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Post by Suzieq ❤️ Beastie on Nov 4, 2013 0:12:16 GMT -5
Here is the problem - this issue has nothing to do with V "after everything that has happened to him". This happened BEFORE all the bad things happened to him from M. Second problem - these things don't match up with last season's "canon" if you will. We were made to believe the character of V was something specific last year. That is why the Alex arc hit so many people as hard as it did. It changed what we were led to believe was true. This is just another instance where we are left to doubt that character again. Thus the harsh reaction. It is like the writers aren't trying to be consistent with what they have already told us before. It is not judgemental - V is a character, not a real person. It is a plea for some consistency! I know the staff at BATB is not entirely the same, but I think they need to have SOME continuity between the two very different seasons. You can lose viewership if they don't have it. I agree julz.....well said. I just get irritated with writers that stray too much away from the core character traits that they have established. I can accept Vincent 2.0 for some irregularities.....but as he gets his memory back lets not show things that will negate Vincent's "do the right thing" core. That is why Jay said in an interview.....what he does is borderline, he will be crossing some boundaries......this could change how I may feel about him. Same goes with Cat. So, the writers need to understand that they do need to be consistent or the story becomes convoluted and filled with plotholes. *just my two cents........ Question: Is it me or is Cat and JT's relationship just very snippy this year. The promos just shows so much irritation between JT and Cat......or is it just me?
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Nov 4, 2013 0:32:24 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to chime in here. I found a download and I watched it. I think, to a certain extent some of the Alex arc was poorly portrayed... and I would have to go back and rewatch some of the between the scenes scenes from S1 to describe the state of their relationship when he left. But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. This Gabriela person isn't important, that much is very clear, she is only important because Zach pushes Vincent to remember her so that he can turn on Vincent. It is also so that Zach can justify hurting both Vincent and Catherine... She may be a tangent, but it really isn't about her. It has more to do with how Zach lost his humanity and ultimately how Catherine helps Vincent find his. So, in typical beastie fashion, we may be missing the point. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just telling it as I see it.
Remembering the "sexy scene" with Gabriela was just the trigger point for Zach... It wasn't about Vincent's memories of her. And seeing how lost Zach is - who he has become - in the absence of her, well that brings it all back for Vincent, to Catherine. It is actually kind of romantic.
That is my official two cents. Watch before you make snap judgments. It is sad to see Vincent so desperate to regain his memories, that his judgment or instincts actually seem a bit off with Zach. He wants so much to remember his friend, that he doesn't see the enemy standing right in front of him. It's sad. I'm sure I will have more to say tomorrow, but I just wanted to try to put out the fire.
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Post by pippin on Nov 4, 2013 0:40:46 GMT -5
Maybe I'll feel differently after watching the episode, but I don't see a problem or contradiction with Vincent's character since we really don't know anything about what he was like before he was turned into a beast. We only met the Vincent who spent his time hiding and living in fear and felt like a monster unworthy of anyone's love. Maybe prior to Muirfield, he was a jerk. He did just up and leave his mother and Alex without saying goodbye after 911. Maybe he truly felt bad about being with another woman or maybe he was a two timing ass who wanted some action while keeping the nice girl at home. Beast Vincent was the one who felt bad and tried to do the right thing with Alex in his own terribly misguided way.
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Post by crazyforv on Nov 4, 2013 0:43:16 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to chime in here. I found a download and I watched it. I think, to a certain extent some of the Alex arc was poorly portrayed... and I would have to go back and rewatch some of the between the scenes scenes from S1 to describe the state of their relationship when he left. But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. This Gabriela person isn't important, that much is very clear, she is only important because Zach pushes Vincent to remember her so that he can turn on Vincent. It is also so that Zach can justify hurting both Vincent and Catherine... She may be a tangent, but it really isn't about her. It has more to do with how Zach lost his humanity and ultimately how Catherine helps Vincent find his. So, in typical beastie fashion, we may be missing the point. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just telling it as I see it. Remembering the "sexy scene" with Gabriela was just the trigger point for Zach... It wasn't about Vincent's memories of her. And seeing how lost Zach is - who he has become - in the absence of her, well that brings it all back for Vincent, to Catherine. It is actually kind of romantic. That is my official two cents. Watch before you make snap judgments. It is sad to see Vincent so desperate to regain his memories, that his judgment or instincts actually seem a bit off with Zach. He wants so much to remember his friend, that he doesn't see the enemy standing right in front of him. It's sad. I'm sure I will have more to say tomorrow, but I just wanted to try to put out the fire. Agree with all your points! Thanks for taking the words out of my head and writing them down.
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Post by DeadLikeWindsorJulz on Nov 4, 2013 0:47:00 GMT -5
But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. Here is where the confusion apparently lies. From reading the letters V sent to Alex in 1x10, I was under the opposite impression. I believed they were still together, even though he signed up for the military without talking it over with her first. It was a snap decision on his part to enlist after 9/11, and he didn't include her in it. But in the letters we were shown in 1x10, he told Alex that he loved her, that she was his fiancé, and that some of the guys were (not a direct quote here) wanting to come to their upcoming wedding. The writers keep changing their minds about what they want to be true about these characters. It is confusing and inconsistent. If they portrayed certain things as absolutes in season 1, they need to try to keep to that. I'm all for adding new viewers, but not at the expense of losing your previous, dedicated ones.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Nov 4, 2013 0:52:35 GMT -5
^Thanks crazyforv ! I think we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt as they fill in the missing pieces of these characters. Who is to say that Vincent's version of "doing the right thing" in the aftermath of 911 and the loss of both his brothers, wasn't to pull away from Alex so she wouldn't go on the downward spiral with him? You know, maybe Alex tried to help him, and he started to drag her down with him...
My brother did a tour in Iraq, and it was a year or more between when the joined the military and when he actually deployed. And then another year, while he was overseas. I'm just saying, let's give them a minute to explain who Vincent was back then, before we get upset. Also, before we start throwing the words "cheater" around, let's consider the fact that Vincent and Alex weren't even together then...
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Post by kiki09 on Nov 4, 2013 0:56:54 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to chime in here. I found a download and I watched it. I think, to a certain extent some of the Alex arc was poorly portrayed... and I would have to go back and rewatch some of the between the scenes scenes from S1 to describe the state of their relationship when he left. But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. This Gabriela person isn't important, that much is very clear, she is only important because Zach pushes Vincent to remember her so that he can turn on Vincent. It is also so that Zach can justify hurting both Vincent and Catherine... She may be a tangent, but it really isn't about her. It has more to do with how Zach lost his humanity and ultimately how Catherine helps Vincent find his. So, in typical beastie fashion, we may be missing the point. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just telling it as I see it. Remembering the "sexy scene" with Gabriela was just the trigger point for Zach... It wasn't about Vincent's memories of her. And seeing how lost Zach is - who he has become - in the absence of her, well that brings it all back for Vincent, to Catherine. It is actually kind of romantic. That is my official two cents. Watch before you make snap judgments. It is sad to see Vincent so desperate to regain his memories, that his judgment or instincts actually seem a bit off with Zach. He wants so much to remember his friend, that he doesn't see the enemy standing right in front of him. It's sad. I'm sure I will have more to say tomorrow, but I just wanted to try to put out the fire. Agree with all your points! Thanks for taking the words out of my head and writing them down. Yes! I am with you spydancer and crazyforv. Especially if you haven't watched the ep and are going based off others reaction to it, it will taint the way you watch it. If you go in hating Vincent for no reason, I don't think you will watch the ep with an open mind. Just my opinion. Peeps are way too quick to jump down Vincent's throat.
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Post by kiki09 on Nov 4, 2013 0:58:57 GMT -5
^Thanks crazyforv ! I think we should give the writers the benefit of the doubt as they fill in the missing pieces of these characters. Who is to say that Vincent's version of "doing the right thing" in the aftermath of 911 and the loss of both his brothers, wasn't to pull away from Alex so she wouldn't go on the downward spiral with him? You know, maybe Alex tried to help him, and he started to drag her down with him... My brother did a tour in Iraq, and it was a year or more between when the joined the military and when he actually deployed. And then another year, while he was overseas. I'm just saying, let's give them a minute to explain who Vincent was back then, before we get upset. Also, before we start throwing the words "cheater" around, let's consider the fact that Vincent and Alex weren't even together then... So true. We still do not actually have a clear representation of who Vincent was BEFORE this all happened and the writers are trying to piece it together.
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Post by SpydancerLovesVincat on Nov 4, 2013 1:01:38 GMT -5
But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. Here is where the confusion apparently lies. From reading the letters V sent to Alex in 1x10, I was under the opposite impression. I believed they were still together, even though he signed up for the military without talking it over with her first. It was a snap decision on his part to enlist after 9/11, and he didn't include her in it. But in the letters we were shown in 1x10, he told Alex that he loved her, that she was his fiancé, and that some of the guys were (not a direct quote here) wanting to come to their upcoming wedding. The writers keep changing their minds about what they want to be true about these characters. It is confusing and inconsistent. If they portrayed certain things as absolutes in season 1, they need to try to keep to that. I'm all for adding new viewers, but not at the expense of losing your previous, dedicated ones. Well I remember them talking about how Vincent ran away from everyone and everything - broke it off with Alex. I don't remember the exact scene or wording - and I remember the explanation was vague, but I think later on Vincent tried to make things right with her, and started sending the letters. There was a break in there, though, maybe 6 months, maybe a year, I don't know. It wasn't explained well. I think many people assume that because he sent her love letters while he was away, that they never broke up. I don't think the writers are changing their minds, I think we didn't ever know the full story. There was always a big backstory that wasn't explained - 911, the brothers dying, how Vincent reacted to it, Alex, Vincent leaving her to join the military... etc... eventually he did the right thing with her, though, and tried to rekindle things through letters, etc. It was clear in how he acted with her during the whole story arc with Catherine, that he felt he had not treated her well when he left her to join the military... we need to fill in the puzzle pieces and find the missing parts of the story, that's all.
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Bunny21
Rookie Cop
VinCat is back!
Posts: 47
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Post by Bunny21 on Nov 4, 2013 1:02:33 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to chime in here. I found a download and I watched it. I think, to a certain extent some of the Alex arc was poorly portrayed... and I would have to go back and rewatch some of the between the scenes scenes from S1 to describe the state of their relationship when he left. But it was my understanding up until tonight, that he really left her when he left to join the army. Later, somehow they reconnected through letters/phone calls whatever. This is based on the impression I got during season 1. So, yes, they were on a break, and yes, he had some sort of a fling during that time. JT is there in Reunion to verify this part of the story. The love letters, obviously, came later. This Gabriela person isn't important, that much is very clear, she is only important because Zach pushes Vincent to remember her so that he can turn on Vincent. It is also so that Zach can justify hurting both Vincent and Catherine... She may be a tangent, but it really isn't about her. It has more to do with how Zach lost his humanity and ultimately how Catherine helps Vincent find his. So, in typical beastie fashion, we may be missing the point. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just telling it as I see it. Remembering the "sexy scene" with Gabriela was just the trigger point for Zach... It wasn't about Vincent's memories of her. And seeing how lost Zach is - who he has become - in the absence of her, well that brings it all back for Vincent, to Catherine. It is actually kind of romantic. That is my official two cents. Watch before you make snap judgments. It is sad to see Vincent so desperate to regain his memories, that his judgment or instincts actually seem a bit off with Zach. He wants so much to remember his friend, that he doesn't see the enemy standing right in front of him. It's sad. I'm sure I will have more to say tomorrow, but I just wanted to try to put out the fire. I was lucky and got to download it as well (Thank you Canadian friends that uploaded it ) . I would have to agree with you on the Alex thing but since we had to live through it, at least it made V sound like he was a committed man. I think this Gabriela thing was a total tangent. Even though you said it was not about her, I felt like the writers could have done a better job portraying the message they intended. I thought V was quick to forgive Zach for attacking Cat. I found that irritating. Look how long it's taking for V to trust Cat and all of a sudden, one memory and Zach is a "good guy". I feel like the writers are neglecting JT and V's friendship. Yes, they had a movie night in this episode but V still doesn't remember him. The writers had V remember his entire friendship with Zach before he remembers even 1 memory of JT. Really? The look on JT's face. And then when V told JT he can go home, ugh! I get it's a small detail but really? I dunno, I need to rewatch it.
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Post by kiki09 on Nov 4, 2013 1:10:06 GMT -5
I thought V was quick to forgive Zach for attacking Cat. I found that irritating. Look how long it's taking for V to trust Cat and all of a sudden, one memory and Zach is a "good guy". I feel like the writers are neglecting JT and V's friendship. Yes, they had a movie night in this episode but V still doesn't remember him. The writers had V remember his entire friendship with Zach before he remembers even 1 memory of JT. Really? The look on JT's face. And then when V told JT he can go home, ugh! I get it's a small detail but really? I dunno, I need to rewatch it. Yes he was quick to seemingly forgive Zach I was slightly ticked off there. But I see it as V just getting his memories back so sudden, finding a new friend and wanting to reconnect and get more memories. Even when he slighted JT at the bar (not good V) I think he wanted to try and bond with Zach to gain more memories. I can only imagine how that feels to get a memory flash and just wanting to do whatever it takes to regain more memories. That's how I saw that scene. But more Vincent and JT time is necessary. I think they are purposefully having him remember Zach because he was the beast of the week and he had not have some initial conflict about killing him.
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Post by DeadLikeWindsorJulz on Nov 4, 2013 1:11:21 GMT -5
We still do not actually have a clear representation of who Vincent was BEFORE this all happened and the writers are trying to piece it together. Maybe to you it seems like the writers are trying to piece together a storyline, but to me, it seems like they are picking random crap, throwing it up on the screen, and then seeing what sticks. It is confusing, inconsistent, and leaves a person saying "Huh?"
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Post by kiki09 on Nov 4, 2013 1:13:31 GMT -5
We still do not actually have a clear representation of who Vincent was BEFORE this all happened and the writers are trying to piece it together. Maybe to you it seems like the writers are trying to piece together a storyline, but to me, it seems like they are picking random crap, throwing it up on the screen, and then seeing what sticks. It is confusing, inconsistent, and leaves a person saying "Huh?" So finding out that Vincent was a firefighter at one point was 'inconsistent' and confusing?
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Post by roar20 on Nov 4, 2013 1:26:38 GMT -5
Maybe to you it seems like the writers are trying to piece together a storyline, but to me, it seems like they are picking random crap, throwing it up on the screen, and then seeing what sticks. It is confusing, inconsistent, and leaves a person saying "Huh?" So finding out that Vincent was a firefighter at one point was 'inconsistent' and confusing? I think it consistent, if all his brothers were firefighters, why did he follow in their footsteps? Cause that's what usually happens.
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Post by roar20 on Nov 4, 2013 1:26:51 GMT -5
Maybe to you it seems like the writers are trying to piece together a storyline, but to me, it seems like they are picking random crap, throwing it up on the screen, and then seeing what sticks. It is confusing, inconsistent, and leaves a person saying "Huh?" So finding out that Vincent was a firefighter at one point was 'inconsistent' and confusing? I think it consistent, if all his brothers were firefighters, why did he follow in their footsteps? Cause that's what usually happens.
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