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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 3:22:43 GMT -5
I noticed tonight that Kristin Kreuk was listed as a Producer of the show. Has that been true all along and I'm just now catching on? I don't think that was true in prior seasons. Reminds me of the final years of Smallville when Welling became Executive Producer and directed a number of episodes. Who could say no? KK has been a producer since the start of S4 and has been (and will be) credited in each S4 episode.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 3:23:32 GMT -5
BTS photo of Max and Jay. No wonder Jay was walking with that limp. I thought it was part of his acting because he got shot.
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Post by Jewels on Jul 1, 2016 3:42:37 GMT -5
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 9:27:29 GMT -5
I absolutely loved this one. For ever so many reasons. It is like the dream gives Vincent a chance to resolve certain things that had previously messed with his head--such as Evan. Vincent was so jealous of him back in the day, especially because Evan could give Cat the truly NORMAL life he never could. Yet Evan could never give Cat answers, and Cat's Mom's case truly HAD consumed her life.
And it reminded me of how even in the early days, Vanessa's case kept Cat and Vincent from getting too close due to the way she badgered him for answers and wanted him to come forward for purposes of the investigation. Cat had her walls back up due to not ever having had anyone truly able to help her put it all in perspective.
And I LOVED how Vincent's deep-down inner-guilt had obviously been stewing about Evan. Because in S1 he and Evan sort of egged one another on, as Vincent and Gabe later would do, over jealousy due to Cat. Neither trusted one another until the end, and by that time, there was no time to have that discussion between the two of them that occurred in the car in the Dream. So Vincent always HAD appreciated Evan's sacrifice for Cat and that he DID put Cat first, in a way Gabe never did. And Vincent got a chance to mull it through that Cat NEVER would have been happy with Evan. She would have TRIED once she realized Evan truly loved her to return those sentiments. But ultimately, he wasn't the love of her life, and she just couldn't truly open up to him or love him, because she had so lost herself.
But I also LOVED Vincent's Dream having Cat just automatically trust him once she knows he saved her. That's the beauty of love---you believe the BEST about the person you loved. And it NEVER was that easy in the past. It took TIME for Cat to trust Vincent, as you see in episode 104 when it nearly breaks Vincent to learn Cat DOES fear that he might hurt her or others. And even then, Vincent was willing to surrender himself to Muirfield because as that silver-tongued agent said, Vincent WAS afraid that he could be a danger to Cat. But by the end of the episode, Cat had entirely decided to trust her gut and accept Vincent as he was.
HERE, Vincent's dream version of Cat automatically goes to that acceptance place once she knows Vincent saved her. And THAT Catherine just automatically accepts then that her place is with Vincent and runs off willingly with him. And just like his Cat in the present, she does everything to ensure Vincent that his presence IS what she wants. Dream Cat doesn't need time to fall in love. So I like Vincent's revisionist history there.
And I admit that I like how Vincent was OBVIOUSLY unresolved about Bob Reynolds as well due to everything that occurred between them. But he realizes that Bob WOULD come around for his daughter and seek to protect her. So Vincent finds common ground with Bob and basically discovers his own separate peace there.
LOVED LOVED the idea that without having had Cat around when he did, JT never would have stumbled upon Vanessa's formula that helped her resolve Vincent's fugue states. So not having Cat around affected Vincent for the worse, even physically. He truly was just a struggling beast, barely holding onto his humanity. And sneaking into zoos to gut animals and eat. EEWWWW.
But would have LOVED to see more episodes in this surreal and dark Dream World. Muirfield was up and strong, so Vincent's mind CLEARLY seems to at least THINK that Muirfield OR PAST connections of some sort are involved in the present-world machinations. Intriguing. Vincent has to be about-dead to secretly wonder if the past is YET AGAIN coming back to haunt him!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 9:36:25 GMT -5
Back to the Vanessa thing---I like how Vincent has resolved her remaining with Muirfield for so long and why HE believes Vanessa broke up with Bob. Cat, herself, is FAR more fuzzy about her mom's good intentions, as we saw last season. The videotape Vanessa made acknowledges that she KNEW she had done wrong, even if it came from a good place. And she wanted the chance to make it right, which she never really got.
But Vincent clearly holds no real ill-will towards Vanessa. You see that through the dream. Vincent has a certain acceptance of his beast abilities when it comes to having had the chance to save Catherine. From THAT angle, Vincent has NO REGRETS. That is the REASON that Vincent doesn't dream himself to be without beast abilities. He clearly WOULD agree to be injected back in the day if doing so would save Catherine. And she would NOT have been saved otherwise. So Vincent's DREAM never questions that Vincent got injected as a result.
So I LOVE what the above says about Vincent. For Cat's sake, he could FORGIVE both what Vanessa AND Bob had done to him. Because it all led him to be able to save Catherine.
And I LOVED LOVED how HAUNTED Vincent was (and obviously still is) from the time Bob took him and he was literally and physically torn from Cat's hand. THAT image kept playing in front of him OVER and OVER again.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 9:53:41 GMT -5
One more thing (at least for now): Vincent's KIDNAPPING comment!!! HeeHeeHEEEEEEE!! When he asks her HOW many times has she been kidnapped DUE to him??? And even in his DREAM, of COURSE Muirfield KIDNAPS her once again!!
And he places the number of Cat's "kidnaps" at 10 or 20. THAT made me start thinking about just HOW MANY times Cat HAS been kidnapped over the past 4 seasons. And it IS about that number!!! (Muirfield tries to kidnap or kill her in the subway in the Pilot, she gets kidnapped by Muirfield in 104, Gabe then kidnaps her at the end of S1, VINCENT then kidnaps her in S2 episode 2, then Cat is for all intents kidnapped in her own precinct due to the necklace in 211, JT gets kidnapped due to beasts in 212, Cat gets kidnapped TWICE technically in 218's "Cat and Mouse" by first the FBI and then the Russian bad guys in order to ultimately try to get Vincent pardoned, Cat is basically held hostage/kidnapped by the cop in "Ever After," Juliana's men kidnap Cat in S3 and then Juliana herself seeks to do so later in the limo, Liam kidnaps Cat. So YEAH, Cat HAS been KIDNAPPED a lot due to beast issues!) So the number of Cat-kidnaps IS at least over TEN!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 10:05:24 GMT -5
But ABOVE ALL ELSE, I LOVED LOVED LOVED LOVED how it basically begins and ends (and begins again) with Catherine for Vincent. She is his EVERYTHING. And he is desperate to get back to her, no matter what, or at least to ease her pain. He WANTS to give her the answers she needs, and he KNOWS that he is the only one that CAN help her make sense of his life. Vincent may not be sure of ANYTHING in the dream world, but he KNOWS he has to approach Catherine and get her to believe him. No matter what he has to go through.
And the moment when he realizes she has been KIDNAPPED again because of him--of COURSE his mind went there, because he had mentioned that to her in the "real" world. THAT was one of the things he blamed himself for. BUT his dream helped remind him that Muirfield would have come after Catherine at any point that she came close to them OR they realized that the beast that saved her HAD an interest in her.
Cat is ALWAYS Vincent's achilles' heel when it comes to being found or revealed. But Vincent NEVER hesitates to get shot or hurt in order to protect Catherine. He NEVER questions these efforts on her behalf. YET he CLEARLY can't resolve his guilt over the REVERSE. But it all comes down to the two of them TOGETHER. Which it takes CATHERINE to ultimately convince him of this.
(ONLY regrets from this episode remain that we don't get the opportunity to really SEE VinCat connect in one of their truly beautiful emotive scenes, either there or here. But again, there wasn't enough TIME for that. REALLY should have been a two-parter, in my opinion. But LOVED IT all the same for everything that it DID give us!!)
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 10:46:30 GMT -5
One more thing (at least for now): Vincent's KIDNAPPING comment!!! HeeHeeHEEEEEEE!! When he asks her HOW many times has she been kidnapped DUE to him??? And even in his DREAM, of COURSE Muirfield KIDNAPS her once again!!
And he places the number of Cat's "kidnaps" at 10 or 20. THAT made me start thinking about just HOW MANY times Cat HAS been kidnapped over the past 4 seasons. And it IS about that number!!! (Muirfield tries to kidnap or kill her in the subway in the Pilot, she gets kidnapped by Muirfield in 104, Gabe then kidnaps her at the end of S1, VINCENT then kidnaps her in S2 episode 2, then Cat is for all intents kidnapped in her own precinct due to the necklace in 211, JT gets kidnapped due to beasts in 212, Cat gets kidnapped TWICE technically in 218's "Cat and Mouse" by first the FBI and then the Russian bad guys in order to ultimately try to get Vincent pardoned, Cat is basically held hostage/kidnapped by the cop in "Ever After," Juliana's men kidnap Cat in S3 and then Juliana herself seeks to do so later in the limo, Liam kidnaps Cat. So YEAH, Cat HAS been KIDNAPPED a lot due to beast issues!) So the number of Cat-kidnaps IS at least over TEN! I was thinking about that number as well. In addition she's been kidnapped twice already this season. The beast hunter in 401 and kinda in the 403 cage match. Not counting this episode's dream kidnapping.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 11:31:58 GMT -5
So Vincent's placing the number of kidnaps at around 20 really IS about accurate!! (I would love to know if Jay ad-libbed anything in this episode. Sounds like there was little to no room for it in a script like this, but still.)
Wonder what the ratings will be like for this episode? I want to really hope that are good, because the buzz was really catching about this episode.
And I felt this episode really WAS unique and special. It allowed S1 and S2 issues to get re-visited in a good way. PLUS, you got to see Vincent's lingering INSECURITIES about his relationship with Cat. Vincent's beast-state still clearly troubles him in that he thinks Cat would somehow be happier without him. I LOVED how the episode entirely communicates from VINCENT'S point of view that they need EACH OTHER and are only whole together. Really hits on the theme of destiny bringing them together and that they are meant to be, no matter what. And this is something that CATHERINE has accepted so wholeheartedly, as you heard her voice to Vincent in S2, episode 1. And while Vincent told her that in 216 when he wanted her back, he never truly BELIEVED that Cat is better with him until he could resolve the conflict in this episode. So it is SO poignant in its simplicity of it being a fever dream that finally ALLOWS Vincent to confront and resolve his relationship fears. Still LOVING this episode.
(And now gives me an excuse to re-watch certain S1 and S2 episodes this weekend before re-watching this eppy!)
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 11:50:39 GMT -5
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Post by pippin on Jul 1, 2016 12:10:27 GMT -5
So Vincent's placing the number of kidnaps at around 20 really IS about accurate!! (I would love to know if Jay ad-libbed anything in this episode. Sounds like there was little to no room for it in a script like this, but still.) Wonder what the ratings will be like for this episode? I want to really hope that are good, because the buzz was really catching about this episode. ; Unfortunately not good. The rounded is still 0.2 but the unrounded was 0.185 and the viewers were at 760,000 down from 828,000 last week. Hopefully this week was just a Nielsen viewer or two taking off Thursday night for a long 4th of July weekend and not a continual downward trend since the unrounded for the S4 premiere was 0.239
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 12:20:13 GMT -5
So Vincent's placing the number of kidnaps at around 20 really IS about accurate!! (I would love to know if Jay ad-libbed anything in this episode. Sounds like there was little to no room for it in a script like this, but still.) Wonder what the ratings will be like for this episode? I want to really hope that are good, because the buzz was really catching about this episode. ; Unfortunately not good. The rounded is still 0.2 but the unrounded was 0.185 and the viewers were at 760,000 down from 828,000 last week. Hopefully this week was just a Nielsen viewer or two taking off Thursday night for a long 4th of July weekend and not a continual downward trend since the unrounded for the S4 premiere was 0.239 The 4th of July holiday and associated summer vacations is probably a factor. But I still believe Canada airing first is another factor. It's just too easy for those who can't wait to find ways to watch the episode a head of time. If the CW's airing was first, I firmly believe the numbers would be different. Furthermore, the viewings off of the CW's website would be substantially higher.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 1, 2016 15:17:38 GMT -5
The ratings thing truly frustrates me, because it seems that Beasties everywhere DID watch the episode, just watched earlier through a link or through Showcase. Clearly, many more Beasties are talking about this one then previous S4 episodes, so I don't buy that there were less viewers. Really frustrating to me as well about the early airing in Canada! Just for ONCE, I wish they would have aired the season at the SAME TIME in both countries in order to SEE if it actually did affect the ratings. Sigh.
This was such a truly WONDERFUL episode that it is frustrating to imagine it not getting the viewership credit that it deserves. (Insert desperately angry ranting emogie thing here that is banging frying pan on whatever CW or other exec decided on letting Canada air episodes first!!)
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Post by swimgrl on Jul 1, 2016 15:55:38 GMT -5
Unfortunately not good. The rounded is still 0.2 but the unrounded was 0.185 and the viewers were at 760,000 down from 828,000 last week. Hopefully this week was just a Nielsen viewer or two taking off Thursday night for a long 4th of July weekend and not a continual downward trend since the unrounded for the S4 premiere was 0.239 The 4th of July holiday and associated summer vacations is probably a factor. But I still believe Canada airing first is another factor. It's just too easy for those who can't wait to find ways to watch the episode a head of time. If the CW's airing was first, I firmly believe the numbers would be different. Furthermore, the viewings off of the CW's website would be substantially higher. Unfortunately I think that is the biggest factor Even being a Canadian myself I still wish we all watched it at the same time.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 1, 2016 17:43:11 GMT -5
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