2x03 Liar, Liar (REWATCH)

[anapi -season3baby :)]

Aug 4, 2014 21:00:00 GMT -5 @locaxbatb said:

I so agree; the Gabe/Catherine relationship was such a let down....it is painful to relive it!

loca i am cutting the gaberine eps now for the editing project and all these scenes are out...my way of dealing with the stupid trinagle

[anapi -season3baby :)]

ok so even though i did not watch this episode yesterday i remember it very well plus i did watch it quite recently.
a few thoughts. I really liked this episode but it was quite hard to watch first time round. i remember watching it first time at 2am UK time on a sunday when it aired on showcase and I just felt so sad with all the lies and the deceipt. I can understand both POVs - Cat's and Vincent's, but in this episode it was so clear how little they trusted each other and that broke my heart. beautiful episode regardless. the end scene was sad but necessary I thought and then episode 4 reaffirmed that regardless of what cat says she can never stay away, the love is too deep. the case of the week was somewhat weak (as usual) but at least it did not take up a lot of screen time plus it offered the opportunity for some great scenes including the flash back scenes. great episode overall and very sad

[mus1c]

Sorry for the delay, but I only managed to watch the episode today. 


Catherine trying to cover up her injured neck, then Heather says "People are gonna think you have an abusive boyfriend". OUCH that hurt my VinCat shipper heart very much.

"I'm offering to use our relationship to our advantage". Catherine doesn't give up on Vincent, regardless of what happened the last night. But she also wants to make the city a safer place for everyone.

"It's not my story to tell". Loving Gabe's discretion. Unpopular opinion alert: Up to that point I liked the guy. Then of course he turned out to be a giant douche, but I'll keep that for later.

Tess teaching Cat how to cheat on the polygraph test: LOL

Cat managed to download the file before Vincent came in. That was so close!!!

"It's killing me". GOOD. You deserve it Vincent. On a side note, I think Vincent was as terrified/suprised as Cat were when he lost control and hurt her. It doesn't make it okay, far from it, but it's already a step toward redemption

"Thank you, for giving me another shot". I'd say I feel sorry that he's being played BUT after what he did to Catherine...Well deserved.

"You're not on the list". Liar liar, pants on fire.

"You're not gonna lose me too". I love their relationship so much. Too bad Catherine can't be honest with her at this point.

Catherine lecturing Heather about the fact that she didn't tell her about the daddy issue earlier doesn't sit well with me, considering Cat hasn't told anything about Vincent yet.

Vincent is putting two and two together and realizing that the security breach was actually Catherine.

Catherine's teary eyes as soon as Vincent told her that he had a memory...So touching and heartbreaking, all the more that she soon realizes he's lying. She really wanted to believe he had regained some memories.

"I lied because I care about you. You lied for a case". This was so sad. Vincent deserved to know that he didn't fool her with his fake memory, she's smart like that.

On a shallow note: their chemistry is sizziling, even when they're mad at each other.

Vincent had memories, for real this time, as he was saving Catherine. Their relationship started by Vincent saving her, and this new phase of their relationship starts under similar circumstances. This is the first step to a rebuilding of VinCat 2.0. SOME HAPPY STUFF FINALLY.

"I'm a hypocrite. I made you feel bad for not being honest." That's one of the many things that I love about Catherine. She's not perfect, but at the end of the day, she can realize the mistakes she's done and make amend for them. That's something I really like in a character.

"You have a crush on her" And so the triangle begins... But to be honest, Catherine is such a remarkable woman, it'd be difficult not to fall for her.

"I do Catherine, I remember you" "That relationship you're remembering, we never lied to each other". "I can't handle this, it's too hard" So many powerful lines here. My heart broke all over again. For the first time in this episode, both Cat and Vincent were honest to each other, and the truth wasn't pretty, but it's an important step toward VinCat 2.0
And then Catherine closing the window on Vincent, and metaphorically closing it on their relationship...SO SAD I CANNOT.
I'll be in the corner, sobbing.

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

All right. After reading Rickey's article on the character of Catherine Chandler, I found myself actually disagreeing with the author for probably the first time ever. Part of the trouble is because you really have to listen for every single LINE that comes out of a character's mouth each episode AND go back and review past episodes in order to get every nuance of each character's actions in order to figure it all out. As a result, I have been re-watching certain episodes from Season 2 to more closely and minutely dissect Catherine's thoughts and actions. And basically, I found something else in LIAR LIAR that supports my theory of her character in Season 2 that I felt the need to mention here. 

The scene:  Catherine speaking to Tess on the phone after Vincent has run off from her place, having realized that Catherine was lying to him about her reasons for coming to the boathouse. Tess had earlier pointed out to Catherine that she was doing this elaborate plan to get on the boathouse and get into Vincent's computer in order to get her boyfriend back. Catherine had argued that she was doing it to "protect the public" in that some organization might be wiping out multiple Beasts' memories and sending them home to be questioned by wives and girlfriends and family members that might also be hurt as she has been hurt.

At any rate, when Catherine is on the phone with Tess, she ADMITS that she WAS actually doing the investigation in order to get her boyfriend back. She really DID want to find out who the organization was in order to cut Vincent's ties to it so that she could show him proof and get him back. Catherine tells Tess THAT SHE DIDN'T REALIZE the truth herself about her real motivation in her own actions (getting her boyfriend back) because so much has happened to her that Tess knows her better than she knows herself at this time. Catherine is questioning everything, INCLUDING her judgment. And Catherine admits SHE NO LONGER KNOWS HERSELF because of all that has happened to her and all the pain she has been through.

We come back to this same theme (the fact that Catherine is second-guessing her decisions and motivation for her decisions) in "Held Hostage" (episode 211) and especially in "Recipe for Disaster" (episode 212) and then again in 215 and 216. Catherine is NEVER able to truly sever her ties with Vincent. When she finally sees that HER Vincent is still inside of him, she can't let go. She tells herself that the quest to help Vincent find the gem is to learn HER past when the reality is ACTUALLY SUMMED up by Tori herself who tells Vincent in 212 that Catherine is not trying to help "us," meaning the Beasts Tori and Vincent BUT is actually doing everything for VINCENT. When Vincent tells Catherine on the phone at the beginning of 212 that once they get the gem mess cleared up, he has chosen a different path from her and she will finally be able to move on in her life, the camera switches to Catherine who actually WINCES at Vincent's words. She tells Vincent it is HER path as well, but the truth is that Catherine is clearly enjoying having common ground with Vincent again. They are talking daily and working together as they always did in the past. Catherine is clearly unable and unwilling to let go. She tells Tess that she will NOT rush into a relationship with Gabe and NEEDS the time on her own. Catherine, unknown to herself, wants Vincent back AND is holding out hope to find her way back to him. It is only after she sees Vincent's apparent grief (actually guilt, quite frankly) over Tori's death that she believes Vincent has truly moved on and is over her. Vincent then tells Catherine in the cell that someone will always be after him and that was the real reason he pushed her away (and will continue to do so becomes the implied rest of the speech). Vincent then walks away, and Gabe comes into the room and asks Catherine if she wants to be alone. Catherine, still ringing from what she has heard and seen from Vincent, tells Gabe that she is ready to be with him. Catherine wants to move forward, stop the pain, and get over Vincent since he seems to have gotten over her OR won't be with her due to never being able to have a normal life. So Catherine's choice to move on to Gabe DOES make since, especially at that moment, particularly given that Gabe seemed to have made the complete transition from bad Beast to good guy willing to risk his own life to save others and make amends to Catherine for his previous actions. Gabe has become the "new Vincent," while Vincent's slow transformation still might go either way at that point. (Of course, we know that by the very next episode, Vincent will come to the realization that he wants Catherine back.)

Thus, "Liar Liar" really starts the ongoing theme for the season of Catherine SAYING one thing about her rationalization for her actions while actually doing something else. And Catherine can't quite admit that her motivations are all about building a life together with Vincent since she has no control over Vincent's actions. Catherine realizes what "beasts" and Muirfield and the lies of her parents have caused her. She can't really deal with losing Vincent anymore than Vincent can really deal with losing Catherine, although neither is willing or able to admit that. Choosing "others" relieves the pressures of the relationship and the anger caused by the trust issues and Agent Reynolds. Catherine tells Tess AND Gabe (in episode 211) that they know her better than she knows herself concerning her "unresolved issues" because she has begun to doubt everything, PARTICULARLY her life choices, such as being with Vincent in the first place. She comes to realize that Vincent was "different then" in Season 1 from the way he had become after his memories were taken from him. Even though Vincent seems like himself by 215, Catherine still has doubts that he could change back again which is why she is reluctant to go back to Vincent in 216 until Vincent's speech to Sam reveals that Vincent really HAS changed for the better. And nothing and no one can compete with her love for the kind-hearted Vincent willing to sacrifice himself and lay his soul bare to others for the sake of trying to keep someone (Sam) from suicide. And Catherine finally knows herself and Vincent as well.

So "Liar Liar" reveals some real character insight into Catherine and her motivations and failure to understand her own motivations due to all the pain and trauma that she has been through. I will now be watching for more of this theme in upcoming episodes. Viva la Re-watch!!

[jefferen]

Aug 11, 2014 19:45:50 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

All right. After reading Rickey's article on the character of Catherine Chandler, I found myself actually disagreeing with the author for probably the first time ever. Part of the trouble is because you really have to listen for every single LINE that comes out of a character's mouth each episode AND go back and review past episodes in order to get every nuance of each character's actions in order to figure it all out. As a result, I have been re-watching certain episodes from Season 2 to more closely and minutely dissect Catherine's thoughts and actions. And basically, I found something else in LIAR LIAR that supports my theory of her character in Season 2 that I felt the need to mention here. 

The scene:  Catherine speaking to Tess on the phone after Vincent has run off from her place, having realized that Catherine was lying to him about her reasons for coming to the boathouse. Tess had earlier pointed out to Catherine that she was doing this elaborate plan to get on the boathouse and get into Vincent's computer in order to get her boyfriend back. Catherine had argued that she was doing it to "protect the public" in that some organization might be wiping out multiple Beasts' memories and sending them home to be questioned by wives and girlfriends and family members that might also be hurt as she has been hurt.

At any rate, when Catherine is on the phone with Tess, she ADMITS that she WAS actually doing the investigation in order to get her boyfriend back. She really DID want to find out who the organization was in order to cut Vincent's ties to it so that she could show him proof and get him back. Catherine tells Tess THAT SHE DIDN'T REALIZE the truth herself about her real motivation in her own actions (getting her boyfriend back) because so much has happened to her that Tess knows her better than she knows herself at this time. Catherine is questioning everything, INCLUDING her judgment. And Catherine admits SHE NO LONGER KNOWS HERSELF because of all that has happened to her and all the pain she has been through.

We come back to this same theme (the fact that Catherine is second-guessing her decisions and motivation for her decisions) in "Held Hostage" (episode 211) and especially in "Recipe for Disaster" (episode 212) and then again in 215 and 216. Catherine is NEVER able to truly sever her ties with Vincent. When she finally sees that HER Vincent is still inside of him, she can't let go. She tells herself that the quest to help Vincent find the gem is to learn HER past when the reality is ACTUALLY SUMMED up by Tori herself who tells Vincent in 212 that Catherine is not trying to help "us," meaning the Beasts Tori and Vincent BUT is actually doing everything for VINCENT. When Vincent tells Catherine on the phone at the beginning of 212 that once they get the gem mess cleared up, he has chosen a different path from her and she will finally be able to move on in her life, the camera switches to Catherine who actually WINCES at Vincent's words. She tells Vincent it is HER path as well, but the truth is that Catherine is clearly enjoying having common ground with Vincent again. They are talking daily and working together as they always did in the past. Catherine is clearly unable and unwilling to let go. She tells Tess that she will NOT rush into a relationship with Gabe and NEEDS the time on her own. Catherine, unknown to herself, wants Vincent back AND is holding out hope to find her way back to him. It is only after she sees Vincent's apparent grief (actually guilt, quite frankly) over Tori's death that she believes Vincent has truly moved on and is over her. Vincent then tells Catherine in the cell that someone will always be after him and that was the real reason he pushed her away (and will continue to do so becomes the implied rest of the speech). Vincent then walks away, and Gabe comes into the room and asks Catherine if she wants to be alone. Catherine, still ringing from what she has heard and seen from Vincent, tells Gabe that she is ready to be with him. Catherine wants to move forward, stop the pain, and get over Vincent since he seems to have gotten over her OR won't be with her due to never being able to have a normal life. So Catherine's choice to move on to Gabe DOES make since, especially at that moment, particularly given that Gabe seemed to have made the complete transition from bad Beast to good guy willing to risk his own life to save others and make amends to Catherine for his previous actions. Gabe has become the "new Vincent," while Vincent's slow transformation still might go either way at that point. (Of course, we know that by the very next episode, Vincent will come to the realization that he wants Catherine back.)

Thus, "Liar Liar" really starts the ongoing theme for the season of Catherine SAYING one thing about her rationalization for her actions while actually doing something else. And Catherine can't quite admit that her motivations are all about building a life together with Vincent since she has no control over Vincent's actions. Catherine realizes what "beasts" and Muirfield and the lies of her parents have caused her. She can't really deal with losing Vincent anymore than Vincent can really deal with losing Catherine, although neither is willing or able to admit that. Choosing "others" relieves the pressures of the relationship and the anger caused by the trust issues and Agent Reynolds. Catherine tells Tess AND Gabe (in episode 211) that they know her better than she knows herself concerning her "unresolved issues" because she has begun to doubt everything, PARTICULARLY her life choices, such as being with Vincent in the first place. She comes to realize that Vincent was "different then" in Season 1 from the way he had become after his memories were taken from him. Even though Vincent seems like himself by 215, Catherine still has doubts that he could change back again which is why she is reluctant to go back to Vincent in 216 until Vincent's speech to Sam reveals that Vincent really HAS changed for the better. And nothing and no one can compete with her love for the kind-hearted Vincent willing to sacrifice himself and lay his soul bare to others for the sake of trying to keep someone (Sam) from suicide. And Catherine finally knows herself and Vincent as well.

So "Liar Liar" reveals some real character insight into Catherine and her motivations and failure to understand her own motivations due to all the pain and trauma that she has been through. I will now be watching for more of this theme in upcoming episodes. Viva la Re-watch!!

Another great post! Love your analysis' as always And I agree with everything you said. It's always been obvious that Cat cant let go of V. Even if that's what shes saying she wants and needs to do.  Her actions never match up w/ her words. And even after everything that happened w/ V and Reynolds and VinCat breaking up, Cat still on numerous occasions chose to continue to protect Vincent. It was obvious to us all that Cat still had some kind of hold on V and wasn't gonna let him up so easy. I strongly felt that if something happened to either one of them big or small each of them would have moved heaven and earth to save the other one regardless of what VinCat status was.  That pull between them is so strong that even when the where miles apart their hearts were still together. There was no denying that as a viewer. And even though Cat especially pushed against it and said she moved on from V it is obviously clear that she hadn't. I think that's what really is at the root of my issues w/ the way Cat was written this Season, is that the writers made it completely apparent to us that deep down Cat still wanted and would always want V and there was that undeniable pull that you could only ignore for so long, that how Cat could "ignore it" is baffling. And I say "ignore" as also meaning Cat not truly dealing with her feelings for Vincent. And Cat not taking the time for herself to figure out exactly what she was feeling and instead just jumped right into it w/ Gabe. Everything felt forced because IMO realistically a pull that strong can only be denied for so long and it was obvious that Cat was ignoring that pull and her feelings for Gabe would never compare to what she feels for V and even though she never said those words its how it came across on screen.