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Post by batb4evr1 on Oct 19, 2016 16:49:57 GMT -5
It is so fantastic to have gotten notices that my DEN mates are still posting. I have been re-watching our GEM an episode a week from Season 1 with the mindset that it is a brand new experience. I have noticed so many great dialogues and other scenes I seemed to have missed the first several times I watched. Next week I'll be watching episode 21! I'm going on Date Night with Cat and Vincent!!! I never trusted Gabe Lowan!!!
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Oct 29, 2016 21:03:08 GMT -5
One thing I really liked about JT&T is that everytime they broke up it was clear why they broke and where they are in the situation. They never cheated on each other. It was always something else that broke them rather than their lack of trust. In that matter I am angry that VinCat always separated because V broke Cat heart or cheated on her. Tess didn't sleep with other guy when she broke up with JT but still she was a strong woman. Don't know why Vincent and Cat had to sleep with other people when they broke up. Technically, Vincent NEVER cheated on Cat. They broke up in Season 2 because he couldn't control his beast side and his anger towards Bob Reynolds and took the law into his own hands. This did break Cat's heart. Also, they broke up because Cat shot him. Vincent was not yet back to his old self and Tori's presence (or the presence of any other beast) has been seen to bring out the worst of Vincent's beast side. They both drifted into other relationships but whilst I think Vincent and Tori's was not serious, (Vincent ended it with Tori just before she died and she accepted that she should never have tried to come between him and Cat) Cat did everything to convince herself (and Vincent) that her relationship with Gabe was the real thing. I think she was deluding herself as I don't think she ever stopped loving Vincent, but she knew they couldn't be together at that time, and she tried to protect herself from getting hurt again by throwing herself into a toxic relationship with Gabe. It was only a matter of time before Vincent could show her he had changed and she accepted her feelings for him had never gone away. After all, she started 2x16 saying she was still with Gabe but ended the episode telling Vincent that she loved him. Don't get me wrong, I hated them being apart and I hated seeing them in other relationships but I have to confess that this made their reunion in 2x15 and 2x16 all the more satisfying.
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Post by joyabeast on Oct 29, 2016 21:10:31 GMT -5
Of course Vincent cheated on Cat, he kissed Tori or whatever.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Oct 30, 2016 4:00:00 GMT -5
Of course Vincent cheated on Cat, he kissed Tori or whatever. You're right, he kissed Tori at the Thanksgiving episode, VinCat were still together then.
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Post by joyabeast on Oct 30, 2016 4:16:51 GMT -5
Of course Vincent cheated on Cat, he kissed Tori or whatever. You're right, he kissed Tori at the Thanksgiving episode, VinCat were still together then. You know one thing that always angered me was that with any other beast V just wanted to hurt them but he never wanted to hurt Tori. I get that Tori was female but still. And I never understood how at first Tori could affect V and than in 212 V was totally free of her influence except for briefly transformating at the boat house before Agent. Landon.
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Post by bbatb on Oct 30, 2016 6:02:25 GMT -5
You're right, he kissed Tori at the Thanksgiving episode, VinCat were still together then. You know one thing that always angered me was that with any other beast V just wanted to hurt them but he never wanted to hurt Tori. I get that Tori was female but still. And I never understood how at first Tori could affect V and than in 212 V was totally free of her influence except for briefly transformating at the boat house before Agent. Landon. THAT was one of the big failures of S2 (there were lots more, of course): WE did not get to see or understand how it all of a sudden happened that he wanted out of the relationship. He started to mentally cheat on Tori by creeping out of bed and secretly calling Catherine and completely excluding Tori from their discussions about the gem. To be fair to Vincent, Tori has stated earlier that she was NOT interested in the gem or the skeleton and what it meant to their past, so I guess he did not bother her with that subject and found a more sympathetic 'ear' with Catherine. But how he overcame this 'overwhelming' influence of Tori is never really shown or explained. What really bothers me about 212 (and yes, I know that is my pet peeve and I sound like a broken record) is the absolutely botched so-called break-up between Vincent and Tori. I just wish they would have done this better and in a way where Catherine could have witnessed it, because the way they did it, Catherine must feel that she is his second choice AGAIN, because another statuesque red-head fell by the wayside and Vincent turns to her afterwards AGAIN. SHE has no idea that they broke up before Tori died. It somewhat spoils the reunion later on for me by her being his second choice in S1 AND in S2. That and the fact that they make Catherine a cheater too in 215. She states to all and sundry 10 times per episode that she is 'with the ADA from hell' now and even says it to Vincent 3 minutes before she falls into his arms. Not that I care about G., but I care about what that says about her character. They could have totally have her break up with G. BEFORE she started back up with Vincent: clean break, clear decision, no waffling back and forth about it like the morning after when she was telling Tess (and of course herself) that it was just break-up sex. If Vincent is her 'epic' love, how can she talk about break-up sex? I totally did not buy into this 'being confused and traumatised' psycho babble stuff.
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Post by joyabeast on Oct 30, 2016 8:51:15 GMT -5
Clearly the showrunners forgot that this was a epic fairy tale not some teenage drama, where everybody date each other.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 22:59:36 GMT -5
I really miss not having a new episode to look forward to each week.
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Post by joyabeast on Nov 13, 2016 2:51:41 GMT -5
I really miss not having a new episode to look forward to each week. Me too.
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Post by joyabeast on Nov 14, 2016 13:55:18 GMT -5
I realised that up untill episode 11 in s4, it was quite romantic. God knows what happened after that. Like the last episode should be more romantic but it wasn't. God I miss BATB.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Nov 14, 2016 17:57:31 GMT -5
Okay, you HAVE to realize what Episode 212 was TRYING to achieve. (And basically, you pick it up from the camera angles.) They focus on CAT's face when Tori dies, and there IS a reason for that--Cat was NOT a party to Vincent's break-up with Tori. BY NOT HAVING CAT LEARN OF THE BREAK-UP, she MISCONSTRUES Vincent's realization that HIS WRONG decisions have led to Tori's death (after all, he taught her to track people, he acted impulsively with her in seeking out their enemies without a plan other than relying on "beast powers"). So Cat sees Vincent's remorse as he kneels over Tori's corpse as genuine GRIEF and LOVE. As a result, she thinks that Vincent HAS MOVED ON from her completely.
Cat had steadfastly been RESISTENT to starting a relationship with Gabe because she (in her innermost thoughts, which IS evidenced by her devotion to Vincent in always taking his calls, even when she almost burns down her apartment in the process!) maintained that emotional connection to Vincent. HE is the one she wanted to talk to at night---I mean, she hadn't even SPOKEN to Gabe to know about his job change! SHE WAS ADAMANT to Tess in the opener that she WAS NOT ready.
BUT Cat's heart BREAKS seeing how much Vincent seemingly loved Tori. THE CAMERA FOCUSES ON her face as she sees Vincent in the cell. IT IS ONLY RIGHT after that where Cat decides to start a relationship with Gabe.
Season 2 is ALL about a Failure to Communicate on a grand scale.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Nov 14, 2016 18:38:00 GMT -5
MY THEORY on How Vincent was able to "break" the Tori Beast-Amplification Spell:
First, you HAVE to remember that Vincent was at his MOST vulnerable state in 207/208. He had found out that his "noble government missions" were nothing more than Reynolds' cover-ups for his bad deeds and help with Muirfield's illicit experiments. Vincent also couldn't explain or have much sympathy for Tori's father's death, which was concerning to Cat. Furthermore, THAT mishap and Reynolds FURTHER manipulation of Vincent by convincing him that he was not "good enough" for Cat basically enhanced an ALREADY tense situation with Cat.
So Vincent finds himself with FAR more in common with Tori, who feels like the haunted and hunted outcast. ADD that with finding out that REYNOLDS was responsible for everything ON TOP of Cat seemingly CHOOSING Reynolds over him. Vincent was ALREADY so vulnerable AND RAGE CONSUMED, that Tori just was the TIPPING POINT.
And Cat's nearly killing him convinced Vincent that he COULD NOT trust Cat. Even in 209, we, the viewers, still see how Vincent REALLY wants Cat although he is still so angry that he can't admit that. Vincent is basically ISOLATED as a result of the whole Reynolds thing, with Tori being there 24/7. SO THE BEAST AMPLIFICATION effect just basically goes into overdrive.
DESPITE the above, Vincent does NOT get together with Tori, as we later learn from the 210 outtakes, romantically UNTIL 210, only AFTER he sees Cat KISSING someone in a bar. Vincent basically wants to PROVE to himself that he is OVER Cat, so he kisses Tori and later (clearly) starts sleeping with her.
At the time, the relationship seemingly makes perfect sense, at least to Vincent. He is isolated, angry, vulnerable, AND ALONE. PLUS--he is seemingly CONVINCED that he CAN'T TRUST CAT, something that he SAYS in 211.
THEN YOU HAVE 211's "Held Hostage." FOR THE FIRST TIME, Vincent sees how USELESS Tori can actually be. She gets knocked out in the precinct and is basically a NON-ENTITY during the whole Hostage situation. And ONCE VINCENT HOLDS THE GEM rather than having Tori wear it (which EXPLAINS how Tori was able to do the whole social scene and get photographed by newspapers since she was kept "calm" while wearing the gem herself), TORI IS ALSO UNCONSCIOUS AND NOT ABLE TO AFFECT VINCENT.
You THEN have Vincent actually LISTEN to Cat's arguments for HELPING PEOPLE, which ends up resonating with Vincent, ONCE HE HAS HELD the gem long enough (and had Tori out of the picture). Vincent finds that he CAN TRUST CAT as well as WORK SEEMLESSLY with CAT to HELP PEOPLE. Which REMINDS Vincent of TRULY WHO he used to be.
And Vincent then has THAT MOMENT in the heat of the fight with Cat. HE AUTOMATICALLY and INATELY trusts her when she tells him to actually throw the gem away. CAT REALIZES the gem's effect. And Vincent IMMEDIATELY trusts her, even without her having time to explain her reasoning. And then Vincent LOOKS INTO HER EYES on the floor, and it is ALL over. You just SEE that Vincent and Cat have RECONNECTED, even if both are unwilling to recognize it.
Vincent feels guilty and won't dump Tori right away, since he HAD started a relationship with her. THAT is why he chooses NOT to go to Tess' party. BUT it is only a MATTER OF TIME from then forward---Vincent has had a TASTE of reconnecting with Cat, and he CAN'T let it go, even if he keeps harping on about "finally moving on" once the gem crisis is settled.
BY 212, VINCENT KNOWS inside that he WANTS Cat back---THAT is why he AVOIDS Tori's direct question about whether or not he wants Cat back. Vincent RECOGNIZES the beast amplification effect on some level, and he breaks up with Tori in 212 after the awkward scene in the Gentleman's Club. Vincent DOESN'T understand or relate to Tori. He REALIZES this and GOES BACK INSIDE to TALK to Cat. Vincent is clearly fishing around to see just HOW Cat sees their relationship at this time. UNKNOWINGLY, POOR CAT DOES NOT REALIZE WHAT VINCENT ASKS HER WHEN HE BLURTS OUT IF THEY ARE "JUST FRIENDS," AND Cat replies that it is better than enemies.
It is Tori's DEATH that ultimately keeps VinCat further apart, as Vincent REALIZES THAT HIS WRONG CHOICES HAVE LED directly to someone's death, AND HE REALIZES THAT HE COULD NOT TAKE CAT'S DEATH. And he feels "unworthy" of Cat BECAUSE of the wrong decisions he made surrounding Tori. SO VINCENT DOESN'T SPEAK UP AND IN FACT ENCOURAGES CAT TO PURSUE GABE, when ALL Cat wanted WAS FOR VINCENT TO DO WHAT HE DID IN 215 and TALK HER OUT OF IT!!! Cat very very clearly seeks Vincent's "counsel" in 212 because she WANTS him to talk her out of dating Gabe. But Vincent's seeming to WANT her to pursue Gabe only CONFIRMS Cat's belief that Vincent is over her. So she decides to date Gabe, in the hopes of falling in love with someone else and ending the pain AS VINCENT had seemed to do with Tori.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Nov 14, 2016 18:49:51 GMT -5
The tragic mishaps of Season 2 are meant to show how wounded people are often vulnerable enough to do ANYTHING to end the pain following trauma. So they think that "new patterns" will somehow fix things. Again, bad rebound relationships are what result.
We are supposed to sympathize with VinCat in realizing their pain and desperation to end it. Each is isolated and comes under the influence of the wrong people who do NOT have their best interests at heart. BUT both Gabe and Tori SEEM sympathetic, FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW, in that BOTH have been VICTIMS as children of those that were SUPPOSED to be adults and help them.
Wrongs done to children produce inherently selfish and self-serving adults, as Tori and Gabe both prove. BUT BECAUSE they were originally victims, BOTH VINCENT AND CAT, who WANT TO SAVE PEOPLE, fall victim to trying to "save" these individuals through a redemptive relationship AND by giving them the LOVE previously denied to them.
But it FAILS in that a) Vincent and Cat never have any true LOVE to give, since they REMAIN in love with one another, no matter how much they fight it and b) Gabe and Tori are BEYOND true redemption, because of circumstances AND THEIR OWN CHOICES. Tori acts without thinking while Gabe reacts according to his own selfish interests once Cat seems beyond his reach. He will NOT accept that he can lose after having had a childhood surrounded by loss.
SO I GET WHY both Vincent and Cat fall vulnerable to trying to "save" Gabe and Tori through an intimate relationship. After all, Vincent and Catherine were ultimately SAVED and MADE WHOLE by having a relationship with EACH OTHER. But it all comes to naught with Gabe and Tori BECAUSE these are NOT the people that Vincent and Catherine are meant to be with. VinCat is DESTINED to be together, even when they themselves don't yet realize or acknowledge it.
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Post by joyabeast on Nov 15, 2016 2:41:06 GMT -5
Reading your explaination of s2 makes me like it a bit more than before. Even though I knew that it was hard to watch s2 during 206-212. I could see Cat and Gabe toghter because I like Sendil and I wanted his character to be a nice person. I hated how the show handled his character.
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Post by AlisongladaboutSeason4 on Nov 16, 2016 18:17:27 GMT -5
Yes, there are a lot of examples of characters NOT saying how they really felt in Season 2, and this lead to a lot of mis-conceptions. I agree with a lot of what you say alwayscrazedbabtfan, one thing I will always believe is that Vincent and Cat never stopped being in love with each other and that is why the anger, betrayal and heart-break kept them apart for all those episodes. They had to heal before they could re-connect. I agree with you that it began during the Precinct siege, when Vincent realised Cat had turned the lights off to protect him from being exposed and Cat realised Vincent hadn't left with the gem but came forward to save her, Tess and the other hostages. It's the first time Gabe (whose not stupid) realises he has something to worry about and starts to get all jealous and possessive over Cat. It annoys him that Vincent went in to save her while he stood on the sidelines, as usual.
A couple of points brought up in this discussion - Tori was NOT the only beast Vincent met that he wanted to protect and not kill. He tried to help Jacob Sutter, the first beast made by Sam Landon and who was eventually killed by Cat and he did save Xavier (the second Sam Landon beast who had the explosives strapped to him). He also tried to reason with Zach, his old army buddy, before he realised Zach was too far gone and was going to try to kill Cat, so he had no choice but to take him out. In fact, the only beasts Vincent has tried to Kill were the ones Reynolds set him onto and, as we know, Vincent had been brainwashed and indoctrinated to follow orders. Oh and supercharged Liam, of course.
One other thing - Although I am no lover of Tori, on her death bed she did at least TRY to atone for coming between Cat and Vincent by telling Vincent he belonged with Cat. Gabe would NEVER EVER have done the same, so I find it hard to really hate her although I do hate the effect she had on the plot. Gabe was definately the more selfish and manipulative. Tori was just lonely and sad. She lost her mum and dad and due to her dad being so over-protective, she had no friends and no life so she clung to Vincent as the only person who had anything in common with her. It must have been heart-braking to know that even though he was with her, he really wanted to be with Cat, so you really have to feel a little sorry for her, especially taking into consideration how she died.
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