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Post by DayaBEASTS4 on Feb 11, 2013 12:07:53 GMT -5
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Post by oa on Feb 11, 2013 12:30:13 GMT -5
you are very welcome @dayabeats at least i know that you understand the twisted way i saw the last 3 episodes... i just think that at the end of the last one vincent finally started to catch up with the beast about how they feel about cat!
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Post by DayaBEASTS4 on Feb 11, 2013 12:54:27 GMT -5
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Post by Vincent Keller on Feb 11, 2013 21:07:18 GMT -5
Remember to keep spoilers in the spoilers area! A spoiler is any news, info, pics, etc. from an ep that has not yet aired.
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Post by VinCat❤Destined on Feb 11, 2013 21:12:59 GMT -5
I'm uploading the SLOW motion version on youtube once I have it up I will post the vid on the Trust No One speculation thread..Maybe we can analyze the clips better LOL
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Post by DayaBEASTS4 on Feb 12, 2013 12:31:36 GMT -5
Sorry vincent Keller!!! I just want to show his beautiful eyes in this picture.. I love the Pic.. nothing more!! I just don`t know how to HANDLER forum .... ;D its my first forums
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Post by Vincent Keller on Feb 14, 2013 0:38:01 GMT -5
^ No worries! It's not a big deal
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Post by batbfan on Feb 28, 2013 22:01:29 GMT -5
Speaking as a guy you have to cut Vincent some slack ladies. Alex was his fiancee and he really didn't want to hurt her, it is understandable that he still felt some sense of obligation to Alex after all they never really had any kind of closure, she was his first love and they were engaged
He intended to let Alex down gently and gradually but unfortunately Cat was playing it tough and began pushing him away because she misread Vincent's handling of the situation (understandable - a romantic cabin getaway not the best place to let someone down).
Vincent's behaviour is admittedly very foolish but then he is motivated by guilt and the need to do the right thing, not to mention some kind of escapist fantasy. A classic example of this is his decision to join the army after the death of his brothers - the motivation is as much survivor's guilt as anger. I can fully understand Vincent's desire not to hurt Alex anymore than he already had, he probably thought that Catherine could handle more than Alex as she is a stronger person, and he was counting on this strength to see her through until he could help Alex come to terms with the fact that they couldn't be together.
Why didn't he tell her straight off in the cabin, why did he let her continue to believe he would actually go to Mexico with her? Well the answer is he was delaying the inevitable. Vincent has never fully accepted who he has become and Alex was an escapist fantasy for him, - the hard part about fantasies is letting them go. Unfortunately this led Vincent to string Alex along (e.g. lingerie - really bad move Vincent).
As an aspiring writer I think the real outcome of this storyline is that Vincent has begun to let go of his past life, and ultimately saw that someone like Catherine is very rare, someone who knows his dark side and but still accepts him, Beast and all. This is the catalyst for their relationship to move forward.
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Darcy
Detective
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Post by Darcy on Feb 28, 2013 22:54:49 GMT -5
Speaking as a guy you have to cut Vincent some slack ladies. Alex was his fiancee and he really didn't want to hurt her, it is understandable that he still felt some sense of obligation to Alex after all they never really had any kind of closure, she was his first love and they were engaged He intended to let Alex down gently and gradually but unfortunately Cat was playing it tough and began pushing him away because she misread Vincent's handling of the situation (understandable - a romantic cabin getaway not the best place to let someone down). Vincent's behaviour is admittedly very foolish but then he is motivated by guilt and the need to do the right thing, not to mention some kind of escapist fantasy. A classic example of this is his decision to join the army after the death of his brothers - the motivation is as much survivor's guilt as anger. I can fully understand Vincent's desire not to hurt Alex anymore than he already had, he probably thought that Catherine could handle more than Alex as she is a stronger person, and he was counting on this strength to see her through until he could help Alex come to terms with the fact that they couldn't be together. Why didn't he tell her straight off in the cabin, why did he let her continue to believe he would actually go to Mexico with her? Well the answer is he was delaying the inevitable. Vincent has never fully accepted who he has become and Alex was an escapist fantasy for him, - the hard part about fantasies is letting them go. Unfortunately this led Vincent to string Alex along (e.g. lingerie - really bad move Vincent). As an aspiring writer I think the real outcome of this storyline is that Vincent has begun to let go of his past life, and ultimately saw that someone like Catherine is very rare, someone who knows his dark side and but still accepts him, Beast and all. This is the catalyst for their relationship to move forward. So well said, batbfan!! Thanks for the insight from your perspective, both as a man and as a writer... I agree we need more balance in our view of Vincent... it's just hard for us to see him show emotional attachment to anyone but Catherine!!
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Post by batbfan on Mar 1, 2013 8:07:36 GMT -5
Thanks Darcy. I wonder if we also have some fans of the original series who have been conditioned to expect a more straight-forward romance. In the original series the beast was a paradigm of virtue who only had eyes for Catherine and was always so noble, loyal and true (a perfect role model for us guys especially today when fidelity seems to be the exception rather than the norm).
Vincent was a rock Catherine could always depend upon. What I especially enjoyed was that two characters seemed to be two whole persons (even if Catherine was a bit of a damsel in distress - a regrettable plot device). Since they were complete as individuals, there moments together could really shine. They were not together because they of emotional baggage, compulsion or some misguided attempt to complete one another.
The best part though was their relationship was never selfish, they never became so absorbed in each other that they stopped caring about addressing injustice, their love in fact made them more compassionate to others as true love should always do. It gave them the strength to take personal risks in order to ensure other people's happiness, even at the expense of their own. Their love is so great that it cannot be confined to two people it spills out into the world reshaping it according to the same values they live by so that a few lives can be touched and changed for the better.
What I find interesting about this new series is that although its attempts to grapple with the messiness of the world we live in today, the intrinsic goodness of the characters remains but here there characters are more of a work in progress than a finished product.
Vincent in the original series was born a beast while in the modern incarnation Vincent became one much later on. The beast's strength of character comes from wrestling with his condition and its repercussions. Since he knows what it is to be 'ugly and unlovable' he developed an extraordinary compassion for others especially the outcast and the rejected. The subterranean world revealed a seeming contradiction because in its confined spaces there was greater freedom than in the world above. It was such a contrast to the violence and evils found on the New York streets. Vincent sought to bring some of these values to the world above - to show that different values could shape the way people live.
The present Vincent has a long way to go before he will become that paradigm of virtue, but it will be an interesting journey as we see how Vincent's own struggle to accept the beast within, and how the experience of rejection and persecution which it has brought him, allows him to tame his beastly nature with compassion and channel it into confronting injustice. Vincent will learn a long the way that his confinement is not imprisonment, because he is free in so long as he is a man of conscience. I would love to see Vincent become the architect of the subterranean world, gathering together outcasts and the broken to build a utopia below the city streets.
The worst thing the series can do in my opinion is to pander to recent trends where the two are so immersed in each other that nothing else matters, that is not love it is infatuation. We need to see two characters who share the same goal to create a more loving world where violence and evil do not have the last word and are willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary to ensure that it becomes a reality.
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Post by gena7373 on Mar 1, 2013 9:19:43 GMT -5
Thanks Darcy. I wonder if we also have some fans of the original series who have been conditioned to expect a more straight-forward romance. In the original series the beast was a paradigm of virtue who only had eyes for Catherine and was always so noble, loyal and true (a perfect role model for us guys especially today when fidelity seems to be the exception rather than the norm). EXACTLY, THAT WAS THE ONLY REASON I HATED THAT TRIANGLE...I GET MAKING IT RIGHT BUT THE KISSING AND AS FAR AS THEY TOOK IT MADE HIM AN ORDINARY (MAN) IF YOU WILL...SORRY (LOL) Vincent was a rock Catherine could always depend upon. What I especially enjoyed was that two characters seemed to be two whole persons (even if Catherine was a bit of a damsel in distress - a regrettable plot device). Since they were complete as individuals, there moments together could really shine. They were not together because they of emotional baggage, compulsion or some misguided attempt to complete one another. The best part though was their relationship was never selfish, they never became so absorbed in each other that they stopped caring about addressing injustice, their love in fact made them more compassionate to others as true love should always do. It gave them the strength to take personal risks in order to ensure other people's happiness, even at the expense of their own. Their love is so great that it cannot be confined to two people it spills out into the world reshaping it according to the same values they live by so that a few lives can be touched and changed for the better. PERFECT! What I find interesting about this new series is that although its attempts to grapple with the messiness of the world we live in today, the intrinsic goodness of the characters remains but here there characters are more of a work in progress than a finished product. TRUE DAT! Vincent in the original series was born a beast while in the modern incarnation Vincent became one much later on. The beast's strength of character comes from wrestling with his condition and its repercussions. Since he knows what it is to be 'ugly and unlovable' he developed an extraordinary compassion for others especially the outcast and the rejected. The subterranean world revealed a seeming contradiction because in its confined spaces there was greater freedom than in the world above. It was such a contrast to the violence and evils found on the New York streets. Vincent sought to bring some of these values to the world above - to show that different values could shape the way people live. The present Vincent has a long way to go before he will become that paradigm of virtue, but it will be an interesting journey as we see how Vincent's own struggle to accept the beast within, and how the experience of rejection and persecution which it has brought him, allows him to tame his beastly nature with compassion and channel it into confronting injustice. Vincent will learn a long the way that his confinement is not imprisonment, because he is free in so long as he is a man of conscience. I would love to see Vincent become the architect of the subterranean world, gathering together outcasts and the broken to build a utopia below the city streets. THAT WOULD BE AWESOME The worst thing the series can do in my opinion is to pander to recent trends where the two are so immersed in each other that nothing else matters, that is not love it is infatuation. We need to see two characters who share the same goal to create a more loving world where violence and evil do not have the last word and are willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary to ensure that it becomes a reality. WELL SAID....
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Darcy
Detective
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Post by Darcy on Mar 1, 2013 9:35:43 GMT -5
Great thoughts to ponder, batbfan... I, too, was a die hard, hard core fan of the original series - I actually never thought I could love anything more, until now. You're so right when you describe how unselfish and deep their love was, how it made them better people in their individual lives, as well as their life together.
There was a romantic tragedy about their situation that is lacking in the new BATB series - basically because Vincent was a lion-man and real, long-term physical intimacy wasn't possible. (I'm still not exactly sure how Catherine got pregnant, since she was stunned at becoming so...
That said, we know that today's writers/producers cannot just make a duplicate show based on the previous one. In many ways they have kept some of the essential ingredients, and magic. But I do love the new VinCat relationship! They are definitely flawed, and in that way they are more relate-able. We can identify with their struggles (though, to be sure, our DNA isn't mutating at an exponential rate!) and take to heart some of the lessons they are learning - wholly trusting someone, sacrificing for not only the one we love, but for the good of others in general, accepting life's difficulties with courage and resolve, to name a few.
Of course, most fans are quite obsessed with the will they/won't they question, but when that's resolved (and it sure looks like it will be soon) I do hope the writers will explore the many facets of true "love" , and not so much the infatuation side of things (as you so aptly put it). Don't get me wrong, I swoon as much as the next girl at that rooftop scene, and am absolutely dying for the next installment in a couple of weeks! But in order for this show to be genuine and long-lasting, I feel we're going to need more far-reaching plot and character development - other people's plights, and the acts of unselfish help and heroics (heroism?) that our two leads will bring to those situations.
I'm curious to know your take on the writing, batbfan, especially the dialogue. I have found it to be witty and so well-thought out. I do feel it is an improvement over the 80's series. And the acting is truly compelling, especially that of Vincent, Catherine and certainly JT!
I see that we're posting all this on "Cold Turkey". We should probably move it over to a more general thread... Though I did watch Cold Turkey last night, and do love how the story changes direction in that one!
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Post by ArwenFan on Mar 1, 2013 23:24:19 GMT -5
Thanks Darcy. I wonder if we also have some fans of the original series who have been conditioned to expect a more straight-forward romance. In the original series the beast was a paradigm of virtue who only had eyes for Catherine and was always so noble, loyal and true (a perfect role model for us guys especially today when fidelity seems to be the exception rather than the norm). Vincent was a rock Catherine could always depend upon. What I especially enjoyed was that two characters seemed to be two whole persons (even if Catherine was a bit of a damsel in distress - a regrettable plot device). Since they were complete as individuals, there moments together could really shine. They were not together because they of emotional baggage, compulsion or some misguided attempt to complete one another. The best part though was their relationship was never selfish, they never became so absorbed in each other that they stopped caring about addressing injustice, their love in fact made them more compassionate to others as true love should always do. It gave them the strength to take personal risks in order to ensure other people's happiness, even at the expense of their own. Their love is so great that it cannot be confined to two people it spills out into the world reshaping it according to the same values they live by so that a few lives can be touched and changed for the better. What I find interesting about this new series is that although its attempts to grapple with the messiness of the world we live in today, the intrinsic goodness of the characters remains but here there characters are more of a work in progress than a finished product. Vincent in the original series was born a beast while in the modern incarnation Vincent became one much later on. The beast's strength of character comes from wrestling with his condition and its repercussions. Since he knows what it is to be 'ugly and unlovable' he developed an extraordinary compassion for others especially the outcast and the rejected. The subterranean world revealed a seeming contradiction because in its confined spaces there was greater freedom than in the world above. It was such a contrast to the violence and evils found on the New York streets. Vincent sought to bring some of these values to the world above - to show that different values could shape the way people live. The present Vincent has a long way to go before he will become that paradigm of virtue, but it will be an interesting journey as we see how Vincent's own struggle to accept the beast within, and how the experience of rejection and persecution which it has brought him, allows him to tame his beastly nature with compassion and channel it into confronting injustice. Vincent will learn a long the way that his confinement is not imprisonment, because he is free in so long as he is a man of conscience. I would love to see Vincent become the architect of the subterranean world, gathering together outcasts and the broken to build a utopia below the city streets. The worst thing the series can do in my opinion is to pander to recent trends where the two are so immersed in each other that nothing else matters, that is not love it is infatuation. We need to see two characters who share the same goal to create a more loving world where violence and evil do not have the last word and are willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary to ensure that it becomes a reality. Extraordinary insight. I am a fan of the original show and I could not have described the heart of the series any better.
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Post by batbfan on Mar 2, 2013 2:32:32 GMT -5
Thanks Gena, Arwenfan and Darcy - I had intended to write a short message but my musings were a little longer than usual.
Darcy, I will try to refrain from including any spoilers as I reply to your post. I think you are spot-on when you speak about the relatability of the characters in the CW version. I felt an almost immediate sense of connection with the leads and the secondary characters. With the exception Dr Evans who unfortunately I have not warmed to so far (but he may yet redeem himself). He seems too wrapped up in the cross-species DNA research to the detriment of character development.
JT is a welcome addition - he has great lines, I would like see more interaction between him and Catherine as I think they make a good team and their screen time together is sorely lacking. JT has great lines delivered with aplomb by Austin Basis.
Kristin Kreuk and Jay Ryan were great casting choices. You can't help but root for them to be together - their scenes always feel very natural. I recognise both of them from other shows they have appeared in and they have come so far as actors.
Kristin portrays Catherine extremely well, she comes across as strong yet tender, steadfast without being foolhardy or reckless. In this series especially she has shown that she can convey such a broad range of emotions in a way which matches the scene perfectly. I feel her portrayal allows us to take Catherine's side no matter what which is perhaps the most essential ingredient for a good protagonist in any series. Kristin is a real beauty, I just can't take my eyes off her when she is on screen, she's a classy lady.
The beast role requires someone who can flip from Anger, aggression and edginess to profound tenderness and warmth - not easy for an actor to do. Jay comes across as suitably stolid (there is a lot weighing upon him) and he delivers the emotions in very subtle ways. He has a kind of (for want of a better word) seething quality to his performance which matches Vincent's backstory - he is angry at what has been done to him and he is always fearful that his personal relationships may cause others their lives. I like to see the hints of Vincent's former personality which lies beneath the surface weighed down by his worry, fear and anger. I think my favourite scene of his is when he helps the children in the basement who need medical attention - he has a great bedside manner and a very paternal way about him.
I think the writing overall is strong. Catherine and Vincent's relationship has been for the most part well-conceived and executed. However the investigation storylines are in my opinion absolutely dreadful and are in an urgent need of repair. They just feel so cut and dry and don't really contribute to the overall storyline. Perhaps Catherine needs to investigate some cases which are linked to Muirfield’s activities - perhaps they are involved in some criminal activities and Catherine can slowly work to bring them down piecing together there master-plan as it were. I think this would provide the opportunity to bring more of a sci-fi element to the cases which would certainly make them more interesting. I believe an organization as shady as Muirfield will have eggs in many baskets. If they do go this route, I think it would be best if Catherine is the only one truly aware of the real nature of the cases, for other’s at the precinct they simply appear as regular criminal cases.
I agree that the dialogue has been wonderful but I’ve noticed that it is strongest when it is zippy and light-hearted, the more poignant moments however are more hit and miss but that said, the most recent episode offered some very moving scenes and the dialogue elicited the right mixture of emotions.
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Darcy
Detective
Posts: 236
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Post by Darcy on Mar 2, 2013 7:33:34 GMT -5
Again, really enjoy reading all your thoughts... you give us a lot to ponder, batbfan. I agree totally about Evan, still waiting to warm up to him.
Well, we have 12 days to go.
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