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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Feb 24, 2014 6:03:47 GMT -5
One question about last episode: wasn't the Gabe-ultimatum part of Cat's dream? In other words, we don't know that it actually happened, just that Cat dreamed that it happened. no the dream started when cat visited v also confirmed by the writers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 7:27:11 GMT -5
Gabe said "Vincent has to go"; but Catherine didn't dream about that ; we saw in the preview that the "ultimatum" will appear in the next episode. She only said that "It's not fair to Gabe....." And in ep 15, he"ll say : "are you with me or are you with him ?" It's the way I understood It. I agree, the conversation about her relationship with Vincent interfering with her relationship with him and that Vincent had to go was not part of her dream sequence. The dream begins with her driving to the boathouse, when in fact she is in Gabe's bed. The moment Catherine said something positive about Vincent (that she felt badly for involving him in saving Gabe when Vincent was trying so hard to be just human) Gabe became jealous and went from being an understanding boyfriend to being a possessive one. Many of us, myself included, were surprised by Catherine's meek reaction. But her reaction is totally coherent with this season' s Catherine. She was reduced to a co-dependent woman that only accepts what people tell her to do. Not even Gabe, but Tess and, surprisingly, Reynolds, whom she knows for 5 seconds, have a say in her life and how she has to live it. Cat 2.0 simply doesn't have a mind of her own. Everything she does is in a way to please others or escape her problems. It's in accord to this season's plan to destroy any ship connected to VinCat which is sad in its own, but it takes an entire new meaning when you think about the fact that the plan failed and had to be changed. They could use the changes to get rid of the sexist undertone, but that never occured to them.
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Post by eyeofthetiger on Feb 24, 2014 13:31:10 GMT -5
So I watched it again. The dream scenes were great. I loved how in each dream the other seemed to more like the person's inner voice. In V's dream, C finally made him answer the question about whether he wanted an "us", something he has been avoiding for weeks, maybe even months. In C's dream, V told her he does still love her and that they do belong together. As others said, what was coming out of C's mouth was what Gabe & her father were trying to tell her. So glad they had those dreams. I do love seeing Dr. Keller back, esp in those scrubs. But that scene w/ the kid on the stretcher was ridiculous. It just seemed like a convenient way for the writers to give V back his confidence that he could save people. There is no way that kid got into the OR, just because some orderly brought him up cuz some guy in a leather jacket told him to. They should have spent more time w/ Dr. Markus instead of some unrealistic ER moment. And all I can say is that I love Dr. Markus, I hope he sticks around as a positive influence in Vincent's life. Vincent could us a mentor right now, just like Catherine could use a therapist. Along the medical lines, do you think that Catherine forgot that Vincent was a real Dr? Her comment about leave it to the real doctors just seemed so out of place. It shows how far she has come in not really seeing him. But I also think she has gotten so used to him being there for her and them working together that she does not want him to return to medicine. I think she enjoys not having to share him. If he went back to being a MD, then he would not be able to be as big a part in her life. Somebody else mentioned it on this site (sorry, I forgot who ) but after watching this episode it does sorta feel that V & C have completely reversed roles... Not too long ago all Vincent wanted to do was find the gem. Now all Catherine wants to do is find Barnes. in the process, sacrificing everything that is important to them. I just want them off the concentric merry-go-round they have been on this season. I get the parallels between the two, but at some point they have to converge. At some point, they need to use Gabe's word "resolve" what has been going on between & around them. Maybe they'll finally catch one another in s15.
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Post by Bill the beast on Feb 24, 2014 15:36:38 GMT -5
Watching Season-One with my family, we made it to episode 13 last night. I believe that is the one where Catherine, having been shot and also watching Vincent go off with Alex/Red, is forced to talk to the police psychiatrist. She is really not good at facing her feelings. She will bury herself in a case or whatever to avoid saying "OK, I love him". And when she finally can, Vincent shoots her down. Oh, man!
This is Catherine's character-flaw, if you want to call it that. Perfectly understandable; she has been hurt a lot and she tends to take responsibility for too much. But it is a recurring motif in Season-One that Catherine will be talking to someone about a case or her Father's wedding or something and it will put her in touch with a parallel theme about her relationship with Vincent. And when it does, she is able to take a step forward.
It is clear by this point that she has fallen in love with Vincent, not out of pity for the beast/victim, but for admiration of Dr. Keller the hero still present inside and dominant despite the former. What happens to her if he is not dead but virtually destroyed?
For the three months Vincent is missing Catherine is practically crazy. She can tell anyone who will listen that she loves Vincent and will not stop until she gets him back. She is even not so attractive in the early episodes of Season Two; her hair is forward on her face and she is, in a word, obsessed.
So I would say the theme of Season-Two is: what happens to such a woman when she finds that the Vincent she fell in love with has been destroyed? Does it destroy her too? In what ways does she protect herself from the pain?
Well, that gets us to where we are now in Season-Two. Ironically, Vincent (Dr. Keller, the hero) is coming back from destruction. Cat has not been destroyed (I would argue) but transformed. I don't disagree with any of the criticisms posted above, I just remember that she is not good with her feelings. But she DOES gets in touch, eventually.
Maybe, in dreams first?
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Post by eyeofthetiger on Feb 24, 2014 17:33:08 GMT -5
Watching Season-One with my family, we made it to episode 13 last night. I believe that is the one where Catherine, having been shot and also watching Vincent go off with Alex/Red, is forced to talk to the police psychiatrist. She is really not good at facing her feelings. She will bury herself in a case or whatever to avoid saying "OK, I love him". And when she finally can, Vincent shoots her down. Oh, man! This is Catherine's character-flaw, if you want to call it that. Perfectly understandable; she has been hurt a lot and she tends to take responsibility for too much. But it is a recurring motif in Season-One that Catherine will be talking to someone about a case or her Father's wedding or something and it will put her in touch with a parallel theme about her relationship with Vincent. And when it does, she is able to take a step forward. It is clear by this point that she has fallen in love with Vincent, not out of pity for the beast/victim, but for admiration of Dr. Keller the hero still present inside and dominant despite the former. What happens to her if he is not dead but virtually destroyed? For the three months Vincent is missing Catherine is practically crazy. She can tell anyone who will listen that she loves Vincent and will not stop until she gets him back. She is even not so attractive in the early episodes of Season Two; her hair is forward on her face and she is, in a word, obsessed. So I would say the theme of Season-Two is: what happens to such a woman when she finds that the Vincent she fell in love with has been destroyed? Does it destroy her too? In what ways does she protect herself from the pain? Well, that gets us to where we are now in Season-Two. Ironically, Vincent (Dr. Keller, the hero) is coming back from destruction. Cat has not been destroyed (I would argue) but transformed. I don't disagree with any of the criticisms posted above, I just remember that she is not good with her feelings. But she DOES gets in touch, eventually.Maybe, in dreams first?Absolutely agree with the bold. Catherine has admitted on more than one occasion that she is not good with her feelings and that she has a lot of baggage. Vincent even called her out for her hesitation in s1. She has trouble opening up and trusting people even b4 Vincent was kidnapped & brainwashed by her father. She probably was not an ideal person to undergo that level of emotional turmoil (not that there is an ideal person). She was never in the right place to fully understand her and/or then act of her emotions. A lot of people suffer from similar emotional afflictions either cause of what they experienced 1st or 2nd hand. She wants to protect herself and to some degree that is admirable. The problem is then when you use that protective instinct to stop you from new experiences. The more I see the Gabe relationship, the more I can get where she is coming from trying to be in a mature adult relationship. In this episode when they had the conversation about being honest with each other and trusting one another. She didn't even want to talk with him about how she felt about shooting Jacob! That seems like something you would feel comfortable discussing with your partner, esp if they experienced the same thing. But it takes Gabe, to chide her that they need to be honest with each other, for her to say anything about it. It wasnt like that with Vincent, they were discussing it outside the warehouse before Gabe showed up. So that to me indicates where Cat is emotionally. She is all gung ho full speed ahead Gaberine, but seems to be doing it for intellectual reasons, not necessarily emotional reasons. I think Gabe senses this hesitation from her and rather like V in s1 questions her. Except he questions her level of commitment to the relationship and indirectly blames V for her hesitation to emotionally commit. That's not very emotionally supportive to someone who is trying to be a more trustful emotionally open person, esp after she saved your life just a few hours ago. Give her some emotional breathing space. Its sorta a emotional slap across the head, but I think that might have had more to do w/ Gabe's insecurities. Poor Catherine can't catch a break! Everytime she takes a step forward into bravely facing her emotional struggles, someone just sideswipes her back a few steps. I forgot that she had to see the psychologist because she was shot. I had hoped it was mandatory for her to see him whenever she shot & killed someone. But then again, Catherine also seems to be an emotional self saboteur, so even therapy is not going to easily be effective. Even in the S1 therapy scene, she ran tried to run the entire session. She will jump through the hoops but it takes a lot for her to internally process the intent of her behaviors and emotions.
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Post by ArwenFan on Feb 24, 2014 19:18:05 GMT -5
I agree, the conversation about her relationship with Vincent interfering with her relationship with him and that Vincent had to go was not part of her dream sequence. The dream begins with her driving to the boathouse, when in fact she is in Gabe's bed. The moment Catherine said something positive about Vincent (that she felt badly for involving him in saving Gabe when Vincent was trying so hard to be just human) Gabe became jealous and went from being an understanding boyfriend to being a possessive one. Many of us, myself included, were surprised by Catherine's meek reaction. But her reaction is totally coherent with this season' s Catherine. She was reduced to a co-dependent woman that only accepts what people tell her to do. Not even Gabe, but Tess and, surprisingly, Reynolds, whom she knows for 5 seconds, have a say in her life and how she has to live it. Cat 2.0 simply doesn't have a mind of her own. Everything she does is in a way to please others or escape her problems. It's in accord to this season's plan to destroy any ship connected to VinCat which is sad in its own, but it takes an entire new meaning when you think about the fact that the plan failed and had to be changed. They could use the changes to get rid of the sexist undertone, but that never occured to them. I can't say that I agree with everything you've said, but I do love the way you say it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 19:58:21 GMT -5
I just re-watched this episode and I have been thinking to myself for a while: "Is there anything insightful about it that hasn't been said already? Do I have a new, fresh and interesting take on things?"....and the answer is always the same...nope, nope, nope, nope....I believe that my problem, at the moment, is that I get stuck at Vincent's dream sequence and I can't get Tegan and Sara's new song out of my head: Vincent, "you do your body work, I feel my pulse working overtime...you do your body work, I feel my pulse working overtime..." I know, saucy...yep, yep, yep, yep!!!!
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Post by MyBatB on Feb 25, 2014 4:08:46 GMT -5
I agree, the conversation about her relationship with Vincent interfering with her relationship with him and that Vincent had to go was not part of her dream sequence. The dream begins with her driving to the boathouse, when in fact she is in Gabe's bed. The moment Catherine said something positive about Vincent (that she felt badly for involving him in saving Gabe when Vincent was trying so hard to be just human) Gabe became jealous and went from being an understanding boyfriend to being a possessive one. Many of us, myself included, were surprised by Catherine's meek reaction. But her reaction is totally coherent with this season' s Catherine. She was reduced to a co-dependent woman that only accepts what people tell her to do. Not even Gabe, but Tess and, surprisingly, Reynolds, whom she knows for 5 seconds, have a say in her life and how she has to live it. Cat 2.0 simply doesn't have a mind of her own. Everything she does is in a way to please others or escape her problems. It's in accord to this season's plan to destroy any ship connected to VinCat which is sad in its own, but it takes an entire new meaning when you think about the fact that the plan failed and had to be changed. They could use the changes to get rid of the sexist undertone, but that never occured to them. Sorry, I can't agree with this. The Catherine of S01 is always here. But she appears unsecure, sad, hurt, struggling with all this mess... And her behaviour is affected by that, but her acts are definitely hers, not being dictated by others or to escape her problems. She reacts like a woman in despair sometimes, but always goes forwards ! She arrested her father, she's the one who first kissed Gabe at the preccinct, she's the one who takes the lead in the cases, she's enough determined and independant to fix the difficulties in her life and her job, and it takes a lot of courage. Only someone with a great personality can overcome such a tragedy. I don't see a sexist plan here. And believe me, I love the "strong independant woman" in the litterature, movies or tv show ! Besides, I don't see either men in the show acting like machos. (BTW you changed your name...again ! Next will be for the better, I hope !)
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Post by Ilaria on Feb 26, 2014 11:36:57 GMT -5
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Post by chilly20 on Feb 26, 2014 12:12:06 GMT -5
Hahahaha, I thought she would also be thinking about sex since Tess is advising her to be strong.
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Post by Bill the beast on Feb 26, 2014 18:16:28 GMT -5
Catherine's theme in this episode is "destroying beasts", and that may symbolize, to her, killing her love for Vincent. The good news is the love is still there, somewhere. I'd like to re-raise the issue of where did Cat's dream sequence begin. Did it begin with her driving toward the marina or did it begin earlier when she and Gabe arrived at his apartment? Hear me out.
[About half-way through the episode, we have this exchange between Gabe and Cat:] #1=[26:38 on the CWTV.COM playback] G: You know, its alright to worry about him. C: worry about who? OK, yeah, I'm worried. Don't you think we should have heard from Vincent by now? G: I think if we really want to make this work, we have to be honest with each other about everything, including Vincent. Cat, I don't expect you to suddenly stop caring about Vincent; you have a history with him - we all do. But you can't just keep avoiding it. C: I know; I'm sorry. G: Are you alright? Since you came back from visiting your Father, you've been a little quiet.
[Cat is typically not acknowledging her feelings. Gabe's main point is honesty and sounds fair and reasonable. The phrase "... can't just keep avoiding it" is not clear because we are not sure what "it" refers to but in the context it seems to refer to feelings about Vincent. For Gabe this is miles away from a criticism - except that he continues to encourage honesty.]
[After the crisis with Jacob is over and Vincent and Cat have saved Gabe:] #2=[36:38] C: That's not what's bothering me. I didn't even hesitate, I just pulled the trigger. V: Its not like you haven't shot a beast before. C: Yeah, but it is the first time it didn't even cross my mind I was shooting a person too.
[Others have raised the issue of PTSD - Cat has been shooting Vincent and other beasts without any therapy. (Maybe to be seen soon in a future episode. No matter where it starts, it is a pretty disturbing dream) All she gets is her bio-Father suggesting she has to destroy Vincent before he destroys her. So, from [#1] she has difficulty being honest about her feelings and from [#2] something about shooting beasts is tormenting her.]
[Cat and Gabe arrive at his apartment:] #3=[39:00] G: Do you want to talk about it? [Cat feels bad about having shot Jacob and about having asked Vincent to help. "He's trying so hard to be a man, not a beast.] G: He's not a man; he's a beast. C: You don't really believe that. G: What I believe is that your relationship with Vincent is getting in the way of ours. I don't have to like it. It feels like there are three of us in this relationship. Sooner or later this has to be resolved. Vincent has to go.
[Then we see Cat driving to the marina, her face tormented, as if wrestling with something.] #4: C: "This is so confusing, not fair to me, not fair to Gabe". [But it is she who keeps involving Vincent.] V: SCREW GABE [Maybe this is what Cat wants Vincent to say, to fight for their love and not say she should be with Gabe.]
[Now, I believe Gabe's comments after they arrive back at his apartment [#3] are completely inconsistent with the first exchange [#1]. I'm not much of a fan of Gabe (still might be a decent guy) but I think it is at least possible that Cat's dream sequence goes back to the beginning of #3. The issues in that conversation are what trouble Cat not Gabe. His attitude in [#1] is pretty reasonable. Nothing has happened to change it except Cat and Vincent saved his butt.]
I realize some think the writers have resolved the issue; if so, then I will just have to respectfully disagree with them.
BATB Writers ?@batbwriters 2h Just to clarify, Cat's nightmare was that she pushed Vincent and he cracked his head, the rest of the episode is fair game #Redemption #BatB
That doesn't explicitly say where the dream sequence started.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 19:32:57 GMT -5
Thank you, Bill, for re-raising the issue of Catherine's dream. I see the point you are strongly establishing here; however, I still feel the dream begins with Catherine driving to the marina. I had been critical of Catherine's meek reaction to Gabe's words, but perhaps she was as stunned as I have often been this season, taking in the inconsistency of his words in #1 when compared to those in #3. At some point that evening, Gabe and Catherine went to bed, then she had her dream.
I believe that all the events surrounding Jacob, led Gabe to realize that his place as Catherine's boyfriend is precarious at best; thus, he decided to make a drastic change in his approach to Catherine and Vincent's "friendship". The understanding boyfriend rapidly and easily became the possessive boyfriend. This is no more inconsistent with Gabe's character than any of the many apparent inconsistencies that have been observed with both Vincent and Catherine's character. We can explain away anything, but, from my perspective, the writing has been extremely suspect this season, and the necessary time has not been dedicated to showing and building understanding of character development. I understand everyone's issues with the many inconsistencies we have had to digest.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 19:34:13 GMT -5
Catherine's theme in this episode is "destroying beasts", and that may symbolize, to her, killing her love for Vincent. The good news is the love is still there, somewhere. I'd like to re-raise the issue of where did Cat's dream sequence begin. Did it begin with her driving toward the marina or did it begin earlier when she and Gabe arrived at his apartment? Hear me out. [About half-way through the episode, we have this exchange between Gabe and Cat:] #1=[26:38 on the CWTV.COM playback] G: You know, its alright to worry about him. C: worry about who? OK, yeah, I'm worried. Don't you think we should have heard from Vincent by now? G: I think if we really want to make this work, we have to be honest with each other about everything, including Vincent. Cat, I don't expect you to suddenly stop caring about Vincent; you have a history with him - we all do. But you can't just keep avoiding it. C: I know; I'm sorry. G: Are you alright? Since you came back from visiting your Father, you've been a little quiet. [Cat is typically not acknowledging her feelings. Gabe's main point is honesty and sounds fair and reasonable. The phrase "... can't just keep avoiding it" is not clear because we are not sure what "it" refers to but in the context it seems to refer to feelings about Vincent. For Gabe this is miles away from a criticism - except that he continues to encourage honesty.] [After the crisis with Jacob is over and Vincent and Cat have saved Gabe:] #2=[36:38] C: That's not what's bothering me. I didn't even hesitate, I just pulled the trigger. V: Its not like you haven't shot a beast before. C: Yeah, but it is the first time it didn't even cross my mind I was shooting a person too. [Others have raised the issue of PTSD - Cat has been shooting Vincent and other beasts without any therapy. (Maybe to be seen soon in a future episode. No matter where it starts, it is a pretty disturbing dream) All she gets is her bio-Father suggesting she has to destroy Vincent before he destroys her. So, from [#1] she has difficulty being honest about her feelings and from [#2] something about shooting beasts is tormenting her.] [Cat and Gabe arrive at his apartment:] #3=[39:00] G: Do you want to talk about it? [Cat feels bad about having shot Jacob and about having asked Vincent to help. "He's trying so hard to be a man, not a beast.] G: He's not a man; he's a beast. C: You don't really believe that. G: What I believe is that your relationship with Vincent is getting in the way of ours. I don't have to like it. It feels like there are three of us in this relationship. Sooner or later this has to be resolved. Vincent has to go. [Then we see Cat driving to the marina, her face tormented, as if wrestling with something.] #4: C: "This is so confusing, not fair to me, not fair to Gabe". [But it is she who keeps involving Vincent.] V: SCREW GABE [Maybe this is what Cat wants Vincent to say, to fight for their love and not say she should be with Gabe.] [Now, I believe Gabe's comments after they arrive back at his apartment [#3] are completely inconsistent with the first exchange [#1]. I'm not much of a fan of Gabe (still might be a decent guy) but I think it is at least possible that Cat's dream sequence goes back to the beginning of #3. The issues in that conversation are what trouble Cat not Gabe. His attitude in [#1] is pretty reasonable. Nothing has happened to change it except Cat and Vincent saved his butt.] I realize some think the writers have resolved the issue; if so, then I will just have to respectfully disagree with them. BATB Writers ?@batbwriters 2h Just to clarify, Cat's nightmare was that she pushed Vincent and he cracked his head, the rest of the episode is fair game #Redemption #BatB That doesn't explicitly say where the dream sequence started. That is some amazing insight. You don't happen to analyze dreams for a living, do you?
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Post by Bill the beast on Feb 26, 2014 21:56:17 GMT -5
... You don't happen to analyze dreams for a living, do you? Nope. Was once a software designer ... Not likely to get anyone to buy my argument but I thought I could raise the issue again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 22:27:42 GMT -5
... You don't happen to analyze dreams for a living, do you? Nope. Was once a software designer ... Not likely to get anyone to buy my argument but I thought I could raise the issue again. I'm glad you did...there is much food for thought in your analisis, and, believe me, I want to buy your argument, but this season has shown me that our writiers are not as insightful and thoughtful as you are, Bill. I enjoy reading everything you write, even when our two drawings of the same subject aren't quite the same.
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