Catherine asks to start over and takes the picture back out of the envelope. She is willing to talk about what Vincent NEEDS to tell her about his fellow soldiers WITHOUT looking at it from a case-standpoint. She just wants to understand Vincent and learn about him, for herself. And to bond with him. And Vincent makes it clear that he wants to reciprocate that bond as well. And he is willing to find places to meet in order to make it happen. LOVE THIS! I like most of what you said here with a few exceptions. First, only the last 10 years of Vincent's life had been in hiding. Prior to enlisting in the army, his life was as free and open as anyone else's and because the majority of his life was not in hiding, his experiences informed the person that he was...capable, intelligent, caring and thoughtful. I mostly agree with the middle of your post; however, I disagree that Catherine was not insensitive to Vincent's situation. She was and has been thoughtless and insensitive on numerous occasions over the course of the two seasons. She gets so caught up in what she wants that she ignores the feelings of others. And most of her initial interactions with Vincent were focused on her mother's murder. Regarding Joe, I did not see Joe as a bullying boss, I saw him as a demanding boss who expected as much out of his team as he expected out of himself.
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Post by corinne on Jan 18, 2015 4:56:11 GMT -5
Arwenfan, Yes I found Evan cute and nice, really.
When he did his best to help Cat in first épisodes, even when he had doubts, he protected her When he washed his exam table in music When he tried to be charming or when he kissed her in the photo booth. You know I didn't want him to kiss her, especially not when Vincent was looking, but it was cute that he dared to do it when he had not received any encouraging sign from Catherine. That is "cute" for me
Anyway it's better that not everyone of us has the same opinion, that would be boring ;-)
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 18, 2015 12:54:19 GMT -5
" corinne" True story that except I would have said lacking fire and spice. LOL
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Post by jefferen on Jan 18, 2015 13:20:34 GMT -5
I will be doing multiple posts on this episode. There are multiple things of interest in these early Season 1 episodes, in my opinion. First, I DID see a reason behind showing the Cases of the Week in the beginning of BATB. Prior to Vincent entering her life, Cat's whole purpose in life is her CAREER and getting justice for victims. And that consumes her whole being. And in seeing Cat in her work environment, you see how dedicated she is. You see her sympathy for the victims as well as her skill at her job. AND the fact that she is obviously VERY intelligent and Vincent's intellectual equal. The Cases of the Week also show Cat's co-workers. You wouldn't be able to get a feel for how close they all are without having seen the work environment. Yes, Joe seems a bossy, almost bullying boss. But the flip side to that is that he is obviously protective of his people. The next episode, especially, shows this aspect of Joe's character. You see how close these people are in the way that ALL of her regular co-workers, including her boss, come to her Surprise Party. They obviously respect Cat. She has EARNED her place in the precinct, no doubt. And I will say, it is Cat's desire to get justice for victims that causes her to behave in the way that she does towards Vincent. Cat has seen that Vincent's whole LIFE has had to be in hiding, and rather obviously, it is NOT a happy life. Vincent is struggling for a cure almost completely by his lonesome, with only JT for company. And you see from the first few eppies that JT has become bitter despite himself. He is, of course, loyal to Vincent beyond everything else, but he and Vincent have both suffered in losing anyone and everything else that they loved in their lives. So Catherine SEES firsthand that Vincent has been victimized by Muirfield first in being made a Beast and then in having to hide. So Cat is rather consumed by finding a way for Vincent to come forward. To Cat, with her devotion to the police force and justice, she has not yet encountered the level of corruption that she will see in the government agencies and Muirfield. So in Cat's mind, it should be simple to get Vincent (and JT) in protective custody. So I don't see Cat as being unduly insensitive to Vincent--I just think she is unrealistic at first. By the end of this episode, Cat FINALLY gets it regarding JUST how far-reaching and menacing Muirfield can be. THAT is why she hunts down JT at the beginning of the next episode--she really HAS become that concerned for the safety and well-being of Vincent that she almost panics when she realizes that it has been a week, and she hasn't heard from Vincent. And I LOVE that Vincent is able to call Cat out on her devotion to justice that sometimes DOES seem to come before the victim's wishes. And Cat acknowledges what she has become as a result of her mother's murder. She tells Vincent, "I swear I used to be normal." And she and Vincent are actually able to BOND over the fact that their lives have been changed due to the actions of others. Each sees the world differently due to the violence they have seen. And they can discuss it and understand one another. Vincent has probably not been able to really share this aspect of his life with JT. But he is able to discuss his past in the armed forces with Catherine. It helps him to remember the GOOD and wonderful aspects of his former dead soldier-colleagues and help someone else understand why their lives had such meaning to him (and others). Cat is ready-made therapy for Vincent, just by being there for him. You really see that in this episode. It is WHY Vincent is so ready to forgive her--he gets that Catherine's sense of justice comes from the right place. And Catherine asks to start over and takes the picture back out of the envelope. She is willing to talk about what Vincent NEEDS to tell her about his fellow soldiers WITHOUT looking at it from a case-standpoint. She just wants to understand Vincent and learn about him, for herself. And to bond with him. And Vincent makes it clear that he wants to reciprocate that bond as well. And he is willing to find places to meet in order to make it happen. LOVE THIS! I like most of what you said here with a few exceptions. First, only the last 10 years of Vincent's life had been in hiding. Prior to enlisting in the army, his life was as free and open as anyone else's and because the majority of his life was not in hiding, his experiences informed the person that he was...capable, intelligent, caring and thoughtful. I mostly agree with the middle of your post; however, I disagree that Catherine was not insensitive to Vincent's situation. She was and has been thoughtless and insensitive on numerous occasions over the course of the two seasons. She gets so caught up in what she wants that she ignores the feelings of others. And most of her initial interactions with Vincent were focused on her mother's murder. Regarding Joe, I did not see Joe as a bullying boss, I saw him as a demanding boss who expected as much out of his team as he expected out of himself. I agree, Catherine was very insensitive & pushy towards Vincent & JT's situation especially in the first few episodes. Most of the time Cat is right in these types of situations to push, but other times shes not. A lot of the time Cat is so focused on getting the truth or fixing her life, or trying to move forward that she forgets that other people are involved and that her way might not always be the best way. 90% of the time, the way Cat handles things is spot on & how they should be handled, but every once in awhile she gets a bit selfish, pushy & judgmental. The beginning of S2 showed this side of Cat as well. Cat was very pushy w/ Vincent, & was trying way too hard & expecting way too much where V's memories were concerned. I wouldve liked to seen more empathy & sympathy on her part & not get so easily frustrated, even though she sort of had every right too. I know she had been through a lot, but imo, it was nearly as tragic as what V went through.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 18, 2015 15:34:38 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply that Catherine wasn't insensitive in this episode, because we can all see that she IS, to some degree. I guess what I MEANT to say is that Catherine wasn't being deliberately insensitive in her quest for justice. She has REASONS to think her behavior is appropriate, from her point of view. As others have pointed out, Catherine has to realize what she is doing from someone ELSE's point of view. Catherine has become so isolated and career and case-driven that she CAN'T see anything else or anyone else's point of view but her own PRIOR to her contact with Vincent. We are MEANT to see Catherine in this light so that we can appreciate JUST how much Vincent's presence in her life WILL shape her and cause her to become a BETTER person and the best version of herself that she can be.
Again, in my opinion, it comes down to the Transformative Power of Love aspect that I was previously discussing. That is at the HEART of the Fairy Tale--how the contact and love between the couple transforms them BOTH into people as lovely on the inside as on the outside. VINCENT is the one to make Catherine realize that she is being insensitive and acting wrongly to BOTH Heather AND Vincent. As a result of her contact with Vincent, Catherine is ALREADY becoming a better person AND the person she was prior to her own isolating past trauma. VINCENT is the one that makes Catherine see that she actually WANTS to connect with someone BEYOND a case.
Oh, and Arwenfan, I do recognize that Vincent certainly was an intelligent and caring individual prior to his involvement with Muirfield. I mean, he clearly became a doctor for a reason and that was to help people. And he became a soldier to protect others from the evil that had led to the death of his brothers in the towers. The point of Beauty and the Beast IS to represent the Fairy Tale on some level, so you have the isolated and angry "beast" that doesn't want to really interact with the world prior to Beauty re-awakening him to his former self. THUS, the Muirfield experiments and having to hide have morphed Vincent's character into something of a beast, in some aspects. I mean, it wouldn't be Beauty and the Beast otherwise, from the Fairy Tale standpoint.
Vincent's isolation and despair have caused him to turn inward and bitter. As Vincent tells Catherine in the next episode, he helps out if he deliberately stumbles upon it, but he doesn't go "looking" for trouble. BUT Vincent is rather quick to come back around once Catherine helps bring him back into the world. Vincent REMEMBERS what it was like to want to ACTIVELY do good on a daily basis, and he literally "comes alive" and enjoys helping Catherine get justice for others. You really see this in "All In," "Basic Instinct," and "Worth."
Thus, Catherine and Vincent help each other to become better people. THAT is the whole point--that they are better Together than they are apart. So their love and faith in one another to ultimately do the right thing TRANFORMS them both into becoming more sensitive and empathic first to one another and then to the world. It helps Heal them both and lead them to make a good and positive impact on the world. (And let's face it, Catherine's WORST character traits ALWAYS were shown when her heart and head were not functioning as one in her life--when she is with Gabe, she is insensitive and downright clueless and selfish and pompous like Gabe. In "Catch Me If You Can," Catherine is thinking that she is waxing eloquent about justice in the car with Vincent when Vincent quietly points out that Xavier deserves justice as well. Catherine had just "failed" to remember the victim. So yes, the WHOLE POINT is that Catherine and Vincent bring out the BEST is one another and remind each other of WHY they took up the fight in the first place. It is the most beautiful aspect of the Fairy Tale--how LOVE brings out the best in you.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 18, 2015 17:41:46 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply that Catherine wasn't insensitive in this episode, because we can all see that she IS, to some degree. I guess what I MEANT to say is that Catherine wasn't being deliberately insensitive in her quest for justice. She has REASONS to think her behavior is appropriate, from her point of view. As others have pointed out, Catherine has to realize what she is doing from someone ELSE's point of view. Catherine has become so isolated and career and case-driven that she CAN'T see anything else or anyone else's point of view but her own PRIOR to her contact with Vincent. We are MEANT to see Catherine in this light so that we can appreciate JUST how much Vincent's presence in her life WILL shape her and cause her to become a BETTER person and the best version of herself that she can be. I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree with your fairy tale analogy, but Vincat are still operating in a 21st century world and sometimes Cat's behavior and reactions just don't hold up. Season 2 is over and we're waiting for Season 3, but I still feel that Catherine's insensitivity and thoughtlessness are traits that remain a part of her make up. Her default position is to badger, push and pry, regardless of the circumstances or what that does to the people in her life. I sometimes think that Catherine thinks no one can handle a situation or come up with a solution better than she can, which is in itself pretty arrogant. And when she finally does have a melt down she can't admit that anyone (herself included) is capable of beastly behavior because (apparently) only a beast can be a beast, not a regular person. When Catherine doesn't listen to her heart, she apparently doesn't listen to her brain either--as illustrated during her relationship with Gabe. She doesn't express anything whether it's feelings or even a genuine opinion; she's Barbie. And lastly, when it finally became painfully clear that she was mistaken about Gabe and his motives, she couldn't bring herself to admit it. The one thing I really didn't like about the conclusion of season 2 is how Catherine never admitted that Gabe was controlling, egotistical, insane and a beast through and through. She thought he "tried." Some would call her charitable or say that Catherine has a good heart, but after everything Gabe had done and did , I expected a stronger reaction. Instead, we got "he tried to be a good person, he just couldn't." I thought la chica está loco.
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Post by jefferen on Jan 18, 2015 18:07:30 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply that Catherine wasn't insensitive in this episode, because we can all see that she IS, to some degree. I guess what I MEANT to say is that Catherine wasn't being deliberately insensitive in her quest for justice. She has REASONS to think her behavior is appropriate, from her point of view. As others have pointed out, Catherine has to realize what she is doing from someone ELSE's point of view. Catherine has become so isolated and career and case-driven that she CAN'T see anything else or anyone else's point of view but her own PRIOR to her contact with Vincent. We are MEANT to see Catherine in this light so that we can appreciate JUST how much Vincent's presence in her life WILL shape her and cause her to become a BETTER person and the best version of herself that she can be. I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree with your fairy tale analogy, but Vincat are still operating in a 21st century world and sometimes Cat's behavior and reactions just don't hold up. Season 2 is over and we're waiting for Season 3, but I still feel that Catherine's insensitivity and thoughtlessness are traits that remain a part of her make up. Her default position is to badger, push and pry, regardless of the circumstances or what that does to the people in her life. I sometimes think that Catherine thinks no one can handle a situation or come up with a solution better than she can, which is in itself pretty arrogant. And when she finally does have a melt down she can't admit that anyone (herself included) is capable of beastly behavior because (apparently) only a beast can be a beast, not a regular person. When Catherine doesn't listen to her heart, she apparently doesn't listen to her brain either--as illustrated during her relationship with Gabe. She doesn't express anything whether it's feelings or even a genuine opinion; she's Barbie. And lastly, when it finally became painfully clear that she was mistaken about Gabe and his motives, she couldn't bring herself to admit it. The one thing I really didn't like about the conclusion of season 2 is how Catherine never admitted that Gabe was controlling, egotistical, insane and a beast through and through. She thought he "tried." Some would call her charitable or say that Catherine has a good heart, but after everything Gabe had done and did , I expected a stronger reaction. Instead, we got "he tried to be a good person, he just couldn't." I thought la chica está loco.Oh my thats pin point on how I have seen Catherine at times. I agree! lol. I've just never been able to correctly describe it. She even more or less says this in 2x08 to Vincent about her dad when she gives Vincent an ultimatum regarding killing her father. "He's still human" even though deep down he's more of a beast than V could even have been. And same thing goes for Gabe even before he turned back into a beast
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jan 19, 2015 16:03:29 GMT -5
Arwenfan and Jefferen,
I get your point and even agree, to a certain extent about Catherine. But PLEASE read the following and consider it as a whole.
I will say that Catherine's faults are, in part, what make her the perfect mate for Vincent. He certainly has those same exact traits, particularly in regards to being judgmental and having a temper and only wanting things his way. Vincent thinks ONLY his plans will work (think "Ancestors," "Playing With Fire," "Held Hostage," "Recipe For Disaster," any of the episodes within the Alex arc), and when they fail, they fail spectacularly, usually with death in their wake. And Vincent thinks he can also always control the situation (again, "Held Hostage," "Recipe For Disaster") which also usually goes terribly wrong. And you don't hear Vincent having to take a portion of the episode to apologize for his actions anymore than Catherine does. YET THEY BOTH DO. Vincent points out to Catherine in 215 that he has made mistakes, and Catherine corrects him by saying that they BOTH have. So BOTH Catherine and Vincent recognize these character flaws in themselves and one another and seek to counteract what is worst in themselves by balancing it out with the other person.
And Arwenfan, you are also forgetting that Catherine DOES own her bad acts in Season 1 AND in Season 2. She tells Vincent that she "beasted out," and she also states, "you are NOT the only one with a temper." So Catherine, like Vincent, recognize their faults and typically own their actions later. In "Liar, Liar," Catherine again acknowledges her wrong actions and regrets hurting Vincent in her phone conversation with Tess and later with Vincent himself ALTHOUGH SHE ALSO correctly places blame with Vincent for his part. And she realizes that neither of them can continue to move forward at the rate they are going. And remember that Catherine also acknowledges in "Playing With Fire" that if she and Vincent could have just worked together rather than insisting on going with each one's individual plans, they would have ended up with Muirfield's files.
"Playing With Fire" and "Liar, Liar" really are stellar episodes for showing the stubbornness in both Vincent and Catherine and also how BOTH come to see their actions as having led to the disasters that followed. And isn't that what we are supposed to see--that Vincent and Catherine bring out the BEST in one another, in part, because they can recognize, acknowledge to one another, and deal with the fallout of their actions TOGETHER to build a better future for one another. And JT yells at Catherine (and Vincent) for screwing up their plan in trying to convert Tess to their side, and Vincent even further risks himself in staying for Catherine's sake in order to go along with her plan to convince Tess. YET CATHERINE IS ultimately right. Had Catherine NOT been so insistent or not continued to follow her plan and TRUST in the better instincts of those she knows, then the ultimate right conclusion would never have happened.
And seriously, would the series be nearly as enjoyable if Catherine and Vincent were perfect? That would be rather boring. What makes the love so strong between them is that each can see the other's faults and issues as well as their own, and EACH of them seek to better themselves and love the other person, despite their individual spectacular errors in judgment. Because let's face it, even Season 1 Vincent has a lot of issues. He is consumed by bitterness and originally doesn't want to help. YET IT TAKES CATHERINE's BADGERING to remind Vincent of who he used to be AND WHO HE WILL STRIVE TO BE. So without that particular Character Trait of Catherine's, Vincent really wouldn't become the hero that he does become by the end of Season 1. AND VICE VERSA.
To me, that is the whole point of the series: Catherine and Vincent take what is negative in one another and somehow together make it positive. Vincent is reckless in protecting JT by revealing himself to Catherine and by his actions of continually going out and disobeying HIS OWN RULES that he himself created to keep him and JT alive, as Vincent states in the first episode. YET VINCENT's CHARACTER GROWTH would not happen without his mistakes and character flaws. Because at heart, Vincent (and Catherine) are good people that strive to do the right thing.
And seriously, if either Vincent or Catherine were wishy-washy in their actions and plans, would they be the strong and stubborn people that they are? Being relentless is not necessarily a bad thing. In a quest for justice, in fact, it is rather a necessary character trait.
Also, Catherine's negative character traits naturally seque into what makes her lovable as well. I love that she is assertive and doesn't back down when she believes she is in the right. It certainly takes strength of character to hold onto your own beliefs and seek to make a difference in the world by sticking to your sense of justice. Yes, it leads her down the wrong path at times. Yet she still tries. Vincent points out in "Ever After" that this trait of Catherine's is one of the things that made him fall in love with her. So even though that same character trait has certainly caused him trouble, he loves her because he realizes that Catherine is still a decent person, like himself, that certainly tries to live according to her ethics and beliefs and attempts for justice.
And maybe because Catherine DOES have those faults mentioned may be WHY she is so forgiving, even when she shouldn't be. Catherine was so quickly willing to forgive and forget with Gabe because she saw he was trying. So her ability to forgive is something of character for her, in my opinion. GRANTED, my own thoughts on forgiveness are heavily influenced by coming from a faith that believes that God sent his own Son to die for the sins of others, thus allowing for anyone to seek forgiveness. I mean, forgiveness when you are undeserving is at the heart of what I was taught. And the idea behind that forgiveness is that you DON'T hold on to the negative acts done by others if they truly repent, seek forgiveness, and try to better the world for others. In other words, you try to believe that people really CAN CHANGE and be better. And THAT is one of the most positive and life-affirming messages that I choose to take from BATB--another reason WHY I love this show so much!
So Catherine being so willing to forgive, even extending it to those that are CLEARLY undeserving, is something that seems to speak positively for her rather than negative. BUT I GET THE OPPOSING VIEW--however, I would point out that if you argue that Gabe and Bob and others in the series should NEVER qualify for forgiveness, no matter how sorry they are or how much they might try to do to make themselves and the world better, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO NOT FORGIVE Vincent for his acts in early Season 2. Because Vincent does choose to do some pretty terrible things. But Vincent certainly comes to regret his actions and spends the rest of the season atoning for those sins. Which spoke to me of Vincent's strength of character, willingness to forgive, and genuine strides towards redemption. Which helps bring Catherine back from the wrong path she had taken. (Again, whole point of the series for me and what makes me LOVE these characters so much!)
I guess what you can take from the above is that the Character Flaws of both of the main characters in BATB make them human for me and make me want to follow their journey. And Vincent and Catherine love each other NOT just because they look good on the outside--they value and love one another for all that each individually strives for (even when they sometimes take a wrong path or action that appears selfish). Both Catherine and Vincent make spectacular comebacks from rather dark and bad places, which often times weren't entirely of their own making. They each bolster one another up and forgive one another for spectacular mistakes, because they truly love one another and strive to better themselves and one another. And what is NOT to love about that?
I certainly don't think EITHER ONE of their mistakes or character flaws makes them any less strong individuals, when taken as a whole. They certainly are worthy of love and understand one another all that much better BECAUSE of all the ways they fail inasmuch as the ways they have succeeded and been right.
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Post by jefferen on Jan 19, 2015 16:23:20 GMT -5
Arwenfan and Jefferen, I get your point and even agree, to a certain extent about Catherine. But PLEASE read the following and consider it as a whole. I will say that Catherine's faults are, in part, what make her the perfect mate for Vincent. He certainly has those same exact traits, particularly in regards to being judgmental and having a temper and only wanting things his way. Vincent thinks ONLY his plans will work (think "Ancestors," "Playing With Fire," "Held Hostage," "Recipe For Disaster," any of the episodes within the Alex arc), and when they fail, they fail spectacularly, usually with death in their wake. And Vincent thinks he can also always control the situation (again, "Held Hostage," "Recipe For Disaster") which also usually goes terribly wrong. And you don't hear Vincent having to take a portion of the episode to apologize for his actions anymore than Catherine does. YET THEY BOTH DO. Vincent points out to Catherine in 215 that he has made mistakes, and Catherine corrects him by saying that they BOTH have. So BOTH Catherine and Vincent recognize these character flaws in themselves and one another and seek to counteract what is worst in themselves by balancing it out with the other person. And Arwenfan, you are also forgetting that Catherine DOES own her bad acts in Season 1 AND in Season 2. She tells Vincent that she "beasted out," and she also states, "you are NOT the only one with a temper." So Catherine, like Vincent, recognize their faults and typically own their actions later. In "Liar, Liar," Catherine again acknowledges her wrong actions and regrets hurting Vincent in her phone conversation with Tess and later with Vincent himself ALTHOUGH SHE ALSO correctly places blame with Vincent for his part. And she realizes that neither of them can continue to move forward at the rate they are going. And remember that Catherine also acknowledges in "Playing With Fire" that if she and Vincent could have just worked together rather than insisting on going with each one's individual plans, they would have ended up with Muirfield's files. "Playing With Fire" and "Liar, Liar" really are stellar episodes for showing the stubbornness in both Vincent and Catherine and also how BOTH come to see their actions as having led to the disasters that followed. And isn't that what we are supposed to see--that Vincent and Catherine bring out the BEST in one another, in part, because they can recognize, acknowledge to one another, and deal with the fallout of their actions TOGETHER to build a better future for one another. And JT yells at Catherine (and Vincent) for screwing up their plan in trying to convert Tess to their side, and Vincent even further risks himself in staying for Catherine's sake in order to go along with her plan to convince Tess. YET CATHERINE IS ultimately right. Had Catherine NOT been so insistent or not continued to follow her plan and TRUST in the better instincts of those she knows, then the ultimate right conclusion would never have happened. And seriously, would the series be nearly as enjoyable if Catherine and Vincent were perfect? That would be rather boring. What makes the love so strong between them is that each can see the other's faults and issues as well as their own, and EACH of them seek to better themselves and love the other person, despite their individual spectacular errors in judgment. Because let's face it, even Season 1 Vincent has a lot of issues. He is consumed by bitterness and originally doesn't want to help. YET IT TAKES CATHERINE's BADGERING to remind Vincent of who he used to be AND WHO HE WILL STRIVE TO BE. So without that particular Character Trait of Catherine's, Vincent really wouldn't become the hero that he does become by the end of Season 1. AND VICE VERSA. To me, that is the whole point of the series: Catherine and Vincent take what is negative in one another and somehow together make it positive. Vincent is reckless in protecting JT by revealing himself to Catherine and by his actions of continually going out and disobeying HIS OWN RULES that he himself created to keep him and JT alive, as Vincent states in the first episode. YET VINCENT's CHARACTER GROWTH would not happen without his mistakes and character flaws. Because at heart, Vincent (and Catherine) are good people that strive to do the right thing. And seriously, if either Vincent or Catherine were wishy-washy in their actions and plans, would they be the strong and stubborn people that they are? Being relentless is not necessarily a bad thing. In a quest for justice, in fact, it is rather a necessary character trait. Also, Catherine's negative character traits naturally seque into what makes her lovable as well. I love that she is assertive and doesn't back down when she believes she is in the right. It certainly takes strength of character to hold onto your own beliefs and seek to make a difference in the world by sticking to your sense of justice. Yes, it leads her down the wrong path at times. Yet she still tries. Vincent points out in "Ever After" that this trait of Catherine's is one of the things that made him fall in love with her. So even though that same character trait has certainly caused him trouble, he loves her because he realizes that Catherine is still a decent person, like himself, that certainly tries to live according to her ethics and beliefs and attempts for justice. And maybe because Catherine DOES have those faults mentioned may be WHY she is so forgiving, even when she shouldn't be. Catherine was so quickly willing to forgive and forget with Gabe because she saw he was trying. So her ability to forgive is something of character for her, in my opinion. GRANTED, my own thoughts on forgiveness are heavily influenced by coming from a faith that believes that God sent his own Son to die for the sins of others, thus allowing for anyone to seek forgiveness. I mean, forgiveness when you are undeserving is at the heart of what I was taught. And the idea behind that forgiveness is that you DON'T hold on to the negative acts done by others if they truly repent, seek forgiveness, and try to better the world for others. In other words, you try to believe that people really CAN CHANGE and be better. And THAT is one of the most positive and life-affirming messages that I choose to take from BATB--another reason WHY I love this show so much! So Catherine being so willing to forgive, even extending it to those that are CLEARLY undeserving, is something that seems to speak positively for her rather than negative. BUT I GET THE OPPOSING VIEW--however, I would point out that if you argue that Gabe and Bob and others in the series should NEVER qualify for forgiveness, no matter how sorry they are or how much they might try to do to make themselves and the world better, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO NOT FORGIVE Vincent for his acts in early Season 2. Because Vincent does choose to do some pretty terrible things. But Vincent certainly comes to regret his actions and spends the rest of the season atoning for those sins. Which spoke to me of Vincent's strength of character, willingness to forgive, and genuine strides towards redemption. Which helps bring Catherine back from the wrong path she had taken. (Again, whole point of the series for me and what makes me LOVE these characters so much!) I guess what you can take from the above is that the Character Flaws of both of the main characters in BATB make them human for me and make me want to follow their journey. And Vincent and Catherine love each other NOT just because they look good on the outside--they value and love one another for all that each individually strives for (even when they sometimes take a wrong path or action that appears selfish). Both Catherine and Vincent make spectacular comebacks from rather dark and bad places, which often times weren't entirely of their own making. They each bolster one another up and forgive one another for spectacular mistakes, because they truly love one another and strive to better themselves and one another. And what is NOT to love about that? I certainly don't think EITHER ONE of their mistakes or character flaws makes them any less strong individuals, when taken as a whole. They certainly are worthy of love and understand one another all that much better BECAUSE of all the ways they fail inasmuch as the ways they have succeeded and been right. I agree with you on how you see them too. Yes, both Catherine & Vincent have flaws and that is expected because we all are imperfect human beings, and though I dont like some of their flaws I do accept them and even to some extent appreciate them. Their flaws are not anything that I hate on or make a priority or the thing that decides if I will watch this show or not. What I appreciate the most about them, is that when things dont go a certain way because they didnt work together or didnt take the other's opinion into consideration that they dont judge each other and instead are there for one another trying to figure out together what the best thing to do is. And like you said before its been proven time & time again that things get done & go a lot smoother when the two of them work together. Their motto together "we are better together than we are apart" really is the truth and describes VinCat perfectly.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jan 20, 2015 0:46:07 GMT -5
Alwayscrazedbatbfan,
I have never denied that Catherine and Vincent weren’t ideal for each other or claimed either one was perfect; I love them, they are my favorite couple. But that doesn’t mean that Catherine doesn’t do things that annoy me more. I’ve already stated a few of the reasons above. (Actually, I have a whole big list but it’s late and I’ve got to keep this short.) I really detested the whole Catherine/Gabriel pairing—it damaged Catherine severely IMO--so Catherine’s lukewarm condemnation of Gabe and the damage he inflicted doesn’t sit well with me, and probably never will. Where Vincent’s sins have been enumerated ad nauseam, the murders Gabe committed (both as beast and non-beast) have been summed up as nothing more than “questionable acts,” and practically swept under the rug. Are you kidding me, writers? IMO, Vincent is the hero of this story, not Bob or Gabe. I couldn’t care less about either of them and have no forgiveness to waste on them, especially since neither one ended season 2 on a spectacular note of redemption.
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