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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Mar 1, 2014 13:28:40 GMT -5
The more time that goes by, the more convinced I am that Gabe's "choir boy" transformation is just proof positive that Vincent can similarly change. The fact that they have been hitting us over the head with the Gabe likes Catherine anvil since the beginning of the season just goes to show how little imagination anyone has about forming a real bond between them. The best chemistry should be seen and not heard of over and over and over and over again... But I digress. If Gabe is to be a baddie, again, I feel certain that will be forged of the the "losing Catherine" arc. Excuse me while I go take another nap. I can't find any originality in there anywhere, no thanks to the creative team. Are we supposed to feel sorry for Gabe? Really? I mean come on already, we didn't buy the Gabe/Catherine love triangle thing to begin with. Please. Someone in that writers room must be smoking weed if they think we buy into this crap. Sorry, but it's true. Maybe we are to see a repeating cycle of beasts and former beasts losing themselves to their bad side every time the beauty dumps them... *yawn* i was hoping for a different storyline, one where gabe was scheming from the start rather than after he was dumped, that is what i was referring to We were ALL hoping for a different storyline, but the more time that passes, the less likely the possibility seems... That's just my two cents worth, but I'm all out of faith as they say... They don't seem to be pulling many rabbits of hats these days, and many things feel VERY predictable. I just don't see surprise Gabe as a baddie coming lately, and we have been able to predict almost every other twist and turn weeks and months ahead of time... Which makes me think it ain't happening...
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vickyd
Army Recruit
BatB Summer
Posts: 87
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Post by vickyd on Mar 1, 2014 17:25:36 GMT -5
i was hoping for a different storyline, one where gabe was scheming from the start rather than after he was dumped, that is what i was referring to Me, too. Counting on the old saying "If it looks too good to be true, it IS too good to be true". Pretty boy in a nutshell. Yes, my point exactly! The "do we even like you?" quote from ep.1 and "maybe donate your body to science" gradually became the pretty-hair-boy who wanted to help Catherine and Vincent but as soon as they break up, he jumps in. WTF? And now "Vincent is not a man, he's a beast?". Please, make him a season-arc villain with his own agenda. That would be jaw dropping as a cliffhanger of season 2. Or daddy Reynolds would playing a huge part in it. I think they didn't want to cast any new actors and resorted to Gabe for the new love interest. Where has the cooking instructor plot gone? I feel that they have edited out SO much that leaves me clueless as to the reasons why. I hope by the end of the season I will have figured out who Vincent, Catherine, JT, Tess and Gabe are. Separately!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Mar 1, 2014 18:03:09 GMT -5
Okay, I'm weighing in here with my two cents worth. I figured I would wait a day from the sneak peak clips being released for the fandom to calm down. Please don't hate the opinion/speculation/justification I am fixing to present. Just take it in and think on it. Above all else, please know I am a staunch VinCat believer all the way. I appreciate this forum because it allows us to speculate and express our individual theories on the characters, plots, and episodes. I love knowing that in my heart, we all want what is best for Vincent and Catherine which is for them to be together. We just disagree on the journey there and how it should be portrayed. However, all theories make for very interesting speculations and discussion. So here goes.
The above said, I think Catherine's actions in the clip are justifiable. In her position, she should NOT be defending Vincent's actions of throwing Sam in the dungeon. Why? Vincent, once again, figuring that he knows best, just went off and tracked Sam and threw him in the cell. How could that possibly help Catherine and Gabe build a legal case against Sam? As Sam tells Vincent, he has spent 6 years burying his tracks. At this point, hauling him into the precinct would get nowhere fast. There is no evidence that connects back to Sam. WE know that Sam has experimented with children, orphaned children who were already victims to boot. In the actual sense of justice scheme of things, Vincent would be entirely justified in ripping the guy's heart out. However, we have a legal system/code in this country. You can't just go hurt someone because they deserve it. Vincent has committed false imprisonment, kidnapping, assault and battery, and those are the charges I can think of just off the top of my head. How will that help Catherine and Gabe? Now, they have to cover up Vincent's actions.
Yes, Vincent meant well. However, just meaning well is not enough for Catherine now, given everything else that has happened. Had Vincent called Catherine BEFORE he took action and worked WITH her, then the efforts could have been spent in building a case and obtaining evidence. Vincent is just so desperate to show Cat that he can do good that he is still doing wrong and engaging before thinking. As others have pointed out before, Vincent has to fix himself FOR HIMSELF first before he can have anything to give to another person, even Cat.
Plus, Vincent still has a ways to go in his self-proclaimed Beast taming. Sam is behind bars and unable to hurt Vincent with anything other than words. Yet his words cause Vincent to decide to assault him. ((I MUST comment that it only takes Catherine yelling "Vincent!" for him to turn around and immediately calm down at just the site of her, even though she is with Gabe. She is his rock and his center.)) Vincent hears the censure come his way from Gabe (the one person we all know that Vincent wants the least to hear condescending talk from) and does not beast out further. This DOES show Vincent's character growth in that he is now able to hear opinions he would rather not hear and take them in without Beasting out. ((Sam got him to Beast out because Sam WENT THERE--commenting on Catherine. Also secretly loved that part as it shows that is the one sure way to get Vincent riled up uncontrollably.))
Vincent can't just be the man he thinks Catherine wants him to be. He has to come to find his own moral code and sense of self to be the man that Cat loves. Catherine will never love a Hollow Man with no sense of self that just does what others influencing him want. As we saw Catherine routinely tell Vincent in Season 1 when she was constantly wrestling with Vincent's actions, she understood that Vincent was trying to Save People. Saving People was Vincent's motivation, not just pleasing Catherine.
Catherine in an officer of the law. It is her job to enforce it. Does that mean that guilty people get away with stuff in this country? Unfortunately, all the time. But law is certainly better than anarchy, and no system is perfect. Catherine is trying to find a way to work within the system.
Based on what we now know from previews, pictures, etc., I think the compromising position that Catherine will find herself in regarding Vincent is meant from a professional basis, not romantic one. Catherine is going to take a hit from this professionally, mark my words. And Vincent will see how his actions end up costing her, yet again. And we can now all see what is coming down the line for her come episode 218 when she yet again has to do something that will cost her in order to protect Vincent.
What is so frustrating for all of us is in this circumstance is that who doesn't just want Vincent to rip Sam's heart out and be done with it? You certainly don't deserve redemption if you go out experimenting and getting killed innocent people in a quest for revenge (no matter how much the corporate jerks deserve it for what they did to Sam's son). Sam IS the very thing that we DON'T WANT to happen to Vincent. Sam sees no real way for the justice he wants for his son, so he resorts to Vigilante Justice. In the process, he has lost his soul, his goodness, his love, and it would appear his sanity. Nothing matters but revenge, no matter how many good people get in the way. (The Jacob Broadsky plot from BONES for all those of you that watch that show. Jacob Broadsky was a former military sniper that would kill bad guys. Problem was, he saw himself on a "mission" to get all bad guys and did not care if he had to murder an innocent man to steal his gun or an innocent girl because he needed her apartment to get off the perfect shot.) Sam has decided to do whatever he has to do to hurt the bad people. While I think those bad people that killed his son also deserve to go down in a terrible way, the problem is that if it is not done correctly through the system, look at the collateral damage and carnage and loss of decency that results. And where do you draw the line? We already saw Vincent lose himself completely and cease to care for anyone when he went on the path of blind murder without question. Vincent would basically be sacrificing his soul if he takes out Sam in cold-blooded fashion. And remember, Cat saw that same thing when Vincent tried to kill Reynolds. Therefore, flashback to the madness and heartbreak for Cat in seeing Vincent poised to hurt Sam who can't do damage at that moment from his dungeon cell.
It is hard to know that if Vincent takes out Sam in the heat of the moment when Sam is hurting/killing someone, that is a justified, self-defense kind of killing. Society is okay with that as long as only reasonable force was used in order to protect others and the greater good. HOWEVER, in Season 1, even those kind of deaths wore thin on Vincent. As it should do, since it means he retains that Strong Ethical Moral Code and Desire to Help Others which is what made Catherine fall in love with him in the first place.
Again, I like the parrallels to BEAUTY AND THE BEAST Original Series. Sam makes reference to the fact that Vincent can't come forward about Sam without revealing what Vincent really is. In the original series, Vincent observes two rich kids kill a poor girl just for the fun of it. Vincent can't come forward to testify. Leaves Catherine in the undesirable position of having no real evidence to go after these rich kids and leave them to kill again as a result. This is a failure of the system. Ultimately, the matter gets resolved because said rich kids decide to murder Catherine. Big mistake, of course. Vincent then kills them in self-defense, but we all get to see how terribly close to the edge that this puts Vincent in having to murder yet again, even when justified. Vincent ultimately descends into madness because of it. We see that this has happened to Sam and ALMOST happened to our Vincent from this series. We want the bad guys gone of course, but at what cost to our characters?
I can also see now how Gabe will be justified in telling Vincent to stay away from Catherine. After all, his actions have now helped put her career at risk. This theme will continue to play out in 216, obviously. We can guess that Vincent will do the right thing and, of course, not leave Catherine without protection. And Sam WILL now go after Catherine as a way of offsetting both Vincent and Gabe. I think this makes for interesting plots in the road to Redemption for Vincent, Catherine, and Gabe as ALL THREE of them are faced with determining where the lines should be drawn both personally and professionally. And sooner or later, we all know that Gabe is going to have to be found lacking and Vincent seen as the better man because Catherine will make the right choice eventually based on the actions and deeds of these two men. I DON'T want Catherine simply falling into Vincent's arms without knowing that he is a good and righteous man. Love has to be based on something, so I am willing to watch this whole thing play out on the screen. Okay, that is my two cents worth. Let me know your thoughts, fellow Beasties!
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Post by crazyforbatb_has season 3 on Mar 1, 2014 19:37:07 GMT -5
Yes, eyeofthetiger, once more the "small, quiet voice of reason." I enjoy reading your thoughts and speculations because they show the whole picture, we get to see the sum total of all the parts of this show/story. Sometimes it is hard (and I speak for myself here) to see beyond the fragments and we can't piece them together to form a whole. I agree that as JT said to V "you have to do what you want to do." Vincent has to fix himself for himself, for the sake of his humanity and not just because he wants to be a better man for Catherine (while that should be part of it because we are all inspiredbto be better and do better by others). And parts of his growth are shown to as we see his beastly side slowly being brought under control aka calming down and not killing Sam, also taking flak from pretty-boy without flinching much. I think he knows that he was wrong. Yes, too about Catherine. As an officer of the law she has to uphold the integrity of that law because as fallible or faulty as it is, it is all we have and if we make up our own rules and morality then we have nothing but chaos. BUT what makes us beasties sad and frustrated is that she is quick to cross certain lines when she needs V's help and beastly power. Then the lines become blurred and she seems to accept that! Really? V & C & G have to define the lines they are prepared to cross and those they will uphold to death even or if it meant ratting someone out. All three need to discover who they really are as individuals. V and C need to know who they are before they can come together as that one soul mate couple. I think you may be right about the compromising situation for Catherine too. Us romantics are thinking and hoping it's one involving our beloved VinCat and G finds them LOL. But maybe the compromising situation happens at the ball where Cat is dragged off by the FBI heavies and is then questioned re: her invlovement with Sam. I think the story gets better and better but like you said many have not been happy with the road taken to get there. (PS Me too cause I think the triangles were done wrong)
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Post by ·· K å t ·· on Mar 2, 2014 4:59:35 GMT -5
Okay, I'm weighing in here with my two cents worth. I figured I would wait a day from the sneak peak clips being released for the fandom to calm down. Please don't hate the opinion/speculation/justification I am fixing to present. Just take it in and think on it. Above all else, please know I am a staunch VinCat believer all the way. I appreciate this forum because it allows us to speculate and express our individual theories on the characters, plots, and episodes. I love knowing that in my heart, we all want what is best for Vincent and Catherine which is for them to be together. We just disagree on the journey there and how it should be portrayed. However, all theories make for very interesting speculations and discussion. So here goes. The above said, I think Catherine's actions in the clip are justifiable. In her position, she should NOT be defending Vincent's actions of throwing Sam in the dungeon. Why? Vincent, once again, figuring that he knows best, just went off and tracked Sam and threw him in the cell. How could that possibly help Catherine and Gabe build a legal case against Sam? As Sam tells Vincent, he has spent 6 years burying his tracks. At this point, hauling him into the precinct would get nowhere fast. There is no evidence that connects back to Sam. WE know that Sam has experimented with children, orphaned children who were already victims to boot. In the actual sense of justice scheme of things, Vincent would be entirely justified in ripping the guy's heart out. However, we have a legal system/code in this country. You can't just go hurt someone because they deserve it. Vincent has committed false imprisonment, kidnapping, assault and battery, and those are the charges I can think of just off the top of my head. How will that help Catherine and Gabe? Now, they have to cover up Vincent's actions. Yes, Vincent meant well. However, just meaning well is not enough for Catherine now, given everything else that has happened. Had Vincent called Catherine BEFORE he took action and worked WITH her, then the efforts could have been spent in building a case and obtaining evidence. Vincent is just so desperate to show Cat that he can do good that he is still doing wrong and engaging before thinking. As others have pointed out before, Vincent has to fix himself FOR HIMSELF first before he can have anything to give to another person, even Cat. Plus, Vincent still has a ways to go in his self-proclaimed Beast taming. Sam is behind bars and unable to hurt Vincent with anything other than words. Yet his words cause Vincent to decide to assault him. (( I MUST comment that it only takes Catherine yelling "Vincent!" for him to turn around and immediately calm down at just the site of her, even though she is with Gabe. She is his rock and his center.)) Vincent hears the censure come his way from Gabe (the one person we all know that Vincent wants the least to hear condescending talk from) and does not beast out further. This DOES show Vincent's character growth in that he is now able to hear opinions he would rather not hear and take them in without Beasting out. ((Sam got him to Beast out because Sam WENT THERE--commenting on Catherine. Also secretly loved that part as it shows that is the one sure way to get Vincent riled up uncontrollably.)) Vincent can't just be the man he thinks Catherine wants him to be. He has to come to find his own moral code and sense of self to be the man that Cat loves. Catherine will never love a Hollow Man with no sense of self that just does what others influencing him want. As we saw Catherine routinely tell Vincent in Season 1 when she was constantly wrestling with Vincent's actions, she understood that Vincent was trying to Save People. Saving People was Vincent's motivation, not just pleasing Catherine.Catherine in an officer of the law. It is her job to enforce it. Does that mean that guilty people get away with stuff in this country? Unfortunately, all the time. But law is certainly better than anarchy, and no system is perfect. Catherine is trying to find a way to work within the system. Based on what we now know from previews, pictures, etc., I think the compromising position that Catherine will find herself in regarding Vincent is meant from a professional basis, not romantic one. Catherine is going to take a hit from this professionally, mark my words. And Vincent will see how his actions end up costing her, yet again. And we can now all see what is coming down the line for her come episode 218 when she yet again has to do something that will cost her in order to protect Vincent. What is so frustrating for all of us is in this circumstance is that who doesn't just want Vincent to rip Sam's heart out and be done with it? You certainly don't deserve redemption if you go out experimenting and getting killed innocent people in a quest for revenge (no matter how much the corporate jerks deserve it for what they did to Sam's son). Sam IS the very thing that we DON'T WANT to happen to Vincent. Sam sees no real way for the justice he wants for his son, so he resorts to Vigilante Justice. In the process, he has lost his soul, his goodness, his love, and it would appear his sanity. Nothing matters but revenge, no matter how many good people get in the way. (The Jacob Broadsky plot from BONES for all those of you that watch that show. Jacob Broadsky was a former military sniper that would kill bad guys. Problem was, he saw himself on a "mission" to get all bad guys and did not care if he had to murder an innocent man to steal his gun or an innocent girl because he needed her apartment to get off the perfect shot.) Sam has decided to do whatever he has to do to hurt the bad people. While I think those bad people that killed his son also deserve to go down in a terrible way, the problem is that if it is not done correctly through the system, look at the collateral damage and carnage and loss of decency that results. And where do you draw the line? We already saw Vincent lose himself completely and cease to care for anyone when he went on the path of blind murder without question. Vincent would basically be sacrificing his soul if he takes out Sam in cold-blooded fashion. And remember, Cat saw that same thing when Vincent tried to kill Reynolds. Therefore, flashback to the madness and heartbreak for Cat in seeing Vincent poised to hurt Sam who can't do damage at that moment from his dungeon cell. It is hard to know that if Vincent takes out Sam in the heat of the moment when Sam is hurting/killing someone, that is a justified, self-defense kind of killing. Society is okay with that as long as only reasonable force was used in order to protect others and the greater good. HOWEVER, in Season 1, even those kind of deaths wore thin on Vincent. As it should do, since it means he retains that Strong Ethical Moral Code and Desire to Help Others which is what made Catherine fall in love with him in the first place. Again, I like the parrallels to BEAUTY AND THE BEAST Original Series. Sam makes reference to the fact that Vincent can't come forward about Sam without revealing what Vincent really is. In the original series, Vincent observes two rich kids kill a poor girl just for the fun of it. Vincent can't come forward to testify. Leaves Catherine in the undesirable position of having no real evidence to go after these rich kids and leave them to kill again as a result. This is a failure of the system. Ultimately, the matter gets resolved because said rich kids decide to murder Catherine. Big mistake, of course. Vincent then kills them in self-defense, but we all get to see how terribly close to the edge that this puts Vincent in having to murder yet again, even when justified. Vincent ultimately descends into madness because of it. We see that this has happened to Sam and ALMOST happened to our Vincent from this series. We want the bad guys gone of course, but at what cost to our characters? I can also see now how Gabe will be justified in telling Vincent to stay away from Catherine. After all, his actions have now helped put her career at risk. This theme will continue to play out in 216, obviously. We can guess that Vincent will do the right thing and, of course, not leave Catherine without protection. And Sam WILL now go after Catherine as a way of offsetting both Vincent and Gabe. I think this makes for interesting plots in the road to Redemption for Vincent, Catherine, and Gabe as ALL THREE of them are faced with determining where the lines should be drawn both personally and professionally. And sooner or later, we all know that Gabe is going to have to be found lacking and Vincent seen as the better man because Catherine will make the right choice eventually based on the actions and deeds of these two men. I DON'T want Catherine simply falling into Vincent's arms without knowing that he is a good and righteous man. Love has to be based on something, so I am willing to watch this whole thing play out on the screen. Okay, that is my two cents worth. Let me know your thoughts, fellow Beasties! really well wrote!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 7:59:33 GMT -5
Again, I like the parrallels to BEAUTY AND THE BEAST Original Series.
This would actually also be a parallel to Season !, and we have had tons of those this season. It makes me remember E3, when Vincent could be an alibi for Irena (I believe that was her name), but he can't come forward and offer evidence, because that would expose him. Yes, it is the season of parallels....deliberate or lack of imagination, that is the question?
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Post by jaykris on Mar 2, 2014 9:04:22 GMT -5
Does anyone else predict that they end this episode with the car crash?
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Mar 2, 2014 9:26:21 GMT -5
Does anyone else predict that they end this episode with the car crash? Well austin talked about climactic ending but i was hoping of a different type... i dont think if this is how it ended they would show it in the promo so no
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 9:32:59 GMT -5
Does anyone else predict that they end this episode with the car crash? Well austin talked about climactic ending but i was hoping of a different type... i dont think if this is how it ended they would show it in the promo so no I am really hoping for a fire escape scene with lots of communication to end this episode.......thus causing the need for Catherine to have a girl talk with Tess "about last night".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 9:39:08 GMT -5
Does anyone else predict that they end this episode with the car crash? If this episode ends with the car crash the writers will be attesting their lack of creativity (not that they proved the contrary so far *cough* Vincent kissing Tori exactly like Alex *cough*). Bridesmaid Up ended liked that. It would be just sloppy.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Mar 2, 2014 9:46:17 GMT -5
Well austin talked about climactic ending but i was hoping of a different type... i dont think if this is how it ended they would show it in the promo so no I am really hoping for a fire escape scene with lots of communication to end this episode.......thus causing the need for Catherine to have a girl talk with Tess "about last night". i reckon it will be a boathouse scene
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 9:56:48 GMT -5
I am really hoping for a fire escape scene with lots of communication to end this episode.......thus causing the need for Catherine to have a girl talk with Tess "about last night". i reckon it will be a boathouse scene You may be right, anapi -season3baby :), but I am hoping that what I don't see in the promo will happen.....Vincent coming to see Catherine at her place.....no sandwiches....just a sit down with heart to heart talking on her fire escape.
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Post by ForgetMeNot => S3 4BATBeasties on Mar 2, 2014 10:05:16 GMT -5
That's the final straight guys! We're going to be told soon.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Mar 2, 2014 13:42:07 GMT -5
Serena Candian @sere25na 4h @austinbasis gimme hope man..one word for ep215..I know u gave some but 1 to give the whole mood in it? ?have a great day #kingbeastie #batb Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand Austin Basis @austinbasis 4h @sere25na INTENSE. #DontStopBATBelieving #MayTheForbesBeWithYou Hide conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More
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Post by bookworm on Mar 2, 2014 15:19:44 GMT -5
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