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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 2:44:01 GMT -5
There's really so much to talk about in this absolutely "wonderful" episode!
I loved that there were many sly little nods to S1 and nice touches through out. Things like:
- Cat (in the real world) is wearing the same outfit in bed that she was in Insatiable. V's got on the same tank top too. - The 1x22 "VinCat hands separating" each time Vincent went into his fugue state dream world, like he was losing Cat again each time... - The Beauty and the Beast title screen being in white instead of black. Which matched the overexposed lighting used in the dream world. - Rooftop VinCat and Fire Escape Vincent - When Evan says "Vincent Keller, looks pretty good for a dead guy". I only wish that Cat would have said "you're him", when she realized it was Vincent who saved her the night of her mother's murder.
For me, Evan/Max was the real highlight of the show. I got very emotional watching him, it was the same feeling I had with Heart of Darkness, but even more so.
The episode started out with a bang and didn't let up until the very end. So much so, that the ending VinCat scene at the hospital was a bit anti-climatic. That was the only part I thought they could have done better. Heart of Darkness ended with that very emotional subway scene. If they had ended with a touching scene like that, this episode for sure would be one of the all time greats.
A few very minor gripes: What's up with the music this season? IMHO, the song choices haven't been as strong as in past seasons. That could have also made this episode even better.
Also, does everybody have their own key to Il Cantuccio? They can waltz in at 3 am in the morning, coming and going as they please? And Cat just leaves the knocked out bad guy in her apartment?
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Post by evanarose on Jun 27, 2016 2:44:18 GMT -5
Their hair has changed and Evan/Cat have been married for 2 years because it isn't suppose to be the same year as S1. The alternate reality is taking place during about the same year as S4. Vincent says to JT in his dream "do you remember that cop who investigated us give or take 4 years ago?" A reference to the pilot, so it's now about 4 years later. [/quote] Great observation skills! That makes sense. So is Cats hair really longer in the dream than normally? It seems like it but maybe a little longer? For some reason, they decided to go Season 1 Tess hairstyle...rather than have it curly so that confused me. I also went back to the scene where Vincent was hit on the head & laughed again lol.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 3:38:00 GMT -5
Yeah the hair styles were a bit confusing. Cat and Tess were sporting S1-ish hair styles. While V and JT were looking like their S4 selves (except for V's scar) and Evan also had a different look, compared to the S1 Evan.
Also, Evan didn't seem to be the precinct's medical examiner. Assumed he had returned to practicing medicine again, given he was driving a BMW 5 Series. Strange that when he tells V he should see a doctor, and V says "I am one", that Evan didn't say "me too" or even try to treat him.
One other thing that I didn't like or get was how Catherine just left her husband Evan in the warehouse. He was obviously still in danger. If she had stayed to see him get shot, that would have been a very emotional scene just like 1x18. But maybe the writers felt "been there and done that". Or maybe since it was Vincent's dream, he would rather in his dream have Cat run off with him vs. her staying behind with Evan.
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Post by bbatb on Jun 27, 2016 5:00:21 GMT -5
Yeah the hair styles were a bit confusing. Cat and Tess were sporting S1-ish hair styles. While V and JT were looking like their S4 selves (except for V's scar) and Evan also had a different look, compared to the S1 Evan. Also, Evan didn't seem to be the precinct's medical examiner. Assumed he had returned to practicing medicine again, given he was driving a BMW 5 Series. Strange that when he tells V he should see a doctor, and V says "I am one", that Evan didn't say "me too" or even try to treat him. One other thing that I didn't like or get was how Catherine just left her husband Evan in the warehouse. He was obviously still in danger. If she had stayed to see him get shot, that would have been a very emotional scene just like 1x18. But maybe the writers felt "been there and done that". Or maybe since it was Vincent's dream, he would rather in his dream have Cat run off with him vs. her staying behind with Evan.I thought the same thing BeastieBoy, but your explanation to is great: it WAS Vincent's dream. And we see that Catherine in this reality is making the same questionable life choices by marrying a man she does not love and trying hard to MAKE it work. Shades of S2's bad choice in a man whom she did not love and tried to MAKE it work with are raising their ugly heads. Why is Catherine not installing a revolving door in her apartment, since everybody walks in and out at will at any given time of the day or night? Already in S1 the Bustamante boys used a small tool to gain access in about 3 seconds flat, the ADA from hell just walzed in in 'Ever After', Heather comes and goes at will anyway, and the goon in this epi gets in noiselessly, too. Luckily, he makes a noise once he is inside and Vincent is awake and hears him, but Vincent should have heard his heartbeat long before. Also they mixed a bit of the latter Vincent in this dream sequence, because S1 Vincent was not able to track/envison events in his mind. This ability came with Bob's enhancement, as JT is explaining to Catherine and us at length in 201. The scene in the zoo was IMO a manifestation of Vincent's innermost fears about being 'exposed' to the world as a beast - I could have done without the dead and gutted dear. Overall a great episode and I loved, loved Catherine's hair - I guess they gave her hair extensions, because it did not look like a wig?
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Post by runner12batb on Jun 27, 2016 6:20:48 GMT -5
[quote author=" BeastieBoy" Or maybe since it was Vincent's dream, he would rather in his dream have Cat run off with him vs. her staying behind with Evan. [/quote] Yeah!I'm agreed with you BeastieBoy. Affer all It was Vincent's dream..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 7:07:52 GMT -5
Also, does everybody have their own key to Il Cantuccio? They can waltz in at 3 am in the morning, coming and going as they please? And Cat just leaves the knocked out bad guy in her apartment? They received a group message tecnically from Vincent but wasn't him... so who planned the trap, gave them access to Il Cantuccio too. The only thing is that neither Tess nor JT think about how was strange to see each other in that place at 3 am and went there without contaccting Vincent personally
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 8:06:52 GMT -5
Other lines that i loved: JT tellinv V: "yes and I'm married to Katie Perry" when he says that he is married with Cat Cat to Tess: maybe you will find a good guy for your life (or something like that) when they have the pic of Vin and JT on the pc monitor Vin to Bob: "at least you are consistant both in real life and in alternate world: you don't want me to stay with Cat Vin to Evan: "You are a good man, wish I've told you before" beacuse he knows the sacrifice Evan did and did again for the love and happiness of Cat Vin, JT, Tess and the gummy worm... happy they are back again. Gummy worms make Tess happy
Loved how Vincent look charming while approaching Cat at the bar, the look of a beaten pet on the rooftop and then the confidence that he is the only one that can do Cat's life better... and finally the admittance in real world that was a good thing for both of them have met years ago. I appriciate writers' choice to make Vincent acknoledge that he was "living in a dream" so we got the chance to see him being aware of how past choices can influence the future
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Post by ebeline on Jun 27, 2016 8:28:41 GMT -5
I like the most eps of S 4, I really do.
Yes it´s not S1 but still VinCat and this ep was great, at least for me. Jay and Kristin played it so well.
The most important thing was their love. The love which brings V back from the edge of loosing himself like in S 2 and the love which has convinced S1 V to be worth of Cats love. Cats I love you was heartbraking and V´s expression at the fireescape even more tragic. The whole time although they have been married, this sting has remained from S 1 in V.
This nagging feeling not to be valuable for Cat. As Cat couldn´t heal over Vanessa's death without V in her life, V could not heal equally.
Now the fuges let V realized that Cat only could heal because he is in her life and that makes him be complete.
The scene at the hospital when Cat tell V I thought I lost you and her look at him , let V realize that He is really the most important thing in her life. No but..!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 9:15:01 GMT -5
Why is Catherine not installing a revolving door in her apartment, since everybody walks in and out at will at any given time of the day or night? Already in S1 the Bustamante boys used a small tool to gain access in about 3 seconds flat, the ADA from hell just walzed in in 'Ever After', Heather comes and goes at will anyway, and the goon in this epi gets in noiselessly, too. Luckily, he makes a noise once he is inside and Vincent is awake and hears him, but Vincent should have heard his heartbeat long before. Also they mixed a bit of the latter Vincent in this dream sequence, because S1 Vincent was not able to track/envison events in his mind. This ability came with Bob's enhancement, as JT is explaining to Catherine and us at length in 201.The scene in the zoo was IMO a manifestation of Vincent's innermost fears about being 'exposed' to the world as a beast - I could have done without the dead and gutted dear.
Overall a great episode and I loved, loved Catherine's hair - I guess they gave her hair extensions, because it did not look like a wig? At that point Vincent is fully aware that he is living in an alternat world so he is S4 Vincent with the track/envision power but other (JT and BOB) are in S1 idea of Vincent (and they don't know what he is doing) Yes the dead dear was not a pleasant view, but following in your idea of a metaphora, Vincent is a wild animal with primal instict to kill like he did with Tori's father ripping his heart off, and that is how he feels himself when he beast out... and he could kill even innocents if he lets the beast out of control
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Post by bbatb on Jun 27, 2016 10:21:06 GMT -5
The writer does not explicitly TELL us at what point the two stories diverged, but it can be deducted from what Vincent tells JT that Catherine is the cop that came looking for him 4 years ago.
So, Vincent DID try to save Ashley's life and left his fingerprint on her body, which caused Catherine and Tess to come to the warehouse looking for him. But in this alternate universe apparently, they were happy with what JT told them about Vincent being dead and Catherine never came back for a second time and never met Vincent upstairs.
And even though he saved her from her mother's killers, he never SHOWED himself to her afterwards and she wound up married to Evan.
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Post by batb217 on Jun 27, 2016 10:42:26 GMT -5
Honestly, I think that what really made this episode more like season 1 was the distinct lack of exposition. It let the episode flow a lot more and also allowed us to really connect with the characters. Going into this episode, I wasn't expecting to fully understand the actions or feelings of the characters in the dream, but I was pleasantly surprised that I could connect to those characters and understand why they did what they did.
The fact that this is just a completely different style of episode also makes it so different from the kind of samey episodes we've been getting since the latter part of season 2. This was definitely a positive change!
Austin Basis and Jay Ryan were standout for me, both giving absolutely everything into those dream scenes and it was wonderful to see more of their relationship that we haven't necessarily seen for quite a while.
I'm glad that both Evan and Bob Reynolds came back. And, perhaps more importantly, their stories were believable and their characters (as someone has already mentioned) were very consistent to their original characters.
I've watched it twice now, and I might watch it again later. This is definitely one of my favourite episodes that the show has ever done.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 27, 2016 11:39:24 GMT -5
Even back in Season 1, I always thought it was the epitome of recklessness YET showed Vincent's love of Catherine that he CHOSE to remain in the warehouse when she came up the stairs. I mean, you just KNOW that JT and Vincent would have other means for Vincent of getting out of a big warehouse other than one door. So Vincent CHOSE to stay in our universe, but in this alternate one, he hid or jumped out a window. (Vincent did tell Cat that he and JT could have everything they needed and clear out of the place in fifteen minutes and be on the way to the "safe haven," so they obviously had ways to leave quick.) So that was always a conscious act on Vincent's part to just stay in the warehouse and let Catherine interview him BECAUSE it was the only way he could actually and legitimately meet her. It was also an act of extraordinary trust, knowing that she might not believe him and choose to expose him. Yet he stays. And I LOVED THAT from the Pilot So I love that this episode has Vincent obviously NOT staying and not thinking he is worthy enough to meet her. And Cat and Tess then obviously solved the case on their own. (But did Cat end up in the subway or not? How did Vincent end up not saving her there?) HOW will I EVER make it until THURSDAY? Sigh. I will truly be the last Beastie ever to see this episode!! I'm thrilled Bob came back as well as Evan. Last quick questions: So is Joe still the head of the precinct? Did his brother's case not happen? Guess that means the evil G-man never came either? Obviously, they couldn't do everything or cover everything with just one episode. WISH WISH WISH that the alternate universe/dream could have been a two-parter! But it sounds wonderful enough as-is.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 27, 2016 11:44:28 GMT -5
And I, too, wonder if Vincent's dream-mind isn't trying to TELL him something regarding Muirfield. We certainly know that beast experiments were happening OUTSIDE of Muirfield, as Sam was part of beast "trials" on sick kids. So Muirfield was certainly MORE than just one man. And once that one man was gone, those scientists and agents left might have been hired by others. So it may be that the "big bad" of this season DOES have ties back to Muirfield. Because all of this cloak and dagger stuff sounds straight out of the Muirfield playbook.
WhenWillTHURSDAYbeHERE? The wait is SERIOUSLY killing me! Give ME MORE DEETS on VINCAT interaction, people!
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Post by swimgrl on Jun 27, 2016 11:51:20 GMT -5
So many thoughts, hard to keep them organizers!
Love this ep! Agree that less exposition was a big pro. Just let the story tell the story. You shouldn't have to knock us over the head with what you're trying to tell us.
I got a huge laugh when JT hit Vincent over the head with the broom to prove to him it was real, LOL!
Also really enjoyed more JT & Vincent time, as others have said. I hope they make that happen more in the remaining episodes (sniff, sniff).
For me the weakest moment of the episode was the final hospital scene. I think because it went back to being more stilted again? Clearly that CAN write an episode in more of the original style, so PLEASE, PLEASE can we get more of that?!
I think my favourite moment was when V finally came out of the fugue and he and Cat put their heads together. So sweet, so emotional. I just adored it.
Planning to rewatch tonight. There were so many good moment, can't wait to see it again.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 27, 2016 11:52:58 GMT -5
Even back in Season 1, I always thought it was the epitome of recklessness YET showed Vincent's love of Catherine that he CHOSE to remain in the warehouse when she came up the stairs. I mean, you just KNOW that JT and Vincent would have other means for Vincent of getting out of a big warehouse other than one door. So Vincent CHOSE to stay in our universe, but in this alternate one, he hid or jumped out a window. (Vincent did tell Cat that he and JT could have everything they needed and clear out of the place in fifteen minutes and be on the way to the "safe haven," so they obviously had ways to leave quick.) So that was always a conscious act on Vincent's part to just stay in the warehouse and let Catherine interview him BECAUSE it was the only way he could actually and legitimately meet her. It was also an act of extraordinary trust, knowing that she might not believe him and choose to expose him. Yet he stays. And I LOVED THAT from the Pilot So I love that this episode has Vincent obviously NOT staying and not thinking he is worthy enough to meet her. And Cat and Tess then obviously solved the case on their own. (But did Cat end up in the subway or not? How did Vincent end up not saving her there?) HOW will I EVER make it until THURSDAY? Sigh. I will truly be the last Beastie ever to see this episode!! I'm thrilled Bob came back as well as Evan. Last quick questions: So is Joe still the head of the precinct? Did his brother's case not happen? Guess that means the evil G-man never came either? Obviously, they couldn't do everything or cover everything with just one episode. WISH WISH WISH that the alternate universe/dream could have been a two-parter! But it sounds wonderful enough as-is. Joe is mentioned, Tess is still seeing him. The questions you have aren't directly answered, but the implication is that Joe's still head of the precinct, his brother never died and Gabe was never involved. As you surmised, since Cat never found Vincent in the warehouse (pilot ep), it changed the timeline so most of the other things that occurred in S1 never happened in this alternate reality/dream. However there are other elements that stayed. Such as Evan's interest in cross species DNA. In this case, due to his wife, Cat, not being able to let go of the night her mom was murdered. I like this alternate time line. Too bad it was just a dream and the characters couldn't remain there. LOL.
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