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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 12:07:03 GMT -5
WRT the music. I have definitely noticed a difference in the music being used. They are doing much more instrumental in the background than songs too. My guess has been that that is directly tied to the budget. Less $ = less access to more mainstream sing rights Sucks because the music in previous seasons has been so good, but my belief is Hittower is doing the best they can with limited resources. That seems to be in line with the greater reuse of wardrobe, and much less elaborate beast make-up. Like when V beasted out on Reynolds in the us Ep. In the past I am positive that that would have been a full-on beast make-up scene, but I think we just got the glowing eyes. Much less expensive to add the eyes in with VFX than do full make-up.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 12:08:44 GMT -5
Geez, sorry for all the typos, must proof-read better before hitting post.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 12:28:50 GMT -5
And I, too, wonder if Vincent's dream-mind isn't trying to TELL him something regarding Muirfield. We certainly know that beast experiments were happening OUTSIDE of Muirfield, as Sam was part of beast "trials" on sick kids. So Muirfield was certainly MORE than just one man. And once that one man was gone, those scientists and agents left might have been hired by others. So it may be that the "big bad" of this season DOES have ties back to Muirfield. Because all of this cloak and dagger stuff sounds straight out of the Muirfield playbook.
WhenWillTHURSDAYbeHERE? The wait is SERIOUSLY killing me! Give ME MORE DEETS on VINCAT interaction, people! For me, the VinCat interaction was good, especially the scene where Cat finally draws Vincent back into the real world. In terms of VinCat-ness, it had the potential to be one of the all time epic greats, but for me, just fell a little short in certain areas: - The rooftop moment seemed like it was going to be a "big moment", but then Cat ruins it by slugging Vincent. Someone else told me that the scene would have been better if Cat simply ran away with mixed emotion. - The other big scene in the dream sequence was the moment Cat realized it was Vincent that saved her 10 years ago. But it was a bit too rushed, since they were in the middle of Muirfiled coming after them full guns a blazing. And I really wanted Cat to say again "you're him". If they had developed those two scenes a little better, it would have rivaled the old S1 VinCat for me. Just like how one can't help but compare 404 to S1's Date Night, it's hard not to compare this episode to S1's Heart of Darkness. HOD had that fantastic VinCat subway scene at the end. Where Vincent finds Cat and tells her that she walking up those steps was the happiest day in his life. While VinCat certainly had their moments in this one, it fell a little short of that level of greatness for me. Ironic how in this episode, that first warehouse meeting that Vincent talks about in 1x18's subway convo, never occurred in this dream sequence - changing everything. For me, another neat little connection to HOD. Still, this was a really great episode, they delivered far more than I expected. Albeit, my bar has been set low and I tried to stay quite spoiler free (like not watching the 405 preview at the end of 404) in order to enjoy this episode to its fullest.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 12:48:35 GMT -5
WRT the music. I have definitely noticed a difference in the music being used. They are doing much more instrumental in the background than songs too. My guess has been that that is directly tied to the budget. Less $ = less access to more mainstream sing rights Sucks because the music in previous seasons has been so good, but my belief is Hittower is doing the best they can with limited resources. That seems to be in line with the greater reuse of wardrobe, and much less elaborate beast make-up. Like when V beasted out on Reynolds in the us Ep. In the past I am positive that that would have been a full-on beast make-up scene, but I think we just got the glowing eyes. Much less expensive to add the eyes in with VFX than do full make-up. Good point about the budget likely being less. (FYI, it's Dondrea that pics the songs, Hitower creates the background music.) Yeah, Vincent's beast mode in many scenes is far less than before. I always think about that Robot Chicken (Cartoon Network) BATB parody, when the nerd's eyes turn yellow and grows fangs, and he says "this seems like a perfectly livable affliction". LOL.
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Post by joyabeast on Jun 27, 2016 12:48:48 GMT -5
I think they didn't want to repeat every great moment fearing fan will say they are just repeating previous scenes.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 12:52:11 GMT -5
Yes, definitely bar set pretty low I am one of those TVEmpress fans I think you defined, rather than a Nick style fan. I will watch until the bitter end, but I am not thrilled with good (or really mediocre) is enough. I still cannot rewatch S3, and I have tried. I know lots of ppl diss S2, and I get it, but at least it still had fire. I am just grateful S4 is an improvement, at least IMO. That's also why I have a really hard time getting behind the save BATB campaign now. I would rather the show go out on a high(er) note in S4, than another season of mediocrity (or worse), with the same people at the helm. *Braces to have things thrown at her now*
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 12:55:20 GMT -5
I think they didn't want to repeat every great moment fearing fan will say they are just repeating previous scenes. Yeah, another good point. You're right, they needed to keep things a little different. And since this is really all just Vincent's dream, I could see how Cat reacting to him as more of a weirdo and punching him could manifest itself as one of his worst fears.
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 12:56:25 GMT -5
That being said, in my dream world the show gets picked-up by Netflix, Jennifer and Sherri come back and the show is given one more season to show what it can do. But sadly, the odds are much higher of pigs flying
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 13:01:21 GMT -5
Yes, definitely bar set pretty low I am one of those TVEmpress fans I think you defined, rather than a Nick style fan. I will watch until the bitter end, but I am not thrilled with good (or really mediocre) is enough. I still cannot rewatch S3, and I have tried. I know lots of ppl diss S2, and I get it, but at least it still had fire. I am just grateful S4 is an improvement, at least IMO. That's also why I have a really hard time getting behind the save BATB campaign now. I would rather the show go out on a high(er) note in S4, than another season of mediocrity (or worse), with the same people at the helm. *Braces to have things thrown at her now* Totally agree! I'd much rather S4 end on a high note, than be brought back from the grave, only to further disappoint. I'm a bit more optimistic now after this episode. If they can keep the momentum and end the series well, I'll be more than satisfied with S4.
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Post by batb217 on Jun 27, 2016 13:16:22 GMT -5
So many thoughts, hard to keep them organizers! Love this ep! Agree that less exposition was a big pro. Just let the story tell the story. You shouldn't have to knock us over the head with what you're trying to tell us. I got a huge laugh when JT hit Vincent over the head with the broom to prove to him it was real, LOL! Also really enjoyed more JT & Vincent time, as others have said. I hope they make that happen more in the remaining episodes (sniff, sniff). For me the weakest moment of the episode was the final hospital scene. I think because it went back to being more stilted again? Clearly that CAN write an episode in more of the original style, so PLEASE, PLEASE can we get more of that?!
I think my favourite moment was when V finally came out of the fugue and he and Cat put their heads together. So sweet, so emotional. I just adored it.Planning to rewatch tonight. There were so many good moment, can't wait to see it again. Yes! I totally agree with you! The last hospital scene (I thought the one with Vincent in bed was very good, emotional, touching etc) kind of reverted back to the old style of episodes. I think it's a shame because the whole episode was SO good. Honestly, I would have much prefered the first hospital scene to have continued so we see Vincent and Catherine having a serious, emotive conversation about what had happened. In that, Vincent could tell her how he saw her with Evan and how she never found the answers she was looking for and Catherine could tell him how scared she was about losing him. That's probably my only issue with the whole episode, other than that, it was great! From what I have seen on twitter, 4x06 and 4x07 continue in this way, so I'm hoping that season 4 will continue to impress.
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Post by joyabeast on Jun 27, 2016 13:52:51 GMT -5
I think that even though s2 had some stupid plots, Vincat still had that sexual tensions,fear of separation and frankly compare to that s3 that zero action. I mean I also didn't want stupid triangle but there should have been some relationship conflict.Sometime this greater purpose thing had started to seems like a curse for our couple, instead of romantic couple they were more like co-worker with no romantic interest with each other. Plus any scene they had got killed by that dull (speaking politely) waredrobe. Glad that atleast wardrobe has improved. Now I seem shallow for talking about cloths all the time but for some reason bad fashion sense on Tv bother me,even though I have zero fashion sense.
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Post by jefferen on Jun 27, 2016 14:55:45 GMT -5
I think that even though s2 had some stupid plots, Vincat still had that sexual tensions,fear of separation and frankly compare to that s3 that zero action. I mean I also didn't want stupid triangle but there should have been some relationship conflict.Sometime this greater purpose thing had started to seems like a curse for our couple, instead of romantic couple they were more like co-worker with no romantic interest with each other. Plus any scene they had got killed by that dull (speaking politely) waredrobe. Glad that atleast wardrobe has improved. Now I seem shallow for talking about cloths all the time but for some reason bad fashion sense on Tv bother me,even though I have zero fashion sense. Yes! I totally agree with you! That's why I loved Season 2 even though we had the redhead and VinCat breaking up bc you literally can feel the sexual tension and pull between VinCat, where in S3 it was just dead flat. If they didn't bring in Gabe and Tori Season 2 wouldve had everything...but this is another discussion. I said it before, but I expected VinCat to kiss in the warehouse when Cat realizes it's Vincent. She needed to have more of a stand out reaction imo. I loved that it pretty much went full circle and Cat started telling V in the alternate universe that she couldn't do it without him. Also I just need to acknowledge VinCats scene in the present when they are trying to bring V back...and the final scene when V comes back to reality. Just bravo, and all the feels, it felt so real, and I don't think any other two actors could've pulled that specific scene off. Every time Cat whispered "I love you" in his ear, or carassed his face, or V leaned into Cats neck, I just cried a bit more. KK played it amazing. You could really see how V being in that state affected her and what it was doing to her emotionally and how it was breaking her heart. Jay was just stand out amazing this episode. Like a few have said before the scenes of his that stand out the most is when he goes to Cat on the roof and his whisper "don't be afraid'" just gave me goosebumps. His facial expressions on the roof when he's walking over to Cat telling her about her life. When he comes to in present time, the way he looks at her and kisses her before asking if she knows him, and I just felt it hard, when he tracks her in her apartment and realizes that she's been kidnapped. The way he played his deseperation to find her and for her to realize it was him....just I can't say enough about Jays peformance this episode.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 15:25:38 GMT -5
I think that even though s2 had some stupid plots, Vincat still had that sexual tensions,fear of separation and frankly compare to that s3 that zero action. I mean I also didn't want stupid triangle but there should have been some relationship conflict.Sometime this greater purpose thing had started to seems like a curse for our couple, instead of romantic couple they were more like co-worker with no romantic interest with each other. Plus any scene they had got killed by that dull (speaking politely) waredrobe. Glad that atleast wardrobe has improved. Now I seem shallow for talking about cloths all the time but for some reason bad fashion sense on Tv bother me,even though I have zero fashion sense. Yes! I totally agree with you! That's why I loved Season 2 even though we had the redhead and VinCat breaking up bc you literally can feel the sexual tension and pull between VinCat, where in S3 it was just dead flat. If they didn't bring in Gabe and Tori Season 2 wouldve had everything...but this is another discussion. I said it before, but I expected VinCat to kiss in the warehouse when Cat realizes it's Vincent. She needed to have more of a stand out reaction imo. I loved that it pretty much went full circle and Cat started telling V in the alternate universe that she couldn't do it without him. Also I just need to acknowledge VinCats scene in the present when they are trying to bring V back...and the final scene when V comes back to reality. Just bravo, and all the feels, it felt so real, and I don't think any other two actors could've pulled that specific scene off. Every time Cat whispered "I love you" in his ear, or carassed his face, or V leaned into Cats neck, I just cried a bit more. KK played it amazing. You could really see how V being in that state affected her and what it was doing to her emotionally and how it was breaking her heart. Jay was just stand out amazing this episode. Like a few have said before the scenes of his that stand out the most is when he goes to Cat on the roof and his whisper "don't be afraid'" just gave me goosebumps. His facial expressions on the roof when he's walking over to Cat telling her about her life. When he comes to in present time, the way he looks at her and kisses her before asking if she knows him, and I just felt it hard, when he tracks her in her apartment and realizes that she's been kidnapped. The way he played his deseperation to find her and for her to realize it was him....just I can't say enough about Jays peformance this episode. Idk, for them to have kissed at that point would have been a bit odd for me. After all, they didn't kiss in the real world until many months later. Furthermore, in the dream world she's married to Evan. That wouldn't have been right for her to so suddenly just switch to Vincent and kiss him no less. I think because Cat was married to Evan, they could only go so far with the VinCat interactions in the dream world, otherwise it would reflect poorly on Cat's character.
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Post by jefferen on Jun 27, 2016 16:02:08 GMT -5
Yes! I totally agree with you! That's why I loved Season 2 even though we had the redhead and VinCat breaking up bc you literally can feel the sexual tension and pull between VinCat, where in S3 it was just dead flat. If they didn't bring in Gabe and Tori Season 2 wouldve had everything...but this is another discussion. I said it before, but I expected VinCat to kiss in the warehouse when Cat realizes it's Vincent. She needed to have more of a stand out reaction imo. I loved that it pretty much went full circle and Cat started telling V in the alternate universe that she couldn't do it without him. Also I just need to acknowledge VinCats scene in the present when they are trying to bring V back...and the final scene when V comes back to reality. Just bravo, and all the feels, it felt so real, and I don't think any other two actors could've pulled that specific scene off. Every time Cat whispered "I love you" in his ear, or carassed his face, or V leaned into Cats neck, I just cried a bit more. KK played it amazing. You could really see how V being in that state affected her and what it was doing to her emotionally and how it was breaking her heart. Jay was just stand out amazing this episode. Like a few have said before the scenes of his that stand out the most is when he goes to Cat on the roof and his whisper "don't be afraid'" just gave me goosebumps. His facial expressions on the roof when he's walking over to Cat telling her about her life. When he comes to in present time, the way he looks at her and kisses her before asking if she knows him, and I just felt it hard, when he tracks her in her apartment and realizes that she's been kidnapped. The way he played his deseperation to find her and for her to realize it was him....just I can't say enough about Jays peformance this episode. Idk, for them to have kissed at that point would have been a bit odd for me. After all, they didn't kiss in the real world until many months later. Furthermore, in the dream world she's married to Evan. That wouldn't have been right for her to so suddenly just switch to Vincent and kiss him no less. I think because Cat was married to Evan, they could only go so far with the VinCat interactions in the dream world, otherwise it would reflect poorly on Cat's character. This is true. I wasn't even really thinking that far ahead, I was totally in the moment lol, but you are right.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 27, 2016 16:42:43 GMT -5
Even Kern can learn, at least as to some things. The incredible outcry from 215 where Cat fell into Vincent's arms (and bed) had SO MANY fans up in arms because Cat was technically in a relationship with IckPoo Man. Too many fans felt that reflected poorly on Catherine. (Frankly, I felt Cat was really cheating on Vincent, since she was most definitely NOT over him yet had begun a relationshp with Gabe in order to get over Vincent. So it was coming home for me when she ended up in bed with Vincent, but then she immediately goes back into denial-land the next morning, even after that beautiful montage had played in her head. Sigh.)
So having Cat up and kiss Vincent, when she barely knows him at this point, would be a really bad reflection on her character. As if she just goes with the moment without any real care for the consequences of her actions. And hey, even VinCat didn't kiss in the subway or the warehouse in the Pilot. They still had to get to know one another.
Quite frankly, based on what all I am hearing about this episode, THAT is what I wish would happen --a streaming service or network would do a BATB: Alternate Universe season, using this episode as a jumping point. You would have Catherine grieving Evan but seriously attracted to Vincent. It wouldn't take her long at all to figure out that Vincent is who makes her feel complete, but there would be the major guilt factor that would cause her to be cautious. And the guilt most likely would go both ways. Plus, REMEMBER how Cat ALMOST seems to reconsider her relationship with Vincent altogether after Evan's death, at least at first until Vincent talks her out of that, in the subway due to Muirfield. After seeing Evan DIE due to Muirfield, Cat would be LESS likely to want to vest in a relationship only to see Vincent die.
At least in S1 when Evan dies, VinCat were already together. And Evan had basically given his blessing. Although Cat wasn't completely happy with Evan in the alternate universe, knowing Catherine, she would blame herself for not somehow allowing herself to feel what she should for Evan and live for the present rather than being stuck in the past. So you would have relationship conflict for VinCat in a new way. And seeing them get to know one another all over again when Vincent sounds MUCH more feral in the alternate universe as a result of the fugues, etc.
I really think viewers would tune-in for that. A season in the alternate universe. Allows you to play with so much, especially since Cat WON'T and CAN'T have the same memories that Vincent does (unless they pull a Fringe Season 4 Olivia, who remembers a life she never lived due to the reset, BUT time itself just won't let her forget her love for Peter--very fairytale like). Vincent wouldn't know HOW he got where he did and into this "other" Vincent, but he would be determined to move forward WITH Cat. And have to convince her of that. Just as she had to do in S2. Would definitely lure back Beasties that fell by the wayside especially after S3.
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