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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 14, 2016 12:42:48 GMT -5
My hunch is 405 will be similar to SV's Lexmas episode in some ways. Dang it, just spoiled myself again! Fingers crossed for this episode, I hope Dondrea's tweet is right! Please please please BATB gods , just make this episode one to rival the best from S1! How I H-A-T-E-D "Lexmas"!!! Seriously, I loathed it with every fiber of my being! I thought the ending was a powerful portrayal of how very warped Lex Luthor had become. He had a opportunity to see a future of happiness if he turned his life around and followed a path of truth and virtue and love. But instead he chose to continue down a murderous and power hungry path. Lana became an object to control. He never loved her and Clark stood by and watched it all happen. The only story I tolerate going back and seeing "what life would be like if........" is "Scrooge" and "It's a Wonderful Life". If this episode is a "What if Cat had never met Vincent..............." I honestly don't think I will like it. We will see what BATB's take is on the Theme, but I think it is a terrible way to bring back Max Brown for that kind of episode. A truly exciting episode would have been to see if Muirfield "rebooted" Evan and he became a Super Human/ Beast as well. But then again, he may have to die again and that would have been sad. Evan was a good character, I think he deserves a dramatic reboot not a "look back, what if......." scenario. Oh well. I haven't seen 4x03 "Down for the Count" yet. So I hope the episodes are improving so that by the time I see 4x05 I will be able to enjoy BATB. So far I am 50-50 on this season so far. Tell me again how much you liked Lexmas? LOL. Just goes to show how everyone has different tastes. Did you like the SV S6 episode "Labyrinth"? Where Clark is institutionalized in a sanitarium for being delusional about having super powers and Lana is waiting for him to come home to her (instead of being engaged to Lex)? It's another one of those "what if" types of episodes and one that I also liked quite a bit. I guess I just like this kind of episode as it gives the writers a clean slate. It also might give BATB S1 fans (which is all of us) the chance to sort of re-live S1 again (albeit an alternate "what if" version) and bring back some of the emotional feeling the show used to have. But only if they do it right. And if they do it right, this episode could be potentially pivotal for the rest of S4. Anyway, I'm with you so far on this season of BATB being 50-50. I liked 401, 402 not so much. Still haven't seen 403 yet either.
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Post by bbatb on Jun 14, 2016 12:53:35 GMT -5
I think one of the problems with the show's story from the beginning was by making Muirfield so active and killing Evan and her father, it makes Cat and Vincent seem very selfish. Unless you don't love anyone else, would you date someone if you knew being around them would put all of your friends and family at risk. I thought one of the storylines they could have done was to have Heather call out Cat for being responsible for their father's death. It also would have tied in nicely to those scenes they should have left in the pilot between Heather and Cat. Even when Evan was killed, the subway scene was nice as far as the acting, but the emphasis on stopping Muirfield seemed to be more so that they could be together rather than that Muirfield had killed her mother, Evan, all the soldiers, etc. which was especially odd for someone who was a cop. Much as I enjoyed Fake Date, that scene where they are willing to let Gabe get away with murder, and of a witness Cat promised to protect, as long as he doesn't expose Vincent, was even worse.The highlighted sentence resonnates with me pippin. I too enjoyed Fake Date when I first viewed it, but on second and third (+) watch the problems with it started to show glaringly. It starts with Catherine saying to Vincent when telling him about G.'s condition: It is only bothering me because I know it will bother you. Huh? What? It does not bother her to go on a date with a known murderer??? A man who had just murdered and incinerated Jack Watson! I can understand WHY she is doing it, but the dialogue is horrendous. It makes her seem callous AND stupid, especially after she promised Jack to protect him! Same toward the end where G. is handcuffed to his bed and Catherine launches into this stupid speech about going on this date with an open heart - not a romantic one - but one who tried to find the man he used to be, but that man is gone. What a crock of horse manure: she knew he was a murderer (several times over in fact), so how can she say that she tried to find the man he used to be? THAT dialogue was really really bad and I have a hard time believing that it came from Sherri and Jennifer.
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Post by Suzieq ❤️ Beastie on Jun 14, 2016 13:28:49 GMT -5
How I H-A-T-E-D "Lexmas"!!! Seriously, I loathed it with every fiber of my being! I thought the ending was a powerful portrayal of how very warped Lex Luthor had become. He had a opportunity to see a future of happiness if he turned his life around and followed a path of truth and virtue and love. But instead he chose to continue down a murderous and power hungry path. Lana became an object to control. He never loved her and Clark stood by and watched it all happen. The only story I tolerate going back and seeing "what life would be like if........" is "Scrooge" and "It's a Wonderful Life". If this episode is a "What if Cat had never met Vincent..............." I honestly don't think I will like it. We will see what BATB's take is on the Theme, but I think it is a terrible way to bring back Max Brown for that kind of episode. A truly exciting episode would have been to see if Muirfield "rebooted" Evan and he became a Super Human/ Beast as well. But then again, he may have to die again and that would have been sad. Evan was a good character, I think he deserves a dramatic reboot not a "look back, what if......." scenario. Oh well. I haven't seen 4x03 "Down for the Count" yet. So I hope the episodes are improving so that by the time I see 4x05 I will be able to enjoy BATB. So far I am 50-50 on this season so far. Tell me again how much you liked Lexmas? LOL. Just goes to show how everyone has different tastes. Did you like the SV S6 episode "Labyrinth"? Where Clark is institutionalized in a sanitarium for being delusional about having super powers and Lana is waiting for him to come home to her (instead of being engaged to Lex)? It's another one of those "what if" types of episodes and one that I also liked quite a bit. I guess I just like this kind of episode as it gives the writers a clean slate. It also might give BATB S1 fans (which is all of us) the chance to sort of re-live S1 again (albeit an alternate "what if" version) and bring back some of the emotional feeling the show used to have. But only if they do it right. And if they do it right, this episode could be potentially pivotal for the rest of S4. Anyway, I'm with you so far on this season of BATB being 50-50. I liked 401, 402 not so much. Still haven't seen 403 yet either. Yes......"Lexmas" was hard to stomach when it aired right before the Christmas season. UGH!!!!!!!!!!! Further it was hard to stomach because Clark and Lana were in a relationship at the time and it was before "Reckoning" which gave us all further HEARTACHE!! Bad memories........No Lie!! Then there was "Labyrinth" which was actually intriguing. Clark was actually being mind controlled by the Phantom and everyone in Clark's Life was manipulated in Clark's mind with different life changes. Clark was considered Mentally Unstable and Violent. The Phantom used Lana to emotionally control Clark and to convince him to have some treatment that would give the Phantom control over Clark's mind & powers. The whole story line was exaggerated especially when the Martian Manhunter was introduced and saved Clark. I thought it was very creative and I love the MM guy! But "Lexmas" was too "real" and "possible" and we all had a sick sense that the writers were going to "GO THERE" with Lex and Lana and they eventually got those two together! Sorry for the Smallville flashback. Back to BATB.................I guess by now, we know Vincent LOVES Cat and that he has said how she is the reason he had hope and that her love is what makes him human. A storyline like this should have been better in Season 2 maybe? It would have given a powerful insight to Vincent's feelings and then when he didn't remember Cat, that maybe those feelings would have so strong and that we would have seen surface once his memories came back. But, Vincent's memories sort of came back and we just assumed they were all back at some point. A bit underwhelming, IMO. Again, such potential strong dramatic storytelling just fell flat.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 14, 2016 23:19:27 GMT -5
BeastieBoy:
I purposefully DIDN'T mention LEXMAS, as I PARTICULARLY and vehemently HATE that episode as well, due to its implications.
But I'll now ADMIT, since you brought the episode up, that THAT is truly where my brain first went when I heard about this episode AND realized that Evan was coming back.
In "Lexmas," Lex actually saw his life as a good guy originally because he made all the right choices, choosing to be influenced by Clark. He then becomes the type of person that the Kents and Lana (insert MAJOR GRUMBLE here---sorry, but I feel about Lex the way I feel about Gabe. In fact, I could tolerate Gabe and the S2 plot better than Lex and Lana together. So that should REALLY tell you something regarding my loathing of all things Lex/Lana!) could love, because he basically lives a normal life that Clark had always wanted.
But Lana dies, and Lex realizes that money (and the power that comes with it) could SAVE her, so he opts to see this as the excuse to choose POWER to give him everything else. NOT realizing that with power comes the INABILITY to truly love. And makes him corruption and evil personified, as well as being a person that Lana could then NEVER love.
So why is "Lexmas" so relevant here and to my FEARS of what Kern may do?
Evan died a HERO, choosing to sacrifice his life so that Catherine AND VINCENT could get away, even knowing that they would remain together. Like Lex, BECAUSE of his acquaintance with Vincent, he actually becomes a BETTER PERSON.
Now, if Evan never met Vincent, Evan MAY (under Kern's leadership, of course) "pull a Lex." He ENJOYS the POWER of Muirfield and of thinking that HE ALONE can protect Cat, since Muirfield would be buttering him up, etc. And Evan could then be responsible for actually falsely leading Cat AWAY from Muirfield, their involvement in Beast-projects, and her mother's murder. So he has actually BETRAYED Cat in every way, even CORRUPTING and FALSIFYING cases that she works for in order to PROTECT MUIRFIELD, all of this done WHILE PURSUING Cat.
So Evan becomes seduced by power and would even then risk CAT later when said power comes under attack from Vincent. So entirely like the LESSONS LEX learned in "LEXMAS." And Evan, TOO, just like Lex, would have supposedly gotten involved with Muirfield in the first place in order to "keep Cat alive," exactly the reasoning of Lex in pursuing power and connections so that Lana won't die. (STAR WARS did this SAME plot as well, unfortunately, with Anakin and Padme.)
So instead of seeing the Evan that "woke up" about Muirfield ALL BECAUSE HE MET AND INTERACTED WITH VINCENT in Muirfield, we see the Evan that took the OTHER ROAD. And THAT will be what Vincent encounters. Which then means that POOR VINCENT will be like Clark in having to TRY to tell Cat that the man she is with is a criminal that has HIDDEN her mother's ACTUAL MURDERERS away from her.
(Again, all of the above assumes that Vanessa still died and yet Cat managed to get away/live.)
Since I actually LIKE Evan and the great SACRIFICE that he made for VINCAT in S1, I DON'T want the above to play out on my screen. BUT if you want the possibility for a REAL TEARJERKER, then let Jay play a heartsick Vincent trying to tell Cat the TRUTH about what Evan has become AND have her reject them and the possibility that they EVER loved one another!! SERIOUSLY, THAT MIGHT BREAK ME as well as poor Vincent!!! Who will be alone and hunted by Evan with Muirfield!
But could just be the heartwrenching TWIST that no one but "Lexmas" viewers would be expecting!
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 14, 2016 23:29:15 GMT -5
And SMALLVILLE references are ALWAYS relevant in BATB-Land, as more than one plot from that series seems to have made its way into the BATB universe. So I ALWAYS tend to look for that possible connection.
And SMALLVILLE tended to cash-in on the "It's A Wonderful Life" premise a number of times, including when Clark lost his memory for a day. Clark actually comes to the conclusion that he WANTS to change certain things that have happened that he can't remember, PARTICULARLY in knowing that HE did something to end his relationship with Lana. And not understanding the NEED to keep secrets LIKE his identity!
So shades of THAT episode are possible for BATB 405 AS WELL, in that Vincent realizes that the way he was thinking about his relationship to Cat is NOT fair to her, as she really DOES love him and want to be with him despite the sacrifices. So HE made the wrong decision, JUST like Clark, to think that ending things with his beloved would make life easier for her.
So I maintain that there WILL be shades of Smallville somewhere in all of this.
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Post by BeastieBoy on Jun 15, 2016 2:30:22 GMT -5
Not to turn this into a Smallville thread, but I also hated when Lana got together with Lex in the real time line, but Lexmas was an exception. Because he was a good guy in that alternate reality and it took place before I had any inkling that Lexana might become a real thing. It was the one and only time that the Lexana pairing worked for me. I was actually more upset with Chloe for pulling Clark away from his plans to spend Christmas eve with Lana. But I really do like that episode a lot.
I have to say that 1x18 Heart of Darkness is quite possibly my favorite BATB episode of all time. So I'm very much looking forward to Evan's return and how this episode all plays out.
While there could be similarities between 405 and Lexmas, there is a key difference. I highly doubt anyone can come between VinCat at this point. So I'm guessing that whatever might happen in 405 will only lead VinCat to love each other even more.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 15, 2016 3:20:39 GMT -5
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 15, 2016 17:02:27 GMT -5
Based on the article, at least PART of the episode will take place in normal/real time (at least it sounds that way, with the appearance of that guy at the precinct). So you have 44 minutes to somehow make this all happen. Typical Kern, trying to get WAY too much covered in a too-short amount of time.
Quite frankly, we just don't KNOW how Evan is appearing. Throwing in another Smallville reference, it could be like S9 or 10 (I can't remember which one at the moment) episode at Clark's Reunion where Milton Fine comes back from the future to remind Clark of all those he has saved and shall save in the future. So you could have Vincent INJURED, or otherwise in a coma, when Evan appears to him as the Angel-that-needs-his-wings by getting Vincent to see the value in his life. So Evan would be his "guide" to seeing Cat and JT and what their lives would be like.
Still, if Vincent never became a Beast, he couldn't have saved Cat. And I just don't see HOW she would have survived that night. Because the Vanessa/Muirfield stuff would have happened whether Vincent became a soldier or not.
Most likely, it would make sense for this episode to play out as follows in 1 or 2 ways:
#1--Everything starts out looking grim for VinCat, and it appears they have no choice but to try to escape/go into hiding. And Vincent gets injured, forcing him into unconsciousness/temporary coma where he "dreams" that Evan appears to him, telling him he HAS to fight to regain consciousness so he won't die. And Vincent responds that his dying would be best for Cat and JT. And Evan basically then offers to test the theory by showing Vincent what life would be like for Cat and JT if Vincent either never returned from Afghanistan and was presumed dead OR (and here is what I WOULD LOVE TO SEE) Vincent RETURNED from Afghanistan WITHOUT ever having contacted JT. SO HE STILL SAVED CATHERINE when Muirfield agents had killed her mother, BUT he thereafter went into hiding by himself.
Of course, in the above scenario, Evan COULD have still DIED trying to HELP Cat find her mother's killers. So Cat is CONSUMED by guilt. And she has never had anyone to share her burden and is bitter and alone. SAME with JT. And BOTH feel without a REAL PURPOSE in life.
Evan then points out to Vincent that there is more to life then simply existing. That Cat and JT are simply existing without purpose without him in their lives. That Vincent has shaped both of them (and they shaped him in return) and made one another better people with JUST CAUSES, willing to sacrifice to make the world a better place.
Still, the above ALONE does not seem reason enough to convince Vincent. I think it is more likely to play out that unprotected, JT stumbled onto what Muirfield had done to Vincent and tried to go to the police (and met Cat that way). Muirfield then targets BOTH Cat and JT and then kills them both, as they have no one vested in protecting them. And as isolated as they were, no one even seems to be any closer to realizing Muirfield had anything to do with.
#2--Second possibility is reflected in my above email where Evan's deal with Muirfield causes him to become evil and corrupt, and his cover-ups of various Muirfield stuff ends up putting Cat in danger still, when she becomes suspicious of the organization (maybe catches Evan in the act).
STILL, the above isn't quite "It's A Wonderful Life" enough---you HAVE to have the GUIDE to the what-if scenario, and Evan would be the best bet for that. And since BATB is JUST supernatural enough, you have Vincent awaken and later find SOME evidence that Evan really DID come to him during his unconscious time and now can move on or "get his wings." So Evan and Vincent wuold have helped each other once again.
Either way, I wonder if Vincent will be able to interact with Cat in the world-that-never-was. If THAT Vincent had been in hiding all this time, he would have to try to convince Cat that he WAS the one that had saved her AND always wanted to meet her.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 15, 2016 17:09:20 GMT -5
Now THERE would be an interesting scenario: Evan shows Vincent what life is like for Cat and JT without him (again, Vincent would have still saved Cat back in the day but thereafter gone into hiding alone, never telling JT that he had lived). Vincent remains unconvinced, and Evan seemingly "leaves" Vincent to exist on his own in this new reality WITHOUT his beast powers, as he would have "woken up" de-beasted.
So Vincent WOULD then try to approach Catherine to get to know her as a human. BUT when Cat gets too close to Muirfield, Vincent WON'T be able to save her (or JT) and has to watch them die. He THEN pleads for Evan to come back and give him his original life back. THAT would be more "It's A Wonderful Life"-esque.
So most likely, Evan is the "angel" guiding Vincent, not actually alive in an alternative world without Vincent. Because otherwise, it just seems like an Alternate Universe type of thing more than "It's A Wonderful-Life."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 2:41:11 GMT -5
Now THERE would be an interesting scenario: Evan shows Vincent what life is like for Cat and JT without him (again, Vincent would have still saved Cat back in the day but thereafter gone into hiding alone, never telling JT that he had lived). Vincent remains unconvinced, and Evan seemingly "leaves" Vincent to exist on his own in this new reality WITHOUT his beast powers, as he would have "woken up" de-beasted. So Vincent WOULD then try to approach Catherine to get to know her as a human. BUT when Cat gets too close to Muirfield, Vincent WON'T be able to save her (or JT) and has to watch them die. He THEN pleads for Evan to come back and give him his original life back. THAT would be more "It's A Wonderful Life"-esque. So most likely, Evan is the "angel" guiding Vincent, not actually alive in an alternative world without Vincent. Because otherwise, it just seems like an Alternate Universe type of thing more than "It's A Wonderful-Life." I can only QUOTE ALL you've said !!!
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Post by ebeline on Jun 16, 2016 4:57:00 GMT -5
The show would have been better if they had Beasties set as writers. Both options sound good alwayscrazedbatbfan. Let's see how it will be.
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Post by alwayscrazedbatbfan on Jun 16, 2016 14:28:31 GMT -5
I still can't help but be excited about this one. Jay and KK have proved before that they can play really emotional scenes, such as Vincent realizing her CAN'T save Cat (or JT). And Vincent pleading for his life back. Or pleading with Cat to give him a try and get to know him all over again when she doesn't know him. And telling her what she told him--they are ALWAYS destined to fall in love with one another. So this could be a real tearjerker, if done right.
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Post by Jewels on Jun 23, 2016 21:43:46 GMT -5
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Post by runner12batb on Jun 24, 2016 0:28:34 GMT -5
woww! I'm so excited. Thank you Jewels
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Post by pippin on Jun 24, 2016 1:00:54 GMT -5
extended promo
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