4x12 - No Way Out

[Jewels]

Transcripts are available 

transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=321&t=28538

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

My thoughts on this one.  Just the fact that it is the next to last episode ever was painful.  With that said, we deserved MUCH better.

For the next-to-last ever episode, I didn't want a bulk of it to be Vincent being tortured.  Especially this close to 9/11 in the US.  It was a slap in the face to imply that far too many soldiers go this route of bitterness, etc.  I KNOW it is just supposed to be a television show, but I didn't like that whole thing coming this close to the 15th anniversary. The memorial scene was supposed to make up for it, but that whole torture scene was everything that reportedly/allegedly is wrong about the interrogation methods for anyone that gets classified a "terrorist."  And in Vincent's case, it was dead wrong.  (I know you can't just tip-toe around certain issues JUST because it is September.  Plus, they would NOT have known when this episode would have aired, since it was filmed around last October.  But it just BOTHERED me for it to come out now.  OR MAYBE it was seeing Vincent tortured in that way.  Jay made you BELIEVE it was real, and my disgust and need to vomit was most likely induced due to seeing such a beloved character tortured.)

And HOW obvious was Braxton in DELIBERATELY making that "supposed" second apartment in Vincent's name and everything.  And the fact that DHS and law enforcement did NOT have this critical apartment ROPED OFF AND GUARDED.  Because it IS supposed to be a Crime Scene.  So Braxton can just come and go as he pleased?

Before I go further, I HAVE to say the following:  Jay's and KK's performances were PHENOMENAL.  They BOTH deserve Emmy nominations and wins for emotionally running the gamut in their scenes.  KK seemingly emotionally stunted in jail following her come-apart at her mother's old grave.  And the fact that she still DOESN'T have so much resolved and NEVER will.  And the fact that she and Vincent BOTH feel so driven to make up for the Sins of Others.  KK just NAILED that graveyard scene.  Yes, Nicole noticeably cried, but she just did NOT have the same range as KK.  (BUT I didn't like the rather poor editing of that scene.  They clearly spliced multiple takes and didn't cover the fact up.  BATB deserves more.)

But Cat being tortured over her mother at that time, while somewhat understandable, seemed wrong when Vincent was lost to them and most likely suffering.  I would have rather seen Cat agonizing over what IS, not over what was and can't be changed.  YET THE WRITERS were going for "resolution," so they chose NOW for her to go through this stuff.  Rush to the end and all that.  But it ticked me off and kept me from FULLY appreciating KK's heart-wrenching performance.

And Jay was INCREDIBLE in playing the agonized Innocent Man.  The way Vincent is basically suffering BUT still trying to get INFORMATION and make sense of what has happened, all while continuously being battered, sleep-deprived, and food deprived (based on what that head guy was saying).  BUT Vincent supposedly doesn't have self-healing properties in his current form, so I was confused how he would NOT have broken bones.

As emotionally torn-up as Vincent was at times, I expected more from that Reunion with Cat.  ESPECIALLY because of what had happened to him. 

And ENOUGH with the montages if ALL you are going to show me is the same play of SCENES from S1-2, with the only other addition of a second from the 2 MINUTES you gave us for VinCat's wedding.  I WOULD HAVE LOVED LOVED LOVED to have scene Vincent remembering a VINCAT MOMENT that us viewers had NEVER seen before.  A beautiful flashback to maybe some troubling time in the past OR EVEN this season when before the passion begins, they have one of their beautiful sweet moments that have SO been missing in recent seasons.  And how something Cat would have said would have resonated with Vincent now.  But no.  We CAN'T get NEW SCENES, even when the show is almost gone for good. 

So YES, I was sadly ticked off by a large part of this episode.  Even though I really DID see where they were TRYING to go with this one--they wanted to show how VinCat have come FULL CIRCLE.  Which, quite frankly, is SAD, as the "full circle" seems to imply they were meant for hardship and to suffer and to CONSTANTLY BERATE those that came before them and hurt them.  I almost felt that the Writers WERE trying to tell Vincent that he SHOULD feel and react in the way that they claim.  THE POINT OF ALL THAT WAS TO SHOW HOW VINCAT'S LOVE SAVED VINCENT from completely succombing to PAIN and resentment.

But wasn't that the WHOLE POINT of episode 405?  I GOT THE POINT THEN, I didn't need it re-iterated in this horrifying manner for Vincent is the next-to-last episode.  Just how I feel on this one.  THE WRITERS NEEDED MORE TIME TO GET OUT THESE CONCEPTS then they got.  The were trying to throw Plot in with emotions and coming full circle, and I feel they did a poor job AND REUSED HOW MANY SCENES WHEN THEY NEEDED THE EPISODE TIME AS-IS.  How much time did they show Vincent (OR CLEARLY JAY's stunt double! That REALLY irked me when you could SEE it wasn't Jay for part of it--I mean COME ON, don't they teach you in film school about how to AT LEAST make it APPEAR to really be your main character doing the shot?).

Yes, PLEASE understand that there were things I appreciated out of the episode.  But I felt Beasties (and VinCat) deserved more.  And sadly, I DIDN'T want JT/Tess or JT/Heather scenes last night.  I wanted FAR more emphasis on VinCat.  I LOVED that VinCat chose a repeat visit to the 9/11 Memorial, BUT AGAIN it was clear that they were JUST reusing footage and basically shooting against a green screen, and that kept me from being able to fully appreciate the scene.  IT WAS TOO OBVIOUS about some of the points being made in the episode and repetitive dialogue.  I don't like knowing what is fixing to come out of people's mouths.  AND TESS' REPEATED SMIRKS at inappropriate times of dialogue were somehow left in.  I kept feeling that you could TELL the cast was frankly LAUGHING behind the scenes at things, so even they were bothered by the way things played out.  But HEY, I guess they needed the laughs after having to do some of those OTHER scenes in the episode, so I can't blame them all for that.  But I CAN blame a director that seemingly cut the footage that way or left a scene badly edited.  I KNOW that they just wanted to finish and get out of there, but TRY people.  Really.  The CW should have paid out MORE money for the RIGHT things to have been done at Series end.  But it is what it is. 

But I am TRULY bummed to hear so many cast members and crew saying 412 is better and more romantic than 413.  That just says EVERYTHING to me.  Becuase the only REAL romance in this episode was in showing PAST scenes.  And rehashing PAST moments AND gripes.  Burning down the remaining time by showing flashbacks that we have SEEN over and over and over and over again in montages.  GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW before the series goes away forever.  Is that really too much to ask for?    

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

Did LOVE the fact that Vincent conjured Cat while in his medieval cave cell in order to work out the IMPOSSIBLE plot holes to figure out that Braxton was really alive. 

But how WAS Braxton really alive?  He was SUPPOSED to be IN CUSTODY OF DHS?  Are they REALLY so INEPT TO JUST LOSE PRISONERS LIKE VINCENT AND BRAXTON?  AND not know that Braxton was NOT dead?  Didn't he die IN CUSTODY?  So HOW does he get away from HIS cell AND get another body put in the way???  At the same time?  DID HE JUST HAVE BODIES on hand?  (Although from what was gleaned from hearing about Muirfield 3.0, it sounds like Braxton WOULD have had multiple victim bodies to use at his disposal. . . .)

And just WHY did Braxton go SO far???  I mean, hasn't he lost his corporations, etc.?  Did he just stash away a large treasure-trove of cash?  And hadn't he JUST learned of Vincent's existence?  SO HOW was he able to connect so many dots and do SUCH a profile of Vincent to make it be believable?  UGGGHHHH.  This was NOT a "plot twist" but a "plot impossibility."

And I don't EVER remember hearing about this all-consuming powerful Cabal.  WHY OH WHY is it always "the Cabal?"  HOW many tv shows have the great big-bad be an organization by this name? 

And now VinCat have to go SAVE some Cabal member that does NOT deserve to be saved since he was behind the new Muirfield.  However, letting Braxton murder his last remaining co-member is unthinkable as well.  And just WHY did Braxton HAVE to go this route?  Was one of the other Cabal members TRULY going to TALK?  WHY???  It is NOT like DHS would have figured it out or found the connection before. 

I guess the idea is that the LAST person with access to the Beast Formula dies with Braxton OR the New Foreign Guy.  BUT THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE.  Sam WATCHED JT make the formula and then perfected his version, and Sam is still in jail.  PLUS JT is still out there.  So coming full circle seems to mean just repeating putting a New Person in as the SAME OLD bad guy at Muirfield under its continuing incarnations that are JUST as easily blown-away at-will when necessary. 

Sorry, I will attempt to minimalize my grumbling.  I just wanted MORE and something FAR more creative for VinCat, ESPECIALLY since they had to suffer so much for so long for rather-poor undefined bad-guys.  I actually MISS Reynolds.  He made more SENSE and had MORE realistic back story then any of the other badies. 

[bbatb]

Not only do I like both of your posts alwayscrazedbatbfan, I can actually SIGN them. I nodded in agreement while reading. This episode did not do it for me AT ALL.

I am still at a loss exactly HOW Vincent connected the dots that Braxton MUST be alive?

[AlisongladaboutSeason4]

Sept 9, 2016 14:20:53 GMT -5 bbatb said:

Not only do I like both of your posts alwayscrazedbatbfan , I can actually SIGN them. I nodded in agreement while reading. This episode did not do it for me AT ALL.

I am still at a loss exactly HOW Vincent connected the dots that Braxton MUST be alive?

I think it's not crystal clear but my guess is that he had listed people who knew he was a beast and were involved with Muirfield/Graydal on his wall. He had seen all the other's dead bodies but if you remember, there was so little left of Braxton that the only way to identify him was DNA and Dental records, both of which Braxton himself had access to and could plant after the fact. Also, why would the new beast leave Garrus and Ecklund recognisable but mutilate Braxton so much that he could not be recognised. A little too convenient really. Garrus had said that he and Ecklund had set Braxton up to take the blame, once the government found out what they had been doing, so Braxton had a motive to kill them both and frame Vincent. Vincent always had the pieces of the jigsaw and being in that cell, he had time to think about it and he used the Cat hallucination to focus his mind and come up with the only logical explanation. 

[alwayscrazedbatbfan]

I, too, couldn't figure out how Vincent was supposed to figure out that Braxton was alive.  I think Vincent stared at the names so long while asking himself just WHO would want or need all these people dead.  And he then concluded that NO ONE ELSE could have known about the Cabal, especially SINCE DHS COULDN'T even figure it out, other than ONE of the players listed on the wall.  AND VINCENT HAD ACTUALLY SEEN the dead bodies of all the other listed people EXCEPT Braxton.

(STILL, I felt the writers had Vincent LIST the people on the wall BECAUSE they knew people wouldn't remember who people were that were BARELY mentioned or ONLY onscreen for two seconds.) 

But why Braxton?  If you still have one remaining Cabal member that is supposedly still alive, WHY wouldn't it be that person?  However, the writers wanted at least SOMEONE we would have reason to hate, so that left the implausible/impossible deduction that it had to be Braxton. 

I felt letdown, although I couldn't figure HOW we still had enough time left to find some supposed "new beast."  I guess Vincent figured out that Braxton created the whole "spectre" of a New Beast UNTIL he could find an ACTUAL beast to blame the crimes on!

But this supposedly old guy (Braxton) being able to just SHOOT Heather in public?  Without a WHOLE MESS of people on the street seeing him and stopping him???  In mainstream New York City? Seriously?

I'm still most upset that cast and crew are saying this episode is "more romantic" than 413.  When 413 is the end of it all.  NOT encouraging. 

I would have LOVED an episode that was JUST a flashforward deal, but we now are left at the end of 412 with basically 43 minutes left to find Braxton AND resolve whether VinCat gets away with OR without DHS consent, assuming they live.  (Which they BETTER.  I did not just devote four years of my life to watching and LOVING AND ADORING these characters only to see them supposedly discredited publicly and killed.  No way.  No how.)

[jefferen]

I don't want to complain, bc any Jay&KK interaction is all I need, but I agree with a lot that you both have said. For the hype, I think it did fall flat. It definitely wasn't what I was expecting. The flash backs didn't annoy me that much I understood their point and I wasn't even expecting to see "new 'material" in the flashback as to me, I think it would've felt out of place if we did see it bc we hadn't ever seen it in the series. What annoyed me was the reusing of the 9/11 memorial scene. I get the idea of going to the memorial which was nice, but why couldn't they have atleast maybe just got the back drop and then filmed the scene a bit differently with a green screen, different angles and different clothes for KK&Jay. And you obviously could notice the different lengths in KKs hair.

But at this point, I'm gonna miss this show especially Jaystin too much to really hold a grudge. I'm just hanging on tightly that 413 brings it. I don't expect it all to be resolved, but I definitely need to feel more and resolved as a viewer. I need to be able to have to regrets about how they end the show.

[jefferen]

And the only plausible thing I can think about Braxton being alive is that maybe he is the "invisible beast" too and for whatever reason V doesn't realize it or can't sense it. That too me is the only way that this could make sense.

[AlisongladaboutSeason4]

Sept 9, 2016 10:16:22 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

My thoughts on this one.  Just the fact that it is the next to last episode ever was painful.  With that said, we deserved MUCH better.

For the next-to-last ever episode, I didn't want a bulk of it to be Vincent being tortured.  Especially this close to 9/11 in the US.  It was a slap in the face to imply that far too many soldiers go this route of bitterness, etc.  I KNOW it is just supposed to be a television show, but I didn't like that whole thing coming this close to the 15th anniversary. The memorial scene was supposed to make up for it, but that whole torture scene was everything that reportedly/allegedly is wrong about the interrogation methods for anyone that gets classified a "terrorist."  And in Vincent's case, it was dead wrong.  (I know you can't just tip-toe around certain issues JUST because it is September.  Plus, they would NOT have known when this episode would have aired, since it was filmed around last October.  But it just BOTHERED me for it to come out now.  OR MAYBE it was seeing Vincent tortured in that way.  Jay made you BELIEVE it was real, and my disgust and need to vomit was most likely induced due to seeing such a beloved character tortured.)

And HOW obvious was Braxton in DELIBERATELY making that "supposed" second apartment in Vincent's name and everything.  And the fact that DHS and law enforcement did NOT have this critical apartment ROPED OFF AND GUARDED.  Because it IS supposed to be a Crime Scene.  So Braxton can just come and go as he pleased?

Before I go further, I HAVE to say the following:  Jay's and KK's performances were PHENOMENAL.  They BOTH deserve Emmy nominations and wins for emotionally running the gamut in their scenes.  KK seemingly emotionally stunted in jail following her come-apart at her mother's old grave.  And the fact that she still DOESN'T have so much resolved and NEVER will.  And the fact that she and Vincent BOTH feel so driven to make up for the Sins of Others.  KK just NAILED that graveyard scene.  Yes, Nicole noticeably cried, but she just did NOT have the same range as KK.  (BUT I didn't like the rather poor editing of that scene.  They clearly spliced multiple takes and didn't cover the fact up.  BATB deserves more.)

But Cat being tortured over her mother at that time, while somewhat understandable, seemed wrong when Vincent was lost to them and most likely suffering.  I would have rather seen Cat agonizing over what IS, not over what was and can't be changed.  YET THE WRITERS were going for "resolution," so they chose NOW for her to go through this stuff.  Rush to the end and all that.  But it ticked me off and kept me from FULLY appreciating KK's heart-wrenching performance.

And Jay was INCREDIBLE in playing the agonized Innocent Man.  The way Vincent is basically suffering BUT still trying to get INFORMATION and make sense of what has happened, all while continuously being battered, sleep-deprived, and food deprived (based on what that head guy was saying).  BUT Vincent supposedly doesn't have self-healing properties in his current form, so I was confused how he would NOT have broken bones.

As emotionally torn-up as Vincent was at times, I expected more from that Reunion with Cat.  ESPECIALLY because of what had happened to him. 

And ENOUGH with the montages if ALL you are going to show me is the same play of SCENES from S1-2, with the only other addition of a second from the 2 MINUTES you gave us for VinCat's wedding.  I WOULD HAVE LOVED LOVED LOVED to have scene Vincent remembering a VINCAT MOMENT that us viewers had NEVER seen before.  A beautiful flashback to maybe some troubling time in the past OR EVEN this season when before the passion begins, they have one of their beautiful sweet moments that have SO been missing in recent seasons.  And how something Cat would have said would have resonated with Vincent now.  But no.  We CAN'T get NEW SCENES, even when the show is almost gone for good. 

So YES, I was sadly ticked off by a large part of this episode.  Even though I really DID see where they were TRYING to go with this one--they wanted to show how VinCat have come FULL CIRCLE.  Which, quite frankly, is SAD, as the "full circle" seems to imply they were meant for hardship and to suffer and to CONSTANTLY BERATE those that came before them and hurt them.  I almost felt that the Writers WERE trying to tell Vincent that he SHOULD feel and react in the way that they claim.  THE POINT OF ALL THAT WAS TO SHOW HOW VINCAT'S LOVE SAVED VINCENT from completely succombing to PAIN and resentment.

But wasn't that the WHOLE POINT of episode 405?  I GOT THE POINT THEN, I didn't need it re-iterated in this horrifying manner for Vincent is the next-to-last episode.  Just how I feel on this one.  THE WRITERS NEEDED MORE TIME TO GET OUT THESE CONCEPTS then they got.  The were trying to throw Plot in with emotions and coming full circle, and I feel they did a poor job AND REUSED HOW MANY SCENES WHEN THEY NEEDED THE EPISODE TIME AS-IS.  How much time did they show Vincent (OR CLEARLY JAY's stunt double! That REALLY irked me when you could SEE it wasn't Jay for part of it--I mean COME ON, don't they teach you in film school about how to AT LEAST make it APPEAR to really be your main character doing the shot?).

Yes, PLEASE understand that there were things I appreciated out of the episode.  But I felt Beasties (and VinCat) deserved more.  And sadly, I DIDN'T want JT/Tess or JT/Heather scenes last night.  I wanted FAR more emphasis on VinCat.  I LOVED that VinCat chose a repeat visit to the 9/11 Memorial, BUT AGAIN it was clear that they were JUST reusing footage and basically shooting against a green screen, and that kept me from being able to fully appreciate the scene.  IT WAS TOO OBVIOUS about some of the points being made in the episode and repetitive dialogue.  I don't like knowing what is fixing to come out of people's mouths.  AND TESS' REPEATED SMIRKS at inappropriate times of dialogue were somehow left in.  I kept feeling that you could TELL the cast was frankly LAUGHING behind the scenes at things, so even they were bothered by the way things played out.  But HEY, I guess they needed the laughs after having to do some of those OTHER scenes in the episode, so I can't blame them all for that.  But I CAN blame a director that seemingly cut the footage that way or left a scene badly edited.  I KNOW that they just wanted to finish and get out of there, but TRY people.  Really.  The CW should have paid out MORE money for the RIGHT things to have been done at Series end.  But it is what it is. 

But I am TRULY bummed to hear so many cast members and crew saying 412 is better and more romantic than 413.  That just says EVERYTHING to me.  Becuase the only REAL romance in this episode was in showing PAST scenes.  And rehashing PAST moments AND gripes.  Burning down the remaining time by showing flashbacks that we have SEEN over and over and over and over again in montages.  GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW before the series goes away forever.  Is that really too much to ask for?    

Did they actually say this was more romantic than 4x13? I know a few said they liked this one better. It was certainly VERY emotional. I was very close to tears on more than one occasion during the course of the episode. The acting, especially by Jay was heartbreaking. I wanted to bust him out of that cell myself and make the emotional abuse stop. The guy that was interrogating him was very well played and the scripting of the things that he was saying to Vincent were truly traumatizing both for Vincent and us beasties watching. I will struggle to re-watch that scene. The scene at the grave with Cat & Heather was very emotional too and beautifully played by Kristin & Nicole. 

[jefferen]

Sept 9, 2016 14:50:10 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

I, too, couldn't figure out how Vincent was supposed to figure out that Braxton was alive.  I think Vincent stared at the names so long while asking himself just WHO would want or need all these people dead.  And he then concluded that NO ONE ELSE could have known about the Cabal, especially SINCE DHS COULDN'T even figure it out, other than ONE of the players listed on the wall.  AND VINCENT HAD ACTUALLY SEEN the dead bodies of all the other listed people EXCEPT Braxton.

(STILL, I felt the writers had Vincent LIST the people on the wall BECAUSE they knew people wouldn't remember who people were that were BARELY mentioned or ONLY onscreen for two seconds.) 

But why Braxton?  If you still have one remaining Cabal member that is supposedly still alive, WHY wouldn't it be that person?  However, the writers wanted at least SOMEONE we would have reason to hate, so that left the implausible/impossible deduction that it had to be Braxton. 

I felt letdown, although I couldn't figure HOW we still had enough time left to find some supposed "new beast."  I guess Vincent figured out that Braxton created the whole "spectre" of a New Beast UNTIL he could find an ACTUAL beast to blame the crimes on!

But this supposedly old guy (Braxton) being able to just SHOOT Heather in public?  Without a WHOLE MESS of people on the street seeing him and stopping him???  In mainstream New York City? Seriously?

I'm still most upset that cast and crew are saying this episode is "more romantic" than 413.  When 413 is the end of it all.  NOT encouraging. 

I would have LOVED an episode that was JUST a flashforward deal, but we now are left at the end of 412 with basically 43 minutes left to find Braxton AND resolve whether VinCat gets away with OR without DHS consent, assuming they live.  (Which they BETTER.  I did not just devote four years of my life to watching and LOVING AND ADORING these characters only to see them supposedly discredited publicly and killed.  No way.  No how.)

.

I knew this was the episode the cast&crew were saying was the episode and better than 413, but i never read that it was supposed to be more romantic? This episode was not romantic at all. Lol

[joyabeast]

I was crying many times during this episode. The way they were torturing Vincent was just heart breaking. Definitely would have loved it if Cat cried when Vincent came back. This whole season the plot seems a little too far fetched. Hoping for a romantic moment between VinCat.

[BeastieBoy]

Sept 9, 2016 14:58:47 GMT -5 jefferen said:

Sept 9, 2016 14:50:10 GMT -5 alwayscrazedbatbfan said:

I, too, couldn't figure out how Vincent was supposed to figure out that Braxton was alive.  I think Vincent stared at the names so long while asking himself just WHO would want or need all these people dead.  And he then concluded that NO ONE ELSE could have known about the Cabal, especially SINCE DHS COULDN'T even figure it out, other than ONE of the players listed on the wall.  AND VINCENT HAD ACTUALLY SEEN the dead bodies of all the other listed people EXCEPT Braxton.

(STILL, I felt the writers had Vincent LIST the people on the wall BECAUSE they knew people wouldn't remember who people were that were BARELY mentioned or ONLY onscreen for two seconds.) 

But why Braxton?  If you still have one remaining Cabal member that is supposedly still alive, WHY wouldn't it be that person?  However, the writers wanted at least SOMEONE we would have reason to hate, so that left the implausible/impossible deduction that it had to be Braxton. 

I felt letdown, although I couldn't figure HOW we still had enough time left to find some supposed "new beast."  I guess Vincent figured out that Braxton created the whole "spectre" of a New Beast UNTIL he could find an ACTUAL beast to blame the crimes on!

But this supposedly old guy (Braxton) being able to just SHOOT Heather in public?  Without a WHOLE MESS of people on the street seeing him and stopping him???  In mainstream New York City? Seriously?

I'm still most upset that cast and crew are saying this episode is "more romantic" than 413.  When 413 is the end of it all.  NOT encouraging. 

I would have LOVED an episode that was JUST a flashforward deal, but we now are left at the end of 412 with basically 43 minutes left to find Braxton AND resolve whether VinCat gets away with OR without DHS consent, assuming they live.  (Which they BETTER.  I did not just devote four years of my life to watching and LOVING AND ADORING these characters only to see them supposedly discredited publicly and killed.  No way.  No how.)

.

I knew this was the episode the cast&crew were saying was the episode and better than 413, but i never read that it was supposed to be more romantic? This episode was not romantic at all. Lol

Right. I never read anywhere that they said more romantic. Just that some (cast/crew) liked it better than 13, for whatever reasons.

It was a very emotional episode, that's what I liked about it. But it wasn't VinCat emotional, so I get where many maybe coming from. I was disappointed by the lack of "new" VinCat emotional scenes too. But I still thought the episode was great.

As for the plot holes, yup, can't disagree either. But I just don't let those kinds of things bother me anymore. 

[bbatb]

Sept 9, 2016 14:54:40 GMT -5 jefferen said:

And the only plausible thing I can think about Braxton being alive is that maybe he is the "invisible beast" too and for whatever reason V doesn't realize it or can't sense it. That too me is the only way that this could make sense.

Since I am one of the 'spoiled' people in this forum and have faithfully transcribed all the videos that were put up in the Sensitive Spoiler Section, I already knew that Braxton was not dead. But we did NOT know how he managed to fake his own death.

So, a few weeks back I already wrote a post in the Sensitive Spoiler Section that I was pretty sure that Braxton had injected himself (à la ADA from hell) and had become the New Beast. That way he could become invisible and get out of jail, kill and prep somebody, plant that body and get out of there again himself without being seen. It is still not 100% accurate, because even being invisible would NOT get him out of his cell - which presumably would be locked. And if he broke the door, well, then they would know, right. But THAT is just a minor detail in the BATB world.

But now Vincent says: 'There is no beast'. WTH!! So, now we are to believe that this way-over-sixty-years-old Braxton is strong enough to kill Ecklund and Garrus with his bare hands? Even with the element of surprise THAT is hard to believe.

Then I also question Vincent's visions, because he SAW a beast kill Ecklund in his garage. Granted, they only showed us a very fuzzy vision of a 'creature' killing Ecklund, but it still means that Vincent was wrong.  OTOH if Braxton is NOT a beast, it would explain why Vincent did not recognize him as a beast.

So far, this plot is all over the place and the pieces do not fit together. As always, I am not REALLY complaining (well just a little bit, LOL) and I actually like discussing all these plot holes in good fun. And as BeastieBoy says, you cannot let it bother you too much: it is what it is! And of course I am still enjoying our couple. I agree that their acting range was given a great platform in this episode.

[BeastieBoy]

Sept 8, 2016 20:08:58 GMT -5 Suzieq ❤️ Beastie said:

Sept 8, 2016 19:59:24 GMT -5 pippin said:

You'll be leading the pack now. And KK is live blind tweeting!

Yeah, but everyone will be tweeting. I will still be here!!

Here we go PEEPS..........................

JT and Heather in the apartment..............."Defrag. this thing??" Oh JT you computer Geek!! JT wants VinCat to bail out of the country. Leave to save themselves.

Cat in Orange is the new Black jail cell. FBI lady questioning Cat about all the killings of Vincent. There's a plan?? Who??

Domestic Terrorism? Cat knows nothing! Cat is FREEEEEEEE! What??

Heather got Cat out? DHS thinks Vincent killed Braxton, etc. and not the "invisible" Beast!

Yes....Heather Kyle is a Jerk!. JT sold his computers and stuff to get Cat out...........Awwwwwww! Tess says "love you" to JT! Oh for heaven's sake BATB, give up the JTess !

Cat is with Tess at Tess' office...........Talking about the other "Beast" and how DHS thinking Vincent did all the killings. Cat questioning what they are doing, it always turns out wrong. Vincent is being set up.

Vincent in some yucky cell. Names on wall. He is in chains. Men come to the cell and escort him out!

We're back..............Vincent being interrogated by some guy who thinks Vincent has killed all those people. He is accusing Vincent. He is asking Vincent who is the "target". He knows about the super Soldier stuff and some dude is injecting Vincent with some "green" stuff and Vincent is "beasting out".

Cat and Tess...............Tess wants to help Vincent and Cat. If this "plan" works she wants VinCat to get on that plane.

JT and Heather at the hospital. Heather upset with Kyle..........she is going to "kick his nuts". LOL

Tess is at DHS?? Tess is snooping. Uh Oh..........Tess is caught by the Boss DHS Lady. Boss Lady thinks Cat knows something. Threatening Tess. Tess looks at interesting map that has Vincent's name.

Back to Vincent getting beat up by dude. Flashback to Vincent in hospital before Muirfield. Dude is telling Vincent he wanted to be a super soldier. He is making Vincent angry. Making him feel bad and angry. Flashbacks to killings by Vincent. It is awful actually. Vincent says something but I couldn't understand. This is a very powerful scene. Vincent remembering all the times he murdered or hurt someone........all the scenes from previous episode. Sad.

Came back late..........Cat and Tess are in some apartment that has lots of pics of the people killed. Like the "other guy" is setting Vincent up making it look like he did it.

I guess the injection given to Vincent was more like a tranq. enough to subdue Vincent and let the guy beat him to a pulp. Vincent thrown back into the cell. The guy still wants to know who the Target is? Dude threatens to use Catherine if he has to to make Vincent to talk. Vincent in the cell with lots of Vincent and Catherine sweet scenes from Season 1...........AMP scene, etc. Wedding. So Sad........again!

JT, Tess, Heather and Cat ............talk........

Cat and Heather at Vanessa's grave? What......did they move her grave? Or is this the old site that didn't have a body in it? Confused

Kristin doing what she does best .........emotional scenes! WOW! Sad scene AGAIN! Cat talking to Heather at the grave about blaming herself about going too far trying to do the right thing. She wouldn't quit.......she felt guilty about her mom's death. Sorry, I can't even describe this scene......it is so sad. Cat is crying,......hugging Heather. Beautiful scene.

Going to watch the rest ......be back later.

JT and Tess scene...........I am still confused who they are looking for? I missed something, oh well, have to rematch.

Vincent is hallucinating....Cat is with him, asking him not to give up and think about who could be setting him up. Vincent "wakes up" he looks at the names he scratched on the wall of the cell. Braxton, Hill, Zhao.......trying to understand. Then he focuses on Braxton. He gets a realization?? He looks at the ceiling and sees a Drop of Water. He moves the cell bed and stands on it. He punches the ceiling until it opens and water gushes in. Next, you see Vincent swimming out the cell and up to the surface of the water. Nice scene. Good camera work. Vincent goes to morgue to see Braxton. Then he goes to the Gents Club with Heather, JT, Tess and Cat. Braxton is still ALIVE!!!!!! He faked his death??? What?

Cat and Vincent scene in the bathroom............lots of talk. Cat asked what they did to him. Vincent said they didn't break him thanks to her.

Cat and Vincent in her "office"...........Braxton is coming and planting stuff on a board. Vincent talks about his brothers and Cat's Mom. Interesting that they show pics of the terror attack on 9/11!! Since the 15th anniversary is Sunday! Very sad.
Vincent is trying to "track" Braxton and 'sees' that Braxton has been coming in and out of the building. Somehow he hasn't been seen. Heather is outside and calls to Cat to say that she sees Braxton coming out of the building. How convenient?? Tess is there too.

Braxton puts on a hat.........really, couldn't he make a better disguise? Heather follows Braxton down the crowded street. Cat and Vincent come out the door. Heather faces Braxton and he shoots her. Vincent and Cat run to see Heather on the ground bleeding on her side. Vincent takes off his jacket and tells Cat to put pressure on it. Heather will be OK. Cat tells Vincent to go so he doesn't get caught. Vincent tells Tess to go after Braxton and he does too.
Ambos at the scene for Heather.

Hospital scene with Cat and Heather. Heather will be fine. Heather feels bad about Kyle exposing Vincent, etc. Cat tells Heather to not blame Kyle.

Bar scene with Tess and JT.........*eye-roll*...........cutsie, flirty talk between them. Who cares.......I mean I am so over these two, but it is obvious they will give it another go in the romance department at some point. At least that is what I got from it.

I knew it.............New York skyline with the 2 blue beams of light denoting the Twin Towers. Nighttime.......Vincent and Cat replicate the 9/11 Memorial scene. Cat thinks they should keep moving. Vincent doesn't care if DHS catches him there. He think about his brothers and how all this began and Vanessa. Vincent says they have one last thing to solve. Hug at the corner of the 9/11 Memorial Fountain. Very beautiful.

Credits.

Very emotional episode. I still am confused about Braxton..........was he trying to get rid of all Beasts or start up a new round of Beasts?? Did he buy up the Muirfield files/info?? I guess I haven't paid close attention. Sometime when there is so much exposition, mixed with too much repetition, I just tune out. So, somewhere I have missed a big element of the story. Who were the guys that caught and beat up Vincent?? Was that Braxton's men?? Maybe someone can fill me in.

The episode felt a bit rushed, lots of nice flashbacks, trips down memory lane and then trying to put together all the story pieces. I guess I need to do some serious rewatching.

I really like the way you comment real time while watching live Suzieq ❤️ Beastie . If I were on Eastern time, I would join in with you, but I have to wait hours later until it's my turn to watch live on the West.

Anyway, in response to some of your questions, albeit after the fact...

- Vincent was saying "I am not a monster, I'm not a monster..."

- I'm pretty sure Vanessa's grave was the same one Cat always visited in S1. The old original site, where the body had been moved. Heather doesn't know the body was moved, so that's the only place she'd know to go to find Cat.  Did it look different to you? Looked the same to me.

- About Braxton, I think we're all confused about him. Hopefully it will become less murky in the next ep.

- Those were DHS guys who were torturing Vincent, in the name of Homeland Security, since they believed he was a domestic terrorist. They were not Braxton's men.

[BeastieBoy]

Sept 8, 2016 22:24:25 GMT -5 Vincent Keller said:

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I'm sure our buddy dan will feel vindicated to see that KK shares his own viewpoint!