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Post by Bill the beast on Jul 5, 2015 1:04:51 GMT -5
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 5, 2015 1:31:49 GMT -5
Another random observation, Cat's not wearing her engagement ring in the bed scene!
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Post by anapi -season3baby :) on Jul 5, 2015 1:58:18 GMT -5
Another random observation, Cat's not wearing her engagement ring in the bed scene! i am amazed by people's observation skills lol what about her moms ring
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 5, 2015 2:56:22 GMT -5
Another random observation, Cat's not wearing her engagement ring in the bed scene! i am amazed by people's observation skills lol what about her moms ring Yes, she is wearing her mom's ring. Watch her right hand.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jul 5, 2015 7:23:10 GMT -5
Heather/Nicole has a few good moments, but it's basically just a throwaway character that adds some eye candy to a show that already has plenty. Maybe she is already, but if I were Nicole I'd be lobbying for something more substantial. You may remember the silly scene in S1 with the tape measure. I would not say her purpose of being in the show is that of an eye candy though she is a beautiful girl. the aim is to add lightness to the show and she has served as a plot mover in the past - maybe not this season yet. but her more "immature" attitude is purposeful and something I personally enjoy -- not all characters in a show need to be fully rounded I guess there is no middle ground with Heather--either you like her dingy personality or you don't. She is literally a 5th wheel. I don't like dingbat characters, screwball comedy, romantic comedy...pretty much the comedy genre in general, so I hope BATB isn't going for "dramedy," because (IMO) that would suck.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jul 5, 2015 7:25:19 GMT -5
Another random observation, Cat's not wearing her engagement ring in the bed scene! Boo hiss to the continuity people.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 8:08:00 GMT -5
Yes, I mentioned the lack of the ring in my first comment on the episode....so annoying!!! I am in the "no issues with Heather" camp. To me she is a bit like the fool in Shakespeare's plays..everyone needs one in their life....and out of their mouth often come some unexpected jewels. I agree with you, Bill the beast, when it's a show I am not emotionally attached too...S2 was no better for me once I watched it as a whole....Like this season up to now, no episode is bad, bad....but something is just not working the way it should for me.
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Post by ebeline on Jul 5, 2015 18:17:31 GMT -5
Since I have watched this ep the first time and I have rewatched it again, I have found that it is not so easy for me to comment about. I do not know so exactly what I should think . I like the scene with the cousellor. The tender touches of VinCat I like the uncertainty and finally what represent VinCat - their love. Love when the cousellor say you both really love eachother and V answers more than anything. It´s so aawww. That´s VinCat S 1. The behavior of Cat I first thought how can she just behave so. After a few rewatches I still do not like it but now I understand her reason. She is so afraid losing V, losing their life together and the threat of Bob and Carol that she act like she act. The only way that is familiar to her - the cop she is. She admit this in the last scene to V when she talk about Bob and Carol. The last scene is great she admits that it is not easy for her to adjust and than his way of distraction LOL great way being distracted. I need to say maybe I am the only one who like it when V moves the quilt over them. It is so intimate and it shows that he excludes the outside world and they are only the two of them. He wants the focus on the two. The case of the week - well....... I do not reallly understand the behavior of JT and the relationship between Tess and JT doesn´t make sense for me. All in all this ep was not what I was expected and hoped but it was ok. VinCat relationship will become more and more what a relationship need to be grounded on love and trust. Still it is too little VinCat passion and hotness. hope this will chang in the next eps. It is not so easy to express in another language what you mean but I have tried it.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jul 5, 2015 19:16:28 GMT -5
Since I have watched this ep the first time and I have rewatched it again, I have found that it is not so easy for me to comment about. I do not know so exactly what I should think . I like the scene with the cousellor. The tender touches of VinCat I like the uncertainty and finally what represent VinCat - their love. Love when the cousellor say you both really love eachother and V answers more than anything. It´s so aawww. That´s VinCat S 1. The behavior of Cat I first thought how can she just behave so. After a few rewatches I still do not like it but now I understand her reason. She is so afraid losing V, losing their life together and the threat of Bob and Carol that she act like she act. The only way that is familiar to her - the cop she is. She admit this in the last scene to V when she talk about Bob and Carol. The last scene is great she admits that it is not easy for her to adjust and than his way of distraction LOL great way being distracted. I need to say maybe I am the only one who like it when V moves the quilt over them. It is so intimate and it shows that he excludes the outside world and they are only the two of them. He wants the focus on the two. The case of the week - well....... I do not reallly understand the behavior of JT and the relationship between Tess and JT doesn´t make sense for me. All in all this ep was not what I was expected and hoped but it was ok. VinCat relationship will become more and more what a relationship need to be grounded on love and trust. Still it is too little VinCat passion and hotness. hope this will chang in the next eps. It is not so easy to express in another language what you mean but I have tried it. I understand exactly what you mean. In fact, you helped me understand something that had me puzzled as well. I didn't like the way Cat was behaving in the beginning. It was out of character and didn't make sense to me why she should be so obsessed with this case. But your explanation makes perfect sense, I had never thought about it like that before.
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Post by pippin on Jul 5, 2015 20:17:06 GMT -5
Since I have watched this ep the first time and I have rewatched it again, I have found that it is not so easy for me to comment about. I do not know so exactly what I should think . I like the scene with the cousellor. The tender touches of VinCat I like the uncertainty and finally what represent VinCat - their love. Love when the cousellor say you both really love eachother and V answers more than anything. It´s so aawww. That´s VinCat S 1. The behavior of Cat I first thought how can she just behave so. After a few rewatches I still do not like it but now I understand her reason. She is so afraid losing V, losing their life together and the threat of Bob and Carol that she act like she act. The only way that is familiar to her - the cop she is. She admit this in the last scene to V when she talk about Bob and Carol. The last scene is great she admits that it is not easy for her to adjust and than his way of distraction LOL great way being distracted. I need to say maybe I am the only one who like it when V moves the quilt over them. It is so intimate and it shows that he excludes the outside world and they are only the two of them. He wants the focus on the two. The case of the week - well....... I do not reallly understand the behavior of JT and the relationship between Tess and JT doesn´t make sense for me. All in all this ep was not what I was expected and hoped but it was ok. VinCat relationship will become more and more what a relationship need to be grounded on love and trust. Still it is too little VinCat passion and hotness. hope this will chang in the next eps. It is not so easy to express in another language what you mean but I have tried it. I understand exactly what you mean. In fact, you helped me understand something that had me puzzled as well. I didn't like the way Cat was behaving in the beginning. It was out of character and didn't make sense to me why she should be so obsessed with this case. But your explanation makes perfect sense, I had never thought about it like that before. Someone on here made the comment somewhere that they thought V was being too laid back considering Bob and Carol had tried to kill them. I can see that, and in real life if a super assassin tried to kill me, I don't think I'd be so quick to forget about them and return to my regular routine just because they hadn't tried to kill me again in 2 weeks. That said, I think V and C are displaying the same characteristics they always have. From the beginning, Cat has been obsessive and stubborn, but very proactive --determined to save people and catch the bad guys. JT and Vincent couldn't scare her off, she got herself suspended back in the 3rd episode because she believed Iris was innocent, and was always trying to save whoever, Vincent, Evan, Tess. Vincent was usually written as more passive and prone to avoiding getting involved. He saved people if he happened upon them and that is in keeping with his chosen profession. He saves people as a doctor but as a passive recipient. At first I was thinking that the writers were just searching for ways to created some conflict between VinCat, but now I think they are working with the characters established traits. I agree that Cat is more desperate in her attempt to find these bad guys because she does see them ultimately as a threat to Vincent.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 5, 2015 20:47:01 GMT -5
THis is the first episode where I didn't want to rush down to the office to review or add comments. I have tried all weekend to figure out just WHY that is. Because there were many things or moments that I enjoyed about the episode. I DO want to make that clear before I go on.
First up: Catherine's behavior.
---I practically put my head in my hands as I knew what my fellow Beasties would undoubtedly say about Catherine based on this episode. Like Ebeline, I still felt this was SO CAT--and by that I mean that whenever backed up against the wall, Catherine feels that if she ATTACKS THE PROBLEM like a case, she can figure it all out, solve it, and get the bad guys where they belong. Thus, SAVING the good guys. So her heart is always in the right place, but her actions often get misinterpretted, her friends get seemingly pushed aside, and there is no stopping her. Cat so DESPERATELY needs to allow others to shoulder the burden with her, but for that to occur, the others NEED to have more FAITH in her--because folks, Catherine has ended up being RIGHT time and time again, just as she was in episode #3 of the first episode. And "Ancestors," and numerous other times as well. But still, the way she goes about it makes it hard to champion her ultimate victory, because it always seems to occur over the feelings or corpses of others. Which is where the problem is.
As Elliot Burch once said to the original Catherine Chandler, "Are you always so sure you're RIGHT?" Catherine does end up solving the case, even if she did get it wrong as to Stephen McHattie's character. (BUT HEY, as a lover of the original 80's BATB, I LOVED that they had KK's Catherine nearly cause the original Gabriel's heart attack!) So although Cat is RIGHT to continue to pursue the matter, the feeling of wrongness in the way she goes about it often has you wanting to throttle her. Because sooner or later (probably sooner), she IS going to get it wrong and suffer for it. However, I would still prefer a detective like Catherine. She won't give the matter up, no matter what it may ultimately cost her, in order to get justice. If the old man HAD caused the girl's death, Catherine would have made SURE that he did not benefit by getting her heart. To many people quit championing the cause of the righteous because it is too hard or will cost them too much. So I love that Catherine is all along determined to follow it through to the end.
And even AFTER the counseling session, Catherine can't completely let it go. Her INSTINCTS once again won't stop niggling her that she has missed something. And that "something" ultimately saves the guy's life. So I remain "GO CATHERINE GO!!" even though I feel uncomfortable about it at times. Because she could have so easily been wrong, and it would have cost her everything.
--The Heart of the Problem:
And there it is. The real heart of the problem. Had Catherine been wrong, she would have lost everything. And she likely would have cost Vincent everything as well. Also Tess. And that is where you have that bad feeling about Catherine--others would have gone down with her, because she was so sure she was right and that her instincts were better than everyone else's.
And that is what bothers me. It also bothered me in Season 1 when Catherine pushed Vincent so hard initially (think ballet episode -102) to come forward so that an official investigation could be opened. We all know how that would have ended. Catherine ignores that, and she really doesn't fully realize the evilness that is Muirfield AND the fact that sometimes pursuing justice might actually NOT be worth it if everyone dies UNTIL the end of episode 104. And you see how THAT ends--with the deaths of a cell of Muirfield. And Catherine looking back at JT and Vincent having to clean up the bodies. KK played that beautifully---her face is so HAUNTED and unsure and insecure there. She CAN'T help but seem to wonder if she has chosen the right side in the end when it has led to execution. But there was no other way. And no justice for some people, because of the worse horror that can be caused from the pursuit of such things. Catherine WAS so sure she was wrong, only to realize that it is far more a case of a gray area, and that the victim (Vincent) has a SAY in how his own case should be handled. Which Catherine ignored and nearly got him killed as a result.
So that is my first post for this one. I just felt unsettled, for lack of a better term, by Cat's behavior. Even though I understood it. And even APPLAUDED it in the end, because she WAS right. But she could have so easily been wrong. And would it have been worth it to ANYONE else, had she lost everything because of it?
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 5, 2015 21:11:28 GMT -5
Next up: that whole counselling thing.
--First up, I actually loved the scenes. And Saul as the therapist. Just thought they got the whole thing wrong.
Because the problem is NOT that Vincent and Catherine are losing each other individually into the couple as a whole. I would say that the whole PROBLEM is that Vincent AND Catherine are still being the individuals we've known all along RATHER than forming a true coupleship that has been promised since the beginning.
Vincent has ALWAYS wanted to ignore the problems until they literally blow up in his face. That was true in Season 1 and 2. It was what made Vincent the PERFECT candidate for Bob Reynolds: he really DOESN'T want to question orders--just do the job as set out before him.
Vincent wants his life to be simple. If it looks like a peeled slice of apple on his plate, then it is an apple. Until Catherine actually distrusts what she sees, bites into the thing, and discovers it is really a pear. Vincent would then be mad that she opens up a whole set of variables in wondering why someone would deliberately deceive someone with a pear instead of an apple. And be determined to get to the bottom of it.
So Vincent TO ME is the same as he has always been: avoid the problem, and it won't be there or won't get you. Which has never really worked out for him AT ALL--again, think Bob Reynolds. Catherine demanded he investigate that whole thing from the get-go and question everything. But Vincent refuses until he is literally nearly blown up. Then the inherrent rage from being deceived blows up in proportion with how long the wrong has gone on. So you have that whole thing apparent here. WHICH MEANS THAT Catherine will NEVER have the support or trust or faith that she needs from her partner. AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE PROBLEM to me, NOT some co-dependency.
And Catherine, as well, isn't supportive of Vincent anymore than he is of her. She goes off on her quest, bullying straight through others who aren't strong enough for the attack in the first place. And YES, she may be right in the end, but as I said last post, she could have easily been wrong. So Vincent is right in his caution, but wrong with the lack of support or maybe simply trying to find another way and pace to Catherine's.
I felt for Vincent with Catherine not being able to let go of the case long enough for a simple date night. She makes it about the case, which naturally hurts Vincent. But had he MADE TIME for the case in the first place, she wouldn't have needed to go that far. And might hopefully have been willing to listen to his input instead of running roughshod over it.
So I thought the therapist was DEAD WRONG in assuming VinCat had "co-dependency" issues. These two NEED to become more co-dependent, not LESS so! To me, their individual flaws are rearing their heads in the SAME WAYS as previous seasons. AND BY THIS TIME, the two of them HAVE LEARNED BETTER!
So that is what is bothering me so much! These two have been over these same paths before and supposedly should have learned way more than I am seeing on my screen. And they love each other WAY MORE than has been shown, PARTICULARLY in this episode. Vincent should be WAY more proactive in searching for Bob and Carol then just taking on more shifts at the hospital. He is leaving himself wide open to being too tired and too uninvolved to be there for Catherine when they DO strike.
So I am TIRED of Vicent's avoidance issues and Cat's pushing him away OR disregarding him entirely in favor of treating life like a case. She may be right in the end, but that certainly wouldn't make me OR Vincent feel better in looking at her corpse when she dies alone at some crime scene because no one listened or thought Catherine was going too far.
And I am rather tired of defending people that seem to learn nothing. They should have turned toward one another AND come up with a plan of attack from the get-go as relates to Bob and Carol. Not pulled this distance, case overload and avoidance JUNK. I thought 222 had VinCat FINALLY learning that they need to work together from the beginning. I did NOT expect Same Problems and an even WORSE way of coping with them!
And the END scene showed that VinCat had really learned nothing from the episode. Vincent is completely blase about the open window when Bob and Carol are a VERY REAL threat. The shot for JT came through the window, as did the one for Agent Thomas. I though VinCat should have been on a sleeping bag together on the floor (or actually out of the apartment, really, until the threat was over). And Catherine just wakes Vincent up about the window, no plan in hand, just keeping him from his sleep. Although it ended the way ANY scene with VinCat should normally go (wink, wink), I still felt they had learned nothing AND not come up with a plan either.
Please don't get me wrong. I will probably later love this episode at season's end when I go back and binge watch. But right now, just feeling actually angry at the writers and the way they are going with VinCat right now.
However, that preview clip was GREAT, and made me feel much better. I KNOW they have an actual REASON for doing things this way, but like Season 2, I am feeling greatly bothered and uncomfortable.
And maybe that is what it REALLY comes down to: VinCat really have NO THRESHHOLD for dealing with regular life---they only ever seem to really come together at their best when directly threatened, on the run and having to figure it out immediately in the moment by necessity. And I think VinCat is BETTER than this and WOULD appreciate a little normal in their lives! Just my two cents worth.
Still love BATB. PLEASE don't let anything convince anyone otherwise. Just saying what DIDN'T work for me and why.
I also felt this episode would get us potentially bashed by critics and fans alike. And I DON'T like having to worry about that for BATB, given how we are ALWAYS struggling on the fence/bubble whatever.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jul 5, 2015 21:19:24 GMT -5
Last comment on this one:
What Catherine needs to ultimately learn ---in George Orwell's famous classic book "Animal Farm," the great and noble horse just vows to "work harder" no matter what is thrown at him. Catherine is like this poor workhorse--she believes if she just keeps piling up cases and never stops working, she will somehow keep the threat at bay. And it just made the horse that much easier to kill, when had he just stopped working and started thinking, he certainly would have been a great RALLYING force for the other animals.
So Catherine, take a lesson from the poor horse. His HEART was in the right place, but he got sent to the glue factory when he worked himself into the ground and was no longer of further use to them. All that seems to be happening is that Catherine seems downright ready for a breakdown or becoming unhinged or unnaturally obsessed. And I STILL think she is right and has good instincts. But running roughshod over everyone ends up leaving her isolated, which almost cost her everything.
Had Catherine ended up in that freezer completely ON HER OWN, she would have been dead. And that is SO Catherine: running right into the freezer with nothing more on her mind than that cooler. Which leaves her COMPLETELY oblivious to the obvious threat: that someone has remained behind and will simply shut the freezer door, problem solved. Or else, shot her in the back while she is focused on the cooler.
So please, dearest Catherine and favorite heroine of mine, PLEASE don't get yourself sent to the glue factory, Animal Farm-style. Work SMARTER, not harder, and WITH your partners and lover. I THOUGHT you had learned this lesson last season. As had Vincent. Clearly, neither of you have learned yet. Do so before you are heads above Bob and Carol's mantleplace.
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Post by ArwenFan on Jul 5, 2015 23:34:15 GMT -5
But this is what Catherine claimed she wanted as well. Wasn't that her mantra all last season?
This is where I chafe at Catherine's behavior. Catherine wasn't 100% right. She accused an innocent person of being involved in a conspiracy that killed another innocent (which he wasn't). She wasn't even willing to entertain the idea that Vincent could be right about Zalman. She upset the man to the point that he had another heart attack. Her aggressive interrogation really bugged me. It wasn't the time or place and she had no proof just her suspicion. Catherine's heart being in the right place isn't enough to excuse or justify her treatment of others when she's on a case. I believe this is going to bite her in the ass big time because it's been pointed out in practically every episode.
Vincent has every right to expect a date to be just a date (especially after non-stop activity on the "case") without Catherine twisting his reasoning or being a major B about it. Who is she that Vincent should always cater to her demands and behavior, but she is never expected to reciprocate? Why can't she trust his judgment when he says slow down, consider another alternative? I haven't been this singularly annoyed with Catherine's selfishness since she stole Vincent's picture of his army buddies in Season 1.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 8:18:10 GMT -5
I would not say her purpose of being in the show is that of an eye candy though she is a beautiful girl. the aim is to add lightness to the show and she has served as a plot mover in the past - maybe not this season yet. but her more "immature" attitude is purposeful and something I personally enjoy -- not all characters in a show need to be fully rounded Yeah, I understand she has her moments but, for the most part, I find Heather an irritating character. But, I'm easily irritated so admit to (possibly) not being able to understand the full depth of this character. Regardless, her contribution to this episode was perfect......in my opinion.
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