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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:20:42 GMT -5
Annoys me to no end that Gabe is judging Vincent and what he did. Gabe has no business judging him. |
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:21:37 GMT -5
That really does sum it up: it is just CREEPY that Cat goes for the guy that TOTALLY lost it as a beast AND couldn't control it while rejecting Vincent for having done the same AND Vincent going for Tori, who is young and clearly has NOTHING in common with Vincent AND he killed her father! Again, this is, in part, why I pointed out the age difference. It is like Vincent becomes Tori's new father-figure at first and is the only thing she has to cling to. Again, Tori expects Vincent to protect her AND he is so much older than her AND twisted and without much morality at that time (like her father) and wanting to Kill his Enemies, above all else. SO CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY for both of them! I mean, if you are going to have third parties, at least don't be so ICKY and Freudian like this!
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:22:45 GMT -5
The VinCat boat house scene afterwards just breaks my heart. Especially when V says he saw the look on Cats face, she was scared of him  |
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:26:05 GMT -5
Well, thanks for watching with me Jefferen! I hate that the others didn't join us. I kept checking the other thread, and people were clearly continuously checking back to see if it was unlocked. I guess it will get unlocked later, and they can add this thread to it! Was wonderful to have company through this episode as SO MUCH about it creeps me out (while there were still the really sweet beginning scenes that made it clear that Vincent and Cat SEEMED to be coming back together).
Oh well, I'll be back once we get to the 211 "Held Hostage" recap. (CAN'T do the other Tori/Vincent--him getting shot and basically losing his humanity episodes. Just can't.) At least by 211, Cat and Vincent WANT to get back to each other, even though there are still obstacles (Gabe being one). I can find redemptive factors from 211 forward. Not for 207 through 210.
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:26:37 GMT -5
That really does sum it up: it is just CREEPY that Cat goes for the guy that TOTALLY lost it as a beast AND couldn't control it while rejecting Vincent for having done the same AND Vincent going for Tori, who is young and clearly has NOTHING in common with Vincent AND he killed her father! Again, this is, in part, why I pointed out the age difference. It is like Vincent becomes Tori's new father-figure at first and is the only thing she has to cling to. Again, Tori expects Vincent to protect her AND he is so much older than her AND twisted and without much morality at that time (like her father) and wanting to Kill his Enemies, above all else. SO CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY for both of them! I mean, if you are going to have third parties, at least don't be so ICKY and Freudian like this! I think that's how Tori sort of saw V as, a father figure, someone to look up to, but once she realized their connection & the power she had over him, like a spoiled brat who wants everything she wants that power and she knows she can have it w/ Vincent. In the beginning Tori didn't realize how much power she actually had and was okay w/ friendship/mentor type thing, but once she figured it was more she wanted more and didn't want anyone to get in her way |
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:30:13 GMT -5
Like her father wanted to dominate and control her, Tori wanted to dominate and control Vincent. She was definitely manipulative like her father. Again, I think she wanted someone, ANYONE to cling to. And taking Vincent from Catherine made her feel powerful. I mean, Tori hated Catherine, in part, because Catherine still had her father, even though he tried to kill them. And since she couldn't kill Reynolds, punishing Cat was the next best thing. And like her father, it was a power trip.
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:33:42 GMT -5
Well, thanks for watching with me Jefferen! I hate that the others didn't join us. I kept checking the other thread, and people were clearly continuously checking back to see if it was unlocked. I guess it will get unlocked later, and they can add this thread to it! Was wonderful to have company through this episode as SO MUCH about it creeps me out (while there were still the really sweet beginning scenes that made it clear that Vincent and Cat SEEMED to be coming back together). Oh well, I'll be back once we get to the 211 "Held Hostage" recap. (CAN'T do the other Tori/Vincent--him getting shot and basically losing his humanity episodes. Just can't.) At least by 211, Cat and Vincent WANT to get back to each other, even though there are still obstacles (Gabe being one). I can find redemptive factors from 211 forward. Not for 207 through 210. Awww Im gonna miss you the next few weeks! 207-210 are not easy episodes on my VinCat heart, but I love the emotions and heart tugging that those episodes bring is just goosebumps IMO. They are really heartbreaking and even though I don't like the situation between VinCat in these episode 208-209 were really well written. And one of my favorite things about those episodes is that VinCat pull that is going on in those episode. The sexual tension between them in 209-211 is so thick that some of their tiffs I really was just waiting for the passion to ovdertake them. That pull was just smacking us in the face and that one of the reasons I am able to watch those episodes is bc of the ever present obvious pull between VinCat |
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:36:04 GMT -5
They never really cover this, but I have always wondered if Tori was abused by her father, in more ways than the physical abuse she endures when Curt strangles her. It would help explain why the father-like relationship with Vincent goes in the way that it does. Obviously, due to the "ick" factor, the writers/showrunners seem to have left that kind of dangling out there, in my opinion. I mean, Curt was WAY over-possessive of Tori and wouldn't let her out with ANYONE. Plus, the mother had tried to "warn" Tori about Curt before she died. Makes you think that the mother realized Tori was in personal danger, more than just the physical or emotional abuse. The total isolation of Tori could be why she would cling to anyone, and Vincent is the only one like her AND just like her father. Like I said, the ICK Factor to the whole Tori/Vincent thing is bad enough just with the fact that Vincent killed Curt Windsor in the manner that he does in front of Tori. Tori DID care about her father, and he was the only thing that she had, YET Tori so readily agrees with Vincent's plans. Even though Vincent DID kidnap her (although he argues he is saving her). Everything about this relationship is just so twisted. And never was really unraveled or explained to the viewers. Although I can see why we would NOT want to know. |
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:37:37 GMT -5
Like her father wanted to dominate and control her, Tori wanted to dominate and control Vincent. She was definitely manipulative like her father. Again, I think she wanted someone, ANYONE to cling to. And taking Vincent from Catherine made her feel powerful. I mean, Tori hated Catherine, in part, because Catherine still had her father, even though he tried to kill them. And since she couldn't kill Reynolds, punishing Cat was the next best thing. And like her father, it was a power trip. Exactly! And V IMO was just too hurt by everything that happened w/ Cat and him to really fight his connection w/ Tori or really take the time to figure out what that connection was or meant. He was just trying anything to get Cat out of his head and heart. Even with sex. I always felt like if he and Tori did do anything all V really saw was Cat. Even though it might have been Toris body it was Cat who he was making love to or that his heart wanted and that it was just empty, revengeful and spiteful because he was hurt |
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 21:41:05 GMT -5
They never really cover this, but I have always wondered if Tori was abused by her father, in more ways than the physical abuse she endures when Curt strangles her. It would help explain why the father-like relationship with Vincent goes in the way that it does. Obviously, due to the "ick" factor, the writers/showrunners seem to have left that kind of dangling out there, in my opinion. I mean, Curt was WAY over-possessive of Tori and wouldn't let her out with ANYONE. Plus, the mother had tried to "warn" Tori about Curt before she died. Makes you think that the mother realized Tori was in personal danger, more than just the physical or emotional abuse. The total isolation of Tori could be why she would cling to anyone, and Vincent is the only one like her AND just like her father. Like I said, the ICK Factor to the whole Tori/Vincent thing is bad enough just with the fact that Vincent killed Curt Windsor in the manner that he does in front of Tori. Tori DID care about her father, and he was the only thing that she had, YET Tori so readily agrees with Vincent's plans. Even though Vincent DID kidnap her (although he argues he is saving her). Everything about this relationship is just so twisted. And never was really unraveled or explained to the viewers. Although I can see why we would NOT want to know. I agree. I think if they explained it, or elaborated on it more viewers might have been more understanding and the whole Tori arc might have played out different and might have not left such a bad taste in viewers mouths |
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:46:47 GMT -5
I guess my problems with 207 forward is that Tori is so easily able to manipulate Vincent, even with Catherine providing plausible, moral reasons for at least TRYING it her way. And Reynolds was the only one with certain pieces to the puzzle AND knowledge of the enemies of Vincent/people behind Muirfield. So keeping Reynolds alive but in jail would make sense, at least to protect Catherine, if for nothing else. But Vincent can't see reason or ANYTHING but revenge with just a few words from Tori.
And I always saw the Gabe relationship as happening due to Cat reacting badly to Tori and believing Vincent WAS really over her. And Cat wanted Normal after everything that had happened, and Gabe was all about building a beast-free existence AND of putting bad guys away that hurt good people. Seemed about saving lives and all the things Cat was about. Cat was just trying to go pain-free, at least to me, and get over the trauma and have normal. So the Gabe thing made sense to me, from the standpoint of him SEEMING to be like Vincent originally was. And episode 213 really brings home that Cat knew that she lacked passion with Gabe. So Cat tries to go along with what Gabe wants (again, Gabe manipulating Cat in the same way and manner that Tori manipulates Vincent--hate hate hate this, all the way around. Both Vincent and Cat have to make the SAME mistakes.). But Cat always seems to be trying to find her way back to Vincent, even when with Gabe (with the exception of part of 215--but I always saw that as Vincent-denial on her part). BUT with Vincent and Tori, Vincent doesn't seem to try to break the hold or get away from Tori UNTIL 212. Vincent is including Tori in his plans (and she is oh so willing to be bait, to be part of Vincent's plan. HOW creepy in that?), so maybe that is why I just can't tolerate the Tori/Vincent episodes.
At least in this episode, Tori acknowledges that Cat is with Vincent AND she seems in desperate need of a mother-like figure/friend like Cat who DOES understand her situation. However, by next episode, all that has changed. Tori FIRST tries to cling to Gabe AND gets him to take her home with him for Thanksgiving! Wonder how that could have gone if Reynolds hadn't been involved?
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Aug 25, 2014 21:54:59 GMT -5
At least by 212, I think that Vincent was having sex with Tori just because he just figured that he was stuck with his choice of a separate, different path from Cat. He tells Catherine this on the phone that he has taken a different path from her, for better or worse, and that Cat will be free to live a separate path after the gem case is solved. And Tori's conversation thereafter CONFIRMS that Vincent is sneaking out of bed EACH NIGHT to call Cat. The very fact that Vincent is SNEAKING OUT OF BED makes me think that he is thinking of Cat during each encounter and is just waiting to go and call her as soon as he thinks Tori will be knocked out. And AGAIN, if the sex with Tori was so satisfying, Vincent would be out cold. He certainly always is post-sex with Cat. And Vincent can't even have anything BUT an awkward conversation with Tori. This is clear in both the phone call to Tori AND the scenes with Tori in 212. She is trying to manipulate him still AND do a pity-me story to Vincent, but he is having none of it after he and Cat came to their understanding in the precinct in 211. Vincent DEFLECTS when Tori says she fears that Vincent just wants back with Cat. Vincent KNOWS that Tori will know he is lying, SO HE CAN'T DENY that he wants Cat back, HE HAS TO DEFLECT that he wants to get the gem back. But then he again goes into how Agent Landon is around and worrying that this will get CAT into trouble. So everything is back to being about Cat. And Tori calls Vincent out on this outside of JT's place. And Vincent breaks up with her, wanting to "get his head straight." Again, Vincent trying to find a way to tell the truth to another being that can be a lie detector like himself.
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Post by jefferen on Aug 25, 2014 22:48:14 GMT -5
Pretty much 100% agree with you. And I understand why it is so hard for people to watch those episodes. The writers def got the point across on how much power Tori has over V. I do kinda wish they explained that more Bc it was obvious to that the power she had over V she also had over her father. But I did love to see how as soon as V resolved his anger, resentment & most of his hurt over Cat that he was pretty much just able to shove Tori's power of him aside and push forward with what he wanted to do. As much as I didn't like the arc I understand why they pursued it (all though it would've been better executed if it was with different people) if Tori didn't come in the picture or just continued to look at V as a mentor so many things could've turned out different for everyone. Even VinCat issues that were already sort of bubbling towards the surface would've eventually have worked themselves out
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Aug 26, 2014 0:40:02 GMT -5
All right. First mini-rant I have regarding Tori. HOW OLD exactly IS Vincent in the series? Vincent's brother William (oldest) was born in 1971 per his tombstone. Daniel was born in 1973, per his tombstone. It takes 7 YEARS to complete med school here and 4 years of college prior to that. That would make Vincent around 29 years old in 2001. Making Vincent NOW about 42 years old. That age is kind-of supported by Episode 211 when Vincent tells Tess that the 30's are better than the 20's, at least for some people. For Vincent, he would have been in hiding for his 30's. At any rate, if Vincent is about 42 years old, then he is REALLY robbing the cradle with Tori, who should be about 20 FREAKING YEARS younger than him. i think the writers have written Vincent as somebody in his mid thirties even though it does not make sense timeline wise |
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Aug 26, 2014 0:47:10 GMT -5
my main issue with this episode is that IMO it was snot well written - it was dull. blunt and indifferent... and yes, Tori was also introduced but that was not my main issue when i was watching. i have watched most episodes many times but not this one
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