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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 1, 2017 21:26:51 GMT -5
Well, the recap was fun! I will now go home and watch the Pilot again to think about the questions and post my answers and further comments tomorrow.
The "Pilot" never gets old. And you SEE even more every time you watch. The VinCat scenes really couldn't get more perfect. The romance and potential intrigue is there from the start. And that VinCat CHEMISTRY. How Jay knew to play those scenes so perfectly, when you think about the revelations that come further-on in the series that relate back. . . .
I still do have one particular question that has always haunted me ---based on what we learn in later seasons, it sounds like Vincent managed to find his way back to the US all muddled-like. His memories were CLEARLY either repressed or forcibly removed, as Vincent doesn't even seem to remember Vanessa's presence until the drug-induced haze that comes in "Trapped" and later on in Season 4 when he remembers about the army guy sparing his life. BUT Vincent in S2's "About Last Night" talks about getting back and originally pursuing Muirfield, which kind-of is supported in "Heart of Darkness" when he admits to Evan that he already knows about Cat's parents. So Vincent does all that, apparently THEN saves Cat, and decides to find JT and go into hiding AFTER that. So apparently SAVING CAT is what convinces Vincent to quit throwing his life away trying to stalk or get revenge on Muirfield. He instead decides to live, watch over Cat from a distance, and always hope to somehow MEET her at some point in the future.
I think Vincent ultimately finds and confides in JT because he WANTED to find a cure in order to be with Cat. So I think saving her gave Vincent the wake-up call he needed to try to find a way to survive and work his way to her. We know from JT that Vincent and he worked on the cure for years from the time that JT learned that Vincent was alive.
So I think Catherine actually provided Vincent's MOTIVATION originally to end the destructive path of rage and revenge-seeking against Muirfield that Vincent later will again fall prey to in Season 2 against Reynolds. But ONCE AGAIN, Cat provides motivation to find a different way, resolve his issues, and move FORWARD.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 21:29:53 GMT -5
PINKDAISIES,
I never thought of JT's relationship with Vincent in that way before, but you really nailed it. JT really IS like the over-protective father who just KNOWS that Cat will be trouble, even if she doesn't mean to be. Her profession by its very nature will almost have to cause conflict, especially when we know how dedicated Cat is to solving a case and getting justice.
But Vincent has become so closed-off, restless, and downright miserable. Jay really played Vincent as so HOPEFUL and eager to have Cat in his life. He looks so longingly at Cat when she is at the party. He wants so desperately to keep her and be with her. And JT automatically KNOWS that Vincent won't be able to stay away, despite the danger.
But I love how JT respects Vincent's ultimate judgment and leaves Vincent alone with Cat when asked to. Even though he has about a million questions about just WHEN Vincent and Cat managed to meet and interact, particularly as neither was surprised to see the other! JT ends up being a favorite and the few episodes he isn't in I miss him. But gosh he was mean to Cat in the beginning. I know why and all that but he needs to brush up on his social skills, too! What's great is how Cat and Vincent just ignore his little temper tantrums and rudeness much of the time. It's so fascinating to see her relationship with JT now and compare it to S4 when she says she loves him and he returns the sentiment. I melted.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 1, 2017 21:30:35 GMT -5
I have burned multiple BATB cd's. And the ones I listen to regularly have S1 and S2 songs. I had never heard Noel Gallagher post-Oasis until Season 1's episode "Basic Instinct" when you hear "Everybody's On The Run," one of my top favorite songs ever. And it was SO perfect for Vincent, especially when you listen to the whole song. (But I guess I better wait to go over that until we get to that episode!!)
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 1, 2017 21:35:21 GMT -5
And JT is so mean to Catherine in the beginning because he just knows how crushing it will be for Vincent to lose Cat or, even worse, if he accidentally harms Cat. Which is a fear for Vincent early-on as well.
And I also think JT, like Vincent, had become so ISOLATED over the years due to Muirfield (as we hear about later in "Saturn Returns") that both Vincent AND JT seem to be lacking in social skills, having not been able to allow anyone to get close to them due to the whole Muirfield and being hunted. JT wants to protect Vincent, but both are resentful somewhat about what all it has cost each one of them. When neither of them have deserved such a life and isolation. We learn later that JT lost a girlfriend and the friends and life he had built in having to protect Vincent. He doesn't tell Vincent this to make him feel guilty, but to remind Vincent about the burden it creates for friends that come into their life, knowing that Muirfield is just waiting for someone to mess up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 21:35:29 GMT -5
I have burned multiple BATB cd's. And the ones I listen to regularly have S1 and S2 songs. I had never heard Noel Gallagher post-Oasis until Season 1's episode "Basic Instinct" when you hear "Everybody's On The Run," one of my top favorite songs ever. And it was SO perfect for Vincent, especially when you listen to the whole song. (But I guess I better wait to go over that until we get to that episode!!)
I'm a sap and found I usually liked the songs playing when they would be having conversations at her patio door or fire escape.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 21:50:16 GMT -5
And JT is so mean to Catherine in the beginning because he just knows how crushing it will be for Vincent to lose Cat or, even worse, if he accidentally harms Cat. Which is a fear for Vincent early-on as well.
And I also think JT, like Vincent, had become so ISOLATED over the years due to Muirfield (as we hear about later in "Saturn Returns") that both Vincent AND JT seem to be lacking in social skills, having not been able to allow anyone to get close to them due to the whole Muirfield and being hunted. JT wants to protect Vincent, but both are resentful somewhat about what all it has cost each one of them. When neither of them have deserved such a life and isolation. We learn later that JT lost a girlfriend and the friends and life he had built in having to protect Vincent. He doesn't tell Vincent this to make him feel guilty, but to remind Vincent about the burden it creates for friends that come into their life, knowing that Muirfield is just waiting for someone to mess up. I always thought JT's reasons for being rude was to protect Vincent from Muirfield as well as not trusting Cat. I never thought of him actually being worried about Cat's well-being. JT and Vincent can be self-absorbed due to their circumstances.
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Post by joyabeast on Feb 2, 2017 0:21:49 GMT -5
One of my favourite moments of the episode is when Vincent is telling JT the defination of insanity. His voice is so husky and I loved the way Jay did the scene.
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Post by bbatb on Feb 2, 2017 9:57:01 GMT -5
Well, the recap was fun! I will now go home and watch the Pilot again to think about the questions and post my answers and further comments tomorrow.
The "Pilot" never gets old. And you SEE even more every time you watch. The VinCat scenes really couldn't get more perfect. The romance and potential intrigue is there from the start. And that VinCat CHEMISTRY. How Jay knew to play those scenes so perfectly, when you think about the revelations that come further-on in the series that relate back. . . .
I still do have one particular question that has always haunted me ---based on what we learn in later seasons, it sounds like Vincent managed to find his way back to the US all muddled-like. His memories were CLEARLY either repressed or forcibly removed, as Vincent doesn't even seem to remember Vanessa's presence until the drug-induced haze that comes in "Trapped" and later on in Season 4 when he remembers about the army guy sparing his life. BUT Vincent in S2's "About Last Night" talks about getting back and originally pursuing Muirfield, which kind-of is supported in "Heart of Darkness" when he admits to Evan that he already knows about Cat's parents. So Vincent does all that, apparently THEN saves Cat, and decides to find JT and go into hiding AFTER that. So apparently SAVING CAT is what convinces Vincent to quit throwing his life away trying to stalk or get revenge on Muirfield. He instead decides to live, watch over Cat from a distance, and always hope to somehow MEET her at some point in the future.
I think Vincent ultimately finds and confides in JT because he WANTED to find a cure in order to be with Cat. So I think saving her gave Vincent the wake-up call he needed to try to find a way to survive and work his way to her. We know from JT that Vincent and he worked on the cure for years from the time that JT learned that Vincent was alive.
So I think Catherine actually provided Vincent's MOTIVATION originally to end the destructive path of rage and revenge-seeking against Muirfield that Vincent later will again fall prey to in Season 2 against Reynolds. But ONCE AGAIN, Cat provides motivation to find a different way, resolve his issues, and move FORWARD.
I have always thought that Vanessa was instrumental in bringing Vincent back from Afganistan. She might have had access to a private plane through her work with Muirfield and smuggled him on board. Since she knew from his files that JT submitted his name, she could have helped him get back to JT once they were back in the US. Otherwise, why would Vincent be there when Vanessa was shot and Catherine was attacked? I like to think that he was keeping an eye on Vanessa and followed her that fateful night. He still could have forgotten about her role in turning him into a beast and just was grateful that she got him out of there and SHE would have helped him because he saved her from being shot during the altercation with this officer.
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Post by joyabeast on Feb 2, 2017 11:40:13 GMT -5
Well, the recap was fun! I will now go home and watch the Pilot again to think about the questions and post my answers and further comments tomorrow.
The "Pilot" never gets old. And you SEE even more every time you watch. The VinCat scenes really couldn't get more perfect. The romance and potential intrigue is there from the start. And that VinCat CHEMISTRY. How Jay knew to play those scenes so perfectly, when you think about the revelations that come further-on in the series that relate back. . . .
I still do have one particular question that has always haunted me ---based on what we learn in later seasons, it sounds like Vincent managed to find his way back to the US all muddled-like. His memories were CLEARLY either repressed or forcibly removed, as Vincent doesn't even seem to remember Vanessa's presence until the drug-induced haze that comes in "Trapped" and later on in Season 4 when he remembers about the army guy sparing his life. BUT Vincent in S2's "About Last Night" talks about getting back and originally pursuing Muirfield, which kind-of is supported in "Heart of Darkness" when he admits to Evan that he already knows about Cat's parents. So Vincent does all that, apparently THEN saves Cat, and decides to find JT and go into hiding AFTER that. So apparently SAVING CAT is what convinces Vincent to quit throwing his life away trying to stalk or get revenge on Muirfield. He instead decides to live, watch over Cat from a distance, and always hope to somehow MEET her at some point in the future.
I think Vincent ultimately finds and confides in JT because he WANTED to find a cure in order to be with Cat. So I think saving her gave Vincent the wake-up call he needed to try to find a way to survive and work his way to her. We know from JT that Vincent and he worked on the cure for years from the time that JT learned that Vincent was alive.
So I think Catherine actually provided Vincent's MOTIVATION originally to end the destructive path of rage and revenge-seeking against Muirfield that Vincent later will again fall prey to in Season 2 against Reynolds. But ONCE AGAIN, Cat provides motivation to find a different way, resolve his issues, and move FORWARD.
I have always thought that Vanessa was instrumental in bringing Vincent back from Afganistan. She might have had access to a private plane through her work with Muirfield and smuggled him on board. Since she knew from his files that JT submitted his name, she could have helped him get back to JT once they were back in the US. Otherwise, why would Vincent be there when Vanessa was shot and Catherine was attacked? I like to think that he was keeping an eye on Vanessa and followed her that fateful night. He still could have forgotten about her role in turning him into a beast and just was grateful that she got him out of there and SHE would have helped him because he saved her from being shot during the altercation with this officer. I like this idea and I always thought about something like this hpappened. BATB should have done flash back about how Vincent esaped from Afganistan and came to US.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 15:19:12 GMT -5
I admit that I also share the "Vanessa helps Vincent escape Theory." There really is no other way that a new-beast-addled Vincent could have devised a plan and gotten past so many soldiers on his own. Not at that time, when Vincent was untrained and unsure of his newfound beast powers.
I will even go a step farther with my belief that it was VANESSA that originally developed the drug combination that erased certain memories that Bob Reynolds later develops further and uses on Vincent. Would have been WHY Bob would have sought Vincent for the procedure in the first place, since he would have known that it worked on him previously.
Vanessa would have used the drugs to part pacify/part aid Vincent in case Muirfield did capture him, since Vincent wouldn't be able to remember certain things that the government would kill him for knowing. Like who exactly were the scientists that MADE beasts. So Vincent WOULD remember that Vanessa saved him, but he would NOT remember that she was the one who injected him in the first place UNTIL "Trapped."
Quite frankly, the above is the only theory that makes sense to me. It explains WHY Vincent was tracking Vanessa on "the night" as he would know that she saved him, thus making her a likely target for Muirfield. After "Trapped," Vincent remembers still more which explains how he knows details that Evan learns in "Heart of Darkness."
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 15:35:30 GMT -5
I also admit to dearly loving the theory that Vincent comes back angry and hankering for revenge against Muirfield. That he is behaving similarly to Vincent S-2 in going after revenge. Yet seeing and saving Cat somehow wakes Vincent's inner humanity and gives him a reason OTHER than revenge for which to live. And to even seek a cure. So Vincent turns from revenge, seeks out JT, and goes from there. Secretly watching Catherine for years, yearning to meet her.
So yeah, if it is not already clear, I DO BELIEVE it was "Love at First Sight" for VinCat. Even if they don't know or realize it. YES, they still have to get to know each other and fall (further) in love. But there was something THERE, right from the beginning, and we see it when Cat and beast-Vincent just STARE at one another. It is not fear in Cat's eyes or Vincent's. Just some sort of understanding and recognition of all that they COULD be to one another. Right from the first moment.
As a side note, I think BATB went with very similar beginnings as 2003's "Tarzan." The foundation of this show was how a female cop is saved by a beast-like man (Tarzan/John Clayton), and it is "love at first sight," right from the get-go. Tarzan automatically understands that he loves Jane and can't understand why she literally won't live and be with him right from the beginning. He can "sense" that she feels the same, even if she denies it (and is dating a fellow cop). And Jane acknowledges from episode 1 that she has "feelings" for this strange guy, but she tells him "you don't even know me." So Jane fights the attracting and the idea of Love at First Sight.
"Tarzan" starred Travis Fimmel ("Vikings") and Sarah Wayne Callies ("Prison Break," "Walking Dead," "The Colony"). Lucy Lawless and Mitch Peliggi ("X-Files," "Stargate Atlantis") also starred. In fact, multiple television greats were in this thing, but it had the very same problems (and more) that BATB would later have. Tarzan started out helping Jane in her cases, but he, like Vincent, must stay in hiding to keep his uncle from locking him up to get the 6 billion dollar share of the family company that John Clayton/Tarzan inherits due to the death of his father. The WB stated to the press that they wanted the show to NOT be about the love story of Tarzan and Jane but more of a procedural/deal with cases and other issues. And you CAN'T do a show based on a Love Story that intends NOT to get the main couple together. So NO WONDER that the show failed in only 9 episodes.
The WB/CW did seem to learn from "Tarzan," although it copied a great deal of the undertone (and problems) when premiering BATB. At least by BATB, the CW had learned to make the Love Story the most important part, as THAT was the reason the fans watched.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 15:43:39 GMT -5
Is everyone still on board for the re-watch of Season 1, Episode 2's "Proceed With Caution" for tonight (Wed.) at 8:00 p.m.?
Also, would everyone prefer to continue the Re-Watch under this thread, or should we open separate threads for each episode?
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 20:00:02 GMT -5
"PROCEED WITH CAUTION" re-watch:
YAY! I love these early BATB episodes!!!! 1 minute until start-up!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 20:01:13 GMT -5
Again, the music is awesome, right from the start.
Okay, the voiceover/journal entry is a little to Roswell-ish for me. And you know that Roswell stopped that as well!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Feb 8, 2017 20:02:39 GMT -5
The initial introduction by Catherine and Vincent is admittedly necessary originally. And it IS like the BATB 87 original.
Hey Heather!! I'm glad they waited until Episode 2 to introduce her.
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