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Post by yfaruqi on Dec 3, 2013 10:08:56 GMT -5
As far as Kern's S2 plan goes, the ratings were bad to begin with. The move to Monday only made it worse. Maintaining the status quo was getting them them nowhere, so they had to do something drastic. S1 was pretty much a modern retelling of the story from the 1987 series, which didn't turn out to be be a commercial success. So they are now going for a show that focuses a lot more on the Scifi/Fantasy/Action-adventure elements and less on the Romance and Drama, i.e changing the show to be much more like the CW's current and previous commercial successes - SPN, Smallville, TVD, Arrow - possibly in the hope that it will draw in some of the audience and fans of those shows. I think that was the general idea to get people watching the show who didn't care for season 1. In terms of numbers there are a lot more people who didn't watch the first season than there were who loved it. TVD and Arrow have a lot more viewers and probably they wanted to appeal to that audience. There probably is some overlap among the audience (I actually like Arrow) but in general it is a different audience I think and most people who like TVD aren't the ones who watched season 1 (not all of it anyway). There were also a lot of people who didn't watch season 1 after the first episode and from what I could tell it was due to the fact that it wasn't true to the fairy tale or the original show (the beast was not someone a normal girl would fall for unlike Vincent who was basically a man with a hidden beastly side but a man nonetheless). That could be part of the reason why they made Vincent 2.0 unlovable, the problem is the original beast was unlovable just because of his appearance and not because he was inconsiderate and uncaring. Even if everything went according to plan and we had the larger audience watching the show and it became a commercial success it wouldn't be the show we fell in love with. Maybe there is a better way of balancing getting a bigger audience without changing the characters but I'm not sure if that has been done successfully in the past..
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Dec 3, 2013 10:22:29 GMT -5
Hey people have read All comments and there are a couple of things i wanted to see I personally think whatever direction the show had this year the ratings would be low, few people tuned in to watch in thé first place without knowing the direction of the show, those who tuned in stayed since ratings are steady. Very low but steady. If the show was on a better day and had received some promotion it would have done better Also - imo the show this year is better technically, writing wise and looks much more professional. I still think it stands out and is still not thé same as every other show. I also think the romance is thé focus of the show still though it is tragic romance and i also like the complexity of the character portrayal. The fact that the idealistic versión of love we had last season is not there does not make the show a worse Show imo. I think we will get the ideal romantic element back and obviously we All Miss it but i personally like where i think they are going with this
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condor
Army Recruit
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Post by condor on Dec 3, 2013 10:37:58 GMT -5
There were also a lot of people who didn't watch season 1 after the first episode and from what I could tell it was due to the fact that it wasn't true to the fairy tale or the original show (the beast was not someone a normal girl would fall for unlike Vincent who was basically a man with a hidden beastly side but a man nonetheless). That could be part of the reason why they made Vincent 2.0 unlovable, the problem is the original beast was unlovable just because of his appearance and not because he was inconsiderate and uncaring. That was one of the major problems that S1 had. I'm as much of a romantic (and a Jay Ryan fan) as the next guy but you can't have BATB without an actual Beast.
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Post by yfaruqi on Dec 3, 2013 11:44:11 GMT -5
That was one of the major problems that S1 had. I'm as much of a romantic (and a Jay Ryan fan) as the next guy but you can't have BATB without an actual Beast. I can understand that, it's just that for better or worse that was what Vincent's character was in this show and at least he had some things in common with the original beast in that he had a good heart and had to live in the shadows almost alone. Vincent 2.0 is even farther away from the original beast in my opinion, yes he can change into a beast and rip hearts out literally but he is more like a typical inconsiderate guy than a beast and has no problem being social when he is not ripping hearts out..
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riv
Rookie Cop
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Post by riv on Dec 3, 2013 13:31:28 GMT -5
I really liked the show from season 1 because of the romance and that is why I watched the show to begin with. I love romance. I thought it was great that Vincent watched over Catherine for 10 years. I don't mind shows with drama and obstacles as long as the romance doesn't stop and it doesn't change the main character's personality. And Vincent (as it appears now) has no love for Catherine or no concern for her safety, what so ever, that was very clear in episode 8. What ever he felt for her in the episode "Re-union" seems to have disappeared when Tori came on the show. That is what I perceive when I saw this last episode.
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Post by sunshine978 on Dec 4, 2013 0:59:03 GMT -5
As far as Kern's S2 plan goes, the ratings were bad to begin with. The move to Monday only made it worse. Maintaining the status quo was getting them them nowhere, so they had to do something drastic. S1 was pretty much a modern retelling of the story from the 1987 series, which didn't turn out to be be a commercial success. So they are now going for a show that focuses a lot more on the Scifi/Fantasy/Action-adventure elements and less on the Romance and Drama, i.e changing the show to be much more like the CW's current and previous commercial successes - SPN, Smallville, TVD, Arrow - possibly in the hope that it will draw in some of the audience and fans of those shows. I think that was the general idea to get people watching the show who didn't care for season 1. In terms of numbers there are a lot more people who didn't watch the first season than there were who loved it. TVD and Arrow have a lot more viewers and probably they wanted to appeal to that audience. There probably is some overlap among the audience (I actually like Arrow) but in general it is a different audience I think and most people who like TVD aren't the ones who watched season 1 (not all of it anyway). There were also a lot of people who didn't watch season 1 after the first episode and from what I could tell it was due to the fact that it wasn't true to the fairy tale or the original show (the beast was not someone a normal girl would fall for unlike Vincent who was basically a man with a hidden beastly side but a man nonetheless). That could be part of the reason why they made Vincent 2.0 unlovable, the problem is the original beast was unlovable just because of his appearance and not because he was inconsiderate and uncaring. Even if everything went according to plan and we had the larger audience watching the show and it became a commercial success it wouldn't be the show we fell in love with. Maybe there is a better way of balancing getting a bigger audience without changing the characters but I'm not sure if that has been done successfully in the past.. I've been thinking about the lack of viewers too and I have been wondering if it has something to do with the fact that the CW Network is known for their tv shows having love triangles. I didn't know this but so many people, even Kristin Kreuk said, "This is the CW, you have to have love triangles". For people who are aware of this and who do NOT like love triangles, the fact that BatB is a CW show could have someone to do with low viewership. Had I been aware that the CW is notorious for love triangles, I would not have watched BatB because I absolutely detest them. Who would have ever thought that both Vincent and CAt would have love interests. I never did. Remember how ratings kept dropping during and after the ALex arc. I think it's dropping again....with Tori.
Someone on another forum said that she decided not to watch Season 2 when the announcement was made in the summer about the Tori arc and that she would be considered a 'seductive devil'. I also considered not watching it too but I decided to watch it and take a break during the arc....Of course there would be other factors causing people to either not watch or stop watching. I think love triangles are one of them.
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Post by sunshine978 on Dec 4, 2013 2:21:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I have some sympathy for Brad Kern actually. He's in a tough spot and is taking a lot of flack he doesn't deserve. They hire him to revamp a show that performed poorly in season 1.....and he's doing that.....unsuccessfully to this point since the direction of the show is completely different and not acceptable to many fans. However, they didn't hire him to maintain the status-quo! I don't think any judgements can be made about his performance/job until the season has ended. Mr. Kern is in a "no win" situation. The BATB "re-boot" was planned to gain more viewers. The problem is that not enough promotion was done by the network to let potential viewers know that BATB was no longer an "epic romance" series. Therefore, very few, if any, new viewers tune in. In the meantime, the "re-boot" is causing the loss of the die-hard fans who loved the show and worked so hard to win a Season 2 for BATB. I don't feel sorry for Mr. Kern. I feel sorry for the fans/viewers. The Season 2 "re-boot" has caused much controversy, the characters are unrecognizable, and the romance and "magic" are gone. Ratings are lower than they were last year (partly because of the change to Monday night), and although many Beasties (like myself) are loyal no matter what, BATB no longer has a strong, unwavering fan base (who gained them a PCA which also helped win a Season 2). Bottom line is that Season 2 is lacking in the "epic love" and "romance" that the show was built on, thus losing fans rather than gaining them, and making a Season 3 very unlikely. My fear is that the fans/viewers who worked so hard for a Season 2 will never get to see VinCat reunite as BATB will be cancelled before the writers "long range re-boot" ever comes to fruition. You hit the nail on the head - not enough promotion was done by the network BEFORE BatB started and DURING the series so many people didn't know about the show . And that IS the issue I believe! The producers think it's because the show is lacking drama/action, but now there's both and ratings are still low.
I never would have known about BAtB 2012 if SHowcase didn't advertise it so many times. In fact, I was NOT a fan of the 1980's BatB but when I saw that Vincent was human in the 2012 version, I was definitely intrigued and became hooked after the Pilot. So advertising is definitely a factor.
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Post by sunshine978 on Dec 4, 2013 2:26:06 GMT -5
Mr. Kern is in a "no win" situation. The BATB "re-boot" was planned to gain more viewers. The problem is that not enough promotion was done by the network to let potential viewers know that BATB was no longer an "epic romance" series. Therefore, very few, if any, new viewers tune in. In the meantime, the "re-boot" is causing the loss of the die-hard fans who loved the show and worked so hard to win a Season 2 for BATB. I don't feel sorry for Mr. Kern. I feel sorry for the fans/viewers. The Season 2 "re-boot" has caused much controversy, the characters are unrecognizable, and the romance and "magic" are gone. Ratings are lower than they were last year (partly because of the change to Monday night), and although many Beasties (like myself) are loyal no matter what, BATB no longer has a strong, unwavering fan base (who gained them a PCA which also helped win a Season 2). Bottom line is that Season 2 is lacking in the "epic love" and "romance" that the show was built on, thus losing fans rather than gaining them, and making a Season 3 very unlikely. My fear is that the fans/viewers who worked so hard for a Season 2 will never get to see VinCat reunite as BATB will be cancelled before the writers "long range re-boot" ever comes to fruition. You hit the nail on the head - not enough promotion was done by the network BEFORE BatB started and DURING the series so many people didn't know about the show . And that IS the issue I believe! The producers think it's because the show is lacking drama/action, but now there's both and ratings are still low.
I never would have known about BAtB 2012 if SHowcase didn't advertise it so many times. In fact, I was NOT a fan of the 1980's BatB but when I saw that Vincent was human in the 2012 version, I was definitely intrigued and became hooked after the Pilot. So advertising is definitely a factor. And look at what they've done to the show now - they have ruined the integrity of it, the epic romance is gone, the characters are unrecognizable/unlikeable, they've added much hated love triangles and many of us don't feel the same way about BatB anymore. They could have at least tried advertising it more before many such drastic changes.
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Dec 4, 2013 3:07:09 GMT -5
Mr. Kern is in a "no win" situation. The BATB "re-boot" was planned to gain more viewers. The problem is that not enough promotion was done by the network to let potential viewers know that BATB was no longer an "epic romance" series. Therefore, very few, if any, new viewers tune in. In the meantime, the "re-boot" is causing the loss of the die-hard fans who loved the show and worked so hard to win a Season 2 for BATB. I don't feel sorry for Mr. Kern. I feel sorry for the fans/viewers. The Season 2 "re-boot" has caused much controversy, the characters are unrecognizable, and the romance and "magic" are gone. Ratings are lower than they were last year (partly because of the change to Monday night), and although many Beasties (like myself) are loyal no matter what, BATB no longer has a strong, unwavering fan base (who gained them a PCA which also helped win a Season 2). Bottom line is that Season 2 is lacking in the "epic love" and "romance" that the show was built on, thus losing fans rather than gaining them, and making a Season 3 very unlikely. My fear is that the fans/viewers who worked so hard for a Season 2 will never get to see VinCat reunite as BATB will be cancelled before the writers "long range re-boot" ever comes to fruition. You hit the nail on the head - not enough promotion was done by the network BEFORE BatB started and DURING the series so many people didn't know about the show . And that IS the issue I believe! The producers think it's because the show is lacking drama/action, but now there's both and ratings are still low.
I never would have known about BAtB 2012 if SHowcase didn't advertise it so many times. In fact, I was NOT a fan of the 1980's BatB but when I saw that Vincent was human in the 2012 version, I was definitely intrigued and became hooked after the Pilot. So advertising is definitely a factor. i agree it is the monday nights shift and most importantly complete and utter lack of promotion from the CW... and the fact that viewers who had watched the pilot last year did not like it and did not give it another go
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Post by Laura on Dec 4, 2013 4:20:30 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head - not enough promotion was done by the network BEFORE BatB started and DURING the series so many people didn't know about the show . And that IS the issue I believe! The producers think it's because the show is lacking drama/action, but now there's both and ratings are still low.
I never would have known about BAtB 2012 if SHowcase didn't advertise it so many times. In fact, I was NOT a fan of the 1980's BatB but when I saw that Vincent was human in the 2012 version, I was definitely intrigued and became hooked after the Pilot. So advertising is definitely a factor. i agree it is the monday nights shift and most importantly complete and utter lack of promotion from the CW... and the fact that viewers who had watched the pilot last year did not like it and did not give it another go I totally agree with you guys! As I've said before, I always feel like the CW thinks of BATB as this adopted child, who's been kept in the attic, and who is smart and full of potential, but has never been given enough opportunities. Whereas the other kids (yeah! their favorite lucrative one: TVD and also Arrow), who are not that smart or that good, have been supported unconditionally and given so many chances. It's just not fair! Sometimes I think the CW has simply forgotten the fact that BATB exists. It really makes me angry. OK, enough with my venting. Back to voting now
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Dec 4, 2013 7:32:39 GMT -5
Hey guys - was not sure where to post this so please feel free to move, create a new thread etc
I was listening to some BATB season 2 songs and remembering some great season 2 moments, We have been criticising season 2 but there have been some great moments. which were your favourite scenes of season 2??
Mine are: 1) end of episode 1, Catherine and Vincent in Cat's house when she burst crying 2) end of Hothead by the memorial 3) Catherine shooting Vincent and his reaction 4) generally the last six minutes of episode 8 5) the elevator scene in epsisode 3, Liar Liar 6) the kidnapping scene in episode 2 (all of it lol) 7) the kiss in Hothead before vincent goes in the building to save his nephew 8) the scene in hothead where he saves the nephew 9) the dance scene in liar liar 10) the dream sequences, episode 1 of cat and episode 7 of vincent 11)the scene between cat and her dad in episode 8 where he tells her he will leave the country
Of these my absolute favourites I think are 1, 2, 3 and 4
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Dec 4, 2013 10:44:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I have some sympathy for Brad Kern actually. He's in a tough spot and is taking a lot of flack he doesn't deserve. They hire him to revamp a show that performed poorly in season 1.....and he's doing that.....unsuccessfully to this point since the direction of the show is completely different and not acceptable to many fans. However, they didn't hire him to maintain the status-quo! I don't think any judgements can be made about his performance/job until the season has ended. Mr. Kern is in a "no win" situation. The BATB "re-boot" was planned to gain more viewers. The problem is that not enough promotion was done by the network to let potential viewers know that BATB was no longer an "epic romance" series. Therefore, very few, if any, new viewers tune in. In the meantime, the "re-boot" is causing the loss of the die-hard fans who loved the show and worked so hard to win a Season 2 for BATB. I don't feel sorry for Mr. Kern. I feel sorry for the fans/viewers. The Season 2 "re-boot" has caused much controversy, the characters are unrecognizable, and the romance and "magic" are gone. Ratings are lower than they were last year (partly because of the change to Monday night), and although many Beasties (like myself) are loyal no matter what, BATB no longer has a strong, unwavering fan base (who gained them a PCA which also helped win a Season 2). Bottom line is that Season 2 is lacking in the "epic love" and "romance" that the show was built on, thus losing fans rather than gaining them, and making a Season 3 very unlikely. My fear is that the fans/viewers who worked so hard for a Season 2 will never get to see VinCat reunite as BATB will be cancelled before the writers "long range re-boot" ever comes to fruition. Yes, THIS, thank you. Which is EXACTLY why they should stop wasting time on Gabe and Tori and bring it back to the epic love, romance and JTnT Snark and friendship. Let's get to know the characters we LOVE better and stop wasting precious time on plot devices and pointless love triangle/square story arcs. Time wasted is time wasted. Period.
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Post by yfaruqi on Dec 4, 2013 11:54:01 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the lack of viewers too and I have been wondering if it has something to do with the fact that the CW Network is known for their tv shows having love triangles. I didn't know this but so many people, even Kristin Kreuk said, "This is the CW, you have to have love triangles". For people who are aware of this and who do NOT like love triangles, the fact that BatB is a CW show could have someone to do with low viewership. Had I been aware that the CW is notorious for love triangles, I would not have watched BatB because I absolutely detest them. Who would have ever thought that both Vincent and CAt would have love interests. I never did. Remember how ratings kept dropping during and after the ALex arc. I think it's dropping again....with Tori.
Someone on another forum said that she decided not to watch Season 2 when the announcement was made in the summer about the Tori arc and that she would be considered a 'seductive devil'. I also considered not watching it too but I decided to watch it and take a break during the arc....Of course there would be other factors causing people to either not watch or stop watching. I think love triangles are one of them.
I don't think it's necessarily that all CW shows have to have a love triangle, Supernatural doesn't have one and while Legend of the Seeker wasn't a CW show it did air on CW and didn't. Probably in general most long running CW shows do have a love triangle and I think that's part of the reason why we have this situation in season 2, pretty much all long running CW shows (with the exception of Supernatual) have an element of drama based on love triangles or quadruples. Also there is a right way of doing things as well in my mind, I never had a problem finding out about Tori cause I was under the mistaken impression she would be a conflicted character mentored by Vincent and Catherine and as such might try to spin her web around Vincent but she turns out to be someone who can understand and relate to Vincent on a level Cat can't compete (unless of course Gabe is successful in killing off Vincent's beast side and he would live happily ever after with Cat until Gabe realizes what he has done in the next season and comes back to seek vengeance and come between VinCat again). Getting back to love triangles I would say the ratings were low in season 1 partly because Vincent wasn't a true beast which irked a lot of people from the pilot and probably a lot of those never watched the show again as the ratings would suggest. The problem is that folks like us who enjoyed season 1 was at least partly due to the fact it was different than other typical CW shows and just had two good old fashioned honest good people as the leads. Apparently good doesn't sell well in the market as it can be boring and doesn't have enough drama so now we have two flawed realistic characters in the lead which is more practical and in theory should lead to some of the audiences of shows like TVD watching and they may very well enjoy the second season better problem is how to get them interested. In any case those of us who liked the fairy tale would have to settle with season 1 and hope we get back to that at some point...
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condor
Army Recruit
Posts: 109
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Post by condor on Dec 5, 2013 10:20:49 GMT -5
I don't think it's necessarily that all CW shows have to have a love triangle, Supernatural doesn't have one and while Legend of the Seeker wasn't a CW show it did air on CW and didn't. Probably in general most long running CW shows do have a love triangle and I think that's part of the reason why we have this situation in season 2, pretty much all long running CW shows (with the exception of Supernatual) have an element of drama based on love triangles or quadruples. Also there is a right way of doing things as well in my mind, I never had a problem finding out about Tori cause I was under the mistaken impression she would be a conflicted character mentored by Vincent and Catherine and as such might try to spin her web around Vincent but she turns out to be someone who can understand and relate to Vincent on a level Cat can't compete (unless of course Gabe is successful in killing off Vincent's beast side and he would live happily ever after with Cat until Gabe realizes what he has done in the next season and comes back to seek vengeance and come between VinCat again). Getting back to love triangles I would say the ratings were low in season 1 partly because Vincent wasn't a true beast which irked a lot of people from the pilot and probably a lot of those never watched the show again as the ratings would suggest. The problem is that folks like us who enjoyed season 1 was at least partly due to the fact it was different than other typical CW shows and just had two good old fashioned honest good people as the leads. Apparently good doesn't sell well in the market as it can be boring and doesn't have enough drama so now we have two flawed realistic characters in the lead which is more practical and in theory should lead to some of the audiences of shows like TVD watching and they may very well enjoy the second season better problem is how to get them interested. In any case those of us who liked the fairy tale would have to settle with season 1 and hope we get back to that at some point... Most people don't want to watch VinCat fall in love and live happily ever after. They want more drama and they also don't want to see the same old story repeat itself. The writers' solution to this is problem is to not focus on the traditional beauty and the beast story but instead play it out as part of a much larger story which becomes the actual focus of the show. This is why we have a lot of new recurring characters coming in to the second half of S2. The love triangles are only there to keep VinCat apart since they want to wait until the introduction of the mythology to bring them back together.
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Post by katiebeast S3 <3 on Dec 5, 2013 15:22:31 GMT -5
Most people don't want to watch VinCat fall in love and live happily ever after. They want more drama and they also don't want to see the same old story repeat itself. The writers' solution to this is problem is to not focus on the traditional beauty and the beast story but instead play it out as part of a much larger story which becomes the actual focus of the show. This is why we have a lot of new recurring characters coming in to the second half of S2. The love triangles are only there to keep VinCat apart since they want to wait until the introduction of the mythology to bring them back together. I get all that, and I understand why they can not be together for the moment, but I don't see the necessity of the love triangles. That being said, I am really curieus about the mythology angle...
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